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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 01:37   #1
Rc mayhem
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Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

So anyone else had a look over them yet? So here is my analysis. (Note: I haven't yet actually looked at the Armour and Damage, just int and target class)

Xan FI with the help of CO has the choice of any planet not a cath which seems a little overpowered.
I am a little confused by Ziks. I can only see them been able to hit other Ziks.
Looks like there will be a lot of BS flying around with both Ter and Etd favouring a BS fleet.

With costs 10 times less than pervious rounds it looks like we will be having a return to those huge battles of yester-round.

So what does everyone else think about them? Any more insights?
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 06:11   #2
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Ive just been looking at init/target class and below is my initial impressions:

Terran
DE - can roid Cath with low spiders, Etd with low Brokers.
BS - Own Xan, Own Zik, Own Terran


Cath
Co - Own terran with Fr/Co, can roid cath with low scarab, Owns Xan (with heavy investment in viper), owns Zik with Spiders.
CR - Owns terran, can roid cath with low mantis, Owns Zik


Xan
Fi - Owns Terran (dont need to send Co anymore), Roids cath with low Viper, Roids Zik with Banshee, Roids Etd with low merchant
Fr - Owns Xan, Owns Zik


Zik
Fr - Owns Terran, Owns Zik
De - Roids Cath with low spiders, Etd with low Broker


Etd
Co -Owns Terran, roids Cath with low Scarab
Bs - Owns Xan, Owns Zik


So in summary:

Terran
Can roid: Xan, Zik, Terran
Can sometimes roid: Cath, Etd
Can be roided by: Terran, Cath, Xan, Zik, Etd

Cath
Can roid: Terran, Xan Zik
Can sometimes roid: Cath
Can be roided by: Anyone once they get over the Emp threshold

Xan
Can roid: Terran, Xan, Zik
Can sometimes roid: Cath, Etd
Can be roided by: Terran, Cath, Xan, Etd

Zik
Can roid: Terran, Zik
Can sometimes roid: Cath, Etd and everyone with enough stolen ships
Can be roided by: Terran, Cath, Xan, Zik, Etd

Etd
Can roid: Terran, Xan, Zik
Can sometimes roid: Cath
Can be roided by: Primarily no one, can be roided if have low merchants/brokers
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Last edited by Kileman; 24 Feb 2011 at 22:27.
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 07:06   #3
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

So edt has gone form uber in attack to uber in defence?
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 07:28   #4
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Looks like it..... If you send enough fi or de against them you can get through with 0 losses. This may be very easy based on the efficiency of the ships which I cant be bothered calcing out
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 10:18   #5
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Xan anti cr sucks.

Thanks to drakes having lower init than the Ghost it makes the Ghost pretty useless.

Xan anti bs isnt so bad, still not truly worth it but may be good enough to build just to get attention off you.
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 10:42   #6
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Xan anti cr isnt too bad. It has same init as Roaches, so means losses both sides.

Ghost may be useless in defending against Terran De, but thats what Phantoms are for, which have a lower init than pegs.
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 11:20   #7
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

humm looking at the stats ziks and ter look screwed
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 18:56   #8
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Ter BS owns i think youll find koks
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Unread 28 Mar 2007, 19:38   #9
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

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Originally Posted by Koks
the stats look screwed
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 11:48   #10
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Thumbs up Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Sound changes if u ask me...
R20 was all about attack, a little change is in order...
Banshee is CO :crymeariver:
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 11:54   #11
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

and one more thing...
for example a Xan can cap a roid with 25 Illusions (cost 775/775/775)
Dont u think roid armour should be at least 500?
I know the stats are preliminary, but just to mention
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 12:27   #12
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaro
Sound changes if u ask me...
R20 was all about attack, a little change is in order...
Banshee is CO :crymeariver:
how is the current set NOT all about attack?
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 12:30   #13
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Each race can defend stuff that it was shit at defending before, like shadows versus bs. Xan have nothing as shit as that now, do the other races?
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 12:32   #14
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

i haven't been through the stats, because a quick look at them made me realise 5 things:

1) the increased armour and damage per costs doesn't realistically add anything to the game because the same efficiencies are being used as always. just divide them by 10, and you get the regular dpc/apc values. (e.g. harpy at 583 416 is actually 58.3 41.6) - the repercussions of this are simple. Instead of killing or losing 10 ships in an attack you will lose/kill 100. The only thing this adds to the game is more ships and the idea in your mind that they are more 'expendable.' Pointless imo.

2) There are 3 basic points to making stats that work. you make sure that every ship has a use, that there is at least one ship which can be used to defend any class of any race within its launch eta, and that every roiding fleet has at least one if not two options for some roids. from first glances and looking what people have said above, this doesn't seem like the case.

3) The efficiencies of roiding ships are inconsistent to their race and class, and overall inconsistency is rife between Pod Class ships:

Name, Class, dpc, apc, tpc
Illusion Fighter 322 215 537
Mosquito Corvette 421 184 605
Rambler Corvette 480 266 746
Vampyre Frigate 333 227 560
Privateer Frigate 416 177 593
Demeter Destroyer 600 150 750
Ironclad Destroyer 448 189 637
Hornet Cruiser 515 151 666
Leviathan Battleship 612 147 759
Baliff Battleship 392 151 543

Were the numbers plucked from the air? God knows. Sort it out.

4) Why is there not a field that says 'guns needed to stun' or empres/cost or 'cost per gun'. This is important - especially when you're changing the dpc and apc so drastically. (don't preach at me about how to work it out myself - i'm asking for the general/new player)

5) Nobody cares what I think except those who know me (via my alliances) and know that what I'll produce for their alliance when stats are final will be of use. Plus, ultimately, I'm not going to waste my time analysing these stats when they're blatently going to change A LOT over the next few weeks - if they don't work on paper why would they work on practice.


Like I said, I'll look at stats and lobby for changes when they're 'final' and then I'll be ignored - proving that nobody who knows what they're doing will actually know what they're doing. Ultimately, it's all pointless. My analysis and sugestions for change will be released a day after they are final.

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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 13:00   #15
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Haven't really looked through all of it.
Yet one things jumped into my eye - the Baliff.
Cost of most expensive flak: 4800
Cost of the pod: 7900

This is exactly the same error that allowed Etd to be the XP whores they been last round - losing most of their fleet while still be able to cap full. Practically means immunity vs stun ships aswell.

Never ever make pods that more expensive (15% +) than their flak.
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 21:34   #16
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Do ziks still die stealing?
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 22:09   #17
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

yea they do
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 17:27   #18
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
Like I said, I'll look at stats and lobby for changes when they're 'final' and then I'll be ignored - proving that nobody who knows what they're doing will actually know what they're doing. Ultimately, it's all pointless. My analysis and sugestions for change will be released a day after they are final.
do you know why they are final?


also in my opinion these are an OKAY set of stats, and far better than last rounds, though that doesn't say much.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 17:51   #19
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

[17:46:34] <tuxed0> to be fair, these are (on paper) not horrendous stats, but i'll wait till they're final and see what needs looking at then
[17:46:48] <tuxed0> they've made it pretty clear they dont want my help, so i'll just bitch about it later ;D
[17:47:04] <Mithrandir> rofl

yeah i know jerome, but they're not gunna listen to anthing i say now, so i'll just whinge about it later - but like i said, they're not horrendous.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 18:54   #20
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Imo Terran could need some work done atleast
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 00:33   #21
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Terran are awful, mayve almost workable. but thank **** your not using stats that are anything to do with " Blue Moon", id actually cry then
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 20:51   #22
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

dont whine about the ter stats, its the perfect xp-race for the coming round
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 21:59   #23
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh
Terran are awful, mayve almost workable. but thank **** your not using stats that are anything to do with " Blue Moon", id actually cry then
How about using R18 stats? That set was originally made by tux, found utterly poo, then improvements were implemented through a shout contest on a private channel of a certain alliance. They weren't "horrendrous", but simply not "good" either.

There's been better sets.
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 22:46   #24
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Xan stats are horrible.
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 23:04   #25
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Xan stats are horrible.
I thought Xan looked best...
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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 02:59   #26
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
How about using R18 stats? That set was originally made by tux, found utterly poo, then improvements were implemented through a shout contest on a private channel of a certain alliance. They weren't "horrendrous", but simply not "good" either.

There's been better sets.
edit: drunk and a little upset, ill re-read this in the morning

people forget that the round 18 stats weren't horrendous, and were the last truely value-based stats we've had. personally i got extremely frustrated because my stats weren't my stats in the end, so i'll set the record straight one and for all...

i will admit that near the end i was asking in the exilition private channels (and several other alliance channels - subh and f-crew and a couple more i cant remember) for dc's opinions on the stats as i am a very attack-minded player. perhaps that was wrong of me, but i needed to ask the people who would be dealing with the defensive stats on a day to day basis - and people who could look at the stats in a defensive frame of mind. (people like nitina for example)

before i left on holiday (unplanned surprise from my father so it wasnt my fault for commiting to something that i couldnt complete) xan had fi/de fleets, and when i checked back in after about 3 days they magically had fi/fr fleets - with the xan fr being pretty much useless (beyond repair). as a result the anti-fr fleets were changed, meaning that the zik fr fleet became so crap that the only way to fix it was to make it a pure kill fleet, which wasn't what it was for and goes against the essense of zik.

then, literally 10-15 people were in my pm EVERY DAMN DAY (i have logs) whinging for the pulsar init to be lowered so it shot before the pegasus and to keep traditional aspects of the game the same (e.g. all xan inits between 3 and 6, cath kill inits at 10, etc...), but the pegasus was already having its own problems because the only zero-loss anti-ter de became the terran harpy, meaning the more terrans in the universe, the more anti-terran fleets there would be which negated the whole idea. the lack of a changes log book also made it impossible for me to catch-up on all the changes that had been made while i was away, and subsequently i had to waste 3hours doing a complete re-analysis --- before appoco removed my stats-editing access making it impossible for me to make the changes that were needed.

oh my god..... not to mention the problems everyone had with the joke-name 'perriwinkle' - obviously it was going to change, but so many people made such a big deal about it that i almost wanted to keep it the same in the end (hense the Pillager's description being along the lines of 'an upgraded periwinkle)

at this point, because i was on holiday and spending more time in the IT lab than the beach i gave up and let appoco and paisley and several others ruin the r18 stats, because they no longer resembled the stats i approached appoco with at the start of the alpha stage and there wasnt enough time to fix them.

so now... i get people like benneh who used to be a relatively good friend slagging me off because i took the lead (and the fall) on a sub-par set of stats on an interefering team who had no idea wtf they were doing, or the reasoning behind several ships and their efficincies - and everyone here gets on the badwagon and negreps me? wtf is that about?

thanks for reducing my years of involvement and contributions to 4 red dots.
my analysis and suggestions for change will come tomorrow.

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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 04:57   #27
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
I thought Xan looked best...
If you don't mind getting easily roided by xan fr, cath cr and both terran and etd bs
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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 09:00   #28
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
thanks for reducing my years of involvement and contributions to 4 red dots.
my analysis and suggestions for change will come tomorrow.
It's very normal for you to defend the set. There were 32 zikonian players in the top50. The direst thing I remember would have been, regarding R18 stats, the zikonian battleships, which included the ability to zero-loss defend, and the ability to trounce and bounce whatever came on their way. Edit. And if you whinge about other people destroying your stats beyond repair, then clearly you had some issues keeping your statistics on the line you intended them to be, allowing other people (f.ex the private channels and people in queries mentioned) to affect you so much.

I made a quick race count regarding round 18. The top100 came with 16 cathaars, 11 terrans, 14 xandathriis, and 59 zikonians. The numbers speak a dire language, and the zikonian counts are far more than what they were for example the round before.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 1 Apr 2007 at 09:06.
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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 10:50   #29
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

screw you guys unstoppable zik made that round awesome :d
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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 18:40   #30
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
I thought Xan looked best...

you also built xan fr last round
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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 19:34   #31
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

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Originally Posted by Ceadrath
you also built xan fr last round
lol. Well yeh and it worked great because there wasn't enough anti FR in the uni.

Look out for more insane fleets now I have taken over the military stuff:P
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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 23:05   #32
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

jesus christ you should not be training new players if you built xan fr as a pod fleet last round
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Unread 1 Apr 2007, 23:35   #33
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Look out for fr whoring and surprise surprise bs too.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 01:38   #34
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
jesus christ you should not be training new players if you built xan fr as a pod fleet last round
I never claim to train new players in attacking - I am one of the least suited in the game to teach it.

I built them after crashing half of my FI fleet and not having time to rebuild them. Because everyone said they were rubbish noone built anti FR (apparation or syren) and I landed about 50-70% of attacks. Seemed to work for me despite what people thought of them without testing. I gained 300-400 ranks (up to 255ish) in the last couple of the weeks due to them.

In short - You were wrong with your analysis and/or I was lucky with the risk I took making an FR fleet. Go figure...
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 06:54   #35
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
In short - You were wrong with your analysis and/or I was lucky with the risk I took making an FR fleet. Go figure...
You were lucky, any frigs any other xan had seemed to die
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 08:53   #36
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
In short - You were wrong with your analysis and/or I was lucky with the risk I took making an FR fleet. Go figure...
you were lucky in the sense that when you attacked someone with fr they probably DIED LAUGHING AT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING ROIDED BY FR WHEN IT COULD ROID NOTHING

and his fleet was out too or something
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 10:30   #37
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
WHEN IT COULD ROID NOTHING
Hmm. All I can say is I enjoyed the roids I got with it. The trick was having enough of it. But that was last rounds stats. We should be discussing this rounds rather than having an ego off.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 11:06   #38
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

i did get roided by xan fr last round.

it was truely horrific
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 16:01   #39
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

i think they look quite promising stats my conclusions were much the same as kilemans.

Id say de looks the weakest shipclass attack wise and etr fi/co combo looks like a winner too
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 16:07   #40
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

How are you supposed to defend against incomings?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 16:23   #41
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

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How are you supposed to defend against incomings?
Spam the attackers or basically get 10 times more than you got incoming. With the bs firing first I see them as a major prob tbh :/. Especially with the terran idea of shoot last but can take hits.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 16:27   #42
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Okay.
To sum up, you pray god(s), or threaten to beat appoco unless he forces a rollback?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 17:23   #43
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

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just to be clear ... tuxed0 rocks and anyone who hates/dislikes him should hate/dislike themselves!
did you read anything keizari said?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 18:26   #44
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Xan fi\co looks extrememly strong. Ters still seem too weak.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 19:36   #45
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

I think the ziks look like crap, it's still 1:1 for them right?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 21:30   #46
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Since new races, ive only ever played Xan, judging by Appoco seemingly hating Xans (The fact they get owned by pretty much everything) Cath CO owns them, Cath CR own them, Terran BS and ETD BS own them, its a disgrace, the best race to go at the moment is Cath, aslong as u build enough of what is needed. but i suck at playing cath, i hate low etas, i just hate everything, this sucks!
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 22:37   #47
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Cath like usual looks might fine, problem is all the bloody incoming
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 22:44   #48
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

someone negreped my comment, when I sayed people shall not complain about weak ter as they are an excellent xp-race for coming round.

My negreper said they want improvement.

Now if you improve an excellent xp race by strengthening their defence, this might be an inprovement for ter, but not for the race-balance fs
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 22:50   #49
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Whyare they such a great xp race. There is loadsa of anti bs\de around
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 23:08   #50
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Re: Beta/Provisional R21 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
Since new races, ive only ever played Xan, judging by Appoco seemingly hating Xans (The fact they get owned by pretty much everything) Cath CO owns them, Cath CR own them, Terran BS and ETD BS own them, its a disgrace, the best race to go at the moment is Cath, aslong as u build enough of what is needed. but i suck at playing cath, i hate low etas, i just hate everything, this sucks!
yeah xan with the UNSTOPPABLE FI/CO is the underpowered one here ....... especially when every race bar etd is more open to be roided by them..

"HEH"
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