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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 11:51   #1
All Systems Go
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What Should be Taught in Schools?

Every now and again I read something and find myself thinking 'They should tezch that in school' and if they actually implimented all of these things the school day would be 26 hours long.

What do you think should be taught in schools and what do you think can be sacrificed?
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 11:58   #2
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Every now and again I read something and find myself thinking 'They should tezch that in school' and if they actually implimented all of these things the school day would be 26 hours long.

What do you think should be taught in schools and what do you think can be sacrificed?
Spelling would be a good one.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 11:59   #3
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I think we're all getting into subjective wishy washy art subjects where opinions and bullshit matter. we need more science and maths
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 12:03   #4
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Spelling would be a good one.
Sez u!
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 12:59   #5
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I'd scrap around 90% of the current highschool curriculum because its completely worthless; an education shouldnt consist of memorising 8 hours a day worth of contextless trivia to be forgotten after the relevant exam.

The compulsory part of a school day shouldnt last more than 5 hours max since school shouldnt be used as a political institution that indoctrinates speople into a 9-5 lifestyle. On the other hand, I'd probably knock a few years off primary school since the end of it is pretty useless, so highschool would maybe last from ages 10 to 18. Pretty much all classes would focus on teaching ways of thinking rather than imparting knowledge; the core curriculum would probably focus around critical reading (which would incorporate aspects of politics/sociology/English lit/analytic philosophy/critical-theory), philosophy, maths (proper maths, not the drudgery that currently gets taught in highschool), art (which includes painting/music/poetry, all students being required to learn a musical instrument to a decent level and suchlike), and science (mainly physics, but also a rudimentary knowledge of evolutionary theory).

The voluntary part of school would consists of optional classes and individual projects. With optional classes, youd probably have 'teaser' lectures for each subject a couple of times a year so students could know what it involved and whether it interested them. Important electives here would be computer programming (taught as an extension of thought rather than an office tool), mixed martial arts, economics, and history. Individual projects would be anything that a student's interested in, preferably something they could find a teacher to supervise. The single most important thing to learn in life is a proper understanding of science - not an accumulation of scientific facts, but an understanding of how to actually do/think science properly However, I'm not quite sure what the best way to do teach this is; its difficult to do it in within science class since science needs to be taught in a somewhat ahistorical manner unless you have a lot of time to study historical context and read primary sources. As such, I'd try to design projects which force students to confront the most important parts of science (confirmation bias, prediction vs induction, statistics, etc) directly, but I'm not entirely sure how I'd structure it.


The 4-5 years or so prior to highschool would probably consist of some variation of Montessori education.


edit; obvously there would be a very high degree of segregation in classes, partially based on intellligence but primarilly based on willingness to learn and general world-openness.

edit2: as part of the science education thing, I'd probably have a weekly competition where some shoddy piece of scientific research thats been featured in the mainstream media (most likely evo-psych/social psychology, but anything really) gets given to anyone and the student who can point out the most methodological errors wins a prize. This has the dual effect of teaching scientific reasoning, and also brreeding a sense of scepticism so they can break out of that idiotically uncritical 'its true because science says so' mindset a lot of people have.

Last edited by Nodrog; 13 Aug 2007 at 13:19.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 13:41   #6
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

No language tuition?

Edit: Foreign
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 14:04   #7
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
No language tuition?

Edit: Foreign
total waste of time unless the students actually have a genuine interest in the country/culture in question; how many people remember any of the French/German they learned in school?
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 15:05   #8
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I'll take the subjects which I did at GCSE :

English - as it is except having to do INDEPTH analysis of Shakesphere - ie be aware of what he did, admire how he rocked is all thats needed.

Maths - teach with REAL LIFE examples, ie not "Sally saw a cliff when she was in her boat. The cliff was xxm high and she was xxm from the shore, how high is the cliff?". Replace with "Simon was building a roof and needs to know how much material to buy. If the width is xxm and the height is xxm, how much does he need?". Who the **** wants to know the heights of a cliff, use the internet ffs.

Science - more practicals than theory. Yes people know the reasons WHY you shouldnt mix 2 chemicals together but to truely understand they need to see it happen. People learning from mistakes etc

History - backgrounds to the country THEY are living in and politics of the past 200 years to understand HOW the world works. Who talks about Henry the 8ths 4ths wife sister these days anyway?

Geography - HOW the world works. Global Warming. El Nino. None of these silly projects about coast lines and long shore drift. Not relevant at GCSE level.

Drama - analysing the text THEN thinking about how to interpret it and then deliver it with NO direction from tutors / supervisers - let people think for them selves

Food Tech - was fantastic. Cooking new things ROCK. No changes needed.

RS - not such a bias towards one religion or another. Get local belivers in from the community to explain the religion as opposed to staff members who have bias towards one particular religion.

edit:

Foreign Languages - should NOT be forced on people. If they want to learn French or German or whatever then offer the facilities. If they don't want to, open up to new choices or extensions to taken courses

PE - 3hrs a week of excerise, regardless of taking with GCSE level or not. Sort out the fatty's
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 15:16   #9
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I'm sure I'll regret this when I'm running through sewers trying to escape from police dogs in a desperate attempt to leave the country, but I really like Nodrog's plans, except for the lack of subjects that promote a wider cultural, economic and historical world view.

To boost foreign languages I'd turn it into a part language and a part comparative course on a country's politics, culture, music and the like.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 15:45   #10
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I
To boost foreign languages I'd turn it into a part language and a part comparative course on a country's politics, culture, music and the like.
It depends how you want to do it I suppose; most Western countries have fairly shitty cultures these days so you dont want to pay too much attention to them in the context of an arts class. If you were doing the German language for instance youd presumably want to spend most of youre time in 1750-1900 or so since thats when most of their significant artists (Goethe/Schiller/Holderlin etc) lived. Ditto for most other countries relaly.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:03   #11
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

It'll go better like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
English - as it is except having to do INDEPTH analysis of Shakesphere - ie be aware of what he did, admire how he rocked is all thats needed.
Native language is very important. There's nothing I despise more than Finns who can't write proper Finnish.

Quote:
Maths - teach with REAL LIFE examples, ie not "Sally saw a cliff when she was in her boat. The cliff was xxm high and she was xxm from the shore, how high is the cliff?". Replace with "Simon was building a roof and needs to know how much material to buy. If the width is xxm and the height is xxm, how much does he need?". Who the **** wants to know the heights of a cliff, use the internet ffs.
Maths is sort of double-edged. Some will be needing it a lot, some won't. Also, it'll be piss impossible for some people to understand a bit of, so I guess for "mandatory" education maths is only necessary on low levels. I'll skip the science part. Also, I'll skip the art and drama because they're bullshit too. (People who are really interested in art history or how to paint penguins better will do it irregardless, most people gain little from these).

Quote:
History - backgrounds to the country THEY are living in and politics of the past 200 years to understand HOW the world works. Who talks about Henry the 8ths 4ths wife sister these days anyway?
History, and what goes nearby, societal sciences. People who don't understand a flying **** about how the society works in principle are pretty annoying too. Although, there will always be those who have lived, and will live, with their heads in a bag.

Quote:
Foreign Languages - should NOT be forced on people. If they want to learn French or German or whatever then offer the facilities. If they don't want to, open up to new choices or extensions to taken courses
Of course, not forced. Not being able to speak a single foreign language can be seen as a sign of idiocy too, and it certainly won't get you on an international career. Native English get it too easy. If I had spoken native English, I would have spent my time with something useful, like Chinese or Russian.

Quote:
PE - 3hrs a week of excerise, regardless of taking with GCSE level or not. Sort out the fatty's
The fatty's don't get sorted through school. It's the parents that are feeding little Joe doughnuts and not making him run like hell.




I guess, from my view, mastering native language, written and spoken, is the most important part. If you can't express yourself, you're ****ed by default. Science in general is of little benefit to the Joe average, and those who are interested can carry out with it later on. A level of societal sciences including some philosophy to sort people out with some basic level of "understanding" is very good indeed, and I wouldn't undermine foreign languages either (even if optional). Cooking, sports, and such are things that really should be taught at home - the basics of life, really. I've never been very keen on sports at school, or food tech, but I can cook food myself, and I'm fit irregardless.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:13   #12
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

1. Reasoned Discussions - based around understanding what objectivity is, and being able to concede to someone else's opinion in an argument.

2. Current Affairs/Politics - children should be more aware of things going on in the world, even if it's just at a local/national level.

3. Finance - From just writing-a-cheque to more complicated things like ISAs and High Interest Savings Accounts and Mortgages, this should be taught to people. I still don't know much about savings accounts and wish more had been covered on this when I was younger, instead of some of the crap we did in PSHE.


I have a tutor group next year (year 11s) and while there is a curriculum for PSHE*, I might just ignore it and do my own thing. It's 1 hour per week and while there will be set things they need to know (which I WILL follow) I expect there'll be a lot of dross which I might skim over.


*Physical, Social & Health Education - basically all that crap you used to do at school about smoking, bullying and drinking. Except the year 11s will have covered all of that.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:34   #13
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Maths is sort of double-edged. Some will be needing it a lot, some won't. Also, it'll be piss impossible for some people to understand a bit of, so I guess for "mandatory" education maths is only necessary on low levels. I'll skip the science part. Also, I'll skip the art and drama because they're bullshit too. (People who are really interested in art history or how to paint penguins better will do it irregardless, most people gain little from these).
.
its nothing to do with 'needing it', the whole "maths as practical" philosophy is the reason why school maths classes are so mindnumbingly boring and why most of the population hates maths. It should be taught as an artform with emphasis placed on the more logical/intuitive/beautiful aspects of pure maths rather than forcing students to memorise forumlae and solve word problems until they never want to look at a polynomial again.

A good highschool maths class imo would focus around basic number theory which everyone can understand and appreciate (starting with stuff like proofs that root(2) is irrational and that theres no greatest prime number etc), before moving the students who are interested onto slightly more advanced number theory and introducing deeper/wonderful topics which dont need that much prior background to understand, like Turing machines and the halting problem, Mandelbrot sets, Cantor and infinity, philosophy of the axiom of choice, and so on.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:37   #14
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Native language is very important. There's nothing I despise more than Finns who can't write proper Finnish.
Why is it important if it isn't needed?
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:38   #15
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
its nothing to do with 'needing it', the whole "maths as practical" philosophy is the reason why school maths classes are so mindnumbingly boring and why most of the population hates maths. It should be taught as an artform with emphasis placed on the more logical/intuitive/beautiful aspects of pure maths rather than forcing students to memorise forumlae and solve word problems until they never want to look at a polynomial again.
Without meaning to be argumentative, could you explain what you mean by changing the type of maths taught?

I agree about some of it being mind-numbingly boring, but then not everyone takes the maths in the same way. I loved it at school as my mind deals with mathematical concepts in the right way, but lots of people really struggle with how to solve equations (etc). This is why maths is one of the hardest subjects to teach (in my opinion), as you have to explain how to do it in a few different ways before your entire class will grasp the concept. We all think about it in different ways (even something simple like long multiplication is done differently in each person's head)..
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:45   #16
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

i hate to be the comedy dobber going into a serious thread but i had to say that nodrog actually scares me
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:45   #17
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
It depends how you want to do it I suppose; most Western countries have fairly shitty cultures these days so you dont want to pay too much attention to them in the context of an arts class. If you were doing the German language for instance youd presumably want to spend most of youre time in 1750-1900 or so since thats when most of their significant artists (Goethe/Schiller/Holderlin etc) lived. Ditto for most other countries relaly.
Well you've just named one of the biggest problems with german classes.
They only focus on Goethe and Schiller. These two are great writers but there are not the only ones.
Back then, I've read alot of 'Goethe and Schiller but did my german teacher even mentioned that people like Nestroy, Raimund, Ringelnatz or Morgenstern even existed?

for the topic:

1 foreign language is needed. For most ppl this will be english but even native english speakers should learn a foreign language cause it's always handy to know a few words in another language.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:51   #18
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Bedda0815
even native english speakers should learn a foreign language cause it's always handy to know a few words in another language.
Why? The furthest most people tend to go are Calais or Magaluf and they all speak English there so why bother?

Even if they meet someone who doesn't speak Enlgish, the only words needed are 'beer', 'kebab' and '****'.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 16:59   #19
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why? The furthest most people tend to go are Calais or Magaluf and they all speak English there so why bother?
Let's pretend you're 14 years old.

Can you honestly say that you will never ever go any futher than Calais (or Magaluf whereever this might be)?

If so, fine refuse to learn a second language.
If not......
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 17:08   #20
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Bedda0815
Let's pretend you're 14 years old.
No problem, I've got plenty of practice of doing that on the internet.

Quote:
Can you honestly say that you will never ever go any futher than Calais (or Magaluf whereever this might be)?
It's an island of the coast of Spain. If the question is 'will most people go any further east than Turky? then the answer is probably not. If people just travel within Europe there's got to be about 20 languages so which do you teach? There's certain realities that need to be faced, nt every school is going to be able to have a teacher for every language IN THE WORLD so the choice is probably going to be limited to one or two anyway.

Quote:
If so, fine refuse to learn a second language.
If not......
At 14 I wanted to see the world, one language isn't goig to have a significant impact.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 17:27   #21
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

The problem is, the government is so bogged down in making sure teachers teach that they don't actually let teachers get on with it effectively (UK).

For instance, SAT's are a big thing which really shouldn't be a big thing.

The government spend half the school year pushing league tables and results down the teachers throats, demanding better and the other half of the year complaining that teachers are spending time teaching kids how to pass SAT's.

A lot of the recording and assessing is bollocks and needs to be dropped so teachers can teach what they need to and not worry about pushing children (which isnt a good thing) into passing 'exams' at 7 years old.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 17:35   #22
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Without meaning to be argumentative, could you explain what you mean by changing the type of maths taught?
I expanded on that on my next post. Basically, not that many people 'need' to know any maths beyond fractions and percentages in order to be a Productive Worker, but maths has never been primarilly a practical discipline. The point of teaching it to children isnt so that they can go around differentiating functions at parties - its because its an intrinsically beautiful subject which has the capacity to enrich the mind. The maths taught at highschool, however, is almost entirely uninteresting since its pretty much all either applied maths or methods, which focuses around using well-defined algorithms to grind out results, with almost no pure maths being taught at all (or anything else that requires creative thought or much other than rote memorization). Giving children a taste of what maths is actually like would make it easier for them to decide whether they want to go on and study it at a higher level.

Last edited by Nodrog; 13 Aug 2007 at 17:47.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 17:41   #23
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It's an island of the coast of Spain. If the question is 'will most people go any further east than Turky? then the answer is probably not. If people just travel within Europe there's got to be about 20 languages so which do you teach? There's certain realities that need to be faced, nt every school is going to be able to have a teacher for every language IN THE WORLD so the choice is probably going to be limited to one or two anyway.
Europe, well that's easy.
There are 2 main groups of languages (screw you finnland, and Hungary, you too)
Indo-german languages and Roman languages. If you're able to speak one of each and someone who is talking another language and slows down you might find out if he is trying to tell you the name of his/her boy/girlfriend or if he/she is trying to tell you the way to the next trainstation.

I for example have never learned a single word in dutch, but if a dutch speaker slows down I might understand him after some thinking due to the fact that i know (a lil bit) english and german.
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
IAt 14 I wanted to see the world, one language isn't goig to have a significant impact.
At least it will give you an idea how it feels if you want to express yourself in a foreign language.

So it might help you to understand someone who is talking to you in your native language in case this language is not his native language.
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Unread 13 Aug 2007, 20:42   #24
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
3. Finance - From just writing-a-cheque to more complicated things like ISAs and High Interest Savings Accounts and Mortgages, this should be taught to people. I still don't know much about savings accounts and wish more had been covered on this when I was younger, instead of some of the crap we did in PSHE.


The difficulties of teaching specific finance related products is that in 10 years time they might not be relevent. For instance pensions have changed alot in the past decade.

What might be a good idea is having a course on the importance of sorting out your finances in general (actioning things now etc) but i don't see that course taking much time.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 01:44   #25
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Broadly agree with some of Nod's points.

I'd aim to entirely phase out the compulsory element of education over time, but gradually enough to see the impact this had.

From what I have seen and read (combined with dim memories of the past) children want to learn when they're young. Anyone whose spoken in any detail with a child will know how relentlessly curious they are - to the point where most adults end up resorting with "Because that's how God made it" - or "Because I said so".

Attending school changes that for a lot of people. People are after all forced into an environment where they are all expected to learn the same subject at the same time in the same way. And so people's attitudes to subjects aren't based on free-experimentation of the arts and sciences but of whatever they happen to be force-fed along with thirty other kids.

In adult life - as an employee - you are afforded a reasonable amount of privacy when it comes to personal appraisals, salary, and so on. Now I do not think much of that is necessary among adults because we should all be old enough to handle these things maturely. But what's bewildering is we expect the learning process to be a public affair for children - to the point where almost every single activity you do you are scored for. Christ, even the reading material was graded at my primary school - different colours and shapes showing levels of difficulty (printed on the spine and front of the book). So everyone laughed at the girl who was on "Red Triangle Books" two years after everyone else, and yes she used to cry quite a lot. I've no idea what became of the girl, but I think it's fair to assume she wasn't left with a wonderful attitude towards the education process (and possibly learning generally).

Although the variety in talents between individuals seems vast, what seems to separate people most frequently (in terms of achieving their goals) is not talent but attitude. The current system does considerable damage to many individuals attitude to learning (and self-development generally) which is why it should be radically altered.

People should have the opportunity to learn whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want. But they should be made to learn as little as possible. Yes, there are subjects I find myself wishing everyone had a proficiency in at times. But I tend to find on reflection these skills (that I imagine I might possess) are ones which were primarily self-taught.

I did study computing briefly at school - which probably taught me one twentieth of what I learnt from mine and sb_olly's endless attempt to "hack" the school network in a similar period. I actively avoided studying computing later for fear it would extinguish my interest in the subject. So why do I imagine that everyone else will benefit from subjects which I essentially built up an understanding of outside the classroom?

But yeah, nominate your pet subjects - let's force kids to learn Shakespeare, Plato, Dickens, history, politiics, how to write a budget or wherever else your bias leans. It doesn't matter. My personal selections are "Buffy the Slayer Studies", "The History of That Time I Thought I Lost My Wallet But It Turned Out I Left It On The Table" and "Why the Formatting of Datasets Really Is Quite Important Guys". The cultural side of the syllabus will involve everyone being forced to learn to sing/play guitar like they were in a shit punk band.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 06:35   #26
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But yeah, nominate your pet subjects - let's force kids to learn Shakespeare, Plato, Dickens, history, politiics, how to write a budget or wherever else your bias leans. It doesn't matter. My personal selections are "Buffy the Slayer Studies", "The History of That Time I Thought I Lost My Wallet But It Turned Out I Left It On The Table" and "Why the Formatting of Datasets Really Is Quite Important Guys". The cultural side of the syllabus will involve everyone being forced to learn to sing/play guitar like they were in a shit punk band.
People are often reluctant to start investigating a subject which they have existing prejudices about. I agree that students should be free to study whatever they are interested in, but I think you need to pay closer attention to where these interests come from - in many cases, they are just as likely to be a result of culturally/parentally ingrained biases as they are acts of spontaneous expression. The education system needs to take into account that children are growing up in a profoundly anti-intellectual culture which stresses the acquisition of employable skills being 'entertained' over exploring genuine interests, developing meaningful modes of enjoyment, and engaging in critical thought. You dont want a situation where 90% of highschool students are reluctant to study certain subjects in detail because 'That Wont Help Me Get A Job' or whatever. In general, I think youre going to be constantly fighting against the ingrained stupidity that most people grow up into, and it seems it a bit utopian to beleive that left to their own devices students are going to develop a wide-range of meaningful interests. Some will, most wont.

Thats why I think its necessary to have some degree of compulsion when it comes to being introduced to a subject. Sure, noone can ever be forced to learn something they dont want to learn, but I think that (eg) being forced to attend a few introductory lectures on why something is important/interesting may in some cases open students minds to a discipline they either didnt know about previously or had wrong ideas about, and result in them wanting to look into it in more detail. Your pure-voluntary approach might work for subjects where everyone already has a fair idea what they involve (eg Physics/Maths), but it isnt going to work for important subjects which are either unknown or widely misunderstood.

The same applies to the artistic sides of schooling. Left to their own devices, students are most likely going to be interested in what they grew up with, which will probably be shitty mainstream pop/rock music, and hollywood action films. However, I think whole point of education should be try to point to the existence of something beyond mainstream media-culture, and hopefully stimulate some sort of desire to explore further outside these extremely limited boundaries. If because of their upbringing someone isnt aware that (eg) music can be something more than background noise or that films dont have to be primarilly about 'entertainment', how are they likely to learn this for themselves without some kind of guidance? Yeah, having an environment based around free-play instead of compulsion is important, but it needs to be somewhat directed otherwise youre just going to end up perpetuating the status quo by pandering to pre-existing cultural biases without any attempt to show the existence of other modes of relating to the world. Theres a middle-ground between leaving students entirely to fend for themselves, and shoving shakespeare down their throats until theyve lost whatever desire they might have had to read and enjoy literature.

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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 08:40   #27
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
Europe, well that's easy.
There are 2 main groups of languages (screw you finnland, and Hungary, you too)

So it might help you to understand someone who is talking to you in your native language in case this language is not his native language.
Yeah. Indeed. You're a perfect example of it. Even with you mixing German (evidently your native) with English, I'm able to understand you're trying to say Finland! Brilliant, isn't it? German isn't my native, nor English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
deeper/wonderful topics which dont need that much prior background to understand, like Turing machines and the halting problem, Mandelbrot sets, Cantor and infinity, philosophy of the axiom of choice, and so on.
Ouch. I'm supposed to be able to work through some maths and I've got no clue about any of what you're talking about, except for the concept of infinity.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 08:52   #28
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
People should have the opportunity to learn whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want. But they should be made to learn as little as possible. Yes, there are subjects I find myself wishing everyone had a proficiency in at times. But I tend to find on reflection these skills (that I imagine I might possess) are ones which were primarily self-taught.
So then when these teenagers get to the age of 16 (or whichever age you feel compulsory education should end at), and we have a plethora of subjects studied, with no standardised quantification of qualification, how are they supposed to apply for jobs? Just give them a couple of pages of A4 and tell them to describe their school experience and everything they chose to learn?

YOUNG children love to learn, sure. By the time they're 12-13 though, school becomes a social place for them. The school system is in place because this ridiculous myth that you can adapt a laissez-faire attitude to teaching teenagers simply isn't true. Sure, it would work for some pupils. Those pupils will excel whichever way they are taught though.

Do you honestly, seriously believe that a kid with ADHD would happily be left to study and learn if you just gave them a bit of guidance and left them to their own devices?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 08:58   #29
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Ouch. I'm supposed to be able to work through some maths and I've got no clue about any of what you're talking about, except for the concept of infinity.
You should read the first 4-5 chapters of this, its probably the best introduction to deeper mathematical concepts Ive encountered (ignore the reviews, theyre largely written by cogsci idiots who missed the point and are judging it based on how well it directly contributes to theories of consciousness rather than on its exposition of mathematics).
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 09:31   #30
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I think I'll pass. I have lots of mathematics and econometrics coming up in uni in autumn anyways.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:29   #31
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

whilst i mostly agree with dante's sentiments (and nod on the whole) tomkat is entirely right, it's only in the extremely rare cases that there are students under the age of 16 (and even then, i doubt it really) that are mentally strong enough to learn fairly independently. however, there should definitely be an inclusion of an idea such as 'free study' periods except something with a better name and with someone to supervise or at least set a guide line for kids to explore under with their own interests instead of disregarding the time completely and using it as more time for socialising.

i'm obviously not yet sure how university learning works but from sixth form onwards learning should really be independent unless it's vocational education and specifically set syllabuses are not a good idea at all. something like nodrog's weekly competition but expanded upon and in much more depth is what i'd find fitting.

oh at some point, some education with regards to how 'life works' with all bureaucratic shit everyone has to get through such as taxing and pretty much most other reasonably important things everyone has to know would help in shitty 'careers' lessons instead of re-doing your simplistic CV at the age of 15/16 70 times throughout the course of a year and trying to decide what job you want already because seriously noone that young needs to have decided by then already
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:38   #32
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by jerome
whilst i mostly agree with dante's sentiments (and nod on the whole) tomkat is entirely right, it's only in the extremely rare cases that there are students under the age of 16 (and even then, i doubt it really) that are mentally strong enough to learn fairly independently
Is this meant to be a universal claim about the abilities of under 16s, or is it just a feature of children in early 21st century Western society? If the latter, should it not be a function of the education to try and improve this situation if possible?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:42   #33
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yeah. Indeed. You're a perfect example of it. Even with you mixing German (evidently your native) with English, I'm able to understand you're trying to say Finland! Brilliant, isn't it? German isn't my native, nor English.
I didn't want to offend anyone, i just wanted to point out that the Finnish language and the Hungarian language belong to another group (wikipedia calls this group Finno-Ugric and also states the Estonian language as a member), so native speakers of these languages are on the loosing side for the "2 main language groups" theory, due to the fact that it migth be hard for them to find someone who can speak a language similar to theirs.

Just take it as a compliment that you can understand my utterly bad mixture of 2 languages which are completly different to your native.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:43   #34
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
So then when these teenagers get to the age of 16 (or whichever age you feel compulsory education should end at), and we have a plethora of subjects studied, with no standardised quantification of qualification, how are they supposed to apply for jobs? Just give them a couple of pages of A4 and tell them to describe their school experience and everything they chose to learn?
That's pretty much what I'd write on an application, though: what I chose to learn/work/do that makes me fit for a certain position. You also have a lot of employers do their own tests anyway because the "standardised quantification" provided from schools might not be what they are looking for.
Besides, education doesn't need to cater to the wishes of employers, in my opinion.

edit: Bedda, you are somehow ignoring the half of europe, where people speak slavic languages.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:46   #35
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

no, i'm aware of the educational system and how kids work in places such as india as well (which pretty much sums up most of the east) and there it's the exact opposite with complete focus on studies and the syllabuses are even worse than over here with rigid and forced set ups. the focus there is on a repetitive and endurance based scale of knowledge feeling and testing in exams, nothing else. other than this students are extremely limited in anything but forced learning, even in the majority of their spare time just to pass (or excel) in the exams due to the sheer size of knowledge they have to memorise.

i'm going off track there but the point i'm making is i'm not convinced it's a bad thing for someone to want to socialise, that's another aspect education should function to develop (although indirectly)
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:37   #36
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
So then when these teenagers get to the age of 16 (or whichever age you feel compulsory education should end at), and we have a plethora of subjects studied, with no standardised quantification of qualification, how are they supposed to apply for jobs?
This is a dreadfully weak argument. They'd apply the same way any other "grown up" applies for a job. Putting an application together which outlines their qualities (or experiences) which makes them suitable for a job. So if one of the projects they did was relavent, they'd probably talk about that. Either the job is trivial (in which case I doubt qualifications will be required) or it's non-trivial and there'll be an interview process which is vastly more important than what you have in terms of certificates.

I know as a teacher qualifications must seem very important to you, but they're not the be all and end all of the job application process.
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Just give them a couple of pages of A4 and tell them to describe their school experience and everything they chose to learn?
Yes. And on a personal level, I would certainly pay more attention to the things someone chose to study/work on than the things they're forced to do. If you see someone has a GCSE or O-Level in French, you can't really draw any conclusions at all. But from the projects they've chosen to work on - well that means a quite a bit more.
Quote:
Do you honestly, seriously believe that a kid with ADHD would happily be left to study and learn if you just gave them a bit of guidance and left them to their own devices?
Kids with serious ADHD might have problems learning in any environment. But at any rate - if ADHD is a medical condition, I'm not sure it can be cured by shouting at them every time they fidget or forcing them into formalised learning patterns. I'd certainly think they'd be better off having a much degree of choice in what they study. Even the people I know with (seemingly serious) ADHD can sit and concentrate for hours on certain things - it just needs to be something they feel strongly enough or enjoy enough.

Most people have problems concentrating on things they find boring, or don't see the point of. If someone asked me to copy out the Encyclopaedia Britanica I'd want to jump out the window after line three. Yet I can sit in front of a computer for hours at a time for other things. Speculating hugely, I'd guess that dopamine release during activities I enjoy / find interesting keeps me on track - this is why ritalin / adderall seems to work for some ADD/ADHD cases.

At any rate, I'm not sure you're grasping the implications of what I'm saying. There will be some people who wouldn't learn in the class-room, and would play football or "mess around" all day instead of reading / doing other work. And guess what - that's OK too. Screaming and shouting and stamping our collective feet until everyone behaves the same way like good little drones doesn't actually seem to work (or do our society any good).
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:50   #37
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Is this meant to be a universal claim about the abilities of under 16s, or is it just a feature of children in early 21st century Western society? If the latter, should it not be a function of the education to try and improve this situation if possible?
How?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:58   #38
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes. And on a personal level, I would certainly pay more attention to the things someone chose to study/work on than the things they're forced to do. If you see someone has a GCSE or O-Level in French, you can't really draw any conclusions at all. But from the projects they've chosen to work on - well that means a quite a bit more.
Have you done any recruitment before? I'm not entirely sure how a large company would filter down 1000s of application forms to even 100 or so, from completely qualititative data.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
There will be some people who wouldn't learn in the class-room, and would play football or "mess around" all day instead of reading / doing other work. And guess what - that's OK too. Screaming and shouting and stamping our collective feet until everyone behaves the same way like good little drones doesn't actually seem to work (or do our society any good).
Replace "some people" with "nearly all teenagers" and you'd be right. I'm not sure what you think a generation of people who are entirely hedonistic and live for the fun side of things while never needing to worry about work will achieve for the country.


It's very nice, nod and Dante, to think that all children are eager to learn and if you give them the opportunity and tools that they'll happily sit there and become learned in something they want to find out more about.

The sad truth is that most kids would choose David Beckham Studies or Beauty Therapy as they simply aren't mature enough emotionally, mentally or educationally to be able to sit down and work independently. They need pushing and guiding through their teenage years as this is the BEST way of educating them.

Of course there will always be a few exceptions, but please take off the rose-tinted glasses and assume that the average 14 year old has the same view on life as you do. For the most part, kids want to have fun. The best way of educating them is to use the subject (for example, mine is IT) and put it in a situation where they want to use it to learn. Laissez-Faire doesn't work. Maybe it's the culture, maybe it's the parents, maybe it's the ethos of schools. But it wouldn't change overnight anyway, and with your method of "leave them to it", you'd end up with a bunch of self-centred degenerates.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:09   #39
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

the point they're making is if you brought up a new generation from nursery and such itself with a new set of ideals and philosophies in education, children won't be as they are now as they grow up. though i do agree until a certain point, kids should certainly be guided and pushed (from the age of 7-16 or so especially) in the sense that they will be ABLE to learn independently as well as learning some key core curriculum such as the one nod suggested in his original post. from 16 onwards, a lot of other doors should obviously be opened but that's already detailed in my first post in this thread.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:13   #40
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Incidentally, a school does operate in the way Dante is suggesting. There's only one in the UK currently (to my knowledge). It's called Summerhill School.

(take a look at the OFSTED report - for a private school of ~50 pupils, a 74% A*-C record is pretty crappy)
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:33   #41
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
But it wouldn't change overnight anyway, and with your method of "leave them to it", you'd end up with a bunch of self-centred degenerates.
How's that ANY different to now?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:35   #42
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

TK, will you stop assuming that schooling begins at 14 when it's clearly a predicate of both of the arguments you are opposing that schooling is problematic from far before that point.

Your rejection of Summerhill School because it does relatively poorly in GCSEs to some apparant standard of excellence is disingenious also, as you're not comparing like with like. The sheer amount of learning by rote that GCSEs require, which does not particularly feature in many university courses, is surely not the best way to test a system designed to oppose the mere concept of learning by rote?

There's a lot of tosh on both sides of this argument. Just because you studied and have been employed as a teacher for a certain age group doesn't make you the end authority on what children think and want. My mother, for example, has been a teacher at a Prep School (gasp, the relevent age group) for many, many years and is generally opposed to the status quo that you support, preferring instead something more akin to nod's suggestions.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:45   #43
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Is it a private prep school with <20 pupils per class, by any chance?

I don't oppose Dante's ideas - they'd be great if they worked, but they wouldn't work. Not in the size classes that we have at the moment in non-private schools. You're right - the problem lies in preparatory schools as kids start their learning there. Younger kids are even more immature though, so how would you structure "independent learning" with them? Especially when it's 20 pupils to 1 teacher. That's a lot of independent minds all whirring and asking questions.


(also I assumed Dante/nod were talking about secondary schools as that's what this topic started as)
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:55   #44
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Is it a private prep school with <20 pupils per class, by any chance?
Yes, but she was also employed at the local comprehensive for several years. That's not really relevent though, as "Your arguments are crap because I'm a teacher" isn't the greatest thing to seemingly base an argument on, especially as it misrepresents or ignores the enormous amount of debate in this area that takes place between teachers. The act of teaching obviously gives rise to opinions at both ends of the spectrum, so much so in fact that it's probably best to ignore the effect of it at all and consider it an independent factor for all the predictive power it would give us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
(also I assumed Dante/nod were talking about secondary schools as that's what this topic started as)
"The 4-5 years or so prior to highschool would probably consist of some variation of Montessori education." from nod, and talk about how people change when they start attending school from Dante.

Even if they hadn't mentioned that, when their argument is basically "schooling is structured in a way that disencourages a child to learn, here's what I think should be done differently", why you would think that this would only suddenly start to apply in the middle of their time at school is beyond me.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:03   #45
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Of course there will always be a few exceptions, but please take off the rose-tinted glasses and assume that the average 14 year old has the same view on life as you do. For the most part, kids want to have fun. The best way of educating them is to use the subject (for example, mine is IT) and put it in a situation where they want to use it to learn. Laissez-Faire doesn't work. Maybe it's the culture, maybe it's the parents, maybe it's the ethos of schools. But it wouldn't change overnight anyway, and with your method of "leave them to it", you'd end up with a bunch of self-centred degenerates.
I think we have to look deeper here. I dont doubt that children today would rather do david beckham studies than something worthwhile, I'm suggesting that the reason why they would rather do this is a direct result of our current social structure, which includes the education system. People generally arent born stupid, they are educated to be stupid. Taking the attitudes that children have in the early 21st century as some kind of model for what children are like in general is pretty misleading - you cant just state facts about what people do, you have to look at what makes them that way.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:15   #46
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
"Your arguments are crap because I'm a teacher" isn't the greatest thing to seemingly base an argument on,
I never made that point, but I see what you're getting at. Jer agrees with me though, and he's one of the only people on these forums who is still a secondary school student. I'm sure Kila would also agree with me, too. Surely the three people with real life present day experience of this all agreeing has a bit more logic behind it than theories proposed by guys who haven't been in school for 5+ years?




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Even if they hadn't mentioned that, when their argument is basically "schooling is structured in a way that disencourages a child to learn, here's what I think should be done differently", why you would think that this would only suddenly start to apply in the middle of their time at school is beyond me.
Strawman fallacy. The argument remains, regardless of the age group we're discussing.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:17   #47
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
I think we have to look deeper here. I dont doubt that children today would rather do david beckham studies than something worthwhile, I'm suggesting that the reason why they would rather do this is a direct result of our current social structure, which includes the education system. People generally arent born stupid, they are educated to be stupid. Taking the attitudes that children have in the early 21st century as some kind of model for what children are like in general is pretty misleading - you cant just state facts about what people do, you have to look at what makes them that way.
So, essentially, the "what should be taught in schools" idea is pretty pointless with your ideas as we're limited by the social structure/ethos of UK culture. I agree - but as there's a limit, then replying to the topic with "everything should be changed" isn't a realistic option as these things you've named CAN'T be taught in schools in today's world.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:22   #48
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'm sure Kila would also agree with me, too.
For shame! Using your Alpha-Male staus to pressurise the young and easily influenced into agreeing with you. Next thing you know we'll have you and your 'Coalition of the Willing' invading some oil-rich Middle Eastern country to prevent the spread of Weapons of Mass Education.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:27   #49
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:30   #50
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
So, essentially, the "what should be taught in schools" idea is pretty pointless with your ideas as we're limited by the social structure/ethos of UK culture.
No, because I believe both that the social structure is largely a function of the education system (albeit with a lot of 'vice-versa') hence changing the latter is the best way to change the former, and also that a good school can insulate people from some of the more negative aspects of mass-culture during the crucial years.
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