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View Poll Results: What is your view on support planets for alliances/galaxies?
Unfair advantage for the game 89 52.05%
Fairplay - "all is fair in love and war" 74 43.27%
Don't know / not sure 8 4.68%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:09   #1
Appocomaster
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Support Planets

This is obviously related to the "double standards" thread.

I've delayed an announcement for a couple of days. Partly it was clarifying the wording, to stop players and alliances trying to abuse loopholes. However, there's another issue.


The question is "Are support planets bad?"

Some of the issues are :-

1) Is trying to force an alliance to keep within its tag, which has been happening more and more over the past few rounds, killing the game?

2) Should an alliance merely be made up of those players in its tag?

3) Are war games meant to be "fair", and if so in what way? i.e. is the game meant to be "every alliance has 100 members, the one who's members are biggest at the end wins" or "every alliance is represented by 100 members, but can get help from outside the alliance" or something else? The best alliance is meant to be the winner, but under what constraints?

Farming/ship donating and multiing and so on would still be against the rules. It might be more of a sheer numbers/organisation issue to help win, but that gets more players involved in the game.
In some ways it may possibly make alliance tactics more important and perhaps alliance politics less important. The actual alliance limit would not be raised too much, allowing smaller alliances to still play and hopefully not suffer.

The game is very much about striking a balance between the dynamic flow of resources and ships to create a winner, and protecting new players / ensuring the players stay within certain acceptable bounds.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:15   #2
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Re: Support Planets

I didn't want to disappoint the 1up haters around so guess what i voted for.

The game is flawed regardless of how many people are allowed in a tag.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:16   #3
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Re: Support Planets

I voted for all fair in love and war for a laugh
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:21   #4
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Re: Support Planets

well i just cant vote on the poll as long as pacrew decides what is support and what is not. 1up use the loophole that means they isnt supportplanets by admin's rules (mh) but still use shipfarmings within their ranks. other allies use random planets and mates and they are called support atm

so sort the main issue before starting a poll like this
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:32   #5
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I voted for all fair in love and war for a laugh
weeee piggy!
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:37   #6
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Re: Support Planets

How does this thread have anything to do with issues raised in the 'Double Standards' thread?

I'm sure if you had a poll which said, "Should selective enforcement of the alliance tag limits rule be acceptable?" the answer would be clearly "No!" Yet by asking this question in a round after you allowed the #1 alliance to keep many players out of tag and clearly violate the same rules you choose to now uphold. Well--that quite simply is bullshit. Why is it every round that eXilition plays, the MH choose those same rounds to opt to enforce certain things which were not enforced against 1up in the previous round?

I donno, mabye it has something to do with the fact that the connections between 1up and PA Team are so close. Fiery - Multihunter, 2.5 rounds in 1up. Assassin, ex-MH, joined 1up. Phil, ex-MH, joined 1up. I'm sure I'm missing a few more.

So drawing back to the question in this poll. Are "Support Planets" acceptable? To be honest-- my position is very close to Lokken's and JBG, as it has been dicussed in legnth elsewhere.

But what I would like, either way, is the bull**** to stop. I've had just about enough of selective enforcement. You choose one way, and you stick to it. You shouldn't flip-flop tag-limit enforcement policy from round to round, just because one certain alliance is playing, and a group of folks who are notorious for whining are doing their whining.

Victory should go to those who fight for it and win, not cry about it till nobody can stand the noise they make.

-NitinA
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:42   #7
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
I donno, mabye it has something to do with the fact that the connections between 1up and PA Team are so close. Fiery - Multihunter, 2.5 rounds in 1up. Assassin, ex-MH, joined 1up. Phil, ex-MH, joined 1up. I'm sure I'm missing a few more.-NitinA
They joined 1up after being a MH, my god that must mean they're biased!
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:47   #8
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
They joined 1up after being a MH, my god that must mean they're biased!
Without meaning to attract the fun antics and pigheadedness of mazz/Zhil/Germ*, it does mean they have a better understanding of how the MH works and ways of getting around it.

It also means they have good relations with discussing reopening of planets etc with them.

That isn't the issue at hand though. I voted for the first option. Support planets in any case are "bad".

But the rule shouldn't be enforced until next round - I hope PA Team realise that.


*Just to reiterate - that was NOT an attack on 1up! Maybe I should repeat it a few more times in case you decide to jump to the defensive again.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:55   #9
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Re: Support Planets

Regardless of whether you are a MH or not you can still get around it.

But thats not the issue at hand.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:00   #10
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Re: Support Planets

I cant vote for any of the options, the poll is flawed..
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:06   #11
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Regardless of whether you are a MH or not you can still get around it.
YOU'D know!

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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:11   #12
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Re: Support Planets

Do you honestly think phil would cheat? (and to a lesser extent assassin)

Because if you don't your argument was stupid and you knew it before you wrote it.

If you do, you're an idiot.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:14   #13
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Re: Support Planets

No, but knowing the system, and the current MH knowing them, I feel the MH team may have a bias.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:31   #14
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Re: Support Planets

Im dissapointed in both yourself NitinA and Tomkat for lowering yourself to an argument which you both know is bullshit.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:34   #15
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Re: Support Planets

As long as you use hardcoded alliances there has to be a rule against support planets.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:38   #16
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
As long as you use hardcoded alliances there has to be a rule against support planets.
What if tags are just expressions of alliances?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:46   #17
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Re: Support Planets

This thread is missing the point entirely.

What you need is to have a beta/development team that actually has a say and rebuilds the game from top to bottom, bark out orders to a coder who just codes the thing. Support planets are just part of the picture.

We need a group of people who know or at least will be able to decide where the game should be going, build a good game and we can build from there.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:47   #18
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Im dissapointed in both yourself NitinA and Tomkat for lowering yourself to an argument which you both know is bullshit.
I was only saying I could see NitinA's point. Read the post.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:49   #19
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Re: Support Planets

All is fair in love and war. You can't make this game fair for just one alliance who has for some reason not used all possible features to achieve victory. It's their fault.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:50   #20
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I was only saying I could see NitinA's point. Read the post.
Apologies, I have this thing inside me, each time I read 1up and it is a negative statement I see red. Sometimes I am blinded by the red. This leads to me not actually being able to read what is in front of me. The anger is like an evil darkness. It gets stronger, yet I cant escape it. Eventually I manage to scramble the words of hatred onto an internet forum and the red mist soon dissapears. I then sit back in my chair and knock one off, to the thought that I once again defended 1up and defeated the evil enemy on the internet.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:59   #21
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Apologies, I have this thing inside me, each time I read 1up and it is a negative statement I see red. Sometimes I am blinded by the red. This leads to me not actually being able to read what is in front of me. The anger is like an evil darkness. It gets stronger, yet I cant escape it. Eventually I manage to scramble the words of hatred onto an internet forum and the red mist soon dissapears. I then sit back in my chair and knock one off, to the thought that I once again defended 1up and defeated the evil enemy on the internet.
You make me giggle piglet
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 22:13   #22
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
All is fair in love and war. You can't make this game fair for just one alliance who has for some reason not used all possible features to achieve victory. It's their fault.

Then why have rules at all?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 22:15   #23
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Re: Support Planets

For the record, the round after Angels became a BG as part of MISTU, I actually went over Angels before the final ticks and closed several of them. The only difference is, if anything, I was more likely to have the appeal before hand as it's easier to track them down. In the past, I've often contacted those who were around on IRC when there were possible issues, because it's slightly less damaging than closing them (although more time consuming).

Please try and keep the discussion on topic, or I'll start removing irrelevant posts.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 22:20   #24
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
No, but knowing the system, and the current MH knowing them, I feel the MH team may have a bias.
You are in the support team, as are/were a lot of the current mh and have been for quite some time.
does that mean they are similarly biased towards you or infact more biased towards you since you continue to work with them?
no. of course it doesnt so kindly stop talking out of your arse pls ta.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 22:22   #25
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I cant vote for any of the options, the poll is flawed..
then list what you would have voted for instead.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 22:29   #26
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by idimmu
Thats the point, there shouldnt be any. It should be a sandbox universe environment with combat mechanics etc, then let people go at it however they want.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 22:45   #27
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
This thread is missing the point entirely.

What you need is to have a beta/development team that actually has a say and rebuilds the game from top to bottom, bark out orders to a coder who just codes the thing. Support planets are just part of the picture.

We need a group of people who know or at least will be able to decide where the game should be going, build a good game and we can build from there.
This is a bit off topic, and could probably be split into a separate thread.
headed by?

In the past when one has been pieced together, it has generally fallen apart fairly quickly due to lack of activity / guidance / motivation. Both Kal and I have tried to make a team. The closest we ever got to such a team was the beta team headed by Petru, tbh.

I know Kal was starting to work up to something from, as far as I know, a more theoretical point of view.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 23:24   #28
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Re: Support Planets

From my point of view, I always had a distaste for people who get others to do their "dity work", and then proceed to get rewarded for it. Regarding support planets, my own egocentric, not necessarely logical, and biased answer is a loud "No!".

But the interesting part is how to define a support planet? How do we implement a rule that prohibits support planets? If we are not able to successfully implement that rule, or if we implement it in a manner that does not guarantee that everyone will have the same rights, should we then have the rule at all?

Apologize in advance for the coming part, it is not necessarely related to the poll, but as Appocomaster mentioned it in the opening post, I feel it is safe to rant a bit about it here. I am astounded that 1up managed to pull away something in round 16 (or 17, I am not sure how far we got since I stopped playing), that half of the community and many of the PA team were angered by when eXilition did it in round 15. Why is it that eXilition's use of support planets caused a sudden and unforeseen debate of a rulechange, and had several of the planets in question closed (the rule was apparently retrospective(sp?), and if you had been a support planet before the rule, you would be closed for breaking a rule that didn't exist at the time you signed up. I am not sure if this is true, but I heard it from several people I know)?

While the cases in question are obviously (far from it), identical, they have many similarities. Well - you answer "elephants and birds have many genetical similiarities" - lets keep dogs and elephants out of this, please! The thing is, the scanners that were in tag in 1up and donated to the tag were effectively members of the alliance and contributed to it, in a manner that is in my opinion not acceptable with the current set of rules. But this is a grey area of it, and I don't think that 1up could (should?) have been punished for it in a way that would reflect the actual "crime".

The point for me, is that in both cases the alliances got around the alliance member limit by having "supporters/scanners/defwhores" etc. I wouldn't care if we were speaking about alliance members actively supported the alliance from inside tag (and this is the brilliance in what 1up did, they had their support planets in the tag), as they would then have taken up a valuable spot in the alliance hence reducing the potential alliance. But by only staying in tag for a while, one can get around this.

I am very, very sorry for this far too long post, and I coming to a conclusion soon. First I'd just like to say that what we have seen so far is that it is virtually impossible to enforce these rules justly, and that creativity seems to be getting the better off them whatever we do anyway. And since this isn't real life, and we aren't speaking about laws regarding life, death and the cosmic truth about everything (42!), a rule such as this might create more harm than it will rememdy. I didn't use to think that, but time has proven me wrong.

Why bother with a rule that can not be implemented in a way that will satisfy the majority (all would be a bit too far fetched here) of the players? I don't think we should. For clarification, I still think that use of support planets is morally wrong, and unfair.

Edit: I am so hungover that I have forgotten how to properly use a keyboard. I fixed 4 typoes already but be alert for more!
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 23:26   #29
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Re: Support Planets

My qualm is : what is defined as a support planet ? I mean how do you know if a planet is doing it's best but its ships keep getting stolen, or if it's a ship farm ? same with roids. You must first design strict rules as to what a support planet is so when it comes to deletion time you can say "it's explicitly in the EULA".

An immediate suggestion is : simply stop allowing free accounts. If people are forced to pay for their accounts, it'll start getting very expensive for alliances to muster support planets. Perhaps you could make free planets restricted to playing "two weeks" instead of just restricting what they can do. Should be long enough for people to decide if they like the game enough to pay for it.

Of course : how many members should an alliance be allowed ? This is, frankly, the bigger question. For instance, if 1up or Omen are allowed 100 members, how can smaller alliances like Heroic or Myth ever compete with them !? Especially if you don't allow them to merge. Then again, if you only allow them 50 members, they have to pick-and-choose who to have, and they're restricted in what they can do. They'll start setting up sister/splinter/wing alliances and act as though they were one alliance so it would defeat the point of the limit.

If you allow only 50 members in an alliance, they will obviously be more tempted to secretly organise support planets than if they have 100 members. But then how do you find out who is supporting and who they are supporting ? If all 50 members recruit one real-life friend to sign up a free planet - how on Earth will you detect them all !?

50 members, for example, should be sufficient to show what quality those players are, but then PA has new members joining every day joining training alliances and to compete against 50 combined elite players is impossible.

Quite frankly, it is only the big alliances who are capable of organising support planets. Smaller alliances do not have the time nor members to do so, and prefer to simply recruit planets and do what they can with them. Thus my feeling toward the actual question here is : no, certainly not. It might tip the balance for one alliance or the other, but it's certainly not fair for ALL alliances. It's not a matter of strategy, it's a matter of cheating the number of members - or roids, or ships - the alliance actually has and has actually worked for. "My mate's set up a free planet - go steal it's ships and roids for free" ... they haven't worked for it, they've just exploited the niceness of the PA creators allowing people to try the game for free to artificially increase the alliance and the planet then ends up in the 200 cluster and is forgotten about.

Which brings up another issue - roids. When the top 100 players start becoming out of reach, everybody outside the top 100 can't truly hit them. The problem is : how do we get roids then ?? The top player is holding 5,000 roids, but only started the game with 200 initiated roids, so where have the other roids come from ? He didn't init them you can be sure of that ! He stole them ! From who ? Other players. That's why the 200 cluster is literally PACKED with players, because they started the game, got screwed over, then thought "what's the point" and disappeared. That is why PA maintains the number of players it has and the increase is only slight.

I must say I cannot see a way of avoiding this other than periodically giving out a few roids to random planets, or to those below rank 1000, or something ... or creating "ghost" planets that appear with 100 roids, slowly increase in score/value then when they've been roided as an easy target disappear. Right now the number of roids in PA only increases due to the fact that new players try the game out with a free account, get roided to hell, then disappear - while the top 100 players hold onto thousands of roids and get stupidly large.

My 2-cents (or pennies as I'm British).
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 23:31   #30
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Re: Support Planets

I voted for "unfair advantage for the game" because it must be the opposite of the other option "do anything you like".

We have tag limits, and until we get rid of them they need to be enforced. That has to mean eliminating all areas of doubt. I'm almost tempted to enforce a ban on all OOGOAA activity, but it still seems too drastic for my liking.


So: everyone who contributes to your alliance must be in tag. That includes cov-oppers, scanners and everything else.

Any planet not in a tag but who makes an excessive contribution to a particular tag (e.g. 50% of their actions in conjunction with a tag's movements) will be reset by a MH. The MH's decisions are final.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 00:00   #31
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Re: Support Planets

It's fair play for everyone as long as people don't multi, so I voted #2. Naughty way of playing yes, but it'd be retarded to disallow it as it's not exactly cheating when a human being actually plays it.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 00:02   #32
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaverickPH
An immediate suggestion is : simply stop allowing free accounts. If people are forced to pay for their accounts, it'll start getting very expensive for alliances to muster support planets. Perhaps you could make free planets restricted to playing "two weeks" instead of just restricting what they can do. Should be long enough for people to decide if they like the game enough to pay for it.
I just read six pages of "Double Standards", and I'm dying inside. Then I get this. I am going to bed without responding to the rest of the post you made, but I might do tomorrow as I consider this to be an important topic.

To do the short summary, disallowing free accounts will almost certainly lead to a great stagnation in the recruiting of new players to the game. As far as I can tell, there are already more people leaving than joining the game, and I think that the benefit of this change is far from equal to the cost. This isn't where the problem is. The problem is the rule itself, not the "big alliances", not the support planets, but the very definition of a support planet. The whole thing just doesn't work at all.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 00:05   #33
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Re: Support Planets

in addition to qebabs post above, it should be noted that there are people out there with more money then sense. Its nothing to them to pay for a couple of accounts to cheat with. Ive seen it first hand and no doubt there have been examples in every round since.
banning free accounts will solve nothing.

Im still quite fond of simply drawing up a whitelist of what people *are* allowed to do. Prevents any future things which could be thought up to bend the rules since if it aint on the list - it aint allowed.
simplifies things oh so much.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 00:11   #34
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Im still quite fond of simply drawing up a whitelist of what people *are* allowed to do. Prevents any future things which could be thought up to bend the rules since if it aint on the list - it aint allowed.
simplifies things oh so much.
While this is obviously a great way to prohibit foul play, it would need a whole lot of time and creativity to work out that list, and even then there would be things that should be allowed but weren't there.

A part of the charm of these tick style games, is to work out new ways to play, strategies, techniques etc. If you would take away this, regardless of how long the list was and what was in it, I think it would also discourage a lot of people from playing. If it could be implemented without that major problem - I actually like the idea. I just don't think that it is realistic.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 00:37   #35
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This is a bit off topic, and could probably be split into a separate thread.
headed by?

In the past when one has been pieced together, it has generally fallen apart fairly quickly due to lack of activity / guidance / motivation. Both Kal and I have tried to make a team. The closest we ever got to such a team was the beta team headed by Petru, tbh.

I know Kal was starting to work up to something from, as far as I know, a more theoretical point of view.
The point is whether we will need any rule depends on how we view things on alliance tags, how alliances should work, how ETA's should work. How can we even debate the support planets rule when we don't know what it is and while this is beneficial you need a clear definition of what conduct should or shouldn't be allowed. No one knows what support planets are, so lets walk before we can run, perhaps?

The game needs a whole rethink and support planets rule is something that would be affected as to how that went. The fact to me is that if "PA team" can't get it right, they should give a real chance to seasoned experienced players who have proved their knowledge by being successful and contributing to the forums and know the game by actually playing it, as that is the only way to truly understand how planetarion works. These are players who while they need a leader to make cutthroat decisions, they don't need to be told they are wrong by someone who in their opinion, probably have less PA experience than them.

Beta recruitment for game development should be qualitative, by people who want to do the job and who can prove their planetarion experience so they are up to the job. While I can't comment on exactly what was discussed in beta, I'll just say I was disappointed that we came up with some good suggestions and we only ended up being put off. You have fantastic players who will not test because they think it is a waste of time, when they could be your greatest asset.

Maybe this is a seperate thread. I have made my views on the support planets rule before. If you aren't cheating in the conventional manner, you are simply a planet helping out, which is teamwork and not benefiting from the ETA advantages of tags and tihs is something we shouldn't punish. I feel that the introduction of the rule was highly political, when really the first batch of exi support planets should have been deleted for cheating if it indeed was present.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 01:06   #36
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Re: Support Planets

Would eahc new round benefit from hardwied alliances of the same size? Then it would be up to the same top individuals to organise and train the new players and less active ones. As a result these becomes another task for the expereinced players more akin to RL leaders. There could be some sort of seeding for more expereinced players and the number of alliances is set to make an even playing field. As the knowledge and skills are redistributed to the newbies then a competent alliance can be built from scratch.
Having new people in your alliance spreads the community spirit that in the end will keep people playing
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 01:31   #37
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Re: Support Planets

No offense to anyone here who posted. But I simply feel that a poll isn't the best way to deal with this subject or any others concerning rules for the game. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a good portion of people who vote in polls like this haven't spent the proper time to consider the implications for the subject. There was once a very good dicussion about this subject matter in a private thread on these boards by some very thoughtful people, and in the end of the dicussion, most people had agreed to one answer. Too bad I can't say more.

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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 01:36   #38
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Re: Support Planets

I agree, NitinA. However, I've found that the polls get followed anyway and that if you don't speak your mind whenever you can, you'll only pay the price later.

Polls are useless, but if it's going to be followed...
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 02:46   #39
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Re: Support Planets

The poll is useless, but i still voted for all is fair in love and war. Atleast till we get a clear definition of what a support planet really is.
For me it's a planet attacking with an alliance, defending that alliance or a farm (ships and/or roids).
Anything else like example cov-op planets, scanners, the not playing res donating planets 1up had last round (this one is a gray one for me as the alliance sure did gain alot of resources from those planets, but pa-team allowed it so...) are not support planets.
Sure, cov-oppers can do damage, but if you look at it that way scanners do damage too, making all those scans that tells the enemy exactly whats going on. And both can be stopped, either by building sec centres or jammers. Does that mean we have to close all out of tag scanners & cov-oppers? Why not close every person not in an alliance aswell while we're at it caus they can cov-op, scan and attack aswell.

(sorry if my post isn't that structurised but it's almost 4am over here, what do you expect?)
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 03:37   #40
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Re: Support Planets

Going through this thread, it appears to me most agree support planets are "bad". Why is this? Simply stated, because they circumvent the alliance limits via untagged members...

Alliance limits were set in place as a means to prevent HUGE conglomerations of players in a few strong groups, thus leaving new people (the life blood of continuing this game) from having an enjoyable experience. Granted, alliance limits alone have not made the game entirely "balanced" (if by that you mean an unallied planet has as likely a chance to succeed at the level of an allied one), but I DO feel those alliance limits have made the game more competitive over all. And from this new competitiveness has arisen, most naturally, strategies evolved to give each alliance that extra "edge" needed to beat their foes. This is where support planets enter the picture...

The question now is how, or even WHETHER, to regulate these support planets...

Think outside the box a moment:

What constitutes an "acceptable" support planet?

I doubt seriously ANY reasonable alliance would want to eliminate Scan planets. Doing so would impede the growth of too many members overall, as well as eliminate much of the co-operational aspect of this game.

What about Def Planets? These planets would be much harder to defend as being "in the interests of the game". The creation of planets solely for the defense of an alliance would seem to be a direct circumvention of alliance limits. Also, Def planets could easily morph into "ship/roid farms", could be used to overwhelm the defense on target planets via lack of regard for ship losses from the defense planet "attack helper", or any of a number of other pernicious uses...

The problem, from my way of thinking, is that a Scan Planet, especially with the alliance fund/taxation etc, can relatively easily swap to become a Def planet, and vice versa. How do you rectify this?

Perhaps thought should be given to ALLOWING both Scanners and Def planets into the game officially, but placing limits upon the numbers of those planets allowable to an alliance. I'm sure we all know people who are completely happy being scanners, and we also know people who love defending their mates more than attacking, so why penalize people who seek their enjoyment in these activities, instead of the unrestrained pursuit of roids and score? Afterall, it is relatively easy to identify a Scanner or a Def planet via thier build pattern. If it is an in-game option to sign up for an alliance as one of these 2 types of planets, then more than 1 instance of suspect activity in aid of a given alliance by an unregistered planet fitting a certain build type could easily be "justified" as suspension and/or closure worthy.

Granted, there may be coding problems to doing this, but are these coding problems insurmountable? I would have no clue...

More to the point would be the mechanics of implementing the inclusion of support planets. Do you allow them to sign up ONLY pre-round (or before the end of protection), or allow continued recruitment of these types of planets throughout the round? Do you allow unrestricted "switching" between the modes of play? What, if any, portion of the support planet's score would go towards the overall alliance score?

These question would be easier to address than the issue at the heart of Support planets though- The question of whether they should exist at all.

I say yes, but with regulation.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 07:49   #41
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
I donno, mabye it has something to do with the fact that the connections between 1up and PA Team are so close. Fiery - Multihunter, 2.5 rounds in 1up. Assassin, ex-MH, joined 1up. Phil, ex-MH, joined 1up. I'm sure I'm missing a few more.

-NitinA
Nitin,
I left 1up a full round before I became an MH. You have no idea why I left 1up, and, in fact, 1up has no idea why I left 1up because no one from 1up has ever bothered to ask me why I left them. I couldn't care less about 1up because they have shown me time and time and time again that they don't give a rat's ass about the people in their own alliance unless those people are top twenty planets. Why you think I would give a shit about them over alliances that have my friends in them is beyond my ken.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 09:23   #42
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Re: Support Planets

this may either be really clever or overly simplistic... but as some people have said the issue is really that your casual mates can signup free accounts and use them to support you. Therefore the issue is the free accounts.

Currently free accounts are in essence only limited from a technology point of view - why not change the limit to be one of actions - for example a free account could only be allowed 5 fleet launches per day, 2 covert ops per day, 5 scans per day. Enough to give them a feel for the different things they can do, but not enough to do any major damage.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 09:33   #43
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
this may either be really clever or overly simplistic... but as some people have said the issue is really that your casual mates can signup free accounts and use them to support you. Therefore the issue is the free accounts.

Currently free accounts are in essence only limited from a technology point of view - why not change the limit to be one of actions - for example a free account could only be allowed 5 fleet launches per day, 2 covert ops per day, 5 scans per day. Enough to give them a feel for the different things they can do, but not enough to do any major damage.
because there will always be someone with more then sense who pays for them/will pay for them?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 09:39   #44
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stifler
because there will always be someone with more then sense who pays for them/will pay for them?
I'm assuming the word money is missing from that.

Yes someone may upgrade theese people if they so wish to - but I'd still say that limiting free accounts in the way I describe improves the situation form what it is currently if we went with option 2 from the poll.

Personally I dont have an issue if soomeone's mate signups in essense as a very casual covert opper or scanner, or maybe even a casual defender/attacker - hell that might actually describe a lot of the current players of the game. Yes they may help a mate/alliance, but its small scale. The issue I guess is when the support gets to the active level and when it is clearly purely about circumventing the alliance size limit.
e.g. an alliance having 100 active planets instead of 65 etc.

So in my mind if you add in my new freebie limits, and also perhaps have some way to tell the difference between an active/casual support planet then most of the concerns over support planets would be met.

Am I entirly missing the point?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 09:41   #45
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
this may either be really clever or overly simplistic... but as some people have said the issue is really that your casual mates can signup free accounts and use them to support you. Therefore the issue is the free accounts.

Currently free accounts are in essence only limited from a technology point of view - why not change the limit to be one of actions - for example a free account could only be allowed 5 fleet launches per day, 2 covert ops per day, 5 scans per day. Enough to give them a feel for the different things they can do, but not enough to do any major damage.
well there is actually some ppl who would pay for their supporters so its no use to limit the freebes more.

paying for 10-20 friends to work as supporter are a cheap prize for some if they get a good rank
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:06   #46
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
paying for 10-20 friends to work as supporter are a cheap prize for some if they get a good rank
It amazes me why people are sad enough to do such a thing.

Saying that there are a lot of sad people who play this game.

However is it fair to the players? I argued a case to allow multiple planets. I would love multiing to be legal. However the argument that kept on creeping up (and the only sizeable argument at that may I add) is that the game will just become a game about this who have the most money. It will be less about skill, team work and working within the bounderies and more about the individuals bank balance.

This is what support planets effectively are. If I wanted to I could get 20 mates today signed up and cov-opping say eXilition within a week. However quite frankly im not that sad enough and dont take the game that seriously. I believe like Multiing support planets give an unfair advantage.

The point is that cant we all be content with one planet and a circa 65 member alliance? Why do we need anymore than that. Anything else seems pathetic to me.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:08   #47
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Re: Support Planets

ask your allie m8s piggie
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:14   #48
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
ask your allie m8s piggie
I asked them, they arent replying.

But in all seriousness I dont want to turn this into a slanging match about alliances.

Its not about them. Alliances are full of people, its what people choose to do thats the difference.

At the moment I reckon I could sign up several multi planets ontop of my ingame planet. I also am 99% sure I wont get caught. But the thing is I dont do it. There seems to be a problem with not only the game being open for abuse, but also the players and the way they approach the game.

If they take it too seriously then we are left in a position whereby support planets,multis and account sharing exist. Rules or no rules its the mentallity of the players and the approach some people take towards the game that is the problem in my opinion.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:15   #49
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Re: Support Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well there is actually some ppl who would pay for their supporters so its no use to limit the freebes more.

paying for 10-20 friends to work as supporter are a cheap prize for some if they get a good rank
If I had the income to where I had enough spare cash to pay for 10-20 other people, I would be doing something more useful with my time than playing this game.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:18   #50
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Re: Support Planets

Personally I think the reason the alliance size limit was introduced was complete horseshit. Everyone thought it made sense because superficially it did make sense, but the facts don't bear it out. Alliances weren't getting too big for the universe. If people want to make blocks they still make them. The game still stagnates. Look at last round, how many planets weren't NAPed to 1up in the t100? Seven? Eight? In the end what was the actual difference between these planets being in 1up and not being in 1up? 1up had won, they didn't need extra defence, they had more roids and they were going to outgrow everyone anyways. All it did was decrease the number of potential targets and increase the incoming on a shrinking number of planets, all of whom found it in their best interests (personal planet rank) to NAP as well.

So what are you going to do about this? Demand certain planets launch on certain other planets? It's a war game. A game in which you can gain by taking roids off other players. A game like that is fundamentally unfair. Trying to equalise the playing field through new regulations is missing the point. You either change the entire nature of the game or you accept that these limits are daft. If you want to still have tags fine but they're going to just be another form of ranking with added bonuses for being in them like cluster alliances you have to opt into to get the benefits. They're just going to be a particular expression of an alliance.

Eventually it's always about choice.
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