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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 08:22   #1
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Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I've not been involved with 'traditional' alliances since r27, but back then alliances were still attempting to fence gals. Some allies even had a limit of 2 or 3 members per buddypack.

Is this round enough evidence to show allies that shoving a lot of your members into a single gal is a good idea?

Maybe it's to do with the ridiculous size of the gals, but the quantity of Asc in their gals suggests otherwise; over half of a gal's members in the same ally. In the t10 gals there're 3 Asc, 2 ND, 1 DLR fortress and 3 more 'traditional' gals.

It makes galaxies stronger and if a handful of newer players/players from smaller alliances do get into gals, they're in a stronger community. It's a good thing, right?
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 08:55   #2
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I thought fortress galaxies had a more aggressive exile policy, but this turns out not to be the case. On average, this round, each galaxy has exiled 31.5 planets (min 11, max 65, mean 30). The 6 fortress galaxies in the top10 average 31.8 exiles (min 26, max 40, mean 34), which is an non-significant difference.

The exile policy being my only potential argument, I can hardly argue against fortress galaxies now.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 10:13   #3
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

fortress gals tend to have people spending more to exile in, other players that exile are just happy to end in a good gal.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 10:23   #4
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

It's not as simple as 'fortress galaxies work' or 'don't work'. We had one fortress galaxy fail spectacularly (11.6, the shitty quitgal). And while 3 of our heavy gals are top10, we also have 3 gals with >8 members outside the top10. It's no guarantee.

I'd say that there are very definite advantages that have a good synergy effect with other Ascendancy policies. Whether these advantages play out the same way in an alliance with appointed DCs and idiot members who don't build solid fleets isn't really for me to say.

One of the advantages for us is that way more members ground attack fleets to defend when a fortress gal has heavy incoming. Our 3 biggest gals swapped defense like this quite a lot. I think the primary advantage is aligned interest. If you have a fencegal, what is in your interest may not be in the interest of your alliance. With a fortress gal it's pretty simple. What is in your alliance's interest is in your galaxy's interest.

Edit: Oh yeah, and outside of wars the political protection offered by being in a fortress galaxy is great. Everyone knows that galraiding 2.10/6.1/7.8 is tantamount to planet targeting Ascendancy, so can't really do it without risking fallout. This protects our non-Ascendancy galmates (yes, we have some!) allowing them to grow larger fleets which they in turn use more aggressively ingal when they see how much ingal backing they get (at least it tends to get like this in the fortress galaxies I've been in, I doubt it's always like this).
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 10:46   #5
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

It also depends what amount of members you consider a gal must have before it is a "fortress galaxy" i mean its not hard to get at least 7 members with 5 signing up and 2 late signing.

I much prefer fortress play and generally it is more useful in war although a whole gal gets hit the whole gal is grounded. None of this i cant defend you bollocks. It is fun where it gets to the point where alliances just choose to hit guys in galaxys who wouldnt def them. HI THEAM AND BA!
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 11:04   #6
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Mimicking most of what has been said would be useless so I'll try not to (but i agree with most of it), but having gone random two rounds and been in a top 10 ascendancy fortress gal both rounds it has come clear to me that the success also comes from having a strong, active leader. Last round I was ingal with Inforza, Cain and others. This round got Smasher head of the table. I think fortress gals with a strong leader who knows how to crossdefend well/plan attacks/ keep everyone in check is what makes it work. Fortress gals fall through when you have leadership struggles and someone isn't a team player (this rounds 11.6?)
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 11:24   #7
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I think Game + Caj is autofail tbh
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:01   #8
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I think Game + Caj is autofail tbh
What are you doing in a thread about "Fortress gals" fenceface?
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:06   #9
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I see mainly posts from players the top alliances here. So, the observations thus far are probably somewhat coloured. Of course, my observations are also coloured, but a different colour.

One thing is for sure: the current galaxy size is detrimental for the game. I have been/am in a fenced gal this round, and tbh I do not like it. And the fence grew with time. Thus, what you have now is: fortress gals, fenced gals, and random gals. Both fortress and fenced galaxies are detrimental for game play imo.
Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6 and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly, thus that is no good thing imo. Fenced gals can not be stopped, however, the galaxy size can decrease so there will be more galaxies and fences are less prominent.

Second, what is positive for one alliance (Jesterina --> aligned interest/protection outside of wars) I would analyse it to be detrimental to the game as a whole as well. I understand it must be wonderful to be able to say "hah, nobody attacks us coz they know they'll get pwned if they do", but I think it stagnates gameplay. Especially in this small playerbase.

Third, Gate's assumption that the extent of "fortressness" of a galaxy determines the strength of community is nonsense tbh. I know for instance of a galaxy called "Mercenaries" which has a strong community, but they are not a fortress galaxy, and to a lesser extent fenced.
Community is determined by people, not by a mostly single alliance composition of a galaxy.

Thus, my answer to your question whether it is good is a resounding "no".

To mz: your statement that there is a non-significant difference is false. Your n (number of observations) of the second group was 6. In statistics as a rule of thumb at least 20 observations are needed to validate it as a normal distribution. Your observation is thus not valid as you cannot draw conclusions on this comparison.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:19   #10
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I didn't validate it as a normal distribution though. Further, the averages I calculated weren't observations, but the real values of the entire universe (not in the PA sense of the word). I am not sure if that matters though.

In any case, my aim was to see if top fortress galaxies exile more than normal galaxies. My method may not hold up in a scientific environment, but for my purposes they were accurate enough. I'll call it a preliminary result if that makes you feel better.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:20   #11
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I did not validate it as a normal distribution though. Further, the averages I calculated weren't observations, but the real values of the entire universe (not in the PA sense of the word). I am not sure if that matters though.

In any case, my aim was to see if top fortress galaxies exile more than normal galaxies. My method may not hold up in a scientific environment, but for my purposes they were accurate enough. I'll call it a preliminary result if that makes you feel better.
By comparing the means you implicitly did. Observations can be real values.
I can agree with calling it a preliminary result. This gives leeway for other explanations (which are there imo). I feel better, thanks
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:34   #12
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6 and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly, thus that is no good thing imo. Fenced gals can not be stopped, however, the galaxy size can decrease so there will be more galaxies and fences are less prominent.
11:1 may be more of a Wooden palisade gal than a Stone citadel gal, but having 9 asc we probably count as a fortress gal, Orbit has gal raided us plenty, tho not within the last week and a half or so so what u say is nonsense; asc has not even contemplated warring with Orbit for consistantly hitting one of its fortresses.

PS. where are you expecting to find a sample of 20 fortress gals in the t10?
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:44   #13
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I don't believe fence gals really even work anymore, since in the past couple of rounds most allys have just decided they'll hit gals with less than 2 or 3 of the members in.

I've also seen Ascendancy/Omen hit the non allied planets in their fortress gals.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:46   #14
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
11:1 may be more of a Wooden palisade gal than a Stone citadel gal, but having 9 asc we probably count as a fortress gal, Orbit has gal raided us plenty, tho not within the last week and a half or so so what u say is nonsense; asc has not even contemplated warring with Orbit for consistantly hitting one of its fortresses.

PS. where are you expecting to find a sample of 20 fortress gals in the t10?
First your last remark: where did I say that or imply that? I did not. Still, my argument stands: you need 20+ observations or you need to use a different analytical technique to compare groups.

9 planets in a 25 planet gal is not a fortress. As Gate stated: more than half a gal = a fortress. I think that is reasonable to say, although it can be disputed of course.
Also, that Asc did not contemplate hitting Orbit has probably to do with that there are no serious gains in that :P
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:48   #15
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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First your last remark: where did I say that or imply that? I did not. Still, my argument stands: you need 20+ observations or you need to use a different analytical technique to compare groups.
No you don't. What mz did was perfectly acceptable.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:51   #16
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
I see mainly posts from players the top alliances here. So, the observations thus far are probably somewhat coloured. Of course, my observations are also coloured, but a different colour.

One thing is for sure: the current galaxy size is detrimental for the game. I have been/am in a fenced gal this round, and tbh I do not like it. And the fence grew with time. Thus, what you have now is: fortress gals, fenced gals, and random gals. Both fortress and fenced galaxies are detrimental for game play imo.
Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6 and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly, thus that is no good thing imo. Fenced gals can not be stopped, however, the galaxy size can decrease so there will be more galaxies and fences are less prominent.

Second, what is positive for one alliance (Jesterina --> aligned interest/protection outside of wars) I would analyse it to be detrimental to the game as a whole as well. I understand it must be wonderful to be able to say "hah, nobody attacks us coz they know they'll get pwned if they do", but I think it stagnates gameplay. Especially in this small playerbase.

Third, Gate's assumption that the extent of "fortressness" of a galaxy determines the strength of community is nonsense tbh. I know for instance of a galaxy called "Mercenaries" which has a strong community, but they are not a fortress galaxy, and to a lesser extent fenced.
Community is determined by people, not by a mostly single alliance composition of a galaxy.

Thus, my answer to your question whether it is good is a resounding "no".

To mz: your statement that there is a non-significant difference is false. Your n (number of observations) of the second group was 6. In statistics as a rule of thumb at least 20 observations are needed to validate it as a normal distribution. Your observation is thus not valid as you cannot draw conclusions on this comparison.
Meh, a fortress of 10 out of 10 is still a fortress.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 12:58   #17
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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No you don't. What mz did was perfectly acceptable.
If he had stated that it is likely that there are quite possibly different explanations, yes. He did not. Later he did.
If you wish to be more sure about your conclusion other techniques may apply or a larger sample must be used.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 13:00   #18
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Meh, a fortress of 10 out of 10 is still a fortress.
Of course exiling could be limited or removed as well :-) And 10 planets are easier to hit than 25, don't you agree?
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 13:30   #19
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
9 planets in a 25 planet gal is not a fortress. As Gate stated: more than half a gal = a fortress. I think that is reasonable to say, although it can be disputed of course.
Also, that Asc did not contemplate hitting Orbit has probably to do with that there are no serious gains in that :P
A fortress is whatever the alliance that is in that gal thinks it is, in this case 11:1 has been thought of as a fortress (probably the worst fortress, but a fortress still) by asc, it is not our fault that when there have been exiles they have tended to go against us, we spent weeks clearing spaces and getting no ascs in.
we are also a fortress because it is the ascs in charge of the gal, there are no alliances to contest this as the majority of our actives are asc... we have 4 IRC active non ascs and 7 IRC active ascs, that to me is more than half the gal asc.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 14:25   #20
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Can i join an Asc fortress gal?
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 14:27   #21
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I wouldn't have you. You crash a lot.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 14:31   #22
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Not when im playing for planet/gal/ally win.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 14:36   #23
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

U would not want to be in 11:1, we are inactive
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 14:58   #24
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Also, that Asc did not contemplate hitting Orbit has probably to do with that there are no serious gains in that :P
You don't really gain as much from going to war with another ally as you do if you were just galraiding... So it's the same for every ally. The only time you'd benefit is if they had fat galaxies (3:4 and 12:5 anyone?) which you can hit as retaliation, and actually gain roids.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 16:11   #25
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Also, that Asc did not contemplate hitting Orbit has probably to do with that there are no serious gains in that :P
Correct. Hitting you (or any other non-top alliance) halves our relative growth compared to hitting our most serious competitor.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 16:22   #26
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
Can i join an Asc fortress gal?
You where in one, but you decided to leave for another gal
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 18:09   #27
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Also, that Asc did not contemplate hitting Orbit has probably to do with that there are no serious gains in that :P
obviously, I was not asking Y asc didnt contemplate it, but my post was refuting a statement U earlier made the point that smaller allies wouldnt attack a fortress gal because it would invite a war;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6 and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly,
so dont U undermine ur own prior statement.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 19:01   #28
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Lets be fair here. The reason why we see less fence gals is because its not really possible to fence anymore.
The community is too smal, the galaxies are too big.

an alliance cant really have a policy where it doesnt attack a gal with 1-2 members in it. It just wont work, like it used to do.

If galaxies somehow had decreased to 10-15. We would see the fence gals again.

Nothing has been changed, nothing has been proven about fortress gals being awesome. Its just not possible to play the most efficient way for the gal with mass fence anymore. It just creates drama, whine and some more whine.

fortress gals is a product of increased gal sizes and a decreasing universe.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 20:03   #29
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
obviously, I was not asking Y asc didnt contemplate it, but my post was refuting a statement U earlier made the point that smaller allies wouldnt attack a fortress gal because it would invite a war; so dont U undermine ur own prior statement.
I did not undermine my own statement. That particular statement consisted of 2 parts:
"Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6"
and
"and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly"

11:1 I did not classify as a fortress galaxy, as I followed Gate's criterion of half or more of the gal = 1 alli --> Fortress galaxy.
Booji himself perceived it as a fortress galaxy. You probably too. I did not.
Different definitions perhaps of a fortress gal
Hence, I did not undermine myself afaik.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 20:23   #30
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

it seems totally silly to go on gate's criteria for deciding if you are hitting an asc fortress, if your decisions whether to attack a gal was based if you were likely to be attacked back by asc (I assume they were not) as asc would be much more likely to use its own criteria than gate's!
I dont like private wars so attacking you back something I would not ask for anyway unless you got considerably more persistent than you were, although it was annoying that you picked days where asc was under very heavy attack elsewhere thus denying us defence - I imagine this was intentional.

if asc had decided to retal all that would have mattered would be asc's perception of a fortress not yours or gate's.

Its not really a matter of 'this is a fortress' so there will be a response, it is much more about the number of members you are hitting. The idea of the gal being a fortress does not matter, its about the perception of 'your' alliance hitting alot of 'us' this does not have to be by hitting a gal with alot of 'us' it can be spread across the universe. The advantage of a galaxy that is known to have alot of ppl from one alliance in it is that it is obvious when you are attacking that you are attacking that alliance. If you were not worried about hitting a gal with 8 asc member why be worried about hitting 10 or 15 or 20... you state a random cut off point that is senseless except for trying to exclude 11 1 so that your argument stacks up when it does not.

if 'they' attacked 8 of 'us' across 8 different galaxies would they' expect a response?

as an example of differing perceptions: in round 28 TGV was attacking what we believed to be random galaxies while avoiding heavy ND gals due to nap, and gals with lots of asc members (at the time we defined that as 3) due to an avoidance agreement. This lead us to hitting quite a few vision in our random daily gal raids. We did not realise this and did not mean any hostile intent, however vision retaled us with 3 days of ptargeting because they thought we had targeted them.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 21:02   #31
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

On a sidenote, Membrivio, by those standards there are only 2 fortress galaxies: 6.1 and 2.10.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 21:07   #32
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
it seems totally silly to go on gate's criteria for deciding if you are hitting an asc fortress, if your decisions whether to attack a gal was based if you were likely to be attacked back by asc (I assume they were not) as asc would be much more likely to use its own criteria than gate's!
I dont like private wars so attacking you back something I would not ask for anyway unless you got considerably more persistent than you were, although it was annoying that you picked days where asc was under very heavy attack elsewhere thus denying us defence - I imagine this was intentional.
We do not do politics. We hit when we want who we want. We had a total of about 7/8 possible targets as an alliance.
Our decisions weren't made on where Asc was and where not. It was that they were too big for us to hit and with the amount of fleets we have per night we could not even send 2 waves per planet. Which would have made them cover it probably purely by ingal defence.
And of course everyone has its own criteria to attack where and where not. That were our criteria.
What it does point at is that galaxy size is too large. It also points at the differences between lower and upper tier alliances.

Quote:
if asc had decided to retal all that would have mattered would be asc's perception of a fortress not yours or gate's.
Indeed. Thus, according to them it was not a fortress?

Quote:
Its not really a matter of 'this is a fortress' so there will be a response, it is much more about the number of members you are hitting. The idea of the gal being a fortress does not matter, its about the perception of 'your' alliance hitting alot of 'us' this does not have to be by hitting a gal with alot of 'us' it can be spread across the universe. The advantage of a galaxy that is known to have alot of ppl from one alliance in it is that it is obvious when you are attacking that you are attacking that alliance. If you were not worried about hitting a gal with 8 asc member why be worried about hitting 10 or 15 or 20... you state a random cut off point that is senseless except for trying to exclude 11 1 so that your argument stacks up when it does not.
Look, to you the idea of a fortress gal does not matter. For us it does. You have a perception, I have a perception. Your perception is as "senseless" as mine.
So, you are right. Lets keep that point arbitrary. A consequence of being a fortress is imo that ingal defence and such is better. Maybe because you were a slacky gal I didnt count you as a fortress. Fortresses are strong and resilient. You were more like an army camp perhaps... hard enough already for us this round though!

Quote:
if 'they' attacked 8 of 'us' across 8 different galaxies would they' expect a response?
This is not relevant. You were all in 1 galaxy = galaxy raid. Galaxy raids are fairly standard, I believe.

Quote:
as an example of differing perceptions: in round 28 TGV was attacking what we believed to be random galaxies while avoiding heavy ND gals due to nap, and gals with lots of asc members (at the time we defined that as 3) due to an avoidance agreement. This lead us to hitting quite a few vision in our random daily gal raids. We did not realise this and did not mean any hostile intent, however vision retaled us with 3 days of ptargeting because they thought we had targeted them.
Round 28 had more galaxies I believe than this round. Also, it had smaller galaxies. I am not sure, though.
That you attacked Vision heavy gals and you got a response may be more viable then as the situation was different than this round. Would you agree?

P.s. I agree with Wishmasters last statement.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 21:10   #33
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
I did not undermine my own statement. That particular statement consisted of 2 parts:
"Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6"
and
"and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly"

11:1 I did not classify as a fortress galaxy, as I followed Gate's criterion of half or more of the gal = 1 alli --> Fortress galaxy.
Booji himself perceived it as a fortress galaxy. You probably too. I did not.
Different definitions perhaps of a fortress gal
Hence, I did not undermine myself afaik.
I'm pretty sure that in Asc, we consider 11:1 an "Asc gal" and it seems to be the one that got most attention the last time we were attacked by the rest of the top 5 (they didn't even hit 6:10, and then ended up taking turns on 11:1 because they couldn't roid any other asc gals with 6+ members)
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 21:14   #34
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
On a sidenote, Membrivio, by those standards there are only 2 fortress galaxies: 6.1 and 2.10.
we have attacked them once:
On 2:10 - LT: 88 (3 waves)
On 6:1 - LT: 136 (2 waves)
Says enough? :P

I don't know whether my standard should be applied or not. As I also wrote to Booji:
Lets keep that point arbitrary. A consequence of being a fortress is imo that ingal defence and such is better.

Maybe, I was too unclear about my own perceptions. o.O
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 21:18   #35
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
What it does point at is that galaxy size is too large. It also points at the differences between lower and upper tier alliances.
You don't have to keep driving the point home, they're already fixing it for next round. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
we have attacked them once:
On 2:10 - LT: 88 (3 waves)
On 6:1 - LT: 136 (2 waves)
Says enough? :P
At the time I don't think there were more than 6 Ascendancy planets in either of those galaxies.
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 21:27   #36
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Man! you did hit me i remember! i had 13 xan attackers.

ALL faked, i finished the day with 14k illusions as a zik
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Unread 1 Apr 2009, 22:15   #37
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
You don't really gain as much from going to war with another ally as you do if you were just galraiding... So it's the same for every ally. The only time you'd benefit is if they had fat galaxies (3:4 and 12:5 anyone?) which you can hit as retaliation, and actually gain roids.
Well tbh, this week ASC finally attacked these galaxies (and 7:2) fullout with all their pets, escorts and galmates combined (our gal, 3:4, had roughly 200 hostile fleets thrown at us, roughly 50/60% ASC, the rest CT/Omen/Orbit/VGN/HR/hirr/XVX). We all know the fightingspirit of a lot of ppl had already been broken in or shorty before the weekend, when half the universe decided to crash their fleets. We had only half as much crossdefence fleets in our gal as last time we had severe incomings, from CT/Omen, a while back. Result was as you all have seen a staggering roidloss of 14k/19k/20k on 3 top6 galaxies in 3 days.

I doubt this would have been possible when this all still really mattered (let's face it, top ally/galaxy/planet are without serious screwups of the ppl involved, pretty secure). A few weeks back activity was a lot higher, in galaxy and alliance, so roiding any other alliance than ASC has become a lot simpler because most of us cba waking up to send defence etc.

3:4 has 7 ND players, 5 in t100 and 2 just below that, when CT/Omen attacked us, 2 weeks back (still the same btw). Our planets had up to 8 waves each. Still, ND lost less than 1k roids on the 7 of us, while we had over 15k roids combined. CT/Omen captured a total 5k roids combined, not very much considering the number of fleets they used for it. I'm quite sure they could have gotten more roids from less tough "non-fortress" galaxies, also because the 7 of us crossdeffed the hell out of each other.

2 days back we had 20k roids combined, and we lost near 7k of those. The number of waves was not very different from the CT/Omen incs. Some were maybe a bit more heavy (dare I say it once again, due all slipstreamlaunchers from other alliances), but waves got though that would have never gone though 2 weeks earlier. So i think the successes of roiding the fortress galaxies is largely due ppl not caring anymore and getting inactive, rather than being the ultimate weapon in alliance wars.
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R7: 15:14 | R8: 34:4 / 52:10 ¤ | R9: 16:2 | R9.5: 34:6 / 41:6 ¤
R10: 2:2 | R10.5: 15:4 | R11: 28:8 | R12: 22:9

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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 00:20   #38
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
We do not do politics. We hit when we want who we want. We had a total of about 7/8 possible targets as an alliance.
Our decisions weren't made on where Asc was and where not. It was that they were too big for us to hit and with the amount of fleets we have per night we could not even send 2 waves per planet.
WHAT!!! If u dont care if its a heavily asc gal then fortresses make no difference to U as a little alliance Y did u post that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6 and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly
either one or the other is true for you, if the former than my initial reposte was correct, if the latter then what are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
Look, to you the idea of a fortress gal does not matter. For us it does. You have a perception, I have a perception. A consequence of being a fortress is imo that ingal defence and such is better. Maybe because you were a slacky gal I didnt count you as a fortress.
It seems to me U have a different idea of a fortress altogether then, one which the term fortress actually fits better but which has nothing to do with alliance affiliations; one that says that a well organized gal is a fortress, in the literal sense of the term i cant fault you, but well organised gals are not a new phenomenon or necessarily a uniform single alliance entity. However this is not Fortress as it is meant in this thread which is a galaxy with an unusually high concentration of planets of one alliance. It may be a shoddy and ramshakle example but 11 1 meets the latter criteria (but not the former).
Thus you are essentially saying you avoid a well organised gal, certainly quite wise imo. I was originally taking you to task for saying that the strong political affiliation of a 'fortress' galaxy would result in little incomings because of fear of political consequences by pointing out you ignored your own dictum by hitting a strongly politically affiliated gal several times. Note the lack of reaction also tells against your initial argument of fear of a political kickback. Whether 11 1 is a strong gal is therefore irrelevent, indeed the weakness of 11 1 makes it a far better test for that particular argument than say 2 10 who would not be hit due to their organization as well as their politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Is this round enough evidence to show allies that shoving a lot of your members into a single gal is a good idea?
Conclusion: Fortress Galaxies (in the new sense of being stacked with one alliance) do not necessarily result in anything detrimental to small alliances; nor does it per-se result in a better gal rather it is the fact that they are usually better organised (as a result of greater willingness to make sacrifices for ally mates, ingal DCs efficiently allocating resources etc) that results in their strong showing.

The political and the organisational aspects are two separate and independent things.
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 12:20   #39
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Fortress galaxies are not suited for attack by any alliance under top6 and a top 6 alliance who will attack will know it is in war directly
Quote:
Originally Posted by You
either one or the other is true for you, if the former than my initial reposte was correct, if the latter then what are you talking about?
I think with what will come below, we shall understand each other better. But, I do have to point you at the fact that Orbit = #7. Thus, we do not attack a fortress gal because of their strength. For a top 6 alli it might be seen a political act as there is more to be gained by a top allliance
So, I think both parts can be true at the same time. However, 1 applies to the lower tier alliances, the other for the upper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Conclusion: Fortress Galaxies (in the new sense of being stacked with one alliance) do not necessarily result in anything detrimental to small alliances; nor does it per-se result in a better gal rather it is the fact that they are usually better organised (as a result of greater willingness to make sacrifices for ally mates, ingal DCs efficiently allocating resources etc) that results in their strong showing.
The political and the organisational aspects are two separate and independent things.
I agree with your remark about perceptions of fortresses. Perhaps I mashed the things up together. But there is a reason for that, I think.
First of all, it might have to do with purely this round that fortress gals are so strong:
1. alliance size has been large in a small playerbase --> more resources
2. gal size --> more resources (yes mz, I know it will be changed \o/ :P). These two points together may have made them stronger than before.

I do think, however, that I can assert that the two aspects (politics and organisation) are interdependent as well. In general, the top 6 alliances (upper tier) are more and/or better organised. This might trickle down to the way a galaxy is "managed". (cf. my reaction of: wtf is an ingal DC? )
Thus, in that sense it may be an interdependency. That is an observation I make.
I dare to claim that the contingencies (alli size/galsize/politics) influencing the fortresses were strongly affecting their strength (and stamina) this round.
I think next round may already be better as the ingal resources will be less (and alli size will be somewhat less too) which thus reduces the strength of the fortress. The organisational benefit stays.

All together, my conclusion is similar to yours: fortresses are not necessarily detrimental. Their strength depends on the fit with the contingencies. By their affiliation with one alliance it may mean they are better organised. That is not a bad thing. But the other two contingencies made them imo too strong.
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 15:38   #40
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

I like by the way how Ascendancy is run rather 'flat', but how their fortress galaxies are run like military divisions in this case by JBG, Cardi, Smasher (with bread backing up JBG if needed). (The Military division is in comparison with how ascendancy itself is ran. It is highly likely that it is still less militaristic then for example an 'Omen run Fortress Galaxy'.)
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 15:57   #41
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

English sucks.
A fortress is a fortress, something hard to attack, something easily defended.

In the past, successful fence galaxies could have been called fortresses (because they were, see definition above and below), but the fence moniker was preferred (which is also true).

When single-alliance successful galaxies started appearing (I believe Ascendancy were the first to do this (ignoring pre buddy-pack times etc), it's irrelevant if this is wrong though), the fence term no longer applied, so the only remaining description was fortress (again see above/below definitions).

Both types of galaxy were fortresses, only one was a fence.

In recent rounds though, politics and general alliance game play has changed such that fence galaxies are no longer successful. People are no longer allowed to cross defend with other alliances as freely as in previous rounds. It's true that there is still a period in which fence galaxies are successful, but this is more down to being left untouched and not facing serious incoming, so they are allowed to grow. But there comes a point where these galaxies' fences are rattled, and things begin to crumble: make no mistake, given a few more days extra to the end of the round (perhaps the 4 days taken due to rollbacks) and we'd see 6.1 win.

So please stop misusing this fortress term. The definition is quite clear, and in the PA context, a fortress galaxy is one able to successfully crossdefend, thus making it well defended, hard to attack. Fence galaxies are no longer able to become a fortress, and any success fence galaxies have will be short-lived.
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 16:02   #42
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
I believe Ascendancy were the first to do this (ignoring pre buddy-pack times etc)
Correct.
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 16:40   #43
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

First and only, on reflection.
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 16:46   #44
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That probably wasn't the first. The winning galaxy in Round 14 had a huge number of 1up players, although I'm not sure if they exiled so much with the intention of having a load of 1up players in the gal like 9:10 and the current Ascendancy galaxies.
(also, NOT ASCENDANCY. Win!)


Also I don't understand what Membrivio is arguing, he said that galaxies that have a lot of players from one alliance are bad for the game because smaller allies can't hit them without appearing to be hostile to the alliance these gals belong to. It has been said that Orbit have hit 11:1 many times and Ascendancy still don't see them as hostile... I really don't understand what the rest of your posts are saying
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 17:22   #45
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
That probably wasn't the first. The winning galaxy in Round 14 had a huge number of 1up players
It had five in the t100. This is fairly average for a winning gal in a round dominated by one alliance.
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Unread 2 Apr 2009, 22:20   #46
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Indeed. It was mainly Elviz's friends exiling in that round.

The r19 gal with Ascendancy was more like an alliance fortress. The in gal defence coverage then was just amazing.
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Unread 3 Apr 2009, 18:07   #47
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desse View Post
Indeed. It was mainly Elviz's friends exiling in that round.

The r19 gal with Ascendancy was more like an alliance fortress. The in gal defence coverage then was just amazing.

Hmmm.. Fact that the primary BP of the gal is 3 1up already, finishing with 5 isn't far away.
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Unread 3 Apr 2009, 18:46   #48
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Re: Alliances and Fortress galaxies

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
Not when im playing for planet/gal/ally win.
ermmmm i think people would rather contemplate from dying of FACE AIDS then let you in gal
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