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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 00:01   #1
furball
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Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6584661.stm
Quote:
The other day I was waiting for a bus in downtown Jerusalem. I was in the bustling orthodox Jewish neighbourhood of Mea Sharim and the bus stop was extremely crowded. When the Number 40 bus arrived, the most curious thing happened. Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus.

Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back.

When on the bus, I tried to buck the system, moving my way towards the driver but was pushed back towards the other women.

These are what orthodox Jews call "modesty buses".

The separation system operates on 30 public bus routes across Israel. The authorities here say the arrangement is voluntary, but in practice, as I found out, there is not much choice involved.
For the tl;dr crowd: gender segregation is being enforced on buses in Jerusalem. Women are made to go to the back while men sit at the front.



It's comparable to two very different examples, one from history and one from the present-day. What they both have in common is their influence on American society today.

The first is the Black civil rights movement in America in the 1950s and 60s. Rosa Parks was being deified in the American press only 18 months ago for her refusal to move to the back of the bus because she was black. Now the same situation is occuring again, this time on gender lines.

The second is the treatment of women by fundamentalist Islam. I don't need to go into details here do I? Suffice it to say that in the final paragraphs of that BBC News article you might think you're reading about Pakistan, not Israel.


I wonder whether or not the American media will pick up on this
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 00:23   #2
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
[

The second is the treatment of women by fundamentalist Islam. I don't need to go into details here do I? Suffice it to say that in the final paragraphs of that BBC News article you might think you're reading about Pakistan, not Israel.
I agree on most of what you posted, but I would replace Islam with religion.

To put it in context, a TV2 (Populist channel in Norway) did a news report last week on a priest that had molested his stepdaughter since the age of 3 and raped her in puberty. Then, 15 minutes later they did a big debate on women in Islam with from a pretty racist standpoint. It was kinda ironic but also very sad. I do not disagree that fundamentalist Islam have a big problem on womens rights, but so does many fundamentalists and other people as well.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 00:24   #3
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

o israel, you poster child for middle eastern democracy you
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 00:39   #4
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
I agree on most of what you posted, but I would replace Islam with religion.

To put it in context, a TV2 (Populist channel in Norway) did a news report last week on a priest that had molested his stepdaughter since the age of 3 and raped her in puberty. Then, 15 minutes later they did a big debate on women in Islam with from a pretty racist standpoint. It was kinda ironic but also very sad. I do not disagree that fundamentalist Islam have a big problem on womens rights, but so does many fundamentalists and other people as well.
There seems to be a difference between the isolated acts of an individual and the attitudes and actions sanctioned by a group.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 00:44   #5
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

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Originally Posted by dda
There seems to be a difference between the isolated acts of an individual and the attitudes and actions sanctioned by a group.
*You know, the Catholic Church has an official doctrine to deal with these sorts of cases. It doesn't involve handing them over to the police.

I forget what the precise order is called but tthere is an episode of (I think) Panorama which was very interesting.


*Disclaimer: this post may or may not have any relevance to this thread.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 01:31   #6
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Are you sure that the big fat heavy pregnant women weren't all herded to the back of the bus because of a suspension problem towards the front?
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 02:21   #7
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The first is the Black civil rights movement in America in the 1950s and 60s. Rosa Parks was being deified in the American press only 18 months ago for her refusal to move to the back of the bus because she was black. Now the same situation is occuring again, this time on gender lines.
While I have no desire to justify any unequal separation of people in the public services, I don't think you can draw a direct comparison between gender and racial segregation.

Women and men are different in a lot more of a substantial way than black and white people. Having separate toilets for white and black people wouldn't make any sense whereas there's some reasoning behind different toilets for different genders. (Although, having said that, in my favourite night club they have unisex toilets which greatly improves the atmosphere / socialising / etc). In a very different way, women only carriages in Japan are one (albeit unsatisfactory) solution to a problem there. I believe the idea has been raised of having a similar thing on certain late night tubes so women feel more safe using public transport. And even now some people will give up their seat to a woman, even if she is not pregnant, holding shopping, elderly, etc.

The point is, I can think of numerous ways I'd personal think it justified to treat a woman slightly differently from a man, but none for someone who was of a different race.

The problem is as always one of power relations. Black Americans wanted to end segregation on buses not because they just wanted to be close to their white brothers, but because the back of the bus equated (as always) to the shit end of the deal. Seperate but equal always almost ends up being unequal if there's no reasonably equal sharing of power behind the arrangement. Segregation is the symptom of the wider problem of patriarchy within the (frankly totally nuts) orthodox Jewish communities (the ones who throw stones at ambulances if they dare work on Yom Kippur).

Anyway, Jewish women deserve some of the blame for all this. A whole bunch of them buy into a religion founded on a text which explicitly grants them an inferior status. No-one likes an Uncle Tom (or an Aunt Tovah).
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 08:51   #8
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

its pretty retarded/wrong, but:

1) Far worse things happen in hundreds of countries across the world and the continual focus on Israel rather than places doing more unseemly is obviously motivated by anti-semitism/americanism on some level - perhaps not by the people who pick up the story (ie you), but by those who are setting the agenda for debate.

2) Its not government enforced segregation and the people on the bus have no way to enforce their nonsense if others dont want to go along with it. This obviously doesnt make it acceptable, but it does make it slightly more benign than (eg) the history of black segregation in America/South Africa/whatever.

3) I dont think this applies to all buses, I believe most are normal.

4) Youre nuts if you think this is directly comparable to the position of women in Islamic countries.

But yeah, orthodox jews have too much influence in Israel politics, I thought we all knew this already.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 10:12   #9
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
its pretty retarded/wrong, but:

1) Far worse things happen in hundreds of countries across the world and the continual focus on Israel rather than places doing more unseemly is obviously motivated by anti-semitism/americanism on some level - perhaps not by the people who pick up the story (ie you), but by those who are setting the agenda for debate.
This is a fair point, but essentially our government and that of the US isn't taking every opportunity to provide political, economic and military support to the governments of North Korea, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, the Sudan or whoever. And I'd say ties with, for instance, the Saudis, are criticised proportionally more than those with Israel when the extent of each is taken into account.

Quote:
2) Its not government enforced segregation and the people on the bus have no way to enforce their nonsense if others dont want to go along with it. This obviously doesnt make it acceptable, but it does make it slightly more benign than (eg) the history of black segregation in America/South Africa/whatever.
Actually, Egged's Mehadrin buses are state-subsidised...

Quote:
3) I dont think this applies to all buses, I believe most are normal.
...and while a single bus operator operating a perverse scheme on a handful of lines isn't on a level with apartheid, the fact that assaults are being made on women sitting at the front on non-Mehadrin buses while the government essentially finance it is pretty ****ing shite.

Quote:
4) Youre nuts if you think this is directly comparable to the position of women in Islamic countries.
it is comparable. It isn't as bad, but few things are: the point remains that an almost-secular government is more or less supporting an entertainingly awful policy of discrimination at the behest of the religious extremist lobby. Sounds pretty comparable to me!
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 10:51   #10
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
While I have no desire to justify any unequal separation of people in the public services, I don't think you can draw a direct comparison between gender and racial segregation.

Women and men are different in a lot more of a substantial way than black and white people. Having separate toilets for white and black people wouldn't make any sense whereas there's some reasoning behind different toilets for different genders. (Although, having said that, in my favourite night club they have unisex toilets which greatly improves the atmosphere / socialising / etc). In a very different way, women only carriages in Japan are one (albeit unsatisfactory) solution to a problem there. I believe the idea has been raised of having a similar thing on certain late night tubes so women feel more safe using public transport. And even now some people will give up their seat to a woman, even if she is not pregnant, holding shopping, elderly, etc.

The point is, I can think of numerous ways I'd personal think it justified to treat a woman slightly differently from a man, but none for someone who was of a different race.
I don't believe that this is a situation justifying segregation. What makes Jewish women inferior to Jewish men? There's absolutely nothing to justify forcing them to sit at the back of the bus, it's not as if they're going to corrupt the men with their very presence.

Where one party (A) enforces segregation on the other (B) then B is automatically inferior to A. There's no way of escaping that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Segregation is the symptom of the wider problem of patriarchy within the (frankly totally nuts) orthodox Jewish communities (the ones who throw stones at ambulances if they dare work on Yom Kippur).
Exactly. Their position within Judaism isn't too far from Wahhabists in Islam - not exactly encouraged, but not sidelined either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Anyway, Jewish women deserve some of the blame for all this. A whole bunch of them buy into a religion founded on a text which explicitly grants them an inferior status. No-one likes an Uncle Tom (or an Aunt Tovah).
Yes, and while we're at it let's blame all Islamic women for following their religion too.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 10:57   #11
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Dont see the problem.
Woman belong in the back of the bus.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 11:04   #12
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

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Originally Posted by horn
really? have you got a link or something?
Well she died in October 2005, so the American media automatically spent a week wanking over how heroic she was.


You can find the rest out from Wikipedia.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 11:29   #13
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

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Originally Posted by horn
cool, we operate a similar system here on the pa forums. stay in alliance discussions.
Fair enough, you can have the back of the bus to yourself.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 13:27   #14
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

"fluffles"
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 14:53   #15
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Exactly. Their position within Judaism isn't too far from Wahhabists in Islam - not exactly encouraged, but not sidelined either.
At least you know what you're talking about.

Islam didn't enforce women to got to the back of the bus. Wahhabists did. I used to live in Saudi Arabia. Seen it happen.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 16:36   #16
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

When I was at school it was only the cool kids who got to sit at the back of the bus anyway. So I don't know what these women are complaining about. I'd have loved to be able to sit back there.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 02:12   #17
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I wonder whether or not the American media will pick up on this
Considering that half the media is controlled by Jews this is unlikely. More likely that when it does make mainstream media it will be played off that we lack a true understanding of Middle Eastern and Jewish Culture...blah blah blah.

Truth is that Israel is just as sexist as the rest of the middle east and this world is a long way off from equality for race, religion, sex or gender, age, ect.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 02:41   #18
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Truth is that Israel is just as sexist as the rest of the middle east and this world is a long way off from equality for race, religion, sex or gender, age, ect.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

A woman in Israel yesterday

A woman in Iran yesterday....well, we think it's a woman anyway. Just go with us on this one, OK?
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 03:32   #19
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

yes. every woman in Israel is in the middle of a photoshoot, and every woman in Iran is a religious zealot. Thank you for your balanced contribution.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 08:36   #20
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

If you want to take up the issue of gender in society, then why don't we look at pornography?

So the degradation they experience is voluntary, but what is not voluntary is the view that these women may perpetuate in the rest of society in the minds of men. A lot fo pornography shows sexually degrading and submissive acts performed and seemingly accepted by the women that take part in this.

There are some men who will believe this is how things really are with everyone around the round.

So, can we judge society's beliefs of pronography and its effect on the perception of gener in society based one man's reaction to his pornographic viewing experience?

In the same way you can't judge Islam based on a few archaic beliefs on gender issues. It would seem to me that the people putting these women down are not necessarily prejudiced against women but rather extremely conservative. This may however, encourage prejudicial actions against women who don't conform to the traditional gender roles of women in society.

In addition, are we sure this is about women being forced into these situations or is it the men being forced into it?

I'm not saying it's not a dire situation where gender is still a basis for such extreme division, although undoubtedly there is a gender divide in the Western developed countries too, it is just less profound; but, and this may be in danger of moral relativism, in situations such as this are women really suffering?

You don't derive your happiness from where you sit on a bus, nor from the side of the street you walk on, and neither do your clothes provide you any great happiness. Like I said, it is not an enviable situation for these women and it may well indeed have a negative effect on their lives, but maybe we should be looking at it in terms of a "happiness index" to judge how much these things actually affect their lifestyles and themselves.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 10:33   #21
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Considering that half the media is controlled by Jews this is unlikely.
this is a joke, right?
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 10:49   #22
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
If you want to take up the issue of gender in society, then why don't we look at pornography?

So the degradation they experience is voluntary, but what is not voluntary is the view that these women may perpetuate in the rest of society in the minds of men. A lot fo pornography shows sexually degrading and submissive acts performed and seemingly accepted by the women that take part in this.

There are some men who will believe this is how things really are with everyone around the round.
Pornography has the same problems as most forms of entertainment these days. It is a work of fiction but people consider it as fact. It's the same with any magazine really which is selling an imagee. ou know the ones, where the women are al super-thin and have 99 tips on how to make sure your arms are completely hairless.

Quote:
So, can we judge society's beliefs of pronography and its effect on the perception of gener in society based one man's reaction to his pornographic viewing experience?
Why do the films show submissive women? Women were oppressed to a far greater degree before pornography became aa multi-million pound industry.

Quote:
In the same way you can't judge Islam based on a few archaic beliefs on gender issues. It would seem to me that the people putting these women down are not necessarily prejudiced against women but rather extremely conservative. This may however, encourage prejudicial actions against women who don't conform to the traditional gender roles of women in society.
this just sounds like apologetitcs for the opression of women. You may as well have started with 'I'm not for the opression of women, but...'

Quote:
In addition, are we sure this is about women being forced into these situations or is it the men being forced into it?
With the great history of female dominance over men and the fight for equal rights with the burning of the jock strap and the such, I'd this is a valid point.

I'm also sure that these ultra-conservatives would be more than happy to have female Rabbis.

Quote:
I'm not saying it's not a dire situation where gender is still a basis for such extreme division, although undoubtedly there is a gender divide in the Western developed countries too, it is just less profound; but, and this may be in danger of moral relativism, in situations such as this are women really suffering?
It's not how much suffering bigoted policies cause, it's the fact that they exist in the first place. Arguments about suffering tend to be the first step on a road that leads to full-scale oppression and should not be tolerated at all.

Quote:
You don't derive your happiness from where you sit on a bus, nor from the side of the street you walk on, and neither do your clothes provide you any great happiness. Like I said, it is not an enviable situation for these women and it may well indeed have a negative effect on their lives, but maybe we should be looking at it in terms of a "happiness index" to judge how much these things actually affect their lifestyles and themselves.
If it's even a little bit then it' already too much.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 12:57   #23
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

what the hell kaneed made a useful contributing post

it seems that all those private tutoring session nodrog has been giving him have finally paid off!
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 14:04   #24
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
what the hell kaneed made a useful contributing post

it seems that all those private tutoring session nodrog has been giving him have finally paid off!
Dressing up as a plumber and stroking Nod's 'ego' simply isn't tutoring. Or at least the kind that I would pay for.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 14:41   #25
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
yes. every woman in Israel is in the middle of a photoshoot, and every woman in Iran is a religious zealot. Thank you for your balanced contribution.
I'm sorry for using such extreme examples.

In order to redress the balance and pay suitable umbrage to your sensibilities, I Googled 'Iranian Pornography' and 'Israeli Pornography' to see what the big, wide Internet world thinks about the subject.

1) Iranian Pornography.
Link 1: Man executed for...producing pornographic videos

2) Israeli Pornography
Link 3: Jewish Dominance in the Porn Industry

Hmmm...
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 17:53   #26
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

One country has a strong stance against the issue due to religious beliefs and the other just don't really care (i.e., they're not even orthodox as I believe non-orthodox Jews are really not so religious).

What's your point?
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 18:00   #27
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
One country has a strong stance against the issue due to religious beliefs and the other just don't really care (i.e., they're not even orthodox as I believe non-orthodox Jews are really not so religious).

What's your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
yes. every woman in Israel is in the middle of a photoshoot, and every woman in Iran is a religious zealot. Thank you for your balanced contribution.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 18:03   #28
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

But, on topic, how does this relate to Travler's post that says Israel is just as bad as every other country in the Middle East?

What are you trying to achieve?
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 18:38   #29
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
But, on topic, how does this relate to Travler's post that says Israel is just as bad as every other country in the Middle East?

What are you trying to achieve?
If he's tying to convince people that Israel is morally superior because they make porn, then he's won me over.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 19:07   #30
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Dressing up as a plumber and stroking Nod's 'ego' simply isn't tutoring. Or at least the kind that I would pay for.
No clowns, no love - right, Pab?
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 19:08   #31
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
But, on topic, how does this relate to Travler's post that says Israel is just as bad as every other country in the Middle East?

What are you trying to achieve?
Well, I think it relates to the fact that Travler is implicitly wrong about almost everything and that his views are almost certainly biased by his batshit insane born-again Christian nutjob wife into believing that everything is a Jewish-led conspiracy and that Israel wants a new world order where talking to walls will be punishable by death, which is why she's so worried about the whole Jewish thing.

That and he's never been right about anything else, so putting out information such as I have is 99.9% sure to put me on the proper side of 'wrong'
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 19:26   #32
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Dead_Meat, still not holding back, nice.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 19:27   #33
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Petition for thread name to be changed to "Black people rear their ugly heads...again."
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 19:38   #34
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
Well, I think it relates to the fact that Travler is implicitly wrong about almost everything and that his views are almost certainly biased by his batshit insane born-again Christian nutjob wife into believing that everything is a Jewish-led conspiracy and that Israel wants a new world order where talking to walls will be punishable by death, which is why she's so worried about the whole Jewish thing.

That and he's never been right about anything else, so putting out information such as I have is 99.9% sure to put me on the proper side of 'wrong'
I know he's a nutcase.

But it really doesn't answer his comment.

After all, the bbc link is talking about orthodox Jews, not the other ones (who allow pornography).

:shrug:
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 20:40   #35
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I know he's a nutcase.

But it really doesn't answer his comment.

After all, the bbc link is talking about orthodox Jews, not the other ones (who allow pornography).

:shrug:
The part of his post that's relevant is the
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Truth is that Israel is just as sexist as the rest of the middle east
bit, which I have a suspicion just might be incorrect. Now, I may have been slightly OTT in the way that I showed that I had that suspicion, but since we're all grown-up Internetophiles here, I thought I'd get some leeway.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 20:53   #36
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
The part of his post that's relevant is the
bit, which I have a suspicion just might be incorrect. Now, I may have been slightly OTT in the way that I showed that I had that suspicion, but since we're all grown-up Internetophiles here, I thought I'd get some leeway.
Fair enough.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 22:06   #37
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
The part of his post that's relevant is the
bit, which I have a suspicion just might be incorrect. Now, I may have been slightly OTT in the way that I showed that I had that suspicion, but since we're all grown-up Internetophiles here, I thought I'd get some leeway.
You acted over-the-top because we're all grown-up. Cool.

Pornography is a bad example anyway. Western society (including non-orthodox Jewish society) has a predilection to focus on women as sex-objects. How is that different from Islamic society's predilection to focus on women as anything but?

[Edit] To make things clear, the predilection to focus on women as sex-objects is sexist, as far as I'm concerned. Women aren't just a pair of tits etc. And both Islam and Western society use social norms to enforce their respective perspective on what women should and should not do: show their body and definitely not show their body.

Last edited by Hebdomad; 27 Apr 2007 at 22:13.
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Unread 27 Apr 2007, 22:38   #38
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Tend to agree with Weeks. If the West (in this case, meaning Europe and the United States) want to take pride in their enlightened attitudes to women then fair enough, but I wouldn't recommend picking an industry where there is a strong tendency towards degrading women to pretty violent extremes on occassion* as a model of best-practice.

(Yeah, it's formally consensual but given the economic context this behaviour occurs in, and the fact some of the people involved seem to be borderline mentally ill, I'm not sure that's the catch all defence we might hope.)

* At least, in most of the porn I end up downloading.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 00:24   #39
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

theres always difficulties finding porn thats neither too violent or not violent enough
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 00:40   #40
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Beyond a certain point (in terms of violence), it all seems a bit ridiculous anyway, as if it's some kind of cartoon. Also, there's obviously usually a curve of attractiveness of woman vs. the stuff she'll let be done to her, and it's finding the sweet point that's the knack (in real-life as well for that matter).

Also, as we're on the subject of porn, is anyone actually turned on particularly by most gang bang porn?
"Wow, it'd be great to be with all my mates, (incidentally who all have their cocks out), ****ing a relatively unattractive Latino girl in a bunch of degrading and painful ways! Oh good, my cock is touching another guys while we're both in her arse, this is now officially the best day ever!"

I don't really get it.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 02:44   #41
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Thats because you're so hetero it hurts

Obviously quite a few people are turned on by it else it wouldn't exist. The 'black on blonde' specifically black on 'cheating wife/gf' subgenre seems to largely centre on possible guilt/cuckold feelings white american men have towards black american men (presumably because of racial stereotyping); it isn't that difficult to go from that to 'omg 3 men' etc. In britain we seem to prefer our wimmin cheating on us with other wimmin (there isn't as big an interracial taboo).

There doesn't seem to be an absolute limit on the degeneracy of men; which doesn't bode well for the future. Personally i find a certain thrill with pornstars who don't 'look' like they should be in porn getting degraded, and then obviously despising them for going to that level. Once they can take it all up the arse and grunt without caring im not interested

Theres probably a niche for 'psychological porn' similar to meatholes type interviews - where the actual depravity is less important (or non existent) than making the girls cry at the thought of their mothers/fathers/siblings watching them. To paraphrase Woody Allen, sex isn't right unless its dirty, and if they don't feel dirty it isn't porn.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 05:30   #42
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Its just that crazy, pinko, lefty, peacenik, treehugger that I might be, it occurs to me that there might be a tiny possibility that there is perhaps some sexist tendencies are buried deep within cultural traditions throughout the world and that this manifests itself within religion, rather than the other way round.
Religion is part of a 'cultural tradition' so this doesnt really make sense. Christianity in America is fairly responsible for perpetuating negative views towards abortion/homosexuality/evolution/whatever for example. Yeah, its a somewhat dialectic process because you then need to analyse what makes people in country X (or social group A) more likely to beleive in religion Y than those in country Z (or social group B), but insinuating that religion isnt a major factor, or that all religions are essentially equal in their outlook (especially two such diameterically opposed religions as Judiasm and Islam) is just wrong.



edit: I almost exclusively watch amateur/homemode porn; theres something obviously insincere and shallow about professional stuff. Its like the difference between corporate pop music, and music where the artists actually have some degree of integrity (while taking it up the butt).

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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 05:40   #43
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
This is a fair point, but essentially our government and that of the US isn't taking every opportunity to provide political, economic and military support to the governments of North Korea, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, the Sudan or whoever.
The level to which people care about Israel/Palestine still seems to greatly exceed the level to which they cared about apartheid/chechnya/australia-aboriginees, or whatever other similar thing you care to mention.

Quote:
Actually, Egged's Mehadrin buses are state-subsidised...
I dont think this is a problem really - if youre going to have the state subsidising something (which you shoudnt blah blah blah) then I dont think theres any intrinsic problem with it providing services which can only be used by a section of the population, provided that equivalent services are available to everyone else. For example, if we ignore the fact that state-run education shouldnt exist in the first place, I dont think theres anything necessarily wrong with the government running single sex schools. If these religious extremists are being forced to fund these buses via taxation, theres nothing wrong with them demanding that they are provided buses which suit them, regardless of how irrational their beliefs are.
Quote:
it is comparable. It isn't as bad, but few things are: the point remains that an almost-secular government is more or less supporting an entertainingly awful policy of discrimination at the behest of the religious extremist lobby. Sounds pretty comparable to me!
The Israeli government is hardly almost secular, but that isnt the point. The difference in magnitude between women not being allowed to sit at the front of some buses, and what goes on in some of the countries near Israel, makes any comparasion between them absurd. Furball's original post claims "Suffice it to say that in the final paragraphs of that BBC News article you might think you're reading about Pakistan, not Israel." Here's some random women related pakistan stories, for reference:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA330181999
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1414137.ece

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
You acted over-the-top because we're all grown-up. Cool.

Pornography is a bad example anyway. Western society (including non-orthodox Jewish society) has a predilection to focus on women as sex-objects. How is that different from Islamic society's predilection to focus on women as anything but?
Because the effect that being viewed as sex objects has on the day-to-day freedom and lifestyle of women isnt even remotely equtable with the way women are treated in the more extreme Islamic countries. Because pressure that is imposed as a result of social conformity is always capable of being transcended in a way that pressure applied through the direct application of force cannot be. Amongst other reasons.

Quote:

[Edit] To make things clear, the predilection to focus on women as sex-objects is sexist, as far as I'm concerned. Women aren't just a pair of tits etc. And both Islam and Western society use social norms to enforce their respective perspective on what women should and should not do: show their body and definitely not show their body.
Both attitudes may be sexist (although I'd argue that they arent), but this doesnt make them comparable. The anti-gay marriage debate in America is obviously motivated by an underlying homophobia, but claiming that this is equtable with Iranian law carrying death sentences for male sodomy is just silly.

Last edited by Nodrog; 28 Apr 2007 at 06:34.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 06:22   #44
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

I'm slightly confused are we comparing insane people within certain countries, their governments, or a mixture of the two?? I'm not really sure if theres any point in comparing two distant countries in any manner if it doesn't affect me (assuming im not an activist); regardless for completeness its worth pointing out that the sub-continent as a whole doesn't function on 'social levels' that are easily separable into things like misogyny, after all India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka have all elected female Presidents/Prime Ministers in the last 50 years.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 06:24   #45
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Oh and i generally don't like homemade porn; nods response made me consider why and its probably because the woman is enjoying it.

This probably has something to do with me not seeing porn until my late teens and having deep mental issues of it being wrong somehow.
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Unread 28 Apr 2007, 09:51   #46
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
(especially two such diameterically opposed religions as Judiasm and Islam)
Baring in mind they are both Abrahamic religions and religion is more than just want happened in the last 50 years, how are they diametrically opposed again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nodrog
I dont think this is a problem really - if youre going to have the state subsidising something (which you shoudnt blah blah blah) then I dont think theres any intrinsic problem with it providing services which can only be used by a section of the population, provided that equivalent services are available to everyone else. For example, if we ignore the fact that state-run education shouldnt exist in the first place, I dont think theres anything necessarily wrong with the government running single sex schools. If these religious extremists are being forced to fund these buses via taxation, theres nothing wrong with them demanding that they are provided buses which suit them, regardless of how irrational their beliefs are.
Apart from that aids segregation...




Oh, and bored of porn.
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 19:31   #47
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
Well, I think it relates to the fact that Travler is implicitly wrong about almost everything and that his views are almost certainly biased by his batshit insane born-again Christian nutjob wife into believing that everything is a Jewish-led conspiracy and that Israel wants a new world order where talking to walls will be punishable by death, which is why she's so worried about the whole Jewish thing.

That and he's never been right about anything else, so putting out information such as I have is 99.9% sure to put me on the proper side of 'wrong'
I don't think there is a conspiracy involving the Jews. My point was that as a religious state Isreal is not as egalitarian as I would be led to believe.

My wife thinks the problem is because of the large non-jewish population in Isreal that is the root cause of the sexual discrimination from the article.

I do apologize but my tin foil hat is at the cleaners right now.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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The Illuminati - [NoS] - R14-13
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 21:04   #48
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
My wife thinks the problem is because of the large non-jewish population in Isreal that is the root cause of the sexual discrimination from the article.
You mean the same wife that likened herself to Queen Latifah, Eva Longoria and Salma Hayek?

I seriously doubt anyone on this forum values her opinion at all
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Unread 29 Apr 2007, 23:12   #49
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
My wife thinks the problem is because of the large non-jewish population in Isreal that is the root cause of the sexual discrimination from the article.
the oppression of women by Orthadox Jews iis the fault of non-Jews, how exactly?
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Unread 30 Apr 2007, 05:08   #50
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Re: Segregation rears its ugly head.....again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
the oppression of women by Orthadox Jews iis the fault of non-Jews, how exactly?
She said it was done by Jews so that the non-Jews would not be offended. I did not argue with her because that would be suicidal.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

CT R22-20, [1up] R18-16, TGV R15,
The Illuminati - [NoS] - R14-13
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