Planetarions maintain/running costs

[Legator]

im just wondering about them. i dont know anything about inet costs etc - so im just wondering.


the ******** guy said once in a thread of me that they are using 6 gigabytes a day.

how much is using planetarion ? and how much does such a line cost ? and what kind of server you need and how expensive is that one ?

pax should have atleast like 4 k planets to make much more fun. and im wondering how high the maintain costs of the game and of the paying are. how many you really get from the money we pay ?

i somehow cant believe that the game is to expensive :/

[Koyochi]

hmm I guess 150$ a month for a server with that requirements

I'm running something myself (its not a game) , its using 4 gig a day , has 2500 accounts , and 90% of the costs are paid by 5% of the members who have some extra options , so 95% of them have a free account. (just to show that I know a bit of what I'm talking about)


Bandwidth is in fact not the limiting factor here, as its not hard to find something with ( 30 * 6) 180 gig per month. Those things go by the hundreds, so 200 or 300 gig is a nice standard bandwidth limit.

All you need to look at is a good processer so it can take the heavy load of all those players doing stuff at the same time.

[Dave]

Very true.
The big issue isnt bandwidth here as we have access to a leased line, so the same ammount is payed no matter how much is used.

We do however frequenly max out our server (Dual 2.4ghz Xeon - 2GB ram), and send load rather high.

[Legator]

what would be the requirements for like 5k players ? and good going servers ?

how expensive would that be ?

[Dave]

I would say that a second server running as a dedicated DB server would increase your player limit to about 10k.

Rough estimates, as I have never reached this stage

[Legator]

well, all of this sounds not that expensive - shouldnt be there a chance to run it different than its ran now ?

i wonder if 2k paid planets arent enough for that + changing the game that way more planets can join......

[JC]

PA went p2p because it was too expensive to run for free. Advertising brought in nowhere near enough money, the whole 'internet bubble' burst and there generally wasnt as much money floating around.

I doubt PA will ever be able to go back to being completely free, but i do agree some sort of new payment system does need to be introduced as the current one isnt working.

[Stew]

I think it would work if it was like Nukezone.
The payers and the free provinces are all together - so it maks it worth playing.
However, for $8 a round u can upgrade ur a/c giving u access to extra searches, nicer features etc. They also have a cap on amount of ppl logged in - if ur a payer ur guranteed to get in.
I think ppl are more likely to play for PA if theres 10k players, rather than 2k, and this is a way to do that.

[Kal]

**********'s payment system is quite good as well.

3 tiers - free gets you the basics,
cheap gets you -1 eta
highest gets you -1eta, sms alerts, wap access

might be mistakes there btw

[Kal]

rofl

SS is edited out by the forums

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by KalVirtus

rofl

SS is edited out by the forums

That's because advertising is bad, mkay?

[Legator]

Originally Posted by JC

PA went p2p because it was too expensive to run for free. Advertising brought in nowhere near enough money, the whole 'internet bubble' burst and there generally wasnt as much money floating around.

I doubt PA will ever be able to go back to being completely free, but i do agree some sort of new payment system does need to be introduced as the current one isnt working.

besides its to quick for me and i dont like only coz of that that much, how is ******** running then ?

i think pa should be able to do the same ?

[JC]

For starters it has a lot less players. I believe Dave somewhere said they are on these forums in the last few days that they are close to the max number of players they can cope with atm. I would guess if it got too many more money would start to become a problem as more bandwidth, servers etc would be needed. Also i dont think Dave pays himself a wage, whereas Jolt have to pay Fudge (and until this week Spinner) for their endless hours of hard work. Not that Dave doesnt do any work for his game, but i would imagine more time is needed to run PA, and hence why its a full time job.

SS was free until it became popular then they suddenly realised they would have to introduce some kind of payment system. The PA clones start off being free but soon seem to realise that PA went p2p for a reason, and that reason is that its not financialy viable to support 3-4k players with no money.


Edit: Out of interest i just went checking up in a few online browser based games that i used to play at about the same time PA was in r4/5. They either no longer exist, or have gone p2p, none of them are free now.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by JC

For starters it has a lot less players. I believe Dave somewhere said they are on these forums in the last few days that they are close to the max number of players they can cope with atm.

Our current limit based on hardware would be around 5000, right now theres ~2500 active accounts, so theres room for growth.

Originally Posted by JC

I would guess if it got too many more money would start to become a problem as more bandwidth, servers etc would be needed.

Bandwidth tends not to be the biggest issue, as when you reach a certain size, your more likely to simply use a leased line of one form or another, where your limit is upload. But at least with that your bandwidth costs are fixed.
Hardware is certainly the bigger issue with game expansion. Past a certain number of players its no longer really possible to run the database on the same server as the game, if you want to maintain optimal performance. So right there is a charge of £1000-4000 for your DB server, depending upon what sort of growth your expecting. No point in buying a cheap DB server if your just going to have to replace it soon.

The way in which Planetarion dealt with servers rather suprised me. Surely it would be cheaper to purcahse half or even a whole rack, and colocate them in a high quality data center. Purchasing a leased line, hiring an office and all of that would surely be over the top, when you could colocate your servers, and have the staff working from home.

Originally Posted by JC

Also i dont think Dave pays himself a wage, whereas Jolt have to pay Fudge (and until this week Spinner) for their endless hours of hard work. Not that Dave doesnt do any work for his game, but i would imagine more time is needed to run PA, and hence why its a full time job.

Of the 6 current administrators (the people who run the game on a day to day basis), none of us have recieved any fiscal reward for our time that we dedicated to the game. As for the ammount of time needed, I would say its probably fairly equal, we all spend a hell of a lot of time dealing with the players, fixing bugs (well thats just me ), and generaly being the public face of ********. One thing in which we have always been commended for is that if we (the admins) are online, we are available to talk to, either about a problem or just for a chat. It always helps.

Originally Posted by JC

SS was free until it became popular then they suddenly realised they would have to introduce some kind of payment system. The PA clones start off being free but soon seem to realise that PA went p2p for a reason, and that reason is that its not financialy viable to support 3-4k players with no money.

I can certainly sympathise with the decision to go P2P, as its either introduce some form of P2P or pay more out of your own wages to support something which gives you absolutely no financial return. Not exactly a hard decision. However, the way in which SS has implemented P2P is certainly far better to the way in which Planetarion did it. SS has not experianced much, if any form of a drop in players (from what I was aware), compared to PA going to 15% of its original size.

[Raging.Retard]

You are all completelu missing the point.

The server/bandwidth costs are next to nothing compared with the human cost of running PA. PA occupied the same time as a full time job for the creators. As a result it needed to fund the creators as if it was a full time job. They have famillies to feed, and a life to have. This is where the money is needed to go.

[Kal]

you are probably right, but its still a good idea to find a way top cut hardware costs through long term investment and to find a way to increase income from both p2p and advertising if needed.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Raging.Retard

You are all completelu missing the point.

The server/bandwidth costs are next to nothing compared with the human cost of running PA. PA occupied the same time as a full time job for the creators. As a result it needed to fund the creators as if it was a full time job. They have famillies to feed, and a life to have. This is where the money is needed to go.

So the lesson to be learned is dont run a game as a business full time...

[Legator]

short resumee - planetarion could survive if people only give a **** about it ? i mean if ******** can handle 5k planets (FFS DAVE MAKE IT FINALLY ONE HOUR TICKS :P) why should pa be able to do the same ?

thats the main question.

[JC]

I'm just guessing here so dont take what i say as gospel.

Back in those days more money was made from ads, where as no you make next to nothing. PA was forced to go p2p because of this sudden drop, and unfortunately this doesnt seem to have made up from the lost revenue from adverts etc.

My guess anyway.

[Karmulian]

the other key cost that is in place(Was in place) for PA, was the cost of employing to full time developers(not cheap)

[Hicks]

Have to say well played to RR and Star Sphere for that costing, I suggested a similer system for Planetarion time and time again in R3/4/5 but Spanner never listerned.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Karmulian

the other key cost that is in place(Was in place) for PA, was the cost of employing to full time developers(not cheap)

I cant imagine that Fudge or Vish ever spent even 20% of their time actually 'developing' - coding.

I know I certainly dont. After the big push to build a game, all you do is bolt on new bits and fix any bugs.

I refer to my old point, about not having full time staff....

[CrashTester]

Originally Posted by Karmulian

the other key cost that is in place(Was in place) for PA, was the cost of employing to full time developers(not cheap)

Maybe if they didnt try to rewrite the entire game every 3-4 months they wouldnt have needed two developers?

[AllFather|away]

Originally Posted by Raging.Retard

They have famillies to feed, and a life to have. This is where the money is needed to go.

Good thing you dont have a life then RR <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

Maybe if they didnt try to rewrite the entire game every 3-4 months they wouldnt have needed two developers?

lol

No, seriously.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Hicks

Have to say well played to RR and Star Sphere for that costing, I suggested a similer system for Planetarion time and time again in R3/4/5 but Spanner never listerned.

SS however was in a completly differnt situation to PA when it had to introduce some form of payment. When payment was introduced there was 180k players of this game (would have been more but 180k was all they could handle and signups were stopped). Now the first pay round had what 30-40k playing, half of which didnt pay (as everyone who paid got a second account activation for free) so could a scheme of paying for extras like SS does really have supported 160k free players, especially with Fifth Season already having some debts from the running of free rounds

[wakey]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

Maybe if they didnt try to rewrite the entire game every 3-4 months they wouldnt have needed two developers?

Oh and PLEASE point me to where the total rewrites happened as i can only see ONE time the game was totally rewritten

[dabult]

SS is afaik being run and hosted by people who literary sits on the server, aswell as controls the bandwidth themselves. The bandwidth is simply 'borrowed' from the company in question where they/he works.
Slightly different from PA.

[CrashTester]

Originally Posted by wakey

Oh and PLEASE point me to where the total rewrites happened as i can only see ONE time the game was totally rewritten

hehe...www.planetarion.com

How many times have we had to wait because something wasnt ready or bugged?

[JC]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

hehe...www.planetarion.com

How many times have we had to wait because something wasnt ready or bugged?

The portal isnt done by the creators its done by a separate Portal team.

A few additions and tweaks to the game is not the same as 'rewriting the entire game'. PA wouldnt have lasted long if each round had been exactly the same with no improvements.

[CrashTester]

Originally Posted by JC

The portal isnt done by the creators its done by a separate Portal team.

A few additions and tweaks to the game is not the same as 'rewriting the entire game'. PA wouldnt have lasted long if each round had been exactly the same with no improvements.

At no point was I referring to the Portal.

Planetarion would have lasted a lot longer if they had overlapped rounds and not gave people the opportunity between rounds to look elsewhere for something to play. All the delays did not help.

From what I saw they tried to produce something entirely different every 4 months or so instead of getting something stable and sticking with it while putting out something with additional features, etc, alongside it.

[Goatsemaster]

Originally Posted by Hicks

Have to say well played to RR and Star Sphere for that costing, I suggested a similer system for Planetarion time and time again in R3/4/5 but Spanner never listerned.

Spinner tried to do SMS warnings, but listened to the whiney gits.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

At no point was I referring to the Portal.

Planetarion would have lasted a lot longer if they had overlapped rounds and not gave people the opportunity between rounds to look elsewhere for something to play. All the delays did not help.

From what I saw they tried to produce something entirely different every 4 months or so instead of getting something stable and sticking with it while putting out something with additional features, etc, alongside it.

Overlapping rounds really isnt possible for this kind of game though, trying to do so requires an additional set of servers so each can be run. And tbh the downtime between rounds was actually welcomed by alot of people. A round of PA is quite a tiring thing to play and the idea of getting a proper nights sleep everynight is just a dream for most players. You need the downtime to relax and regroup for the round following.

As for your other comment I have to ask did you actually play PA, because you seem to be talking about a differnt game. Until PAX no round was completly different to the previous. The core of the game was extreamly stable due to many rounds of refinements and the only changes made were relatvly small upgrades to the game to make it better.

[dabult]

Originally Posted by ******master

Spinner tried to do SMS warnings, but listened to the whiney gits.

* majority

[Raging.Retard]

Originally Posted by dabult

* majority

* majority of forum posting players (representing the 'active' section of PA player base, and also the most price inelastic. It is of my opinion that they would have stayed if SMS alerts were introduced).

[CrashTester]

Originally Posted by wakey

Overlapping rounds really isnt possible for this kind of game though, trying to do so requires an additional set of servers so each can be run. And tbh the downtime between rounds was actually welcomed by alot of people. A round of PA is quite a tiring thing to play and the idea of getting a proper nights sleep everynight is just a dream for most players. You need the downtime to relax and regroup for the round following.

As for your other comment I have to ask did you actually play PA, because you seem to be talking about a differnt game. Until PAX no round was completly different to the previous. The core of the game was extreamly stable due to many rounds of refinements and the only changes made were relatvly small upgrades to the game to make it better.

Yep, I have played PA since round 1 (missed a round or two late on though).

We were never given any definate timeframe for each round to begin and end, which should have been in place. 3 rounds per year at 4 months each would have been a good start and the game should have been designed so that all constructions/research was completed in its quickest time in about 6 weeks leaving the remainder of the round for some serious battles.

With no set end it gave people who were doing badly no reason to stick around babysitting a dying planet, so they probably looked elsewhere. With no set start date, you probably lose a few more.

In their attempt to ensure each round was presented with something new, it caused delays and made people unhappy. It would have been far better to have run a stable game that looked good consistently while running another alongside it with enhancements (they must have been able to do it in the same way the beta was done) but if they really couldnt then the current round shoudl have simply been reset in a matter of days after the end of the previous round without any changes.

I believe the delays and inconsistence gave more people an excuse to leave than not having new features and time to rests etc gained.

[DrunkenViking]

Originally Posted by Stew

I think it would work if it was like Nukezone.
The payers and the free provinces are all together - so it maks it worth playing.
However, for $8 a round u can upgrade ur a/c giving u access to extra searches, nicer features etc. They also have a cap on amount of ppl logged in - if ur a payer ur guranteed to get in.
I think ppl are more likely to play for PA if theres 10k players, rather than 2k, and this is a way to do that.

I'll have to agree with you stew, right now nukezone has much more spark than planetarion.
Giving several more features to the paying players(not anything necessary tho, only luxury features) and ofc the limit of users logged on at the same time(except for the paying users who'll have access 24/7)
btw Stew, how's Spora?

[dabult]

NZ roxxors my boxxors

[Gerbie]

When PA was for sale after round 8 I asked around what it would cost me to operate. The main problem was getting the support staff. Even without major changes to the game fixing the bugs and keeping it running (24/7!) would cost a lot of manpower, especially if PA team would not have been willing to support in this. I expected PA team would want to get payed and my list of volunteers was a bit short. Without time and knowledge how to run the game myself it would become a costly affair. I might have been able to get enough income to pay the bills+people, but even that would be tricky. Let alone if I had to pay a good amount of money for PA (as Jolt did).

Debts were already present when PA went p2p and the income on the game was just not enough to ever pay them off.