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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:04   #51
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Re: Double Standards

intresting 1upper always starts to talk about wanting evidence and so then it gets tougher odd isnt it?

if you guys didnt do anything wrong you shouldnt be worried at all
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:10   #52
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
intresting 1upper always starts to talk about wanting evidence and so then it gets tougher odd isnt it?

if you guys didnt do anything wrong you shouldnt be worried at all
i dont think worried comes into it at any point.
irritated at baseless accusations perhaps
amused by people such as you who post without thinking - absolutely
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:16   #53
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If you're going to resort to "I want proof! Where's your evidence?!" then I can't be bothered to continue this discussion with you Germania.
Please don't. You are now only confirming something thats been evident in all your posts on this thread, you dont care what the actual facts are.

Quote:
As I said in my above post, the main benefit/advantage of hiding your members is that when the time comes, you can choose the ones with the highest score to join your tag.
This has nothing to do with the support planet rule.

Quote:
So by your logic, if all those scanners/covoppers had made a nice little alliance called "WE HATE 1UP AND WILL COVOP THEM ALL DAY LONG" then it'd be perfectly legal and allowed? But because they aren't tagged up anywhere it's cheating?

I see.
If by 'my logic' you mean something completely different than what I actually said...

I was pointing out that just attacking with someone doesnt make you a support planet Ill let you figure out how you translated that into a point about an alliance of cov-oppers.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:16   #54
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
i dont think worried comes into it at any point.
irritated at baseless accusations perhaps
amused by people such as you who post without thinking - absolutely
That's obfuscation really. The point has been made that 1up had more people "playing for them" at certain points last round than the alliance limit would allow. However nothing was done to punish this flagrant violation of the rules. This round some out-of-tag planets are closed for covert-opping 1up planets excessively, supposedly these planets are playing for exilition. So, round 16 one alliance violates the member limit for alliances and nothing happens. Round 17 one alliance violates the member limit for alliances and planets are closed.

Not consistent is it?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:19   #55
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
The rules are the same this round as they were last round.

Why was it perfectly acceptable last round but it isn't this round?

Again - another example of the inconsistencies of the rules.

(and please can you stop taking this personally and making it about 1up? It's getting a bit tedious )
You are the one who made this about 1up, read your first post.

And whether or not the rules are consistant between rounds is a seperate issue to whether or not they are enforced consistantly between different people during the same round.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:21   #56
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
And whether or not the rules are consistant between rounds is a seperate issue to whether or not they are enforced consistantly between different people during the same round.
This would make sense if the rules changed in this area. They didn't, so it doesn't.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:23   #57
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
intresting 1upper always starts to talk about wanting evidence and so then it gets tougher odd isnt it?

if you guys didnt do anything wrong you shouldnt be worried at all
I dont know why you and tk have pulled the word evidence out of the context of my post to harp on it, nor can I figure out what exactly you are trying to say here.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:23   #58
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Re: Double Standards

Trying to have an objective discussion with people who are completely and utterly biased (and also don't seem to "get" the discussion) is very difficult indeed

Although I'm sure it must be fun defending yourselves against an attack which isn't really there!

I do feel a little stuck-record-ish but I'll say it again - this is not about 1up. I simply used that as an example for the inconsistencies in rules.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:27   #59
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This would make sense if the rules changed in this area. They didn't, so it doesn't.
As long as PA team enforces the rules the same way for everyone at any given time, there is no double standard.

And the rules dont have to change for interpretation or enforcement of a rule to change.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:29   #60
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Trying to have an objective discussion with people who are completely and utterly biased (and also don't seem to "get" the discussion) is very difficult indeed

Although I'm sure it must be fun defending yourselves against an attack which isn't really there!

I do feel a little stuck-record-ish but I'll say it again - this is not about 1up. I simply used that as an example for the inconsistencies in rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If we look on the alliance page, we can see quite clearly 1up's number of members in tag: 55.

Now if we go into 1up's public channel (#public) then we can see the topic: 1up Round 18 Recruitment: Closed

Now unless 1up are playing a similar round to the one a few rounds back where they promised to win on a 66% memberbase compared to other alliances (and managed it too) then it seems we have a significant number of their members out of tag.

Now that's fine.

They did it last round.

It'll be done in the future too, I expect.

It's perfectly legitimate.



My concerns arise from the closing of a number of scanners/covoppers though. They were closed because of "persistent covert opping of 1up planets".

These planets were playing for themselves or friends, and weren't in a tag. Yet because they were deemed to be "support planets" because they happened to covert op 1up one too many times, they were closed.

If these were the rules and this was consistent, I (and I'm sure a lot of others) wouldn't mind. It'd be just and fair.



Yet why are 1up allowed to keep these support planets in tow that they haven't added to their tag, when these scanners/covoppers are closed for doing nothing more than targetting one alliance a bit more than others?

It seems like "one rule for 1up, one for everyone else" really
You came here to argue that 1up's untagged members fall under the support planet rule to show a supposed double standard. Not just to make general point about inconsistancy.

And then when people debunk your argument, you just claim they 'dont get it" and declare yourself correct or deny making the argument in the first place.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:31   #61
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
As long as PA team enforces the rules the same way for everyone at any given time, there is no double standard.

And the rules dont have to change for interpretation or enforcement of a rule to change.
So the meaning of each set of rules changes from round to round, according to you?

That's even more inconsistent than it was before! What's the point of the rules if each round they're going to be interpreted in a different way?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:33   #62
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
As long as PA team enforces the rules the same way for everyone at any given time, there is no double standard.
This doesn't really make sense. They can suddenly change the rules in the middle of the round as well
Quote:
Actions which
are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this
EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so
So they could change every picosecond technically.

Quote:
And the rules dont have to change for interpretation or enforcement of a rule to change.
I'm sure we'd all be delighted to be informed of these changes. To be honest in r16 1up did break the rules. However it was intelligent, interesting and nobody really liked the rules anyways so nobody gave a shit.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:33   #63
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
You came here to argue that 1up's untagged members fall under the support planet rule, I know you had a larger point, but plese dont pretend you didnt argue that.
Yes.

My argument was "If those scanners/covops are classed as support planets, then so should the planets out of tag for 1up".

I wasn't calling for them to be closed or anything though. I wanted to know why there were different rules for (effectively) the same situation.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:45   #64
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Yes.

My argument was "If those scanners/covops are classed as support planets, then so should the planets out of tag for 1up".

I wasn't calling for them to be closed or anything though. I wanted to know why there were different rules for (effectively) the same situation.
And that argument was promptly debunked. Waiting longer than other alliances to tag up is not the same situation or effectively the same situation as external cov-op planets. 1ups late tagging planets havent violated the letter or spirit of the support planet rule this round. Whether or not the cov-op planets have is up to PA team and has nothing to do with late tagging.

You are right about inconsistancy in the support planet rule, that rule and its enforcement are an absolute mess. And hey, there may be double standards in enforcement as well. It certainly wouldnt suprise me. But the fact that 1up planets havent been closed for doing something completely different than what the cov-op planets did is hardly evidence of a double standard.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:49   #65
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
So the meaning of each set of rules changes from round to round, according to you?

That's even more inconsistent than it was before! What's the point of the rules if each round they're going to be interpreted in a different way?
According to me? Am I in PA team now?

It is simply a matter of fact that the interpretations and enforcement of rules can change. It happens all over the world all the time with all kinds and varieties of rules. Sometimes such changes are neccessary and positive, often they are arbitrary or malicious.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:50   #66
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
And then when people debunk your argument, you just claim they 'dont get it" and declare yourself correct or deny making the argument in the first place.
You haven't "debunked" my argument though.

You've changed it to something completely different. Seriously, were you bored so thought that AD needed some drama and there wasn't enough 1up being mentioned on the board?

You're defending yourself where there was no attack.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:50   #67
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
And that argument was promptly debunked. Waiting longer than other alliances to tag up is not the same situation or effectively the same situation as external cov-op planets. 1ups late tagging planets havent violated the letter or spirit of the support planet rule this round. Whether or not the cov-op planets have is up to PA team and has nothing to do with late tagging.

You are right about inconsistancy in the support planet rule, that rule and its enforcement are an absolute mess. And hey, there may be double standards in enforcement as well. It certainly wouldnt suprise me. But the fact that 1up planets havent been closed for doing something completely different than what the cov-op planets did is hardly evidence of a double standard.
why do you argue on the matter if you think its all ok? all you do is take focus from the topic, well might be your plan, but the question is still open on the matter
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:51   #68
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific
and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a
planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.

guys guys guys....seriously.

People payed for a Product here. We are talking about Money that has been payed...and 5 Pounds are peanuts for ones and loads for others. If you close People as Support Planets you HAVE TO SPECIFY in your EULA what a support Planet (which benefits an orgs/allys) is.

I. -> Shipdonations (Fleets without Pods suiciding) arent considered as support planets - benefits alliances in terms of value

II. -> Scanners out of tag who jgp/newscan etc. for Alliance Members and make sure that these members dont loose their ships which benefits an alliance aswell.. (Appoco ffs... we asked you if its okay to have scanners out of tag R17 - ND complained -> you said "it is okay...and no break vs. EULA")

III. -> Cov Oppers who are out of Tag and cov op specific planets for an Alliance can be seen as exactly the same as mentioned above in Point II.
You Guys cant close people as you like...depending on your mood or something...I dont know.

But what you guys are doing here is Stealing Money out of peoples pockets and that is the entire truth. People contacted Jolt already as this incident is totally unfair. Then rewrite your EULA and specify what you see as benefitting alliances/organizations for the next Rounds if u want to close People cov opping special planets. Or better:

Close Scanners who JGPing special Planets!

An Answer from PA team would be much appreciated. THIS IS REAL MESS if u dont REOPEN these planets.

Peace.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:52   #69
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Sometimes such changes are neccessary and positive, often they are arbitrary or malicious.
I'm sure if this was the other way around, and some 1up planets had been closed because the rules interpretation had been changed from one round to the next, you and a few others would be on here clamouring for justice.

As the rules interpretation hasn't affected 1up (or, indeed, seems to have benefitted them) then you're quite happy about it.

That isn't objectivity at all. That's bias. Which means your argument in this thread is a tad silly
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:56   #70
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
You haven't "debunked" my argument though.

You've changed it to something completely different. Seriously, were you bored so thought that AD needed some drama and there wasn't enough 1up being mentioned on the board?

You're defending yourself where there was no attack.
I have changed nothing.

You argued that late tagging 1up planets were in violation of a rule.
I argued that they werent in violation of that rule.

I didnt change anything I just disagreed with you. I really dont see why you insist on claiming that I am changing the argument or not understanding the argument just because I disagree with you.

I also dont know why you insist upon talking about attacks and defences. I do not feel under attack, I feel that what you wrote was wrong so I am disagreeing with you. Am I not allowed to disagree with you?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:57   #71
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
why do you argue on the matter if you think its all ok? all you do is take focus from the topic, well might be your plan, but the question is still open on the matter
I post on the forums because I am bored. Does that answer your question?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 20:59   #72
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigone
THIS IS REAL MESS if u dont REOPEN these planets.
its also a mess if they do, either way pateam get flak from either side.
aint no way they can win.
reopening would be akin to admitting defeat in that they cant enforce fair play in the game.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 21:02   #73
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Re: Double Standards

Many of the covert op planets have been reopened - not that anyone will notice, as the ones that caused all the complaints are still closed.

While this is technically against the rules to say so, there's very few high ranking "top" planets that aren't currently in a tag. Unless they're hiding at rank 500+, there's not much of a chance that planets not in a tag are going to come out of nowhere like last round, when I believe everyone complained Omen were making it up.


In hindsight, after the actions yesterday and today (by myself), I could have proceeded far far better.

I will post more later.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 21:05   #74
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'm sure if this was the other way around, and some 1up planets had been closed because the rules interpretation had been changed from one round to the next, you and a few others would be on here clamouring for justice.
Has a rule interpretation been changed? I admit to being completely ignorant of how PA team handled cov-op planets in the past.

Regardless, I am thouroughly unintrested in your predictions of my behavior in hypothetical situations.

Quote:
As the rules interpretation hasn't affected 1up (or, indeed, seems to have benefitted them) then you're quite happy about it.
Yah a bit, but tbh I havent been paying much attention to the cov-op thing since I was lucky enough not to be a major victim of it myself.

Quote:
That isn't objectivity at all. That's bias. Which means your argument in this thread is a tad silly
So because I might be biased, we can assume my arguments are silly?

What kind of petty rhetorical garbage is that Tomkat? I could be the most biased person in the world and still make perfectly valid arguments.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 21:12   #75
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This doesn't make sense though. 1up last round unquestionably had more total players than the alliance limit allows and nothing was done about it. It's inconsistent, which I believe is tk's point.
Isn't there a post by Sid stating that 1up were never over the limit?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 21:17   #76
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Isn't there a post by Sid stating that 1up were never over the limit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Our tactics this round were in no way designed to get around the alliance limitations - just to disguise our true score/roids. At no stage in the round has the total of (active people in 1up tag) + 1ups outside tag been greater than 60.

So who was in our tag if some of our members were outside it? The closest anyone came in this thread was the idea that we'd accepted random applicants. In fact we'd accepted people who weren't playing this round: ex-1ups taking the round off, ex-players who quit rounds ago etc. Essentially people who we could rely on not to do anything stupid (like blab on AD what was happening, or actually play their planets). None of these planets ever sent defence to 1up or attacked with 1up. None of them are even in our arbiter - and looking at their scores I'd say the majority of them don't have a single ship.
There you go. Presumably the last sentence in the first paragraph means that 1up were over the limit if you include these non-active players.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:14   #77
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Re: Double Standards

Players who do not belong to an alliance tag, or have not belonged to one for a period of time, but have had 'a lot' of interactions with an alliance in this time period can be closed for 'unfairly' affecting this 'war game.' Players who choose to play allianceless must be equipped to justify their every action in-game. If they are not, they are closed without warning or any indication in fact that they're doing anything wrong. They are of course scum, and should be persecuted mercilessly!

Great news!

We finally got our answer on the long debated issue of what's the game really about! - Alliance tags.

If you're not in one, you have no right to do anything that is perceived by the support team as having an 'unfair' influence on the game. I was under the impression it was the job of a couple thousand players to decide the reality of the game, not of a team or ten or so to engineer the evolution of the round, casually deciding what does and what does not fit in with what they construe to be a 'fair' reality.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:19   #78
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Re: Double Standards

Since when does the rule of support planets apply to scanners out of tag. Every alliance in here plays with scanners out of tag, and i have never seen closures for it before. But now, when said scanners start to wreak havoc by covert opping other planets, they are suddenly support planets? Just how? What is the criteria by which scanning for an alliance is not supporting them, but on the other side, covert opping for an alliance is?
On the other side, there is no way you can say a covert opper is benefitting one alliance. You can mostly say said he's hurting an alliance.
If i were to cov-op 1up planets all the time, would that make me a support planet for exilition? or for omen? or for subh? or basically for every other alliance in the game. And if you close me for it, then you pretty much would have to close every single planet without an alliance that does anything to harm any other planet. Moreover, how can a mh close a planet for hitting mainly one other alliance? Which authority does he have for saying who a covert opper may or may not hit. It really doesn't matter where he got his intel from, be it exilition, omen or whatever.
And i find it very amusing that a planet comes to the multihunter to get a covert opper closed, when what it really should be doing is buying security centers and putting security as priority. But i guess that would be unfair

In my opinion, this is one big faux pas from the multi hunters.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:25   #79
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Re: Double Standards

If you had the ball to play a war game fairly, without support planets, without Blocks etc, this discussion wouldnt ever exist. Every round its the same, Exi uses support planets and when they are closed they whine about 1up's support planets that as far as I know dont exist. My last word is

BE A MAN AND PRAISE YOUR BALLS
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:33   #80
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Or you could have 100 planets out of tag all attacking and contributing to the alliance, but at the chosen time just cherrypick the highest scores.
And the game code wouldn't let you have another 30 players ready, all 3 fleeting and attakcing with the main alliance whilst not in a tag if you were up to the alliance limit, right? And theres no way these planets could replace lower scoring, in-tag ones in latter parts of the round if you were at the alliance limit, right? And as all thier score would count having not been in an alliance all round this couln't possibly be an advantage for anyone else other than 1up, right?
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Quote:
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:38   #81
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The point has been made that 1up had more people "playing for them" at certain points last round than the alliance limit would allow. However nothing was done to punish this flagrant violation of the rules.
At no point last round did 1up have more than the alliance limit worth of planets actively attacking, defending or scanning. Did every alliance who were at the alliance limit have all their scanners in tag? If not then they don't have a leg to stand on because 1up did.
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Quote:
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mazzelaar has always reminded me of a hungry hungry hippo. Except instead of eating marbles he just bites the heads off new AD posters
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:39   #82
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I do feel a little stuck-record-ish but I'll say it again - this is not about 1up. I simply used that as an example for the inconsistencies in rules.
Why not furnish us with another example then?
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Quote:
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:43   #83
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc

If you're not in one, you have no right to do anything that is perceived by the support team as having an 'unfair' influence on the game. I was under the impression it was the job of a couple thousand players to decide the reality of the game, not of a team or ten or so to engineer the evolution of the round, casually deciding what does and what does not fit in with what they construe to be a 'fair' reality.
That is one thing who is definelly unmotivating about keep playing. Jolt seemed to not care about who deals stuff here and those people who make decisions seems not prepared to deal with public. Ofc as far i know most of those ppl "collaborate" instead doing paid work and that should be taken into consideration but still we need people who are prepared professionals who knows working for public means "What is better for them" and "What they think" not "I like this way and dont care aout what the customers think its how it will be". You see a lot of answers like that on issues who clearly have more people who dont that agree.

maybe some Jolt P.R. training/counseling PA team? That could be included as his job and jolt wouldnt have any cost
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:51   #84
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
And then when people debunk your argument, you just claim they 'dont get it" and declare yourself correct or deny making the argument in the first place.
And you know what?

People come onto this internet forum I use, claim that they've debunked peoples' arguments despite it being plainly obvious that they didn't even read the posts they were replying to, and then insisted that they were correct anyway!


(not referring to anyone here, don't worry!)
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:52   #85
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Re: Double Standards

This is insane. Say I decide I don't like alliance X, maybe they roided me last round or their HC is bald or there's too many foreigners in it. I decide to covert-op them, it's fun, doesn't require too much time sitting in front of the computer. I ask people I know for co-ords of alliance X so I can do this. I get them, covert-op alliance X relentlessly but I get closed as I'm benefitting alliance Y who alliance X is at war with apparently.

Fair enough says I. So I start a new planet. However this time I set up a tag. My new alliance declares war on alliance X and covert-ops them relentlessly. This is allowed.

However maybe it isn't. My alliance isn't really going to gain anything from this and everyone still thinks I'm doing this to benefit alliance Y. Hold on, points out I, what about alliance Z who attacked alliance X last night, they're far behind alliance X, are they just doing this to benefit alliance Y? Yes, say pateam and alliance Z gets closed. Hay kids, we just destroyed politics in PA!
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:53   #86
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Why not furnish us with another example then?
Because I didn't play last round as I was busy going bald, so don't know any examples.

And examples from 2 rounds ago aren't recent enough to be relevant really (although I suppose I could use DLR-not-being-allowed-to-coordinate-with-ND as another inconsistency there).

This round's examples are the most recent and the most relevant.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:55   #87
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Re: Double Standards

Yes Yes, lets make a big scene about details and lets not discuss anything interesting, such as how the round is progressing, alliances and "battles".

Way to go PA random thread poster.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:56   #88
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Re: Double Standards

what are you drivelling on about, idler?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:57   #89
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
At no point last round did 1up have more than the alliance limit worth of planets actively attacking, defending or scanning.
Ah but they served a purpose nonetheless didn't they? If they didn't, then surely you wouldn't have had them? To be honest I doubt that claim over defending. As I recall either yourself or sid stated that 1up did not have DCs and planets organised their own defence if they could. Are you saying that none of these involved those inactive planets intag? It's really just a question of scale.

Quote:
Did every alliance who were at the alliance limit have all their scanners in tag? If not then they don't have a leg to stand on because 1up did.
I agree. 1up's case is just slightly more obvious though, so I'm using that. I'm also not entirely sure if other alliances did have scanners out of tag whereas sid implicitly stated on AD that 1up, including those inactive planets, were over the tag limit.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 22:58   #90
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Because I didn't play last round as I was busy going bald, so don't know any examples.

And examples from 2 rounds ago aren't recent enough to be relevant really (although I suppose I could use DLR-not-being-allowed-to-coordinate-with-ND as another inconsistency there).

This round's examples are the most recent and the most relevant.
So, given that the only alliance all of the above applies to is 1up then you are making 1up the point of your argument and it isn't a case of "the first example that came into my head".

At least have the bollocks to admit levelling accusations at us.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:03   #91
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm interested, if all these covert-op planets got into a new tag and covert-opped 1up planets would they be closed? Would anyone here object to that?
On account of recent events, I'd expect the support team to find any political agenda the alliance might have to be 'unfair.' Presumably, they would then decide 'on balance' that the alliance's political persuasion was invalid/not what they want it to be and then would close the bastards without warning.

Probably because playing god in Planetarion is teh win!
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:04   #92
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ah but they served a purpose nonetheless didn't they? If they didn't, then surely you wouldn't have had them? To be honest I doubt that claim over defending. As I recall either yourself or sid stated that 1up did not have DCs and planets organised their own defence if they could. Are you saying that none of these involved those inactive planets intag? It's really just a question of scale.
I can say without doubt that not a single one of the defences involved one of the inactives in tag being as none of them were in 1up channels and were told implicitly, prio to being added to tag, not to make any sort of effort with thier planet beyond logging in often enough not to get deleted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I agree. 1up's case is just slightly more obvious though, so I'm using that. I'm also not entirely sure if other alliances did have scanners out of tag whereas sid implicitly stated on AD that 1up, including those inactive planets, were over the tag limit.
It's only more obvious because you've just decided to leave scanners out of your original post. Scanners have been out of tag since they first appeared for some alliances making it a more frequent and long term affecting tactic than anything 1up did.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:04   #93
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ah but they served a purpose nonetheless didn't they? If they didn't, then surely you wouldn't have had them? To be honest I doubt that claim over defending. As I recall either yourself or sid stated that 1up did not have DCs and planets organised their own defence if they could. Are you saying that none of these involved those inactive planets intag? It's really just a question of scale.
They were there because they provided false intelligence by leading the other alliances to believe we had added all our members and our average was lower than the truth.

The 'false intelligence' this provided (despite most alliances seeing through this, they did nothing) was as big an effect and as illegal as fake nicking, if not less.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:07   #94
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I can say without doubt that not a single one of the defences involved one of the inactives in tag being as none of them were in 1up channels and were told implicitly, prio to being added to tag, not to make any sort of effort with thier planet beyond logging in often enough not to get deleted.
Fair enough, however my point still remains that they were there to do a specific job and they did it and it helped 1up and this job involved having more total people playing, in whatever fashion, for 1up than the alliance limit would allow.

Quote:
It's only more obvious because you've just decided to leave scanners out of your original post. Scanners have been out of tag since they first appeared for some alliances making it a more frequent and long term affecting tactic than anything 1up did.
I've frequently pointed out that scanners do contravene the support planets rule. I'll forgive you for not noticing this but I would like to point out that all my posts are wonderful and you would gain from reading them. However if you like my position can be left open to include any examples of out-of-tag play you can find including scan planets.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:10   #95
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
They were there because they provided false intelligence by leading the other alliances to believe we had added all our members and our average was lower than the truth.

The 'false intelligence' this provided (despite most alliances seeing through this, they did nothing) was a big effect and as illegal as fake nicking, if not less.
Well first it's difficult to argue over how big an effect it had, all you can really state is that it happened. It happened and the alliance limit was broken. Would you disagree with that statement?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:15   #96
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Fair enough, however my point still remains that they were there to do a specific job and they did it and it helped 1up and this job involved having more total people playing, in whatever fashion, for 1up than the alliance limit would allow.
I'll concede that but then I fail to see how they more effective than a scan planet

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I've frequently pointed out that scanners do contravene the support planets rule.
Not in this thread though, I just thought it worth drawing attention to it

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'll forgive you for not noticing this but I would like to point out that all my posts are wonderful and you would gain from reading them. However if you like my position can be left open to include any examples of out-of-tag play you can find including scan planets.
I'd like that very much, thanks.

I guess TomKat is also going to chastise eXilition for the 200 ticks when all those planets not in the tag were, I assume, attacking. Or is it just because 1up are taking slightly longer than anyone else to tag up fully then we must be cheating in some way?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:17   #97
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
And you know what?

People come onto this internet forum I use, claim that they've debunked peoples' arguments despite it being plainly obvious that they didn't even read the posts they were replying to, and then insisted that they were correct anyway!


(not referring to anyone here, don't worry!)
I responded to Tomkat's arguments, in turn he told me that I just didnt get it, and that he couldnt have a discussion with me because I couldnt be reasonable etc etc. And now you enter the discussion to tell me again just how much I don't get it.

As much as I love being told im wrong and clueless, a discussion of the points at issue seems a more appropriate topic for a discussion forum thread then just how impressed everyone is with how right they are and how stupid everyone who disagrees with them is.
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:18   #98
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
At least have the bollocks to admit levelling accusations at us.
Jeez - sorry mazz, but get over yourself. This isn't about 1up. Stop making it so. I'm not here to try to get some 1up planets closed.

I'd never realised how completely frustrating it is trying to have a decent objective discussion with 1uppers before. You're all (from my experience in this thread) hideously stubborn and have to turn every post into some sort of personal attack.

No wonder AD is dominated by 1up. Everyone else gives up talking to the brick walls
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:18   #99
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I'll concede that but then I fail to see how they more effective than a scan planet
Questions of effectiveness, as I stated in reply to cf, are difficult to draw out at best.

Quote:
Not in this thread though, I just thought it worth drawing attention to it
Sometimes, in my struggle to write the history of the universe in every thread, I miss out certain aspects. Mon cher, my apologies.

Quote:
I'd like that very much, thanks.

I guess TomKat is also going to chastise eXilition for the 200 ticks when all those planets not in the tag were, I assume, attacking. Or is it just because 1up are taking slightly longer than anyone else to tag up fully then we must be cheating in some way?
I know. Isn't it silly how this rule that was created is so clearly not applied in certain situations just because there was historical momentum behind them?
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Unread 23 Jul 2006, 23:19   #100
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Well first it's difficult to argue over how big an effect it had, all you can really state is that it happened. It happened and the alliance limit was broken. Would you disagree with that statement?
Given that you actually quoted Sid agreeing with that statement then I'm not entirely sure what point you're proving here.
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