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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 15:07   #1
Marka
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Development of Population and Government

First of all - I really like those new features and I think they have a huge potential to vastly increase the gaming experience.
Second - currently - and I think everyone agrees here - it is too static.
I know it's already been said that both features will be extended for coming rounds.

So why this thread already?
The earlier there is a constructive discussion about features the earlier developers get an idea how players want certain ideas to turn out.
So here everyone should collect their ideas about Pop and Gov and in which way they could influence the game to make it more fun.


Population Size
From what I gather from the manual it is planned that population increase is somewhat randomly decided every few ticks. I don't like this part of the idea. Generally randomness could lead to random winners in the end. Imagine two planets are very close and in the last few ticks one of them gets huge pop growth while the other doesn't which leads to the few more res needed to win.
Any natural population is decided by birth rate and death rate which itself are depending on numerous factors.
How could this work in PA?
First of all we have 5 different races - any of them has different breeding and life cycles. I.e. Terrans get an average of 2 offsprings that life for 80 years (ticks) while insectoid Xandathrii get 100 that life for 5.
So Xans gonna have a very high population quickly while others grow slower (but have more flexible individuals - more to that later).

Other factors would be quality of environment and catastrophic events. Better environment leads to faster breeding and longer lifespans. In game this could be determined by resources you spend to create better breeding conditions (more parks, day cares, health care for Terrans etc...). You start with an average quality of 50. You can spend up to 15% every tick on improving quality which can rise to a max of 100. If you decide to spennd 5% or less quality will drop to 0 where there is virtually no incentive for your population to breed anymore.
Catastrophic events in this setting are simply attacks on your planet (and should be restricted to that) and ships dying.
As we all know that some races get attacked more often there needs to countermeasures - i.e. a bunkers that can protect your population.
Ships dying simply means pilots dying - there would be a fixed numbers of pilots for each shipclass which gets killed when ships get destroyed or stunned (Imagine stunning as a heavy radiation that kills pilots but not electronics - ships fly home by auto-pilot later). This is simply to not hamper Cath even more.


Population Areas
What I am missing in the current area is military personnel. With the above mentioned pilots there is a need to have a part of your population available for military. So if you have 1.000.000 pop - 20% military meaning 200.000 in that branch. Appx. 50% of them should be able to pilot a ship so you have 100.000 pilots. For a fighter (depending on race) you'll need 1-3. For a battleship 500-1000.
If u mismanage your population you won't be able to have a huge fleet either.


Population Research, Construction and Production
A proper population micromanagment if properly thought through and implemented has the chance to replace current static Res, Cons and Prod. Basically the more people you have the faster you research and build and the more ships you can build.
Research is pretty straightforward - 10000 scientist will come to a result quicker than 1000.
Constructions should be handled more flexible than they currently are. Currently it is pretty strange that you pay more the more constructions there are. Cost should be dependant on type of building.
As for the bunkers - each can protect 100k people.
Factories - they really should have a limited production capacity. Each factory has a capacity of 5000 which means 5000 fighters or 50 battleships can be under contruction in a single factory.
No more ditching out of 1000 bs at the same time - unless planet has the capacity to do so - this gonna limit stockpiling options.


Governments
Only a few short ideas here.
There should be more governmental systems (10 maybe).
Governments should have influence on population aswell.
It should be possible to change the Government at the cost of a civil war (5%-20% population decrease depening on how drastic the change is).


Implementation
Population Size depending on Race and Quality of Environment should be fairly easy. The formulas are rather simple.
Military personnel would be more complicated. If you don't have enough pilots left - what happens with unoccupied ships.
New contructions - probably most complicated.
More Governments and impact on population - easy.


That's it from me now. I really want to see turn pop and gov turn into something great (doesn't mean that mine is the way to go). So plz everyone help devs to find a decent solution
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 19:49   #2
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Civtarion?
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 21:29   #3
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Re: Development of Population and Government

This sounds shockingly like the list of plans we have for this year
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 21:59   #4
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Re: Development of Population and Government

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Originally Posted by Kal
This sounds shockingly like the list of plans we have for this year
Now I'm shocked
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 22:45   #5
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Re: Development of Population and Government

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Originally Posted by Kal
This sounds shockingly like the list of plans we have for this year
If they ever get put in the game it'll really shock me
Seriously though i've always liked the idea of population in pa, add a people moral into it & i'll be even more happy
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 22:56   #6
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
If they ever get put in the game it'll really shock me
Seriously though i've always liked the idea of population in pa, add a people moral into it & i'll be even more happy
Well one of the reasons we coded all the population growth stuff for this round, dispite the fact that it serves no purpose yet was to make it easier to do all theese things in the future. In fact some of the population stuff that influences growth rate is currently hidden but in place.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 03:47   #7
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Depending on the governement chosen, there could be a different title added to the ruler name (use abbreviation for the race to gain space on the pages header):
Democracy : President
Feudalism : King
Unification : Comrade
Dictatorship : General

other governments:
- Religious republic : Prophet
- Corporatism : Director
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 08:48   #8
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
Depending on the governement chosen, there could be a different title added to the ruler name (use abbreviation for the race to gain space on the pages header):
Democracy : President
Feudalism : King
Unification : Comrade
Dictatorship : General

other governments:
- Religious republic : Prophet
- Corporatism : Director
shocking - you really are predicting our plans...

We were going to bring gender into it as well though - so King/Queen etc.

One of the reasons its not in this round is a lack of a decent place to put it. I think having to shorten the race name would be a shame.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 09:14   #9
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
We were going to bring gender into it as well though - so King/Queen etc.
I know some players who deserve the title "Queen" whatever the government they'll choose.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 10:06   #10
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Re: Development of Population and Government

lulz.

Regarding what I've thought about population and government, I like the new system. I don't know whether PaTeam thought about revolutions but why not be able to change government? Have it the same as vacation mode, you can't launch fleets, you can't build/research and you can't mine resources. However, you'd need a way of protecting your fleet.

P.S. It seems only feudalism and unification look any good, and the others really have nothing to make me choose them.
P.P.S. Will govt show on scans?
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 10:58   #11
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Personally i find this new addition dull.
If i wanted to play civilization i would do so.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 11:05   #12
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Luckily enough then you can just choose to ignore it.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 12:07   #13
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Can I suggest that a backup is created of the r20 code so when in the future people go "I hate all this new stuff" like players do now, unlike with r3/4/5 code we actually have the code. This could then be run for specials for us old folk.

At what point is this infringing on the Civilisation copyrights for copying?
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 12:13   #14
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Given that inspiration is not the same as copying, I doubt it infringes anything.

P.S. Anyway its our turn to steal things
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 13:01   #15
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Re: Development of Population and Government

didn't know that the game civilization had invented the concept of population and government or had any copyright on it...
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 13:14   #16
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Re: Development of Population and Government

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Originally Posted by Makhil
didn't know that the game civilization had invented the concept of population and government or had any copyright on it...
You have a point there. Just with civ been mentioned so often and so much seeming to have been derived from it I thought it had better be considered.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 16:18   #17
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Re: Development of Population and Government

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
Can I suggest that a backup is created of the r20 code so when in the future people go "I hate all this new stuff" like players do now, unlike with r3/4/5 code we actually have the code. This could then be run for specials for us old folk.

At what point is this infringing on the Civilisation copyrights for copying?
We have copies of all the code since round 14.

You cannot copyright or patent game design/plot ideas. Patents only protect "ways of doing things that would not naturally occur to a normal professional in the field i.e. a genuine new and original idea" - copyright protects the displayed content e.g. the output u see in your web browser is copyright, not the code that produces it.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 17:22   #18
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Re: Development of Population and Government

I really love these new features as well, and really, great post Marka

I also like the idea of changing government, like you mentioned, at the expense of some population too. I think that during the process of a revolution (which should last for a few ticks, like 24? 48? whatever...), no ressources should be gathered, no constructions or ships can be build (that is, all that's in process is simply cancelled), and no research is made (without however resetting the current progress).

Also, linking the fleet size & the population size is probably a good idea, but there is a need there to link also the number of people "employed" on a ship depending on its value, and not only its class.

As for new structures, I also like the idea a lot: healthcare structs, bunkers, and maybe why not Military Training Centers: those could be used to increase the number of people available for ships, but of course that would reduce the effect of the other population on the rest (research, constructions, etc.). To be able to add new categories of structures, it could be necessary to reduce the construction times, and allow more than 150 constructions.

Also, I believe that the research about the number of constructions should be abandonned, and that the number of constructions that a planet can hold should be depending on the population. The problem is: if population dies (landings, structures killed, ships lost, etc.), what happens to the unused structures? An idea could be to simply leave them there, and don't allow any more new buildings until they can be used again. The player should also be able to choose which buildings are used and which are not.

Well, all in all, many ideas, and certainly a great improvement to PA, that I am so impatient to see fully implemented! Great job PA team!

[Edit:]
As for cov ops, these could be dramatically changed too, to go with the new population effects. Also, governement forms could have influence on the cov ops "resistance" & chance of success.

Maybe as well, a "Population Scan"? It would reveal settings of the population on the scanned planet. Maybe this could be a cov op as well, and not a scan.
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