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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 01:25   #1
Deffeh
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Coconuts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6921534.stm

I lolled a little at first because of the use of what i thought was just an internet slang / london / poor person word in a BBC article.



Still, its interesting. As usual its an issue fraught with contradictions; not least -

"Three-quarters feel their culture is being diluted by living in the UK and nearly half believe white people do not treat them as British."

Well - surely nationalism (Britishness in this case) is defined by culture; and if you dont follow British culture you're less likely to be treated as British?


I cant help but agree with something my dad said to me; he suggested that if he were ever to move to France, he would have to speak french and follow to a public degree at least, french customs and practices - in essence, become french. I think the same thing applies in the UK.

Now obviously some blanket covering of what culture does entail is ridiculous; but sometimes its easier to tell what it doesnt entail. With a growing muslim population in the UK, should we have courts that practice Sharia law? Should we begin redoing road signs to read in Urdu as well as English?

Basically what i'm trying to say is the tone of this article is there shouldnt be pressure on immigrant communities to become 'coconuts' - white on the inside - if we got rid of colours and creeds for a minute and replaced 'white' with 'moderately liberal, western, passive, and tolerant', then i really dont get the problem at all. Thats exactly what you want in your immigrant communities, surely.
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 02:19   #2
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Re: Coconuts

I had to double take who posted this thread. But nvm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Basically what i'm trying to say is the tone of this article is there shouldnt be pressure on immigrant communities to become 'coconuts' - white on the inside - if we got rid of colours and creeds for a minute and replaced 'white' with 'moderately liberal, western, passive, and tolerant', then i really dont get the problem at all. Thats exactly what you want in your immigrant communities, surely.
You're assuming thats what they mean by 'being white', which isn't something that was expressed in the article. You're taking a 'muslim oriented' view of everything, how would that apply to non-muslim indian asians?

For the sake of argument if we replaced that with

'speaking with received pronunciation, pro-union, pro-monarchy'

then i don't see how many people in scotland would classify themselves as British.

As it is i think tags like moderately liberal, tolerant and passive are nearly meaningless as practically every country on earth would declare themselves that*. The inherent problem of trying to group together a diverse bunch of people into something as abstract as the notion of 'statehood' is that you end up using the most banal language to acheive some kind of consensus. I personally couldn't really give a damn if anyone feels british; scottish or asian.

Broadly i think the problem is more to do with social exclusion than anything else; historically most communists amongst the proles would see themselves as 'communists first' rather than (if at all) nationalists, and given they were disenfranchised from society you can't really blame them. It isn't exactly surprising that many muslims don't want to associate themselves as british at this moment in time.

Besides it doesn't really make sense to say 'hey be more tolerant...don't be different'


*in a shocking poll the Bolivians tell the world they're proactive reactionary and completely intolerant?!?
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Last edited by milo; 30 Jul 2007 at 07:28.
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 02:28   #3
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
With a growing muslim population in the UK, should we have courts that practice Sharia law? Should we begin redoing road signs to read in Urdu as well as English?
I'm not sure if these are rhetorical questions or not so if forgive me for answering them if they are, but sharia law of sorts is 'allowed' in britain. Its a system of arbitration more than anything, and it doesn't supersede criminal law. Road signs aren't put up in an effort to advocate any form of nationalism and i'd be slightly worried about my safety on the roads if they were. If signs are needed in polish then so be it. They'll always put up english ones as well.
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 05:16   #4
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
With a growing muslim population in the UK, should we have courts that practice Sharia law? Should we begin redoing road signs to read in Urdu as well as English?
It'd be simplier just to rant how modern society resembles (by sin and evil) the old Jewish society of Moses' times, and revert back to the laws the Bible has regarding them. The muslims would probably be happy then too, as everyone'd get to stone people to death.
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 07:40   #5
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Re: Coconuts

The street signs in Brick Lane are already written in Bengali (/Sylheti) as well as English and in parts of soho there's a few signs in Cantonese. I'm not sure what the problem would be with more bilingual signs, although given the huge range of languages that abound, it'd be unlikely that anything would realistically challenge English as the dominant language. People would use it as the lingua franca even if they didn't use it as their mother tongue.
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 12:59   #6
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Re: Coconuts

You do realise youd have got the same results if you had asked the same questions to white people in Scotland?

edit:

Quote:
A total of 59% of the Asians polled felt they were British, compared to 73% of white people.
This is a textbook example of how not to do statistics. You cant just lump totally different groups together and pull an average value out of your butt, the real information is in the cultural breakdown of this results:

Quote:
Among the Asians interviewed were 296 Muslims, 112 Hindus, 39 Sikhs and 33 Christians.

Among the Sikhs, 77% said they felt completely British or a lot. For Muslims, the figure was 64%, followed by Hindus and Christians on 46%.
Sikhs feel even more British than white people woo.

Last edited by Nodrog; 30 Jul 2007 at 13:09.
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 13:17   #7
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
People would use it as the lingua franca even if they didn't use it as their mother tongue.
Funny you should mention the multiple languages thing. Around here, we have two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. De facto, the "Swedish" the Finnoswedes speak here isn't really so much Swedish - a foreigner listening to the two dialects could probably mistake them as two totally ceparate languages. In any case, the amount of population that speaks Swedish as their native is a small one - around 5%, and declining. The whole country gets translated to Swedish for this, though, meaning everyone studies Swedish at school, all signs (except in some places where the signs are solely in Swedish) are in both languages, public services staff have to (in theory) be able to conduct their work in both languages. There's probably no research done on the net cost of all this, but the gain is obviously very insignificant - the vast majority of the Finnoswedes can communicate in Finnish too, and the ones who can't should really take a look at the mirror and figure why they're requiring anyone to learn Swedish for their sake anyways. The lingua franca -concept works to a certain extent, but there are areas where people will insist on using Swedish. I once tried to buy a McDonalds meal in a small town in the Southwestern coast, and I wasn't able to do it in Finnish, so I just ****ed off. Talk about the shares of other languages, Russian is catching up Swedish fast of lately, with the rich Russians moving into Finland or at least buying summer residences and spending a large chunk of the year here.

The whole case regarding the integration-assimilation is really an upside down question. For some reason, the modern view is that cultural integration should happen: there should be a plethora of cultures inside one culture (subcultures, whatever you call them), to allow things like languages, burkhas in passports (come'on, what's the point of having a picture in a passport if all you can see is the eyes and cloth), and such. Personally I'm a fan of assimilation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
I cant help but agree with something my dad said to me; he suggested that if he were ever to move to France, he would have to speak french and follow to a public degree at least, french customs and practices - in essence, become french. I think the same thing applies in the UK.
If you move into a foreign country, it is, in my opinion, polite to at least try to behave like it's expected and habitual in the local culture. I don't see any reason why the native majority in the area would be expected to integrate a tiny majority in a fashion that breaks the majority - like in Finland, where the majority is expected to learn Swedish so that the minority could live on their grounds, instead of speaking what the majority does, Finnish. (Of course, the issue with Finnoswedes is a little different - they've been here for quite a while, and they're not really Swedish either). If you'd start shoveling it enough (the integration), you'll eventually end up having fifteen official languages and a lot of time will be spent speculating which signs should appear in Hindi or Hebrew and why. It's just not practical nor necessary.

Why on earth would someone want to move to a country where the culture is such that you don't want to adjust to the way of life there?
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 13:18   #8
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This is a textbook example of how not to do statistics. You cant just lump totally different groups together and pull an average value out of your butt, the real information is in the cultural breakdown of this results:
Heh. Very true. The confidence intervals must be quite high. "77% of the sikhis feel British, with a confidence interval of 40%." Giggle.
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 16:53   #9
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Why on earth would someone want to move to a country where the culture is such that you don't want to adjust to the way of life there?
to flee persecution? to live as they want? For employment? For a better standard of living generally?
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 17:11   #10
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
to flee persecution? to live as they want? For employment? For a better standard of living generally?
The obvious answer. Shouldn't one then, out of courtesy for the better environment provided by the new country (the current humanitarian view is that refugees that are f.ex persecuted are always taken in - that's not in any way a high term, it's just how things are done) try to adapt into living in the new country instead of generating his own old country in his new country? This applies especially if you're moving in for employment, better standard of living, and so on - if you'd insist on the new country to adapt into your language, for example, isn't that a little... ackward? (Speaking of street signs in Canton).
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 17:45   #11
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Re: Coconuts

Without reading the op, and assuming this is to do with a malfunctioning coconut, I shall suggest the following:

Fruiterer (Expensive, quality normally good)
Supermarket (Cheaper, hit and miss on quality)
Circus (Cheap, hit and miss depends on your aim HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAZHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAKEKEEKZOMFGLOLABMFAOROLFOFLFLFLFOLOLFOLFOLFOL FOLOMG!)
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Unread 30 Jul 2007, 20:57   #12
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
if we got rid of colours and creeds for a minute and replaced 'white' with 'moderately liberal, western, passive, and tolerant', then i really dont get the problem at all. Thats exactly what you want in your immigrant communities, surely.
Yes but we gave up trying after failing so poorly with the Celts
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 04:57   #13
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Re: Coconuts

There's a woman on the paper requesting an improved status for the Livvi-speaking minority in Finland. Evidently it's some psedo-Finnish-Estonian-Russian dialect a few grannies here and there might speak. This is really what you get, all sorts of idiots wanting their gibberish as an official language.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 07:42   #14
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Re: Coconuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
There's a woman on the paper requesting an improved status for the Livvi-speaking minority in Finland. Evidently it's some psedo-Finnish-Estonian-Russian dialect a few grannies here and there might speak. This is really what you get, all sorts of idiots wanting their gibberish as an official language.
ok, this is exactly what horn did.

Shit peoplsay shit things, it's a fact of life. t's easy enough to always find at least one nutjob to slag off if you are against something and then imply it's some sort of giant conspiracy
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 10:14   #15
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Re: Coconuts

Wait, horn did what?

I don't think street signs in other languages are very productive. In fact if it discourages people from learning english (or whatever language) it's entirely unwelcome. However realistically it's just a street sign and social pressures are going to be adequate enough to let people know that speaking their shit semi-language isn't going to be accepted. You do get some amusing shit though like the irishman who got off his speeding ticket because he demanded it be issued in irish as his rights entitle him to. Because those are the sort of rights we should be concentrating on. The right to have your speeding ticket served in a language spoken by thirty thousand people.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 10:14   #16
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Re: Coconuts

No no, it's just a shit person saying shit stuff. It's a prime example, though, how shit immigrants and shit minorities include shit people who don't want to assimilate but want to integrate their own shitness into otherwise bland and mediocre society.

ps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
You do get some amusing shit though like the irishman who got off his speeding ticket because he demanded it be issued in irish as his rights entitle him to. Because those are the sort of rights we should be concentrating on. The right to have your speeding ticket served in a language spoken by thirty thousand people.
This is the exact case with the Finnish minority called Finnoswedes. Realistically, all of them speak Finnish. Realistically, very few Finns speak good enough (Finno)Swedish to take care of professional business with them. So they can always just argue that they require being served in (Finno)Swedish - because they're a minority you can't, on the other hand, require them to take care of their business in the language of the majority. I find that's very upside down.
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Unread 31 Jul 2007, 10:22   #17
JonnyBGood
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Re: Coconuts

Nobody whose opinion is even vaguely worth listening to thinks that different languages are worth preserving. I mean for ****s sake even the jews got it with the tower of babel story.
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