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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 16:19   #1
JonnyBGood
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The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6960304.stm


I'm really quite delighted that the BBC have managed to write a mildly objective article on this issue. That a mainstream news broadcaster can raise genuine moral questions beyond issues of legality is really refreshing. Far too often in situations such as these you get people criticising others for "finding new ways of stealing" without genuinely reflecting upon whether or not this is actually what is happening in this case.

In terms of the article itself I'd tend towards agreeing but there is a point with slowing down the connection which makes it different to some other examples mentioned.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 17:07   #2
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

I find the article+comments quite interesting, since it gives a really nice illustration of the way humans cope with new situations by trying to form analogies with what they already know, regardless of how unsuitable these analogies may be. Its also interesting that the way people frame their first analogy often tends to determine the way they will eventually view the new issue, since they can end up with a mental picture in their head which sometimes blocks them from seeing things as they are. Watching arguments between people with different mental pictures/analogies is painful because they will just talk past each other for hours without touching on the fundamentals of their disagreement :/

Quote:
You're walking down the street in Hypotheticalville and in front of you is a gentleman who, when he walks, spills seemingly endless torrents of golden coins on to the pavement behind him. He seems unconcerned by this and you notice that if not picked up, these magic coins quickly evaporate. Is it moral for you to pick a few up?
Quote:
"If you steal a silver Mont Blanc pen it's theft but if it's an ordinary ballpoint pen or a pencil it is assumed you can take it.
Quote:
But casual and occasional use while travelling is a bit like reading your book from the light coming out from someone's window. It's like eating someone's leftovers."
Quote:
What if you pay to have a water supply piped to your house, and pay a monthly service fee, and perhaps even get metered on your water usage - and then someone secretly taps into your water pipe?
Quote:
More like reading someone's newspaper over their shoulder on the Tube
Quote:
If someone leaves their front door wide open is it wrong to go in a steal the television?
Quote:
Those who leave their connections open have as little right to complain as somebody who parks their car and then leaves the door wide open.
Quote:
In a certain far-off country, potatoes are so cheap that no one buys them as they need: they simply have a load delivered every day, and the ones they don't need they leave out in the street. what can be the harm in picking them up and taking them home?
Using someone's wireless internet is of course not exactly like any of these things. It does share some features with most of them though.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 Aug 2007 at 17:36.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 22:42   #3
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Using someone's wireless internet is of course not exactly like any of these things. It does share some features with most of them though.
This is true, although analogies seem like the only practical way to understand certain things (I am speaking for myself here). To use an analogy based on your point on analogies - if I learn a new word (foriegn or English) then for a period all might have to represent this word is other words. But words are not usually perfectly synonomous with anything and so while lady=woman=girl (sort of) there are nuances one needs to develop to master a language.

Analogies can similarly develop, although this process seems to break down in debates as people cling to whatever they have as a representation of the problem at the time. The rules seem to be that analogies will then become shit unless people
i) Aren't too precious about them
ii) Don't endlessly debate the (irrelevant) specifics
iii) Are open about why x is kind of like y because of z (where z is a fundamental point at the heart of the discussion).

So you might be against wireless "theft" because...
- You might just dislike the idea of other people getting stuff for free (especially if it's off your own back)
- You don't want your bandwidth horribly throttled and thus internet experience adversely affected by the interaction.
- You might view this as a tragedy of the commons type situation - while we could all hang off the one internet connection off one guy in Bristol we'd all have a shit time and no-one would bother investing anything into the next generation of pornography dissemination.
- You might have (valid) privacy concerns that the person could access your data, see what you're doing, etc.

And so reading the paper over someone's shoulder is perhaps a pertinent analogy if your main concern is someone getting something for nothing. But then the general acceptance of shoulder-reading is precisely because newspapers do not face slow down based on the number of people looking at the page, nor are they likely to have someone's private data in them or mean someone can gain access to your eyes.

And thus, the most important rule:
iv) Do not agree with a silly exaggeration of your analogy simply to appear consistent.

If you had a magic tree in your garden that had unlimited apples on it, which would never wither or die, and all the people in the world could have as much fruit as they wanted without any other problems (be they ecological, economic or dietary) AND your garden/front lawn/local motorway was never crowded/damaged by this endless fruit picking mob AND you were never personally inconvenienced/damaged by this AND you had a promise from God himself that this tree would be there forever more (etc, etc) then of course that would change the dynamics of a legal/ethical/economic system based on scarcity and labour investment. In fact, you'd have to be a Grade A cock to want to restrict this wonderous thing. But you do sometimes hear people baited into saying something like "No, even then private property should apply and I'd build a wall to keep those scum out!".

These people miss the point that private property (as a basic principle) exists precisely because any realistic scenario would involve negative side-effects of one form or another to the tree's guardian/owner.

Wireless internet "theft" (sigh) is not ideal behaviour in the longer term for a range of reasons - most of which are specific to this issue. But it's also silly to equate it with certain other theft type crimes - again because it has specific features which makes it dissimilar. I've had to fix countless machines where people were using one of their neighbours connections - usually blissfully unaware (although I enjoyed telling my colleagues husband - a CID Police Officer that he was probably committing a crime).
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 00:01   #4
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

I purposely set-up an unsecured wireless network a while back mainly because I liked my neighbours. If I found them using up all my bandwidth I would have ceased this though. But the point is I allowed it.

Ideally, all wireless hubs owners would have to decide its acceptability and extent beforehand with the hub indicating this. But without this you have to decide if the owner is the free-loving kind of wireless owner or the anti-sharing kind of wireless owner. Therefore, you have to decide what kind of person they "should" be

If you want to get down to the property-rights of the question, I'd say it's wrong to encroach onto someone's paid-for service without their express permission because I believe humans are at their most-base selfish and if you assume anything else you're implying correct behaviour.

I would like it if people were brought to the idea of community ownership through rational argument; but if you enforce community-ownership (or borrowing in this case) you evoke resentment and that ends up detrimental to any ideals you may have about community ownership.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 01:39   #5
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Incidentally, I stopped sharing my connection because of some stories I heard about users connecting to open hubs for malevolent ends (the moral of this story is fear your neighbour!). As I recall, some US citizen tried to use the argument "but my connection was open; anyone could have committed this crime" in court but got fcuked upside the head pretty badly a while back.

More incidentally, even secured wireless connections are easy targets. Most laptops can break WEP security in a couple of minutes and with enough time and activity WPA security, too. I think this is why the really security conscious use VPNs.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 01:55   #6
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I'd say it's wrong to encroach onto someone's paid-for service without their express permission because I believe humans are at their most-base selfish and if you assume anything else you're implying correct behaviour.
"Encroach" is a loaded term though. The ethics of private property only make sense because either :
i) A private thing's (be it wireless internet, or a road or similar) value/utility would be reduced (or the cost of maintaining would be increased) as more and more people used it.
or
ii) You have the ability to restrict people's utilisation of said private thing.

(Or more frequently both.) If wireless internet was impossible to secure physically, and if there was limitless bandwidth, then would "using-without-permission" still be encroaching? Still be "bad"?

Where people can utilise a private service without i) or ii) applying then I would suggest presently there is no assumption that freeloaders are at fault.

Obligatory-tedious housing example:
My employers own a number of estates which have flats and houses on them. There are green areas, paths, and other pieces of land which sit between these properties on said estates. These areas are "private" in the sense they are not-state owned, fences may be erected to keep out trespassers in some cases, the land can be sold on to others - all in the same manner as a private individual's land might operate.

We upkeep these areas for various reasons and needless to say this costs money (rubbish removal, grounds maintenance, repairs and so on). Our tenants who live on the estate are charged collectively for these services along with their other charges which should theoretically reflect the total cost of providing those services. The rationale is clear - they are paying for the maintenance of the environment in which they live.

But in many cases there are houses across the road or (where right-to-buy's have occurred) in the middle of these estates. These are houses not owned by us - plain freeholders who have no relationship with us at all**. But they benefit from the services provided and paid for by others in a fairly unambiguous way. While it's not a huge problem, this means there are cases where wealthier owner occupiers are being subsidised directly by low income rent payers. (The effects of housing benefit of course means the subsidy flow is overall still the other way round, but that simply means that taxpayers generally are subsidising these select homeowners)

On a bigger scale, in the case of large-scale regeneration projects, private home owners might see the value of their home appreciate dramatically because of activities paid for by their neighbours (or housing association, or the state). When such individuals come to sell their home and realise some of this benefit in hard currency, there is no assumption or moral pressure in most cases to pay some of this capital "back" to whomever it (indirectly) stemmed from.

This seems like "freeloading" in the ordinary sense of the word (it's certainly very vaguely comparable to downloading movies from the internet). But it is not usually seen in that way.

* = There are probably studies, but I've no evidence that being surrounded by houses better than your own is a good thing in terms of market-value at sale. Is it better to be on the pull with people better looking than yourself?

** = In reality, the houses which went through the right-to-buy still have in their deeds some sort of clause that they can be charged a fair sum for such works and this does take place in some instances. But for homes which border an estate, we have no legal means that I'm aware of recharging these costs.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 11:04   #7
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

"I'm pro the stealers on this one. If you are doing it systematically to avoid chipping in your bit you are a freeloader and that's immoral.




I cant help but feel this philosopher uses and is quite good at IRC.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 11:26   #8
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
We upkeep these areas for various reasons and needless to say this costs money (rubbish removal, grounds maintenance, repairs and so on). Our tenants who live on the estate are charged collectively for these services along with their other charges which should theoretically reflect the total cost of providing those services. The rationale is clear - they are paying for the maintenance of the environment in which they live.

But in many cases there are houses across the road or (where right-to-buy's have occurred) in the middle of these estates. These are houses not owned by us - plain freeholders who have no relationship with us at all
This isnt freeloading at all; if your employer thinks that they have the right to perform a service for someone and then force them to pay for it (regardless of whether they wanted it or not), then they are hardly in a position to complain when others benefit from this 'service' as an externality. If things were entirely voluntary then presumably the poor and richer houses would have to work out a system where they all paid for maintaining the area, or they could all equally live in an unclean environment.

Talking about 'freeloading' in the context of state-provided services makes little sense in general; most people will pay far more in taxes than they ever receive in services, so saving a few pounds by taking advantage of some service that wasnt meant for you is totally justified in the grander scheme of things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
"I'm pro the stealers on this one. If you are doing it systematically to avoid chipping in your bit you are a freeloader and that's immoral.

I cant help but feel this philosopher uses and is quite good at IRC.
Is this a nodrog joke because I dont get it

Last edited by Nodrog; 24 Aug 2007 at 11:35.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 20:26   #9
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
"I'm pro the stealers on this one.
well that makes a change
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 21:23   #10
Hebdomad
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

When someone puts effort into obtaining a service using solely their own financial means, and they don't explicitly indicate that others can use it, yet others do use it, then it's morally "wrong" for others to use it. IMO.

I'm not really that concerned about property right theories because as far as I'm concerned it's pretty fundamental for humans to want to own something and I think others should respect that natural trait even if they don't agree with it. I'm not saying people shouldn't try to transcend that, but they shouldn't force others to transcend it as that causes resentment and often far worse.

Obviously things aren't as black and white as that as public housing demonstrates, but the principle of respecting someone's ownership still applies to things like wireless connections where, and I'd say importantly, the providers distribute the resource on a per user (or per family more often - but what's important there is that whoever buys the connection explicitly agrees to share it with his family or not) basis.

I don't really care if you can deplete a resource, or if you can restrict its usage, what's important to me is the owner's volition, because if you go against that or simply don't consult them you commit a crime far greater than property violation.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 22:49   #11
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Would you refrain from using someone else's connection if every time you connected to it, you got a pop-up message saying "I know this is an unprotected WLAN, but I respectfully ask you not to connect to it. Thank you in advance.", without further repercussions?
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 23:26   #12
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

property rights and property right theory belong in the 1930s.

i note that the usual proponents have assumed the usual positions.

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Unread 25 Aug 2007, 09:58   #13
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Well first of all in the eyes of the law you can't blame the law for simply defining itself so it can apply itself this way. Taking electricity or siphoning any other utility would be under the crime of theft, so I'm not sure how internet is any different, what with it being a utility of sorts. In that sense it is not a stupid law, it's just extending itself to cover new technology. I don't know about you, but I call this 'updating the law'.

What if the amount of internet used tipped that person over the download limit and resulted in him losing his connection/****ing his bandwidth, however small your use? Are we saying it is morally ok even then? Now you might say it is morally okay if you just take a small amount (infact I don't see any kind of problem really), but if it is legalised, then this would be very much acceptable and there would be people who could be seriously affected.

What is absurd in this case is the level of sentencing; I'm not sure stealing internet warrants any kind of jail term unless the offender is particularly persistent. If we're talking about a fair solution here, I'd rather prefer the offender to monetarily recompense the victim (this might be difficult to quantify, I have no idea how you would do this) and perhaps set some kind of condition upon release that he isn't allowed to use wifi equipment. To be honest being tarred with the spectre of a dishonesty crime should be enough for most responsible people. Jail for something that in my eyes is a pretty trivial case of neighbourhood pilfering isn't really the punishment fitting the crime, but I don't possess the full facts. This comes across as a judge being a bit of a ****.
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Unread 25 Aug 2007, 11:45   #14
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

To either qualify or argue with my former point, I suppose stealing's morality depends on how a service provider obtains, works with and provides the resource.

In the case of wireless access, the service provider provides the DNS servers, high-speed connection to the telephone network, various quality control implements, etc and then provides a channel into all that on a per user basis. As I don't see that anyone has been shafted too badly I'd argue people should respect the various ownership rights.

In the case of some patents, I'd say they have no legitimate basis for ownership (compared to the amount of effort put in by a internet service provider), so I'm fine with invalidating their ownership rights.
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Unread 25 Aug 2007, 14:35   #15
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

what if i stole some pens and rubbers from the office and a situation arose where rubbing out a something prior to faxing was crucial to winning a tender but there were no rubbers left!*

Id go with what dante said. Out of curiosity though if the householder didn't put in a complaint could they still charge the man?





*in spirit of thread etc
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Unread 25 Aug 2007, 18:04   #16
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Well first of all in the eyes of the law you can't blame the law for simply defining itself so it can apply itself this way. Taking electricity or siphoning any other utility would be under the crime of theft,
no it wouldn't be.

that's why it needs and has it's own statutory regime
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Unread 25 Aug 2007, 18:28   #17
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
no it wouldn't be.

that's why it needs and has it's own statutory regime
Suffice to say, the following may make you angry, perhaps at my own stupidity (for which I apologise) but I look at it like this:

Just because its got its own statutory regime, doesn't mean that to all intents and purposes, it might as well be theft, even if it isn't labelled as theft.

in fact let's compare the two relevant bits of legislation:

Exhibit A

The Communications Act 2003 says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offence".

Exhibit B

Abstracting of electricity (Theft Act 1967 for anyone who doesn't know)

13. A person who dishonestly uses without due authority, or dishonestly causes to be wasted or diverted, any electricity shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

In my eyes after looking at Exhibit B, we might as well call Exhibit A 'theft' because although its labelled as something else, doesn't mean that effectively, Exhibit A is just an extension of Exhibit B, it has just been squirreled under another head of legislation. The Communications Act 2003 in effect is acting as an update to the Theft Act 1967 in this scenario. As far as I can see the logic of the two sections is actually reasonably consistent.

Then again I was always rubbish at criminal law so ignore everything i've said
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 00:59   #18
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

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Originally Posted by lokken
Then again I was always rubbish at criminal law so ignore everything i've said
You must have been if you got the impression that abstracting electricity was theft.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 10:25   #19
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

They are different offences, yes. Obviously if something is not defined as 'theft' it cannot be 'theft' in the strict legal sense.

But morally, they are pretty much the same thing, they just needed to be defined in specific ways to make sure people actually get caught and punished for doing what essentially is the same moral wrong of stealing, which in the law, seems to pretty much begin at theft.

I don't see how taking a bike from my back garden or taking internet from it are in the real world actually all that different, it's still taking stuff from my back garden. Just because the law defines and deals with stuff differently for its convenience doesn't mean really, it's the same thing, the format of the crime just necessitated a different way of dealing with it. I don't disapprove of stealing internet being under a different head of legislation, it's probably in the right place, I don't make law - it doesn't mean that the type of wrong committed is any different though.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 19:36   #20
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I'm not really that concerned about property right theories because as far as I'm concerned it's pretty fundamental for humans to want to own something and I think others should respect that natural trait even if they don't agree with it.
But ownership isn't a straight-forward concept. Housing provides the example where someone might refer to a house as theirs, even if :
- they were a tenant and didn't own the property but did have legal right to be there
- they were a leaseholder and therefore owned a lease on a flat belonging to a freeholder who owned the land / externals of the building
- they were a freeholder in a house but had mortgages secured against the property so the deeds were actually in the hands of a third party.

And each one of these is different in terms of how it would be treated in some sort of dispute.

In the case of wireless internet access no-one can really "steal" it in the sense of permanently depriving you of it, but at the same time if someone was throttling your connection to the point where you couldn't use it at all then clearly you are being cheated/defrauded in the wider sense.

Personally what you are talking about sounds much more like a demand for "right to control use or maintain monopoly on use". Which is entirely reasonable but not quite the same thing as ownership imo. You can own land but rights of way mean may be able to walk through your land, for instance. Conversely, if you're a non-owner but have some sort of lease/tenancy then the law will (with some exceptions) enforce your right to decide who is allowed to come in. If your landlord (i.e. the owner) tries to force his way in without due cause (or prior notice/process being followed) then you could probably have him arrested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokken
I don't see how taking a bike from my back garden or taking internet from it are in the real world actually all that different
One deprives you of a physical object (presumably permanently, unless they were going to return the bike - in which case not really theft) and the other is probably an inconvenience for a given period?
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 20:06   #21
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
They are different offences, yes. Obviously if something is not defined as 'theft' it cannot be 'theft' in the strict legal sense.

But morally, they are pretty much the same thing, they just needed to be defined in specific ways to make sure people actually get caught and punished for doing what essentially is the same moral wrong of stealing, which in the law, seems to pretty much begin at theft.

I don't see how taking a bike from my back garden or taking internet from it are in the real world actually all that different, it's still taking stuff from my back garden. Just because the law defines and deals with stuff differently for its convenience doesn't mean really, it's the same thing, the format of the crime just necessitated a different way of dealing with it. I don't disapprove of stealing internet being under a different head of legislation, it's probably in the right place, I don't make law - it doesn't mean that the type of wrong committed is any different though.
you keep ignoring the definition of theft - which i am sure you know
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 22:38   #22
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

if that wireless power thing that we saw a few months ago comes into use i assume you'll be able to use it for free?? After all if its putting 'out' a set amount of 'energy'; you aren't making it 'consume' anymore (from the pov of the meter)
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Unread 27 Aug 2007, 01:39   #23
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
if that wireless power thing that we saw a few months ago comes into use i assume you'll be able to use it for free?? After all if its putting 'out' a set amount of 'energy'; you aren't making it 'consume' anymore (from the pov of the meter)
I hope that when you wrote this that you imagined it made sense.
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Unread 27 Aug 2007, 11:12   #24
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
One deprives you of a physical object (presumably permanently, unless they were going to return the bike - in which case not really theft) and the other is probably an inconvenience for a given period?
To me, that's just a difference in value. If Internet was worth £100 a minute I think people would be very bothered and more protective about it.

You may not have stolen my internet necessarily (I'd be having to use a lot of bandwidth for me to be directly affected), but you've certainly stolen part of my bandwidth allowance for the internet. I can't get this back.
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Unread 27 Aug 2007, 13:18   #25
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I don't see how taking a bike from my back garden or taking internet from it are in the real world actually all that different, it's still taking stuff from my back garden.
You're not allowed to park your vehicles on other people's property (without a permission. you can phone the police to pick it up). With this analogy, I could probably deny my neighbour from extending his WLAN so that it affects my property. Shall I phone the authorities to get rid of the strange WLAN that is in my flat? After all, there's no evidence of god what cancer you can catch from WLAN waves. If you intentionally throw a 100£ in from my open window, and there's no sign of it belonging to someone specifically, is it stealing if I take it? If a WLAN is available and unsecured in my estate, how can it be stealing? How can I be stealing something that is consistently inside an area that is legally mine and my property. After all, if I plug in my computer, and my neighbour has set my electricity output to drain the electricity he is paying for, am I stealing it?
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Unread 27 Aug 2007, 13:22   #26
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Yes, I know you ment the bike that's yours and in your garden, but the WLAN is isn't necessarily yours, even if it's in your house.
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Unread 27 Aug 2007, 16:00   #27
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Exclamation Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yes, I know you ment the bike that's yours and in your garden, but the WLAN is isn't necessarily yours, even if it's in your house.
Why the hell am I paying for it then?
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 17:44   #28
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Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

If the 'training' association I attend use a filter to block out GD* is this an infringement of my human rights?

*which they have**
**bastards
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Unread 30 Aug 2007, 14:49   #29
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Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The BBC strikes out against stupid conceptions of property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But ownership isn't a straight-forward concept. Housing provides the example where someone might refer to a house as theirs, even if :
- they were a tenant and didn't own the property but did have legal right to be there
- they were a leaseholder and therefore owned a lease on a flat belonging to a freeholder who owned the land / externals of the building
- they were a freeholder in a house but had mortgages secured against the property so the deeds were actually in the hands of a third party.

And each one of these is different in terms of how it would be treated in some sort of dispute.
I was trying to veer away from the concept of private property to that of respect. In each of your cases the tenant/leaseholder/freeholder all have various agreed rights that others should respect. Similarly, others should respect that someone else has paid for a service and may not want others to use it.

As you said it's to define the absolute concept of ownership. But there are always delineated rights of each party. It's those that I think others should respect, and it's for that reason I believe others should respect that someone has bought lease of a connection to the internet for themselves or their family alone unless otherwise specified.
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