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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 01:10   #51
Yahwe
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
One presumes that if you go anywhere decent you're going to be interviewed anyway and therefore these types of rules (i.e. requiring specific A-Levels) are mainly about reducing the strain on admissions (again, I'm presuming).
why presume? you could always just ask me.

Oxbridge always interviews applicants with the right predicted grades (AAB or AAA). Unless the student evaluation letter (submitted by the school) advises against it.

The point of the press statement is to try and reach students and parents.

It is to try and create a world where from 16 to 18 the intelligent young person has actually been working and been pushed rather than cruising through on easy a levels.

Because the same intelligent young person simply will not cope with another 3 years of incredible stress and academic pressure if they have frttered away their time believing that good grades are easily obtained.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 01:40   #52
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Apparently now we have Polish people coming over to do plumbing and so on, because no one in the UK bothers now.
Yeah I'm not really sure this is true (of course there are skilled immigrants coming to this country). Skill shortages do exist but their exact nature is almost always a projection at best (a guess at worst) and tend to be overhyped by businesses (who don't want the risk of higher wages) and organisations who have a vested interest in selling training courses.

With the specific example of plumbing there was considerable coverage in the media how the severe shortage of skilled plumbers had led to a scenario where plumbers could earn £70-100k (in London). There were even cases where people left city jobs in banking to retrain as plumbers in one of the (many) City & Guilds courses which promised fame and riches if one qualified. From what I've seen of the follow up stories most found this wasn't necessarily the case and their incomes were much more in line with what everyone else receives. Highly skilled plumbers with twenty years experience and a whole list of contacts might be able to make £100k, but this wouldn't necessarily be the norm. It's the same as those stupid adverts which promise £30k+ jobs after an eight-week IT course (no experience required!)

There are of course gaps in construction which are being filled by skilled workers from Eastern Europe, but a lot of this gap can be attributed to the scale of property-related boom especially in the South East.
Quote:
Our builder had an apprentice when he was here earlier this year, but he says there's not a huge amount of them around any more and this apprentice still wanted to go and do lots of courses at college.
We have an apprentice and we're trying to get two established in housing management but yes they're not very common. I don't think they really "fit" anywhere. The pay is often laughable and so someone might find they still have to live at home (or rely on parental support) while having to deal with all the inconveniences of working full-time. Might as well choose to go to the University of ex-Poly, get into masses of debt, develop alcoholism and sleep with whatever you can (at least, this is what the adverts seem to promise).

I'm also not sure where the idea of a "trade" fits into modern patterns of employment anyway. In the past you might have had (or expect to have had) a single job (or career type) for a lot longer. Now people seem to shift from job to job (and even from field to field) much more quickly. Where we will have skilled careers there's either existing protocols/institutions (medicene and law I guess) or are relying on some sort of hobbyist "life time training" as with IT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
then maybe you should get out more
Perhaps. I suspect when I'm out I'm just not moving in the right circles though. I was told English was a girly subject!
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 02:15   #53
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Perhaps. I suspect when I'm out I'm just not moving in the right circles though. I was told English was a girly subject!
yeah blacks should know their place and poofs should be burnt alive!

before you put that white sheet on again take time to remember that you sound like a shit
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 12:25   #54
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
When did you ever interview in the private sector???? How can you pretend to know what questions are asked or what employers want??? I would starve to death if i didn't know what employers wanted. you???? you are merely playing.
What? It's hardly some elite clique of people who have had interviews in the private sector that most of us mere mortals don't get access to. Most of my friends work in the City.

My point was simply that doing a subject such as Business Studies allows the pupils/students to practice presentation and interview techniques, as they're implemented more during class and homework than in other subjects.

Which of course would give them an advantage.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 12:35   #55
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What? It's hardly some elite clique of people who have had interviews in the private sector that most of us mere mortals don't get access to. Most of my friends work in the City.

My point was simply that doing a subject such as Business Studies allows the pupils/students to practice presentation and interview techniques, as they're implemented more during class and homework than in other subjects.

Which of course would give them an advantage.
It's not an advantage if they don't get into a good university because of business studies a level.

It's not an advantage if they don't get the interview because of that.

your logic is childlike
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 13:03   #56
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It's not an advantage if they don't get into a good university because of business studies a level.

It's not an advantage if they don't get the interview because of that.

your logic is childlike
Just because something has disadvantages as well doesn't devalue the advantages. Your post makes no sense unless you actually address his point and try and prove some way in which what he said about interview and presentation practice isn't true.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 13:18   #57
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Just because something has disadvantages as well doesn't devalue the advantages. Your post makes no sense unless you actually address his point and try and prove some way in which what he said about interview and presentation practice isn't true.
You might say that an inflatible dart board is lightweight and easy to carry and I would see no reason to try and prove that it is not lightweight or easy to carry to say that it is flawed.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 13:29   #58
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Re: well worth a read

strawman dude, creating an analogy between things that are incommensurable does not an argument make.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 13:37   #59
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Re: well worth a read

I don't think anyone can argue that education has on the whole been devalued in recent years.

With 25% of A-level students getting an A it's incredibly difficult for universities to decide between students - of course they are going to compare the value of different A-levels.

For example, if two students are predicted AAA and they're going for an Engineering degree. One who has maths physics and photography is possibly going to lose out to someone who has maths physics and history.

A-levels are simply a way of getting into Uni, if they don't get you into uni then they have very little value.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 13:44   #60
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
strawman dude, creating an analogy between things that are incommensurable does not an argument make.
1) A level business studies - may help your interview technique but prevents you attending top university and thus prevents you being asked to interview in first place.

2) Inflatable dartboard - allows you to carry a dart board with you wherever you go but you can't play darts with it because it'll burst.


(I don't know why I dignify you people with a response ... sometimes I wonder if you shouldn't be forced to wear mittens for your own good ...)
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 13:49   #61
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
1) A level business studies - may help your interview technique but prevents you attending top university and thus prevents you being asked to interview in first place.

2) Inflatable dartboard - allows you to carry a dart board with you wherever you go but you can't play darts with it because it'll burst.


(I don't know why I dignify you people with a response ... sometimes I wonder if you shouldn't be forced to wear mittens for your own good ...)
Look up incommensurable please.

Oh, and add ad hominem to your list of fallacies for this thread \o/
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 14:37   #62
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Re: well worth a read

The point is that top universities want the brightest students.

To even suggest that Maths/Physics/Further Maths (which is pretty much beyond an ordinary A level considering it's immeasurably hard) should be on the same level and be given the same value as a subject like Business Studies is silly, as they are far far more difficult.

If you want to do something of that ilk, do Economics instead which is a bit more credible, as I said when I was 17: "Business studies: corner shop, Economics: whole country". Instead of business studies, do some credible A levels and get some business experience if that's what you want to do.

The only 'credible' subjects that are generally quite easy are languages, because those who do languages generally have a talent for them anyway, thus find it quite easy to get good marks.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 14:42   #63
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The only 'credible' subjects that are generally quite easy are languages, because those who do languages generally have a talent for them anyway, thus find it quite easy to get good marks.
Languages aren't easy, they're the most difficult subject in school.

Or at least they were to me, in any case calling one subject easy and another one hard is pretty silly. Different people have vastly differing experiences of each one and factors like teacher skill come into it too, the whole idea of comparing them in general is foolish.*

*Especially if you're going to use such broad terms as "easy" and "hard"
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 14:45   #64
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
1) A level business studies - may help your interview technique but prevents you attending top university
What?

Why would an A-level in Business Studies prevent you from attending a top university?

Sure, in comparison to a "classic" such as Maths, English Lit. or Physics it might look lesser on paper, but I'd hardly say it would prevent you from being accepted.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 14:51   #65
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What?

Why would an A-level in Business Studies prevent you from attending a top university?

Sure, in comparison to a "classic" such as Maths, English Lit. or Physics it might look lesser on paper, but I'd hardly say it would prevent you from being accepted.
I posted this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5277556.stm in my second bloody post!

I don't believe you've read a single thing i've written. You've just been splurging constant and irrelevant trivialities at me ...
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 15:02   #66
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I posted this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5277556.stm in my second bloody post!

I don't believe you've read a single thing i've written. You've just been splurging constant and irrelevant trivialities at me ...

Pity you didn't read the article before quoting it.

"For example, mathematics, French and economics would be a suitable combination for almost any of our degrees.

"Mathematics, French and business would be acceptable, but we would prefer the first example.


Pretty sure that supports MY post?


(also since when was 2 universities out of the 100s that exist a significant number?)
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 15:10   #67
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Pity you didn't read the article before quoting it.

"For example, mathematics, French and economics would be a suitable combination for almost any of our degrees.

"Mathematics, French and business would be acceptable, but we would prefer the first example.


Pretty sure that supports MY post?


(also since when was 2 universities out of the 100s that exist a significant number?)
It's the first ever public statement of what we all know.

They deliberately used language such as 'less suitable' because the words '****ing useless' wouldn't be good diplomacy.

Two of the top universities have made this statement. No one else in the russell group has issued a retraction.

you asked how an a'level in business studies can prevent you attending a top university. THIS IS HOW
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 15:13   #68
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Languages aren't easy, they're the most difficult subject in school.

Or at least they were to me, in any case calling one subject easy and another one hard is pretty silly. Different people have vastly differing experiences of each one and factors like teacher skill come into it too, the whole idea of comparing them in general is foolish.*

*Especially if you're going to use such broad terms as "easy" and "hard"
Because languages are more 'specialist' and are generally done by people who 'enjoy' doing them and are actually quite good at them. The number of people who did A level maths at school was scores, the number of people who did German 4. 50% of our class got A's, I'm sure Maths had a lower number. The workload for a language is staggeringly less, as if you did well at GCSE, most of the work has already been done. My teachers in both subjects were excellent.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 15:18   #69
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
(also since when was 2 universities out of the 100s that exist a significant number?)
To be fair it is a lot more than 2. Even when I was applying 3 years ago places like LSE, Cardiff, Bristol etc... were all stating that they preferred more traditional subjects such as Economics and Maths over ones like Accounting or Media Studies. I imagine since then it has become even more prevelant.

Quote:
Shut up furball.
I went to a state school and my subjects included further maths and economics.
You are lucky then. In my area the three main state schools all now offer business studies rather than Economics (I was the last year to do Economics), none offer further maths and philosophy hasn't been offered in quite a while. Hopefully this will chance when they force a 6th form college on them all next year rather than each having their own.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 17:05   #70
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by midge5
You are lucky then. In my area the three main state schools all now offer business studies rather than Economics (I was the last year to do Economics),
That's mainly because Business Studies is more accessible and can be taught to 16-18 year olds at a level which they can relate to.

Being able to talk about production methods (for example) is pretty simple if you just throw in a few real life examples.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 17:20   #71
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Re: well worth a read

I applied to LSE and did get an offer despite studying Business Studies but the offer I got was AAB when other people I know were offered ABB, while I'm sure there were other things that contributed I don't think doing Business Studies over Economics helped me at all. If I had the chance over again I would have done Economics over Business Studies.

My school offered Economics, Further Maths and Philosophy but all were taken in only very small number while things like Business Studies were over subscribed. Why ? I think itís to do with the fact they are perceived as softer options even though I donít think A Level Economics even needs to be at all demanding mathematically, people tend to associate it with maths and would prefer something more vocational like Business Studies. Thatís not to say that I think Business Studies is worthless, a lot of the management theory that we learnt was quite interesting but I think as several people pointed out in the eyes of many recruiters even for companies ďin the cityĒ coming out with even a good degree in a subject like Business Studies is viewed as something of a stigma when compared to people applying with degrees in things like maths or sciences.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 21:00   #72
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
but it isn''t a hopeful sign.
For the benefit of the person who's rep message was "Hopeful for who?"

Do you not speak English? Or, do you not read English? Or, is it just that you don't write English?

When I say that something isn't a hopeful sign it is difficult to answer as to who I was saying it was hopeful for. However, if that is really what your question was then I would say it was a hopeful sign for anyone living in a country which still gives a shit about producing scientists and such. Equally, it is a hopeful sign for those who are rooting for the US to falter and die.

If you need further clarification please just feel free to anonymous rep me with any further question.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 21:01   #73
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Re: well worth a read

my college (and the other one near me) both offer further maths, economics and philosphy, and both are state schools.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 21:23   #74
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
One who has maths physics and photography is possibly going to lose out to someone who has maths physics and history.
Hey!

In photography we were taught the science behind it and the history of it (it linked well with maths/chem/phys that i did) and along with the fact you had to spend most of your lunch break every day in the dark room so you had enough prints for your unit means it's not a piss easy subject.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 22:13   #75
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Re: well worth a read

taking a lot of time doesn't make it difficult. digging up a road takes a long time but it's hardly intellectually challenging now is it?
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 22:59   #76
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
taking a lot of time doesn't make it difficult. digging up a road takes a long time but it's hardly intellectually challenging now is it?
Tell that to the Romans!
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 23:03   #77
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
That's mainly because Business Studies is more accessible and can be taught to 16-18 year olds at a level which they can relate to.

Being able to talk about production methods (for example) is pretty simple if you just throw in a few real life examples.
Economics can be taught at an accessible level as well - as I'm sure you realise, it's all about the quality of the teacher, not the subject material. Every economic theory at A-Level has a relevant "real life example", e.g. perfect price inelasticity can be shown by FA Cup Final tickets.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 23:05   #78
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Tell that to the Romans!
He's not going to be able to tell anything to the Romans if he hasn't done Latin.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 23:23   #79
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Re: well worth a read

or invent the time travel machine without physics and maths.
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 23:37   #80
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Re: well worth a read

According to Anne Mccaffrey, you don't need maths and physics, just a dragon you can fly and a good imagination. That's got to be some art subject(s).
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Unread 28 Aug 2006, 23:43   #81
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Economics can be taught at an accessible level as well - as I'm sure you realise, it's all about the quality of the teacher, not the subject material. Every economic theory at A-Level has a relevant "real life example", e.g. perfect price inelasticity can be shown by FA Cup Final tickets.
Which is also taught in Business Studies

(although petrol is a better example)
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 00:01   #82
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
taking a lot of time doesn't make it difficult. digging up a road takes a long time but it's hardly intellectually challenging now is it?
You ever developed your own 35mm film and printed the prints yourself with an enlarger?
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 00:15   #83
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Re: well worth a read

Petrol is only possibly a better example because all the damn oil companies have purchased rights to a few of the other possible ways to make fuel so no one can make them to try and help their monopoly-type setup

Economics is taught at GCSE in many places. I don't really think it gets *hugely* theoretical until A level etc though (I admit I can't really remember what I did in my GCSE course or in my AS levels but I'm sure it was fairly basic stuff at GCSE).

It was things like money supply affecting price - "if there's 3 chairs on an island and 3 people want to buy chairs, if they have £3 each then they'll be willing to pay less for a chair than if they had £10 each" and so on, to introduce basic concepts.

Really, subjects overlap quite a lot until it gets to about A-Level. Doing economics or business studies depends on if you want to go into a business or become some sort of adviser
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 00:43   #84
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
(although petrol is a better example)
Is it? I realise it's the traditionally cited example but I think you could probably make a good case that some economic actors (chiefly companies, not private indivduals) probably do make alterations to their transport uses as a result of changing fuel costs, in the medium term at least.
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 00:50   #85
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Re: well worth a read

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Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Hey!

In photography we were taught the science behind it and the history of it (it linked well with maths/chem/phys that i did) and along with the fact you had to spend most of your lunch break every day in the dark room so you had enough prints for your unit means it's not a piss easy subject.
I never said it was. I know that photography was actually quite a difficult and interesting subject and there's no way I'd be able to do well in it (well, the maths side of things I'd walk but the arty bit i would fail badly).

But that wasn't the point of what I said.
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 07:29   #86
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Is it?
Not really, but then I don't think FA cup final tickets are either. There's no doubt both are inelastic, but I would argue that perfect price inelasticity is a concept, not something to be found in real life. Such as perfect competition.
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 10:58   #87
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Is it? I realise it's the traditionally cited example but I think you could probably make a good case that some economic actors (chiefly companies, not private indivduals) probably do make alterations to their transport uses as a result of changing fuel costs, in the medium term at least.
Yes. It is.

Surprisingly enough, not all 16-18 year olds care or understand about the demand and supply for FA Cup tickets or whichever football event furball spoke about.

Pretty much all understand that petrol is a "necessity". Which makes it a better example for learning.
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 12:03   #88
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Not really, but then I don't think FA cup final tickets are either. There's no doubt both are inelastic, but I would argue that perfect price inelasticity is a concept, not something to be found in real life. Such as perfect competition.
Of course, but I'd argue petrol is more elastic than FA Cup tickets in most cases.

If nothing else I'm not a big fan of the petrol example because fuel (and energy) costs are always said to have some impact on the level of economic activity in general (which in turn is going to affect the demand...).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Surprisingly enough, not all 16-18 year olds care or understand about the demand and supply for FA Cup tickets or whichever football event furball spoke about.
You wouldn't need to really care about the event per se, and it'd be fairly easy to explain to someone who had never even heard of football, or sport in general.

Not that it really matters which example you use, I think furball's point is that these concepts are pretty easy to apply to every day issues. The book Freakonomics (which isn't necessarily great admittedly) applies (sort of) economic theory to things like the Weakest Link, why drug dealers tend to live with their parents and things like that.
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 12:13   #89
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Re: well worth a read

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Why drug dealers tend to live with their parents and things like that.
??

I've never met a drug dealer older than 20 who lives with his parents. What is the reasoning for this?
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 12:32   #90
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Re: well worth a read

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
I've never met a drug dealer older than 20 who lives with his parents. What is the reasoning for this?
Well you've hit upon part of his point. The argument goes something like this : Most drug dealers (they are mainly talking about crack dealers in the US projects here from what I remember) are earning basically minimum wage and aren't much different from the people working in McDonalds. There are vast amounts of money being made, but they are going to a relatively small number of people. The amount going to the "troops" on the ground means that most of them end up living with their families for the same reason a lot of McDonald's employees probably do.
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 14:48   #91
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Of course, but I'd argue petrol is more elastic than FA Cup tickets in most cases.

If nothing else I'm not a big fan of the petrol example because fuel (and energy) costs are always said to have some impact on the level of economic activity in general (which in turn is going to affect the demand...).
You wouldn't need to really care about the event per se, and it'd be fairly easy to explain to someone who had never even heard of football, or sport in general.
It isn't about being easy to explain - it's about them being able to remember the example. You're bombarding these pupils with facts and theories for 6 hours of every day in a variety of subjects. The easier it is for them to associate things then the easier it is for them to revise them and learn them.

A girl (sorry for being stereotypical) will disregard the FA Cup example. If you tell them that it's the "petrol thing" then usually they'll all go "ohhhhhh i remember now!".
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Unread 29 Aug 2006, 16:03   #92
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Re: well worth a read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
A girl (sorry for being stereotypical) will disregard the FA Cup example. If you tell them that it's the "petrol thing" then usually they'll all go "ohhhhhh i remember now!".
Fair enough. My school happened to be a (nearly) all-boys school. But change it from the FA Cup to something like Westlife tickets or festival tickets and you'll find something that applies to them all. The FA Cup Final happens to have the most sought after tickets in the country with a guaranteed limited supply (the number of seats in the stadium), hence why it was used as the example.
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