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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:04   #1
Hebdomad
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Margaret Hodge

I don't follow Labour's internal-politics; I prefer futurama. However there's a lot of noise coming from within Labour and further afield about Margaret Hodge's proposed housing policy. Basically, house those who've grown up in the United Kingdom before immigrants.

The BNP have lauded this proposal as it fits in perfectly with their Britain's full, go home statement (the cited article below claims whether this policy is followed through or not, this is a win-win situation for the BNP). Fellow Labour MPs, however, are less than enthusiastic: 'My own view is that if we have allowed people to be here because they are afraid of persecution or if we need them to work here, then they and their children must be treated equally.' (Harriot Harmen) Also, ninety-eight lawyers and barristers have asked her for her resignation. Both claims are from the observer. The Liberal Democrates blame Labour for selling off council houses.

I realise this is practically a sequel thread, but hey I'm interested. I have no idea about the availability of council houses or who gets them. Dante, didn't you study housing policy? If we do take the postulate that Britain's full, who do we piss off more: uk-born citizens who are struggling to find a home (which hodge previously claimed would be second-generation immigrants) or immigrants?
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:25   #2
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Thanks for pretty much proving my point in the previous thread
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:33   #3
Hebdomad
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Welfare states are difficult to manage with immigration. I always said you were a smart lad.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:51   #4
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Not really related but her comments did make for a bit of interesting tv. When Nick Griffin (leader of the BNP) was being interviewed about the issue on Newsnight he accused the BBC of 'demonising racism'. Quicly back-tracking, he said that the word 'racist' had been employed by trotskyists to do something or other. It was rather strange.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 18:56   #5
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Re: Margaret Hodge

I could bore for England on this subject but essentially :

- There is a massive shortage of affordable, decent homes in most of the country. This particularly applies to council housing, but housing association properties can be thought of in pretty much the same way.

- How you allocate housing is the single hardest part of housing management (if you're dealing with a scenario like the above). You either :
a) Allocate strictly on basis of need (i.e. people assessed with highest need get put first) which means that you will have people waiting for twenty or thirty years and they will still be "queue-jumped" by immigrants/single-mothers/whomever your hate group is.

This applies to the welfare state generally. If you are employed, healthy and single the state will asisst you much less than if you were an unemployed drug addict with nine kids. Is this "fair"?

b) Allocate based on some sort of strict "wait your turn" system, where there's no queue jumping. But then what do you do when a family with six kids arrives in the housing departments office and they've got no-where to go? Let them lie in the street?

c) Some mish-mash of the above. (This is in effect what happens, although needs tends to trump waiting time)

The reason why Miss Hodge's remarks are perhaps unhelpful is because resentment over allocations applies more generally than just immigrants. Who remembers stories about teenage girls getting pregnant so they can "get a council flat"?

From the perspective of the street level bureaucrat - the issue is what practically are you going to do with the limited resources available. Whatever policy we undertake, we need to be sure we can live with the consequences.
- Are we comfortable with families being left street homeless. You do not see (as a rule) homeless children in Britain. This is not an accident, but is a result of various policies we have in place.
- Are we comfortable with vulnerable families of whatever kind being left in piss-poor temporary accomodation for long periods? Are we comfortable with the likely impact this is going to have on their children? Are we building enough prisons to put the likely results?
- Are we comfortable with people being given next to no incentive to be less shit human beings? To see that housing is going to people who have made questionable life choices and their own "good" behaviour is basically ignored.

And so on.

Of course, a much easier option would be to increase the supply of decent housing far more rapidly we than are doing at present. There is not the will to do this though, although I suspect there will be within the next ten years (assuming current trends continue).

Personally, I do not think we should take someone's country of birth into consideration when we are looking into allocating them a home. It is easy to imagine scenarios where this might prove impossible, but I would not say we are there yet.
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Unread 28 May 2007, 00:31   #6
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Re: Margaret Hodge

what about if they're brown you hate brownies

also nodrogs next post in this thread is going to be terrible
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Unread 28 May 2007, 00:57   #7
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Wiping out the redundent class class better known as the bourguise would also help, Dante.

That solution seems to help solve alot of different problems. Maybe it should be tried?
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Unread 28 May 2007, 01:38   #8
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
also nodrogs next post in this thread is going to be terrible
not if it is fairly compared to its predecessor
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Unread 29 May 2007, 11:45   #9
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Dante, I like the way you say "unhelpful" in describing Miss Hodge`s remarks. Your`re not a bleeding heart sociologist are you?
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Unread 29 May 2007, 13:19   #10
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
what about if they're brown you hate brownies
If housing allocation was decided by who I found attractive not many people would have homes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
Dante, I like the way you say "unhelpful" in describing Miss Hodge`s remarks. Your`re not a bleeding heart sociologist are you?
I'm not sure what bleeding heart means, but my sympathies are almost always with the dispossessed, if that's what you mean. I don't know if I am a sociologist (although I play one on the internet), but I work in housing. Does that answer your question?

My views are largely enlightened self-interest, either retrospectively or generally. If we do not sort out housing in this country then life will be worse for everyone, not just the whomever we leave at the bottom. If we are going to take view that condemns vast swathes of the population into miserable conditions then at least can we prepare for the near-inevitable conditions (i.e. build gated communities, have lots and lots of prisons, and have armed guards every 100yds).

The shortage in housing supply has not occurred suddenly, and is the result of deliberate policies to slow/stop building (either by certain bodies or in certain areas, or both). Last year we as a nation built something like 1/5th the homes that Spain did and Spain has less people than us (and Spanish builders are not famed for their efficiency). We can build properties if we need to, and so it annoys me that we are having to worry about "which group to piss off" (as weeks puts it) rather than simply just ensuring there are enough homes built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Wiping out the redundent class class better known as the bourguise would also help, Dante.
Perhaps, but there is still the issue of what we are going to do about scarcity. I'm not sure how many people are killed in your day dreams comrade, but I still doubt there would be enough homes to go around, at least not properly located / sized / etc.
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Unread 29 May 2007, 16:53   #11
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Re: Margaret Hodge

I "sort of" understand what you are saying; do you really have a heart? You have answered my question thankyou.
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Unread 29 May 2007, 22:32   #12
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
I "sort of" understand what you are saying; do you really have a heart?
Most politics rests on some sort of basic morality which is partially linked or expressed via emotional type states. Either you'll have a underlying sense of fair play, or a general concern for others, or the love of freedom (or some combination of all of these).

Now, it so happens that I tend to think that in the long term making life better for everyone is rational self-interest in that it will improve my life in practical terms, but even if it didn't, to quote Woody Allen once again...
"I can't enjoy anything unless everybody is. If one guy is starving someplace, that puts a crimp in my evening."
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Unread 29 May 2007, 22:34   #13
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Re: Margaret Hodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Most politics rests on some sort of basic morality which is partially linked or expressed via emotional type states. Either you'll have a underlying sense of fair play, or a general concern for others, or the love of freedom (or some combination of all of these).

Now, it so happens that I tend to think that in the long term making life better for everyone is rational self-interest in that it will improve my life in practical terms, but even if it didn't, to quote Woody Allen once again...
"I can't enjoy anything unless everybody is. If one guy is starving someplace, that puts a crimp in my evening."
so everyone else is moral and emotional but you are better.

i see
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Unread 29 May 2007, 22:37   #14
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Re: Margaret Hodge

I think it's fairly well established that I'm worse.
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Unread 29 May 2007, 22:41   #15
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Re: Margaret Hodge

I ****ing hate Hazel Blairs.

What a ****ing bitch.
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