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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 16:20   #1
ChubbyChecker
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The Console War

Seeing as the PS3 has been released in Europe I figured that now's a good a time as any to see what your thoughts on the different consoles are. Here's mine just to start us off:

The Xbox 360

Good old Microsoft have done well so far. By releasing their console early they could have done a Dreamcast but instead it looks like they've got themselves a healthy lead. They've got a good library of exclusive titles with more to come (Mass Effect alone might convince me to buy a 360) and they've got a user base that would have any developer salivating. I'm no way saying that their lead is insurmountable but I think the last year and news of the future is going to hold them in good stead for a long time to come. The recent announcement of the new Elite system won't make much difference I think.

The Wii

I appreciate what Nintendo have done, release a console that isn't particularly powerful but will sell itself on its low low price point. Seems to be working. So far... Sure, it's selling well but I have serious doubts about its long term future. As the games on the other two consoles become more and more impressive people are going to start wondering why they should bother wasting their time with a Wii. I think Nintendo's chronic problem of not being able to find enough third party support is going to hound them into this generation and once people start getting worked up about games like the next Final Fantasy the poor little console that (almost) could will fall by the wayside. I think Nintendo will still make money from this generation but I don't really see them as a major contender.

The Playstation 3

Oh deary me Sony, you've really blown it this time haven't you? Well, maybe... The PS3's bad press seems incessant these days. People are constantly asking themselves why Sony are forcing them to pay for a Blue Ray player that they don't even want and even developers like Capcom are giving them a kick in the nuts by releasing Devil May Cry 4 simultaneously on the 360. On the other hand this is a console that is built to last. As the months progress people with HDTVs will start to see the power of the PS3 and in the long term people might even be happy that it has a Blue Ray player. I think the next year or so is going to be rough for Sony but if they can brave it out and still sell enough units then the PS3 has real potential to have the long lasting power that the PS2 had (and still has).

In conclusion I think the winner of this war will either be the PS3 or the 360. At the moment on paper it looks like the 360 is the more solid choice but I wouldn't underestimate the PS3's long term staying power. Especially when the price cuts start coming in I think people will be more and more put off by the Wii.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 17:28   #2
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Re: The Console War

Pc games are sooo much better.. you cant put games likes RTS, MMORPG or turn based on that without it being crap!
However you can put racing, sims and fighiting games on a PC and it will still be good. I Dont see the point on expending hundreds of dollars just to get a slightly better image
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 17:55   #3
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Re: The Console War

The Wii will continue to do well for a little while longer as a novelty / party game type device. In the same way the PS1 appealed (for whatever reason) to a new bunch of people who hadn't been interested in gaming, so has the Wii (albeit in a different way). I don't like the Wii at all, but I suspect Nintendo has done enough for the console to be remembered as a reasonable success.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 18:06   #4
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The Wii will continue to do well for a little while longer as a novelty / party game type device. In the same way the PS1 appealed (for whatever reason) to a new bunch of people who hadn't been interested in gaming, so has the Wii (albeit in a different way). I don't like the Wii at all, but I suspect Nintendo has done enough for the console to be remembered as a reasonable success.
The succes of the Wii depends totally on 3rd party developers and the way they use the Wii remote to play their game.
Nintendo has shown the way with Wii sports & Zelda, but besides those 2 games I haven't really seen much good Wii games...
Worst of them has to be Far Cry: Vengeance though, very sad to see a good game like far cry on pc be linked to a piece of crap like that. Splinter Cell also didn't look vry good on the Wii.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 18:21   #5
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Re: The Console War

Well, which Wii games have you tried? Personally, I found Red Steel to be quite brilliant (for a launch game, mind you), and Kororinpa certainly showed how great the control is for that kind of game (way better than Monkeyball, though with stupid camera angels). Further, WarioWare was great, and Excite Truck hopefully gets a sequel which can be great, as the original had lots of potential, though poorly exectuted (another rushed title). As it is, all the titles out for Wii has been rushed (with the exception of Zelda, but that's a GameCube title), and the truly great titles wont be out for a while yet. Personally I'm putting my money on Metroid Prime 3 - the two pervious titles in this series were great, and I rate Metroid Prime as one of my 3 favourite games of all time (along with StarCraft and Metal Gear Solid).

As for FarCry on Wii: Yes it's truly horrid. However, all the FarCry: Vengeance (the console titles of the series) titles are horrible, this one is only the worst of the lot. Oh well, there you go with Ubisoft developing the game instead of CryTech.


Anyway, back to the OP:
360: The 360 haven't really sold that well - it has sold relativley well, yes, as could be expected, but tbh the sale numbers are too low to call it a success - not a failure, but no great success either. That said, the console only became worthwhile after the software upgrade in... september, was it? The Live system is aweosme, and is their biggest selling points - it seems the 360 doesn't have as many big series as the PS3 (though a lot of big games). By opening the money bag and buying games like Devil May Cry, GTA4 (and MGS4 rumored to come to the 360 simultanously) they might catch up with Sony.

PS3: I haven't tried it a lot yet, but to say that Sony has had a lot of blunders lately would be an understatement. However, their brand is still very strong in the average consumer, and I think they'll still dominate the market - Sony at any less than 50% of the market seems absurd. However, they need to straighten out their internet support as well as other software bugs. To be honest, it's a bit unfair: The PS3 is compared to what the 360 is like now, while the 360 has been out for a year. If you compare the PS3 to what the 360 was like at launch they're fairly even. In a year's time I think the PS3 will be a great console - but no need to spend money on it now. First generation builds are usually buggy anyway.

Then the Wii: The Wii isn't in direct competition to PS3/360. They're aiming for a different market, different games, and they are doing it great. I think the Wii will be a lot of fun, though it will be the smallest of the three, and not at all have the same amount of hardcore games or hardcore gamers - as always with Nintendo, really. The "chronic" third party support problem shouldn't apply at all, though. As it is, both EA and Ubisoft are extremely positive to the Wii, and I think we can expect a lot of interesting exclusive titles on the Wii from these two (not to mention other developers).
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 18:28   #6
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Re: The Console War

They all look shit, tbh.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 18:47   #7
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Pc games are sooo much better.. you cant put games likes RTS, MMORPG or turn based on that without it being crap!
However you can put racing, sims and fighiting games on a PC and it will still be good. I Dont see the point on expending hundreds of dollars just to get a slightly better image
Spending hundreds of dollars on what? Are you saying that console gaming is more expensive than PC gaming? Cos if you are then you are wrong!
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 19:05   #8
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Spending hundreds of dollars on what? Are you saying that console gaming is more expensive than PC gaming? Cos if you are then you are wrong!
I'd say that right now you could get a PC, certainly in America, at the same price point as the more expensive of the PS3 packages and have it run successfully any game that's out right now with the exception of Supreme Commander, which brings every processor to its knees. The games are also significantly cheaper.

I don't think you're analysing the way things are, and have been, particularly well which, irrespective of any prior views I had on the topic, leads me to disregard your comments. The poor third party support, for example, on Nintendo consoles could be down to a few things, such as the low install base (something which no longer applies), unique data format (which also no longer applies) and expensive dev kits (which no longer applies). If you look at the sheer number of games which are coming out for the Wii, the first year past the launch has more games in the equivilent time period than the N64 and the Gamecube combined, whilst the console itself has been selling out in every market, whereas the PS3 and the X360 have failed to reach their targets by fairly significant amounts - if you ignore the Sony spin that selling fewer consoles is somehow better, which would probably go down with the Sony spin that the PS2 could render Toy Story in real time and other such garbage.

The one thing I'd say that the Wii lacks right now is a truly sophisticated use of the Wiimote. It's not in as poor a position, game wise, as the DS was in its opening year, it definitely needs an equivilent of Nintendogs. A port like Twilight Princess doesn't really cut it.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 20:03   #9
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'd say that right now you could get a PC, certainly in America, at the same price point as the more expensive of the PS3 packages and have it run successfully any game that's out right now with the exception of Supreme Commander, which brings every processor to its knees. The games are also significantly cheaper.
Buy a $600 PC today and it will play some games. It will have no chance to play games that are released in 3 years time though. On the other hand spend $600 on a PS3 today and it will be able to play any PS3 game that is ever released. That's why console gaming is significantly cheaper than PC gaming.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 20:15   #10
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Re: The Console War

you could just do the sensible thing and download any game thats worthwhile and not pay anything though
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 20:41   #11
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Buy a $600 PC today and it will play some games. It will have no chance to play games that are released in 3 years time though. On the other hand spend $600 on a PS3 today and it will be able to play any PS3 game that is ever released. That's why console gaming is significantly cheaper than PC gaming.
This cost analysis assumes someone is buying a PC to play games though - that's probably only true for a minority of people. Most people these days will want a PC of some kind for study/internet/work and the like. So you're probably going to spend upto $300/$400 for a PC to run modern Windows/Office and the like anyway - why not spend $300 or so more to get a decent graphics card and maybe some more RAM which would leave you with a machine with decent contemporary games and by the far best back catalogue of games available.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 21:00   #12
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Buy a $600 PC today and it will play some games. It will have no chance to play games that are released in 3 years time though.
In 3 years time buy another $600 PC then, when the console user updates, and get to experience those last three years of games. Obviously that works from a different mindset, and closer to someone who buys the consoles at the end of their lifespan, but it's not like they are equivilent in other ways. Show me an RPG with the depth or maturity of Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate 2 on the consoles, or a decent RTS, or turn based strategy game.

Having said that, this argument only really applies to the cutting edge FPS games. I could certainly play Neverwinter Nights 2, for example, on my old XP2500+/Radeon 9700 Pro system from 2002 - although I will admit, that cost a few hundred pounds more than $600. Give it 6 months, though, and you'd be in the right ballpark, and closer to the 3 year estimate anyway.
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 21:05   #13
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This cost analysis assumes someone is buying a PC to play games though - that's probably only true for a minority of people. Most people these days will want a PC of some kind for study/internet/work and the like. So you're probably going to spend upto $300/$400 for a PC to run modern Windows/Office and the like anyway - why not spend $300 or so more to get a decent graphics card and maybe some more RAM which would leave you with a machine with decent contemporary games and by the far best back catalogue of games available.
Yes, this is true. It still doesn't change the fact that some time soon you're going to have to upgrade your CPU, motherboard and RAM just to be able to play the latest games though. The Playstation 2 was released in North America on October the 26th 2000. Now over 6 years later there are still games being released for it. These games are graphically superior to the ones that were at launch but they still run just as smoothly and if you bought a PS2 at launch then you have no problem playing for example Final Fantasy XII today. If you buy a $600 PC today you're going to have to spend significantly more than $300 on upgrades over the next 6 years just to be able to play new games at a reasonable frame rate. So if you don't need a powerful PC anyway then being a console gamer is the cheaper option.

As for your point about PC games being better than console games, I agree with you. I was only talking about the cost issue.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
In 3 years time buy another $600 PC then, when the console user updates, and get to experience those last three years of games. Obviously that works from a different mindset, and closer to someone who buys the consoles at the end of their lifespan, but it's not like they are equivilent in other ways .
Well, if you're buying a PC in order to play old games then yes it will be pretty cheap. But then buying a Playstation 1 in order to play its back catalogue is also pretty cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Show me an RPG with the depth or maturity of Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate 2 on the consoles, or a decent RTS, or turn based strategy game.
Yes, PC games are better than console games (but the hardware's not cheaper!).
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Last edited by ChubbyChecker; 30 Mar 2007 at 21:14.
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 01:00   #14
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Having said that, this argument only really applies to the cutting edge FPS games. I could certainly play Neverwinter Nights 2, for example, on my old XP2500+/Radeon 9700 Pro system from 2002
speaking of which. assuming you're speaking from the point of view of owning NWN2, what do you think of it? I mean, I was expecting good things from it - I haven't yet played a Bioware/Black Isle/Obsidian game I haven't thoroughly enjoyed - but aside from one or two bugs and some odd spellcaster AI choices I'm finding it quite probably my favourite RPG ever* - the plot, in particular, is far better composed than anything from the last few years. So far, at least.


*I haven't played P:T yet, although my copy from ebay arrived today so that will change soon
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 13:46   #15
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Re: The Console War

I found it to be less good than either KOTOR2 or Planescape: Torment, and lacking the scope of BG2. Still pretty good, but it suffers from being in full 3D spinniovision, as you can't represent the same variety of characters, items and locations without upping your art requirement enormously.
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 14:30   #16
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I found it to be less good than either KOTOR2 or Planescape: Torment, and lacking the scope of BG2.
I'll refrain from commenting on the latter two, because I haven't played one, haven't even come close to completing the second, and am a sucker for pretty graphics. Kotor2, though...I know, personal opinion and so forth, but I find NWN2 more immersive, more intuitive to play, better scripted and so forth. Pretty much everything I wanted KOTOR2 to be, actually. (I was really pleased to see henchman influence cross over though, even if it's used less).

Quote:
Still pretty good, but it suffers from being in full 3D spinniovision, as you can't represent the same variety of characters, items and locations without upping your art requirement enormously.
True, but I kinda thought they managed pretty well.
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Unread 31 Mar 2007, 14:39   #17
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Re: The Console War

I thought the actual dialogue was poor in quality compared to it, and with a wordy RPG that's where it lives and dies.

And hack and slash games are pretty rubbish anyway.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 11:07   #18
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Re: The Console War

Consoles are the biggest crap in gaming history. I can't imagine playing games without mouse and keyboard. Imagine FPS with joypad
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 12:02   #19
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Re: The Console War

Works pretty well in Goldeneye, if you set it to the 1.2 controls rather than 1.1.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 14:47   #20
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Re: The Console War

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Works pretty well in Goldeneye, if you set it to the 1.2 controls rather than 1.1.
It also means you run faster as you don't suffer from worn-out-joysticks!
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 14:57   #21
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
It also means you run faster as you don't suffer from worn-out-joysticks!
The ability to just look around is the most useful thing, although moreso in Perfect Dark as the levels are less flat.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 15:59   #22
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
It also means you run faster as you don't suffer from worn-out-joysticks!
You run faster with a knife. Everyone runs faster with a knife!
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 16:45   #23
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Works pretty well in Goldeneye, if you set it to the 1.2 controls rather than 1.1.
It works fine for what it is, but its still a kludge which removes any possibility of there being higher levels of skill. If it were possible to play Goldeneye using mouse/keyboard then the joypad users would have been slaughtered*. You have to remember that Goldeneye was ultimately just a fun party game rather than something intended to be played seriously/competitively like quake.


* Probably. Goldeneye had very simplistic physics and was extremely slowpaced without any real vertical element, presumably because thats the only way you could make it playable with a joypad. As such, being able to use a mouse/keyboard wouldnt be as much of an advantage as it would in a more complex game like quake, but imo it would be a big enough advantage to let an average mouse/keyboard player beat a good joypad player. In any case, the idea of someone playing rail arena with a joypad on a vertical map is crazy, and thats before you start to bring in other fundamentally 'unjoypad' things like bunnyhopping and proper weapon binds.

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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 16:56   #24
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Re: The Console War

Look what I found:

http://nexgenwars.com/

Now we can see at a glance how well each console is doing. Super!

I have no idea how accurate those figures are by the way.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 16:57   #25
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It works fine for what it is, but its still a kludge which removes any possibility of there being higher levels of skill.
If you can't get higher levels of skill, then how come I saw a wide variety of skill when we played it all the time at school

There was also very little difficulty (if you used the correct control system anyway) in moving to more vertically orientated maps in Perfect Dark, with the c-buttons and joystick being pretty analagous to the keyboard and the mouse in terms of usage.

Furthermore, I find "proper weapon binds" to be much easier to use than having to flick through weapons, given the deterministic nature of the former and the relative nature of the latter (ie, when I pressed mouse-4 in UT2K4 I'd always get the flak cannon, whereas cycling forward two weapons in Goldeneye gives a different result based on what weapon I am using and what weapons I am carrying. The selection system in Perfect Dark is more analagous to weapon binds, anyway).
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 17:02   #26
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If you can't get higher levels of skill, then how come I saw a wide variety of skill when we played it all the time at school
.
The only skill is aiming, and level knowledge. The simplistic physics removes the skill associated with being able to exploit the game engine to traverse maps faster (bunnyhopping/rocket jumps/grappling hooks/etc), and the aiming takes place in a limited environment with very little vertical component (yeah theres some, but its hardly comparable to q1dm4 or instinctively railing someone flying over your head on the q3 space maps).
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 17:34   #27
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The only skill is aiming, and level knowledge. The simplistic physics removes the skill associated with being able to exploit the game engine to traverse maps faster (bunnyhopping/rocket jumps/grappling hooks/etc), and the aiming takes place in a limited environment with very little vertical component (yeah theres some, but its hardly comparable to q1dm4 or instinctively railing someone flying over your head on the q3 space maps).
I'd say the aiming was a degree more difficult, however, given that the instantaneous speed someone could move at was much higher, and of course the lack of a crosshair.

Assuming you don't play with autoaim on, of course, but that removes a lot of the skill of the enterprise.

The movement is a lot simpler, as is the vertical element of the maps (which I believe I've commented upon before in this thread), although the latter of these is certainly fixed to a great degree in Perfect Dark, which, aside from the framerate problems, is a superior game.
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Unread 12 Apr 2007, 14:57   #28
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Re: The Console War

Quake is a completely different game to Goldeneye, Nod. How can you try to compare the two? It's like comparing Counterstrike to Quake (also mouse+keyboard).
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Unread 12 Apr 2007, 15:44   #29
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Re: The Console War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Quake is a completely different game to Goldeneye, Nod. How can you try to compare the two? It's like comparing Counterstrike to Quake (also mouse+keyboard).
What? The original point was that joypads were a terrible way to play FPS games. This is correct - the only reason it works with Goldeneye is because the multiplayer is very slow and linear compared to games like Quake . You can play any FPS game using a mouse+keyboard, but a joypad is only usable for certain types of games (and even then you'd be better with a mouse+keyboard). You would never, ever, ever find someone using a joypad to play a FPS competitively if it were possible to use a mouse, and theres a good reason for this.

There are certain types of games which consoles are intrinsically unsuitable for (eg FPS, but also RTS games and RPGs, or anything else where only having a handful of available buttons for binding commands is going to piss you off eventually), just like PCs are generally terrible at fighting and driving games.
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Unread 12 Apr 2007, 16:42   #30
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Re: The Console War

You said it was impossible to have higher levels of skill in Goldeneye. This isn't true at all, as you'd know if you'd played with different people.
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