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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 19:11   #1
All Systems Go
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[Football] I'm so happy...

I could shit. That is all. )))))))))))))))))

Omg, that's suddenly changed and I'm all nervous.
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 19:15   #2
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Come On Pomey!!!!!
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 19:17   #3
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

If dire chelski and their appallingly uninteresting brand of football wins another league title there is no justice in the world
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 19:19   #4
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Tsk, you know Russia has always had the best style of justice.
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 19:57   #5
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

please send all messages of gratitude to Linvoy Primus, Portsmouth FC.

thanks
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 20:04   #6
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Poor David James. So overlooked.



(but nice work Pompy, knew you had it in you!)
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 22:21   #7
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

I'm also very happy. Leeds are out of the drop-zone for the first time since some-time-before-christmas. :)
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 02:48   #8
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

all i want is for chelsea not to win the ****ing premiership... is that so much to ****ing ask
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 13:09   #9
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If dire chelski and their appallingly uninteresting brand of football wins another league title there is no justice in the world
What an absolute crock of shite.

United have played the best football by far this season. Of this there is little doubt.

Chelsea, love them or hate them have overcome injuries to two players who their whole gameplan revolves around (because they stop teams playing in midfield, get the opposition to kick it high then let Terry and Cech clean up). Their squad has been massively stretched and right now are winning on empty, which has to be admired because their determination to win is as great or perhaps even greater than the great United team of 1999 when Roy Keane was captain. They are perhaps the most methodical team there is in the league - they keep it tight, look at the oppositions weaknesses and then beat them.

The fact is this season Chelsea are the team that know best how to fight for those inches and if they win the title, they will deserve it 100%. Never mind the quality of the players or the price they cost, United and Chelsea are pretty evenly matched but in recent weeks, despite struggling, they've won games.

Sometimes in football, skill or playing 'the beautiful game' as some people would like to have it doesn't count for shit. Yesterday was one such example and regardless of the lack of quality, it was a thoroughly entertaining match, not only cos we won, but because we got stuck in, got our defensive tactics spot on and gave 110%. I am not saying that we should all be watching players get stuck in but simply that there are different and sometimes equally as effective and entertaining ways of playing football and either is still worthy of praise.

I don't care who wins but all this ABU or ABC bollocks is just rubbish. If you can't even have a sneaking respect for the way Chelsea are playing, don't bother with the premiership. There is now the possibility that United might crumble - they have an awkward derby match at Eastlands and Chelsea will put everything into beating them at the bridge. This title race is going to be all about having the mental toughness to keep winning, the styles of football are going to be largely irrelevant.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 14:50   #10
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Once the style of football becomes irrelevant the game might as well be dead. You're never going to get young kids out playing football in their droves when what they have to be inspired by is 4-4-2 with a solid defence, a tackling midfield and a big black man up front. This has been a huge mistake made at underage levels in the british isles. People focus on results far more than the quality of football played and kids get encouraged to keep it simple and the possible great creative midfielders find themselves stifled and kept off teams for the tall guy up front you can punt the ball towards.

Obviously if you win without cheating, ie within the stated rules of the competition, you deserve to win. My point was quite clearly exaggerated, I sincerely hope nobody would ever think the way a football campaign goes determines whether or not the world is a fair place. Chelsea are just uninteresting. They're not as good to watch as Utd or even Liverpool on their day (Arsenal, while playing decent football just being too shit for this). I do not have an ABC attitude or anything of the kind. If Bolton looked like winning the premiership I'd probably resort to murdering their players.

Sometimes in football you have to accept your opponents can play better football than you and you have to grind out a result. Portsmouth did this well yesterday and the only thing I'd begrudge them is the way they cynically hacked down ronaldo at every opportunity, this isn't really part of football in my opinion. My point is that watching the same team win the title every year in the same grinding manner when they could easily have built a side that played great football is not what I want to see. Especially when there's a worthy contender out there.

As you well know lokken watching the most efficient group grind out a marginal victory over the space of a few months isn't the most entertaining thing in the world
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 15:04   #11
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

im happy that west ham look like staying up
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 15:28   #12
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Yeah; i never thought i'd see the day i wanted Man utd to win the league either; but its much better than seeing Chelsea win it again.

I dont agree with everything JBG said (otherwise the internet might explode) but i do agree with his general sentiment. I would have to say that given how immense every aspect of Didier Drogba's game has been this year its more than harsh to write him off as a 'big black man playing upfront'.

There are numerous legitimate reasons to dislike chelsea; of which these are just a few.

Not a single player has come through the chelsea youth system in the time they've been Chelski. Sure, man utd arent exactly Crewe Alexander, but they still have to play also-rans like John O'Shea that theyd probably rather they sold to Middlesborough for 500k. If you dont make it at Chelsea, you dont even get to hang around as a squad player, out you go. Look at Scott Sinclair (on loan at Plymouth) and the goal he scored in the FA cup. He's the kind of player that in any normal team would be entertaining fans of Chelsea; and of other clubs (as a long time ago Chelsea used to do), and would be having a breakout premiership season ala Matt Derbyshire. Except; hes been farmed out to the Championship and unless he becomes a world class striker down there, he'll probably never be seen in a chelsea shirt.

Another reason is that Chelsea get too much credit for 'tactics' and subsitutions, when its actually nothing more than the simple fact that they have the best players. Taking off a full back and chucking on a striker and winning a game isnt tactical genius; its all or nothing gambling, and the odds are shortened dramatically when you happen to have the most expensive and best players on the bench.

Man Utd have been playing some terrible football recently, but they're generally good to watch - and what i like about them is that they are a team with such obvious flaws - with Evra and Neville out they have no width from their fullbacks - watching Scholes carry Carrick all season has been comedy gold - in fact, in recent weeks, watching Scholes single handedly drag Man Utd kicking and screaming has been awesome entertainment value.

Man utd still try and abide by a formation - and at least attempt to have a midfield that reads right to left, rather than trying to cram as many highly rated players who happen to be center midfielders in one midfield. It doesnt make for fluid football, or good watching.


Dont get the impression that Man Utd are incapable of angering me; two seasons in a row liverpool have lost to injury time goals to them from free kicks that were never free kicks; and there can hardly have been a bigger disgrace in football than the time Alex Ferguson complained to the 4th official about the amount of injury time; he added one minute on, and Utd scored a winner in it.

Its just that Chelsea have no redeeming features and im not about to give credit to a conglomorate with unlimited resources 'grinding out results'.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 18:13   #13
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Once the style of football becomes irrelevant the game might as well be dead. You're never going to get young kids out playing football in their droves when what they have to be inspired by is 4-4-2 with a solid defence, a tackling midfield and a big black man up front. This has been a huge mistake made at underage levels in the british isles. People focus on results far more than the quality of football played and kids get encouraged to keep it simple and the possible great creative midfielders find themselves stifled and kept off teams for the tall guy up front you can punt the ball towards.
Chelsea play with power and technique and I think in some ways, it can be attractive to watch, but only really against quality opposition. But to be honest, there's not much to be gained by watching United humping a team by 4 goals when some midtable/relegation dross comes like a rabbit in the headlights to Old Trafford. United win some terrible 3-0/4-0's where a good proportion of goals come from terrible terrible bits of defending. That's not to say that United are a bad side, it's just not entertainment at all because there's no competition in it. The same probably applies to sides like Barcelona. You claimed the team playing most entertaining football deserved to win the premiership; I hope they win because they've played better this season (hence the 3 point lead) but I can't help to have a sneaking admiration for the way Chelsea have been able to pull results out their arse and hang on in there. I agree with Deffeh that tactics have little to do with it, but I think their attitude and self belief has been tremendous.

To play for Chelsea you obviously have to have great technique and great levels of fitness and to deny that you need neither is naive when you consider players as capable as Essien and Robben. Not to mention you've got to be able to keep the ball. Technique, strength and fitness are what every footballer should aspire to have, the difference between teams is how these assets are applied. A lot of people find Serie A boring but before calciopoli it was the best league in terms of technique worldwide.

The main problem with our youth system is nothing to do with the way we play football. In 1990 England produced a team that was shit hot, gave 110% and had good technique but the fact that they got stuck in too gave them an edge over a lot of teams. These were players who walked into not just the top clubs in England but in all of Europe. Then Howard Wilkinson (the most defensive coach ever) got hold of it and ****ed it all up. At the top level, of course the focus is on results, top clubs should always want to win. How we treat youths is an entirely different matter. The way kids are coached in Britain is pretty miserable, not to mention the fact we play rugby and cricket too and the fact that issues with class put a lot of people in England off football, which means we have a dearth of intelligent footballers. Only Arsenal have gone against the system and it's obvious they are reaping the rewards, but even then, a lot of their kids are imported, I don't think they've got any interest in developing English football whatsoever.

Quote:
Obviously if you win without cheating, ie within the stated rules of the competition, you deserve to win. My point was quite clearly exaggerated, I sincerely hope nobody would ever think the way a football campaign goes determines whether or not the world is a fair place. Chelsea are just uninteresting. They're not as good to watch as Utd or even Liverpool on their day (Arsenal, while playing decent football just being too shit for this). I do not have an ABC attitude or anything of the kind. If Bolton looked like winning the premiership I'd probably resort to murdering their players.
Bolton to be fair have a frighteningly awkward forward line in Diouf, Anelka and Kevin Davies. Their chosen way of playing is to play percentages, which is probably the only way when the rest of the side is crap. As for Liverpool they have players with excellent technique but play by stifling midfield through the middle and hitting on the break, if anything they play in a similar way to Chelsea except their defence/strikeforce isn't as good but they've got Steven Gerrard as some way to compensate. Chelsea usually score either by forcing a goal and feeding off scraps or by outrageous displays of technique (Chelsea have scored some ****ing awesome goals this season).

Quote:
Sometimes in football you have to accept your opponents can play better football than you and you have to grind out a result. Portsmouth did this well yesterday and the only thing I'd begrudge them is the way they cynically hacked down ronaldo at every opportunity, this isn't really part of football in my opinion. My point is that watching the same team win the title every year in the same grinding manner when they could easily have built a side that played great football is not what I want to see. Especially when there's a worthy contender out there.
I actually think our way of playing Ronaldo was a tactical masterstroke, as by tripping him high up the pitch, we stopped him from running at a very low cost (one yellow card to Lauren on his first foul) because we chose to fight them in the centre circle. I suggested we did it before the game as the thought of Ronaldo running at Stefanovic was too terrible to contemplate. The point of using our match was to show that our attitude, mental toughness and work rate can be entertaining too. To limit your thinking to what I term the 'beautiful game' is to simply ignore the fact that football is interesting because of the contrasting styles and tactics we see on the pitch.

I think Chelsea play the way they do because they have inherited a fantastically able defender who's only weakness is his pace, so they can't afford to play expansively. If they play to suit his strengths, they won't concede goals and as they play to Lampard's strengths too (although more to Drogba's these days), they score more too. They have a formula that works and they should stick to it. If they want to change, they need to fire Mourinho and probably spend another £200 million. You might find it disappointing that they have buckets of talent and don't play expansively but each manager picks his own way of playing and if he's effective with it, he's not going to give it up because his job is to ultimately get results in modern football. United's squad could play like Chelsea and lose a lot more games, because their squad is set up to play in a different style.

Quote:
As you well know lokken watching the most efficient group grind out a marginal victory over the space of a few months isn't the most entertaining thing in the world
And just like in Planetarion, as much as I think some alliances have been politically shit, that doesn't mean they didn't deserve to win, simply because of the quality of their play and their determination to win compared to the rest of the field. Obviously there are alliances that have won by being massively cynical and won while nothing happened, but fortunately for football, it's well recognised even in Italy that the years of catenaccio were a failure, despite them maintaining their defensive prowess. If you want to win you have to play to score goals in some shape or form, not simply rely on defence and the opposition gifting you a goal (which is what happens in PA). Chelsea are triumphing in adversity and people go on saying "well they have world class players", so what, so does every top side in Europe, what exactly is the difference?

I'll be watching Chelsea v United as an impartial observer because they have contrasting styles which when brought together will create a riveting encounter so long as they don't bitch at each other for 90 minutes like when Chelsea met Arsenal.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 21:19   #14
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

[quote=lokken
I actually think our way of playing Ronaldo was a tactical masterstroke, [/QUOTE]

but surely the point therefore is that if everyone knew it was being done deliberately (rather than just to get the ball, as if that had been the point then he would probably have got past them more) then more fouls should be given, what with it being against the rules of the game to deliberately stop a player.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 21:35   #15
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Chelsea play with power and technique and I think in some ways, it can be attractive to watch, but only really against quality opposition. But to be honest, there's not much to be gained by watching United humping a team by 4 goals when some midtable/relegation dross comes like a rabbit in the headlights to Old Trafford. United win some terrible 3-0/4-0's where a good proportion of goals come from terrible terrible bits of defending. That's not to say that United are a bad side, it's just not entertainment at all because there's no competition in it. The same probably applies to sides like Barcelona. You claimed the team playing most entertaining football deserved to win the premiership;
Actually I didn't. I said if they can play both entertaining and generally winning football I'd like to see them as champions at the end of the year. And personally I think you're dramatically under-rating what Utd can do to teams. Blackburn came, played well, got their goal and got overwhelmed. I don't necessarily find a 0-0 entertaining but it's damn close so ergo has a large amount of competition in it. You have to get the mix right really and I feel Utd have attempted to do this year and have come close enough that if they failed to win the premiership I'd be horribly disappointed.

Quote:
To play for Chelsea you obviously have to have great technique and great levels of fitness and to deny that you need neither is naive when you consider players as capable as Essien and Robben. Not to mention you've got to be able to keep the ball. Technique, strength and fitness are what every footballer should aspire to have, the difference between teams is how these assets are applied. A lot of people find Serie A boring but before calciopoli it was the best league in terms of technique worldwide.
A lot of it is the fact that Chelsea don't play attacking football as a team. More than any other side they rely on flashes of brilliance from their top players to win them games. I don't think this really portrays a good image for football. Defend solidly and hope someone born with lots of talent can hit a 30 yard screamer? It's stifling football and I don't think you'll find many people who enjoy it.

Quote:
The main problem with our youth system is nothing to do with the way we play football. In 1990 England produced a team that was shit hot, gave 110% and had good technique but the fact that they got stuck in too gave them an edge over a lot of teams. These were players who walked into not just the top clubs in England but in all of Europe. Then Howard Wilkinson (the most defensive coach ever) got hold of it and ****ed it all up. At the top level, of course the focus is on results, top clubs should always want to win. How we treat youths is an entirely different matter. The way kids are coached in Britain is pretty miserable, not to mention the fact we play rugby and cricket too and the fact that issues with class put a lot of people in England off football, which means we have a dearth of intelligent footballers. Only Arsenal have gone against the system and it's obvious they are reaping the rewards, but even then, a lot of their kids are imported, I don't think they've got any interest in developing English football whatsoever.
One good international football team does not make a nation of good players. If there's one side you really can say should be focussed on more than just results it's Chelsea. They had the ability to attract almost any player in the world. Hopefully with Mourinho likely to move on this summer the next manager won't be some jumped up prat who thinks winning is everything.

Quote:
Bolton to be fair have a frighteningly awkward forward line in Diouf, Anelka and Kevin Davies. Their chosen way of playing is to play percentages, which is probably the only way when the rest of the side is crap. As for Liverpool they have players with excellent technique but play by stifling midfield through the middle and hitting on the break, if anything they play in a similar way to Chelsea except their defence/strikeforce isn't as good but they've got Steven Gerrard as some way to compensate. Chelsea usually score either by forcing a goal and feeding off scraps or by outrageous displays of technique (Chelsea have scored some ****ing awesome goals this season).
And to be honest while you can't blame Bolton and Liverpool are actually starting to improve in that regard Chelsea show no interest in moving forwards like that. Personally I'd like to see them lose if only for the fact someone might think "hang on, maybe direly defensive football won't always win it for us".

Quote:
I actually think our way of playing Ronaldo was a tactical masterstroke, as by tripping him high up the pitch, we stopped him from running at a very low cost (one yellow card to Lauren on his first foul) because we chose to fight them in the centre circle. I suggested we did it before the game as the thought of Ronaldo running at Stefanovic was too terrible to contemplate. The point of using our match was to show that our attitude, mental toughness and work rate can be entertaining too. To limit your thinking to what I term the 'beautiful game' is to simply ignore the fact that football is interesting because of the contrasting styles and tactics we see on the pitch.
No offence but I have no interest in listening to someone justify systematically fouling a player as a valid way of playing football and I'm just not going to argue it. Attitude, mental toughness, work-rate fine. Fouling someone as a tactic, no.

Quote:
I think Chelsea play the way they do because they have inherited a fantastically able defender who's only weakness is his pace, so they can't afford to play expansively. If they play to suit his strengths, they won't concede goals and as they play to Lampard's strengths too (although more to Drogba's these days), they score more too. They have a formula that works and they should stick to it. If they want to change, they need to fire Mourinho and probably spend another £200 million. You might find it disappointing that they have buckets of talent and don't play expansively but each manager picks his own way of playing and if he's effective with it, he's not going to give it up because his job is to ultimately get results in modern football. United's squad could play like Chelsea and lose a lot more games, because their squad is set up to play in a different style.
Chelsea bought most of their squad in the space of a few years. When Mourinho arrived Terry wasn't the defender he is nowadays. Largely the manager has moulded the team. To say that Terry and Lampard can't play in an attacking team is just silly. Chelsea play the way they do because Mourinho thinks that if he wins a few trophies with the best squad in the world he'll be recognised as a great manager and because really he's not that good a manager.

Quote:
And just like in Planetarion, as much as I think some alliances have been politically shit, that doesn't mean they didn't deserve to win, simply because of the quality of their play and their determination to win compared to the rest of the field. Obviously there are alliances that have won by being massively cynical and won while nothing happened, but fortunately for football, it's well recognised even in Italy that the years of catenaccio were a failure, despite them maintaining their defensive prowess. If you want to win you have to play to score goals in some shape or form, not simply rely on defence and the opposition gifting you a goal (which is what happens in PA). Chelsea are triumphing in adversity and people go on saying "well they have world class players", so what, so does every top side in Europe, what exactly is the difference?
Chelsea play a boring style, they brought in top attacking players and proceeded to waste them and they could have done so much more. Chelsea could have been a shining example to football, they could have combined all that's best about the British and continental games. Instead they combined the worst. Arrogance, defensive football, cynical football. Beyond winning football this is what people think of when they think of Chelsea.

Quote:
I'll be watching Chelsea v United as an impartial observer because they have contrasting styles which when brought together will create a riveting encounter so long as they don't bitch at each other for 90 minutes like when Chelsea met Arsenal.
I'll be watching the game hoping a plane hits the Chelsea dugout so I don't have to see Mourinho slide along on his knees down the touchline like he actually gives a shit who he's managing.


This is a really unnecessarily long discussion. I'd like to re-emphasise that I won't declare that Chelsea don't deserve to win the premiership if they do. However I, and most of the rest of the footballing world, would rather see the side we'd prefer to watch play win the Premiership than a side that we'd only just prefer to watch ahead of paint drying.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 22:13   #16
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Actually I didn't. I said if they can play both entertaining and generally winning football I'd like to see them as champions at the end of the year. And personally I think you're dramatically under-rating what Utd can do to teams. Blackburn came, played well, got their goal and got overwhelmed. I don't necessarily find a 0-0 entertaining but it's damn close so ergo has a large amount of competition in it. You have to get the mix right really and I feel Utd have attempted to do this year and have come close enough that if they failed to win the premiership I'd be horribly disappointed.
I have no doubt what so ever that United are the people's choice, some for the reason that they play attacking football and people like that on principle (I can take that) some for ABC reasons. But if Chelsea win the prem it will be 100% justified.

Quote:
A lot of it is the fact that Chelsea don't play attacking football as a team. More than any other side they rely on flashes of brilliance from their top players to win them games. I don't think this really portrays a good image for football. Defend solidly and hope someone born with lots of talent can hit a 30 yard screamer? It's stifling football and I don't think you'll find many people who enjoy it.
I think their whole strategy is based on slowly but surely pushing the opposition back, getting them to hoof it back using Terry and Makelele to collect then get it back to them quickly and constantly keeping the opposition under pressure. Eventually they get that clean shot off that gets them a goal. I've nearly cried while Robben ran rings round us at Stamford Bridge because they were skinning us alive and while it was great to watch, my team were . Chelsea are willing to sacrifice 6 players to defend to give 4 attackers (usually Lampard, Drogba, forward winger left and forward winger right) total freedom. It's only when they've got a lead will they usually get everyone back to defend as a team if necessary.

Quote:
One good international football team does not make a nation of good players. If there's one side you really can say should be focussed on more than just results it's Chelsea. They had the ability to attract almost any player in the world. Hopefully with Mourinho likely to move on this summer the next manager won't be some jumped up prat who thinks winning is everything.
Nah, England up to the late 80's to early 90's produced a fantastic crop of players, 1990 was their peak. The point I was making is that our youth system is ****ed up for different reasons than top sides playing what you term to be bad football. The other reason that I neglected to mention was the influx of foreigners since the premiership took hold. The only reason our national team went up to spout, was instead of employing a real winner (Brian Clough) they brought in Graham Taylor who was a good manager but like Steve McLaren out of his depth.

Quote:
And to be honest while you can't blame Bolton and Liverpool are actually starting to improve in that regard Chelsea show no interest in moving forwards like that. Personally I'd like to see them lose if only for the fact someone might think "hang on, maybe direly defensive football won't always win it for us".
It sounds quite arrogant but Chelsea don't need to be progressive because they have a good formula. It's like asking Barcelona changing the way they are playing now, it would just be daft.

Quote:
No offence but I have no interest in listening to someone justify systematically fouling a player as a valid way of playing football and I'm just not going to argue it. Attitude, mental toughness, work-rate fine. Fouling someone as a tactic, no.
It's how Arsenal have been losing matches because everyone knows they cave in to strongarm tactics. The tactic of stopping Ronaldo make any runs at any cost was effective because in the second half he was non-existent and we'd obviously got to him - I wouldn't be shocked if other teams followed in our footsteps, and got away with it. I think we were genuinely trying to play the ball, it was simply the case that if you didn't get it, you made sure you brought him down to stop him running away with it.

Considering he's someone who plays the system himself by repeatedly diving and using his pace to deceive referees, I think it works both ways. He knows he might get booked but if he gets a penalty, it's worth it, not to mention that other defenders back off him fearing he might dive. He got a taste of his own medicine because if he even decided to get the ball he'd have a player coming into him double quick. There are players who take a booking for the team and they are widely appreciated by their own fans. Ronaldo just does it by diving or appealing when he trips over.

Quote:
Chelsea bought most of their squad in the space of a few years. When Mourinho arrived Terry wasn't the defender he is nowadays. Largely the manager has moulded the team. To say that Terry and Lampard can't play in an attacking team is just silly. Chelsea play the way they do because Mourinho thinks that if he wins a few trophies with the best squad in the world he'll be recognised as a great manager and because really he's not that good a manager.
I think Mourinho became a great manager when he won the champions league with Porto, cos he got a team who were nowhere near that level to go all the way. All Porto has done is open the door for him to manage big clubs and handle the best players. England fans would take him like a shot over any other manager. The problem with Terry and Lampard is that under Ranieri's expansive 4-4-2, Terry was over exposed to pace and Lampard's passing let him down to play 4-4-2. Mourinho has built a system to protect their weaknesses and play to their strengths because they have skills they are very good at and he wants to make the most of them.

Quote:
Chelsea play a boring style, they brought in top attacking players and proceeded to waste them and they could have done so much more. Chelsea could have been a shining example to football, they could have combined all that's best about the British and continental games. Instead they combined the worst. Arrogance, defensive football, cynical football. Beyond winning football this is what people think of when they think of Chelsea.
When I watch Chelsea, I think they play almost like a top Italian side. Very slow, very patient, methodical but when they find a chance they can kill your team. I am surprised when people say they don't like that style of football because while it isn't all action, the moves that do come to fruition are ones that have been well thought through and very well executed.

Quote:
I'll be watching the game hoping a plane hits the Chelsea dugout so I don't have to see Mourinho slide along on his knees down the touchline like he actually gives a shit who he's managing.
So basically you don't like Mourinho then. I don't think he cares for anyone other than himself, to be honest and he just wants to achieve for himself. If he wins the Champions League with Chelsea, I'm sure he'll quit and find himself a new challenge.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 22:18   #17
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
but surely the point therefore is that if everyone knew it was being done deliberately (rather than just to get the ball, as if that had been the point then he would probably have got past them more) then more fouls should be given, what with it being against the rules of the game to deliberately stop a player.
I think this is a bit hazy, I think we were attempting to get the ball, but if needs be, hauling down Ronaldo was a fantastic idea if you didn't manage to quite get it. To be fair the referee was right to give every foul in Ronaldo's favour, but because they were only niggly little fouls the amount of punishment he could give out was limited. As I said in reply to JBG, after a while he went a bit quiet and second half he was hardly in the game, so I'd say it was pretty much mission accomplished.
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Unread 8 Apr 2007, 23:27   #18
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I have no doubt what so ever that United are the people's choice, some for the reason that they play attacking football and people like that on principle (I can take that) some for ABC reasons. But if Chelsea win the prem it will be 100% justified.
As I've said already my initial line was mostly, and rather obviously, hyperbole.

Quote:
Nah, England up to the late 80's to early 90's produced a fantastic crop of players, 1990 was their peak. The point I was making is that our youth system is ****ed up for different reasons than top sides playing what you term to be bad football. The other reason that I neglected to mention was the influx of foreigners since the premiership took hold. The only reason our national team went up to spout, was instead of employing a real winner (Brian Clough) they brought in Graham Taylor who was a good manager but like Steve McLaren out of his depth.
To be honest by about 1990 there were very few really good English players coming through. Largely as well they all come in the same roles. TheIt's a filter-down effect, top sides play the sort of football which doesn't encourage the development of the sort of players you need to compete at the highest level and this just trickles down to the lower leagues and to underage football. The standard of football dramatically improved in the premiership when players like Bergkamp and Zola started coming in. You haven't seen Spain or Italy have a drop-off in the quality of footballs they produce with the number of foreigners they have in their leagues do you?

Quote:
It sounds quite arrogant but Chelsea don't need to be progressive because they have a good formula. It's like asking Barcelona changing the way they are playing now, it would just be daft.
And that's why I hope they won't win the league. Football, when it's very close can come down to small, marginal events which can just be the swing of luck. Personally if it comes down to that and Chelsea win by a point or something I'll find it very discouraging for the future of football.

Quote:
It's how Arsenal have been losing matches because everyone knows they cave in to strongarm tactics. The tactic of stopping Ronaldo make any runs at any cost was effective because in the second half he was non-existent and we'd obviously got to him - I wouldn't be shocked if other teams followed in our footsteps, and got away with it. I think we were genuinely trying to play the ball, it was simply the case that if you didn't get it, you made sure you brought him down to stop him running away with it.
As I said, I'm not going to argue that point. In terms of Arsenal losing, realistically they're losing because they have a very young, new team and they're missing one of the best players in the world and their only consistent goalscoring threat.

Quote:
Considering he's someone who plays the system himself by repeatedly diving and using his pace to deceive referees, I think it works both ways. He knows he might get booked but if he gets a penalty, it's worth it, not to mention that other defenders back off him fearing he might dive. He got a taste of his own medicine because if he even decided to get the ball he'd have a player coming into him double quick. There are players who take a booking for the team and they are widely appreciated by their own fans. Ronaldo just does it by diving or appealing when he trips over.
I don't support that either.

Quote:
I think Mourinho became a great manager when he won the champions league with Porto, cos he got a team who were nowhere near that level to go all the way. All Porto has done is open the door for him to manage big clubs and handle the best players. England fans would take him like a shot over any other manager. The problem with Terry and Lampard is that under Ranieri's expansive 4-4-2, Terry was over exposed to pace and Lampard's passing let him down to play 4-4-2. Mourinho has built a system to protect their weaknesses and play to their strengths because they have skills they are very good at and he wants to make the most of them.
Firstly one trophy doesn't make you a great manager, in ten years, or even now, how many people remember who managed Greece to Euro '04. Two players though? He's also got sheva and ballack, two great attacking footballers and he criminally underuses them. I don't think chelsea know their arse from their elbow to be honest. Becoming a great manager for me requires building a team which performs at a consistently high level or taking over a great team and keeping them playing at that level for a long time. It's also partially based on resources, you either have few and do very well off them or many and do superbly off them.

Quote:
When I watch Chelsea, I think they play almost like a top Italian side. Very slow, very patient, methodical but when they find a chance they can kill your team. I am surprised when people say they don't like that style of football because while it isn't all action, the moves that do come to fruition are ones that have been well thought through and very well executed.
Or Lampard or Drogba hits a shot from 30 yards which ricochets off four players and goes in. Adding up "good goals scored this year through teamwork" if Chelsea are ahead of Utd I will eat my computer.

Quote:
So basically you don't like Mourinho then. I don't think he cares for anyone other than himself, to be honest and he just wants to achieve for himself. If he wins the Champions League with Chelsea, I'm sure he'll quit and find himself a new challenge.
I certainly don't think much of Mourinho but that's not what it boils down to you. It's just that with a lot of clubs the manager is the front., the image and the ideas behind the team.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 11:00   #19
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As I've said already my initial line was mostly, and rather obviously, hyperbole.
Well it sounded complete cobblers and got my attention, anyway moving on.

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To be honest by about 1990 there were very few really good English players coming through. Largely as well they all come in the same roles. TheIt's a filter-down effect, top sides play the sort of football which doesn't encourage the development of the sort of players you need to compete at the highest level and this just trickles down to the lower leagues and to underage football. The standard of football dramatically improved in the premiership when players like Bergkamp and Zola started coming in. You haven't seen Spain or Italy have a drop-off in the quality of footballs they produce with the number of foreigners they have in their leagues do you?
The difference between England and Spain and Italy is that I'll bet English sides have more foreigners in their squads, simply because since the advent of the premiership money has swilled around the game and once stars like Bergkamp and Zola ended up causing everyone's wages and English players value to go up. I mean a good example is David Nugent who is a good player but when he goes to an English club he's going to cost £7M at least and he'll be on £40k a week. On the other hand, Yakubu was brought to England for less than a million (then sold for £7M when he became a proven premiership player), Benni McCarthy commanded less than what Nugent will cost and Nugent is going to only cost marginally less than what Anelka came to the premiership for (£9M) and he is a world class player.

The result is that English players have been frozen out to cut the wage bills, because the minute they get good, they cost a bomb. The result is that English footballers no longer make the grade, because instead of buying players like Kevin Keegan from S****horpe, the top clubs go and find the best talent from abroad. England used to have fantastic crop of players but after a lot of the good ones from the 1990 team got old, we've slowly become shite and the Premiership is largely to blame. Add on the fact that the top clubs are pillaging other clubs youth systems for their best players and can afford for these kids to fail and you wonder why England's youth is suffering? Only two teams outside the Premiership has what I'd call a proper youth setup, one is scum (who spent years up there to set it up) and the other is Crewe, who are struggling to keep it alive and only have it because they put ridiculous amounts of efforts in keeping it because they have a manager that does everything.

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And that's why I hope they won't win the league. Football, when it's very close can come down to small, marginal events which can just be the swing of luck. Personally if it comes down to that and Chelsea win by a point or something I'll find it very discouraging for the future of football.
So you don't find luck coming between two very evenly matched teams exciting?

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As I said, I'm not going to argue that point. In terms of Arsenal losing, realistically they're losing because they have a very young, new team and they're missing one of the best players in the world and their only consistent goalscoring threat.
The team that regularly show Arsenal up are Bolton, as they get into in them, disrupt their play constantly and just sit and laugh while Arsenal players throw a hissy fit about how they aren't being allowed to play football. Bolton get everything they deserve cos they've sussed Wenger, I think it's hilarious, cos Bolton are shat.

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I don't support that either.
I think fighting fire with fire was a great way to deal with it. The Leeds side under Don Revie in the early 70's are still hated for their strong arm tactics and gamesmanship, but no one will deny they were a great side.

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Firstly one trophy doesn't make you a great manager, in ten years, or even now, how many people remember who managed Greece to Euro '04. Two players though? He's also got sheva and ballack, two great attacking footballers and he criminally underuses them.
Well he's won titles in Portugal and won Chelsea's first title in 50 years with ease. Even these days Chelsea win games 1-0 without really being tested. In their first title winning season Chelsea were absolutely brilliant and a lot of sides were pretty helpless against them. Shevchenko to be fair is adapting. He's on 13 goals already this season, I'm pretty sure he'll make 20 which I think will be a good return. As for Ballack, he's a 4-4-2 player and doesn't really have the legs to cover the space out wide as well as go up and down. I think Ballack was a bad buy, if Mourinho bought him. Did Mourinho buy either? As for Greece, people can shun them for how they played but that's like saying it wasn't great that Wimbledon won the FA cup, as both teams were heavily unfancied, were insignificant sides in reality but bridged the gap to win a competition. That in my opinion, takes great management.

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I don't think chelsea know their arse from their elbow to be honest. Becoming a great manager for me requires building a team which performs at a consistently high level or taking over a great team and keeping them playing at that level for a long time. It's also partially based on resources, you either have few and do very well off them or many and do superbly off them.
I don't think Mourinho has had a bad season for the last 5 or 6 years? Last I checked Porto and Chelsea were playing at a pretty high level too? At Porto he won the champions league with little resources, now at Chelsea he has a lot of resources, as he would managing any of the top teams in the world. To be honest the proof in the pudding will be when Mourinho leaves, because then we'll probably find out that winning the title for Chelsea will become that much harder.

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Or Lampard or Drogba hits a shot from 30 yards which ricochets off four players and goes in. Adding up "good goals scored this year through teamwork" if Chelsea are ahead of Utd I will eat my computer.
So what you're criticising players for playing percentages and making good runs into space? Chelsea's teamwork involves sacrificing players who are tactically disciplined to create opportunities for players who's quality is finishing. It is an efficient, spartan way of playing football, it is not the only way to play football but it's a perfectly valid one and their squad is built for this.

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I certainly don't think much of Mourinho but that's not what it boils down to you. It's just that with a lot of clubs the manager is the front., the image and the ideas behind the team.
Mourinho seems to have sat back, watched football and thought "if we do X, Y and Z we will win games of football" and put his plan into action. It's worked for him, he's being highly successful with it and it's why I think he deserves quite a bit of respect as a football manager.
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 22:01   #20
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

I'd rest my case but I'm pretty sure it's crawled halfway down your throat to kick the crap out of you lok.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 00:08   #21
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I think Ballack was a bad buy, if Mourinho bought him. Did Mourinho buy either?
Ballack went on a Bosman transfer, I think Mourinho thoroughly enjoyed screwing Bayern over like that. Scheva definitely wasn't his buy though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood
how many people remember who managed Greece to Euro '04.
You mean Otto Rehhagel? (wikipedia:Otto_Rehhagel - silly postlimit for posting urls) He coached them the same way he coached practically all his other teams [and yes he's considered very successful in the Bundesliga] Granted it was ugly football, but he was tasked with doing his best with the talent he had available and he did rather well... Isn't that what a coach is supposed to do? [asses his strengths/weaknesses vs the opposition and find a tactic that wins etc] How many people considered Greece a country with decent football players before their Euro win?
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 00:21   #22
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

I wasn't really blaming him for it. Especially in international football where you have to work with what you have. Mourinho didn't have to. It's not like greece are a decent footballing country now though, they just scraped past malta 1-0 and got trashed 4-1 by turkey at home.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 00:35   #23
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'd rest my case but I'm pretty sure it's crawled halfway down your throat to kick the crap out of you lok.
Not at all, you just have a blinkered view on football which is based on everyone playing ways you hate which you think would make football crap. If everyone played open football, games would be pretty predictable and football would definitely be rubbish. Contrasting ways of playing are what make the game what it is because it creates competition and requires teams to think about how they are going to deal with that. It's not just about how a team plays to create interest, it's about how a team plans to win a match that is also interesting. Watching a team do stuff well can never ever be classified as bad football, it just can't.

I've not slated the passing game once yet you claim I want rid of it simply by defending Chelsea's style of play, I've just said that different styles of play are what make football, even if some are extremely cynical. A 7-1 doesn't prove anything at all apart from that United play open football and when their opposition cave in, they could get hammered. If Milan did them 1-0 on aggregate in the next round for example, United wouldn't deserve a bean, because they would have been outdone by a superior level of Italian defending. Managers make up their own ingenious methods of winning and tailor their squad accordingly. Not everyone, unsurprisingly, ascribes to one style of football. Infact the best football team would probably be one that could play any style well, but I'm not sure that team should ever exist, as they'd win all the time.

The style of play isn't just what creates a good style of football and entertainment. Football is about competing and winning too and all your vision does is reduce football to a bunch of exhibition matches, instead of a competition.

The greatest threat to football isn't how teams play, because teams have always played different ways, it's money, because money threatens to remove the one thing that makes football more interesting than it should be: competition.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 01:19   #24
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Not at all, you just have a blinkered view on football which is based on everyone playing ways you hate which you think would make football crap. If everyone played open football, games would be pretty predictable and football would definitely be rubbish.
I'm not advocating everyone play with 11 strikers and no goalkeeper here. If you think I am I'd say you have the blinkered view.

Quote:
Contrasting ways of playing are what make the game what it is because it creates competition and requires teams to think about how they are going to deal with that. It's not just about how a team plays to create interest, it's about how a team plans to win a match that is also interesting. Watching a team do stuff well can never ever be classified as bad football, it just can't.
Possibly uninteresting would be a better term than bad. I mean I'm sure there's a technique to getting the paint on a wall to dry in the perfect fashion but I doubt many people would sit down to watch the international championships of it.

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I've not slated the passing game once yet you claim I want rid of it simply by defending Chelsea's style of play,
Where did I claim that?

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I've just said that different styles of play are what make football, even if some are extremely cynical. A 7-1 doesn't prove anything at all apart from that United play open football and when their opposition cave in, they could get hammered. If Milan did them 1-0 on aggregate in the next round for example, United wouldn't deserve a bean, because they would have been outdone by a superior level of Italian defending. Managers make up their own ingenious methods of winning and tailor their squad accordingly. Not everyone, unsurprisingly, ascribes to one style of football. Infact the best football team would probably be one that could play any style well, but I'm not sure that team should ever exist, as they'd win all the time.
I'm sure we can all acknowledge the unlikelihood of a perfect football ateam ever existing. However my point is that if Utd lost on a bizzare decision, fluke goal it wouldn't really be deserved. Football is a game of inches, and sometimes the inches you fight for can just fall into the opponent's lap. This is how I'd view chelsea winning the league title this year, unless utd went into some insane spiral of shitness and lost four games between now and the end of the season. Interesting football isn't playing exactly the same tactics and style though, there is a lot of room for variation.

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The style of play isn't just what creates a good style of football and entertainment. Football is about competing and winning too and all your vision does is reduce football to a bunch of exhibition matches, instead of a competition.
But my vision isn't just about it. I pointed out only a short while ago that what made Utd's performance so great tonight was that they got stuck into Roma and played great attacking football. Those two elements are what makes a great performance. That's not what chelsea do.

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The greatest threat to football isn't how teams play, because teams have always played different ways, it's money, because money threatens to remove the one thing that makes football more interesting than it should be: competition.
The biggest threat to football is probably the existence of computer games but whatever.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 01:41   #25
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm not advocating everyone play with 11 strikers and no goalkeeper here. If you think I am I'd say you have the blinkered view.
Oh no, but you certainly are advocating that the only valid style is one where teams are set up to attack and pass it around when in possession. If you prefer certain players in your team, or just don't have good enough ones, this just isn't feasible. In fact no manager will think the same and I think variety of play makes the game interesting.

Quote:
Possibly uninteresting would be a better term than bad. I mean I'm sure there's a technique to getting the paint on a wall to dry in the perfect fashion but I doubt many people would sit down to watch the international championships of it.
See I don't just watch a game looking for great passages of play. I look to see if there is anything else of interest. How are a team setup? Why are they playing that way? What are they looking to achieve? Is it effective? If a team plays to a well thought out scheme and does it very well, then good for them I say.

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Where did I claim that?
By pretty much treating my defence of Chelsea as sacrilege and going on about how if everyone played that way football die i think I'm within my rights to infer it.

Quote:
I'm sure we can all acknowledge the unlikelihood of a perfect football ateam ever existing. However my point is that if Utd lost on a bizzare decision, fluke goal it wouldn't really be deserved. Football is a game of inches, and sometimes the inches you fight for can just fall into the opponent's lap. This is how I'd view chelsea winning the league title this year, unless utd went into some insane spiral of shitness and lost four games between now and the end of the season. Interesting football isn't playing exactly the same tactics and style though, there is a lot of room for variation.
Chelsea are merciless. They know the merits of hitting the ball first time, especially when there is a crowd of players and they are playing a wager which with the strikers of the ball they have, they know they are likely to succeed. It happens so often, it's fair to assume that it must be intentional, regardless of how scrappy it might look, I suspect luck has little to do with it. I'm 100% behind Essien hitting that shot first time in the 90th minute, it was the right thing to do and it produced. As for random events deciding games, that's football, it always had been.

Quote:
But my vision isn't just about it. I pointed out only a short while ago that what made Utd's performance so great tonight was that they got stuck into Roma and played great attacking football. Those two elements are what makes a great performance. That's not what chelsea do.
Chelsea defend, grind, probe then attack effectively and grind some more. They play with intensity and determination and play the percentages well. They play to a plan under a manager who has been observant. Their football is of absolute equal merit to United's, they just apply themselves differently.

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The biggest threat to football is probably the existence of computer games but whatever.
Well if there's no competition, it's not interesting. The gap in finances is why the premier league has become rubbish and why the top teams in europe are pretty much using european competition to finance themselves as incumbents of their domestic league by using the cash to bleed sides out of any talent that's available.

I'll conclude with this:

I want football teams to play however they want to play and how they feel comfortable playing. If they play that particular way well, then it's of equal merit to anyone playing another why. Anything beyond that is just personal preference.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 02:00   #26
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Oh no, but you certainly are advocating that the only valid style is one where teams are set up to attack and pass it around when in possession. If you prefer certain players in your team, or just don't have good enough ones, this just isn't feasible. In fact no manager will think the same and I think variety of play makes the game interesting.
To be honest I reckon chelsea easily could adapt to that style. The fact they haven't even bothered trying and have actively gone out and pursued a dull and grinding side makes the game uninteresting. There's a reason all the neutrals wanted to see Utd play roma ahead of chelsea play valencia tonight.

Quote:
See I don't just watch a game looking for great passages of play. I look to see if there is anything else of interest. How are a team setup? Why are they playing that way? What are they looking to achieve? Is it effective? If a team plays to a well thought out scheme and does it very well, then good for them I say.
I don't either and I do as well. However without both you might as well be playing curling or some god forsaken sport.

Quote:
By pretty much treating my defence of Chelsea as sacrilege and going on about how if everyone played that way football die i think I'm within my rights to infer it.
How did you interpret that? You're obviously saying "do whatever including foul the opposition relentlessly and deliberately is fine".

Quote:
Chelsea are merciless. They know the merits of hitting the ball first time, especially when there is a crowd of players and they are playing a wager which with the strikers of the ball they have, they know they are likely to succeed. It happens so often, it's fair to assume that it must be intentional, regardless of how scrappy it might look, I suspect luck has little to do with it. As for random events deciding games, that's football, it always had been.
Sure, but you said if they lost 1-0 they wouldn't deserve a bean. I'm pointing out how silly a statement that is.

Quote:
Chelsea defend, grind, probe then attack effectively and grind some more. They play with intensity and determination and play the percentages well. They play to a plan under a manager who has been observant. Their football is of absolute equal merit to United's, they just apply themselves differently.
I'd agree with your first three lines but I don't think football boils down to everything you said there. Above all else you have to be there to play football. I think this reflects itself in the fact that teams who play the most exciting football, as well as battle with the best of them, get the most respect.

Quote:
Well if there's no competition, it's not interesting. The gap in finances is why the premier league has become rubbish and why the top teams in europe are pretty much using european competition to finance themselves as incumbents of their domestic league by using the cash to bleed sides out of any talent that's available.
From 78 to 91 four sides won the league. From 93 to 06 four sides won the league. While I would agree this doesn't tell the whole story any side can still beat any side really and there is excitement in every aspect of the league, champions, champions league spots, uefa cup spots, relegation battle.

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I want football teams to play however they want to play and how they feel comfortable playing. If they play that particular way well, then it's of equal merit to anyone playing another why. Anything beyond that is just personal preference.
Well zonk, I was expressing a personal opinion. What on earth else would we be talking about? How having more than three negros in your team means you should be docked five points in the league? I'd rather see sides strive to play better football and achieve better results to be honest.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 02:43   #27
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
To be honest I reckon chelsea easily could adapt to that style. The fact they haven't even bothered trying and have actively gone out and pursued a dull and grinding side makes the game uninteresting. There's a reason all the neutrals wanted to see Utd play roma ahead of chelsea play valencia tonight.
I wasn't fussed, the first was bound to be a goal fest, the second was a challenge where the away team was going to have to be smart to get through. Given how Lampard was average playing that way and that Chelsea really don't have any wingers who track back to any degree, I think they could do it but they wouldn't be as successful as they are now with the squad they have.

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I don't either and I do as well. However without both you might as well be playing curling or some god forsaken sport.
I'm just willing to accept that sometimes you have to sacrifice one for the other, but in a game where the objective for a team is to win, entertaining at the expense of losing isn't what teams aim for.

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How did you interpret that? You're obviously saying "do whatever including foul the opposition relentlessly and deliberately is fine".
If they know the penalties, work out the cost within the rules, then yes they should play the system as it's another way of winning football matches, however unpopular it is. If you can win by giving away fouls that are pretty cheap from your point of view, then if I was a manager I would happily tell my team to do it if I felt it was the only way of succeeding in a match. This kind of tactic has to be played clever as go over the top, you get players sent off. This is not something I see as cheating - it is playing by and very much accepting the rules of the game. Like in Planetarion, if people become unhappy, the rules will change.

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Sure, but you said if they lost 1-0 they wouldn't deserve a bean. I'm pointing out how silly a statement that is.
I just pointed out that teams that are cynical (for example, Milan as an Italian side) are playing purely for the likelihood of certain events falling in their favour and they don't particularly care except to increase their chances of winning on that basis. A bad decision is something teams have no control over and it's just something that can turn a game. It's part and parcel of football and sometimes works for and against teams.

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I'd agree with your first three lines but I don't think football boils down to everything you said there. Above all else you have to be there to play football. I think this reflects itself in the fact that teams who play the most exciting football, as well as battle with the best of them, get the most respect.
Teams who play the most exciting football (Barcelona and Arsenal) only become arrogant and believe that they deserve to win matches because they play a certain way. It's a sure fire way to flag up your limitations and get beat. When Rijkaard frowned and said Liverpool weren't progressive at the Nou Camp you knew they'd been bettered by a defensive style of football that had been executed in a more superior fashion. It's the quality of execution that we should judge, not the way teams decide to play.

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From 78 to 91 four sides won the league. From 93 to 06 four sides won the league. While I would agree this doesn't tell the whole story any side can still beat any side really and there is excitement in every aspect of the league, champions, champions league spots, uefa cup spots, relegation battle.
The difference between the former and the latter is how much you get bankrolled. There are probably 15 teams in the premiership who will never win the title for 50 years the way it is going.

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Well zonk, I was expressing a personal opinion. What on earth else would we be talking about? How having more than three negros in your team means you should be docked five points in the league? I'd rather see sides strive to play better football and achieve better results to be honest.
No you're making unreasonable demands on teams to play the way you want them instead of playing in a way that suits them and they feel they can win games of football if they do it well enough. If a team does that consistently, they will be playing good football. Even Bolton.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 02:57   #28
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I wasn't fussed, the first was bound to be a goal fest, the second was a challenge where the away team was going to have to be smart to get through. Given how Lampard was average playing that way and that Chelsea really don't have any wingers who track back to any degree, I think they could do it but they wouldn't be as successful as they are now with the squad they have.
My point is largely that they built their team that way. They had bags of money and took the shit option.

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I'm just willing to accept that sometimes you have to sacrifice one for the other, but in a game where the objective for a team is to win, entertaining at the expense of losing isn't what teams aim for.
I'm not really suggesting it is. I'm criticising chelsea for playing winning while not bothering to play entertaining football really. Realistically these days football is a business and thankfully maybe chelsea will work out that to become the biggest club in the world they'll have to play a more attractive game.

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If they know the penalties, work out the cost within the rules, then yes they should play the system as it's another way of winning football matches, however unpopular it is. If you can win by giving away fouls that are pretty cheap from your point of view, then if I was a manager I would happily tell my team to do it if I felt it was the only way of succeeding in a match. This kind of tactic has to be played clever as go over the top, you get players sent off. This is not something I see as cheating - it is playing by and very much accepting the rules of the game. Like in Planetarion, if people become unhappy, the rules will change.
Oh come on. It's more analogous to people deliberately cheating in PA but knowing that they'll only get minor warnings/punishments for each time they do it so it's worth doing in the long run.

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I just pointed out that teams that are cynical (for example, Milan as an Italian side) are playing purely for the likelihood of certain events falling in their favour and they don't particularly care except to increase their chances of winning on that basis. A bad decision is something teams have no control over and it's just something that can turn a game. It's part and parcel of football and sometimes works for and against teams.
And as we all know Italian football has been doing so well in terms of attracting fans recently.

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Teams who play the most exciting football (Barcelona and Arsenal) only become arrogant and believe that they deserve to win matches because they play a certain way. It's a sure fire way to flag up your limitations and get beat. When Rijkaard frowned and said Liverpool weren't progressive at the Nou Camp you knew they'd been bettered by a defensive style of football that had been executed in a more superior fashion. It's the quality of execution that we should judge, not the way teams decide to play.
It's the overall package really. Liverpool put together one of the most asinine displays I've ever seen in the second half of the second leg against barca and to be honest I was praying they'd get punished for it. Largely teams think they're playing percentage football when really the percentages of actually playing proper football are pretty similar.

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The difference between the former and the latter is how much you get bankrolled. There are probably 15 teams in the premiership who will never win the title for 50 years the way it is going.
That's a fairly bold prediction. As you said if people are unhappy they'll probably change the rules.

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No you're making unreasonable demands on teams to play the way you want them instead of playing in a way that suits them and they feel they can win games of football if they do it well enough. If a team does that consistently, they will be playing good football. Even Bolton.
I'm pretty sure that's the first time anyone's used the words "good football" and "bolton" without the disclaimer "haven't played since christ was a little-known carpenter" in between.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 12:15   #29
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
My point is largely that they built their team that way. They had bags of money and took the shit option.
Took formula, got players, executed extremely well. Winning football can never be bad football, progressive or not.

Quote:
I'm not really suggesting it is. I'm criticising chelsea for playing winning while not bothering to play entertaining football really. Realistically these days football is a business and thankfully maybe chelsea will work out that to become the biggest club in the world they'll have to play a more attractive game.
Basically you want to dictate to Mourinho how to run his team, when you're in no position of expertise to do so. Managers are defined by their success and he has his way - if his team do it well well then good on them. Chelsea don't have to compromise anything - Liverpool made it as one of the biggest clubs in the world with a back 4 who lived off passing it back to goalkeeper to waste time, it was so good they got the rules changed. AC Milan and Juventus are arguably some of the world's biggest clubs and would never compromise their way of playing to gain more supporters.

Quote:
Oh come on. It's more analogous to people deliberately cheating in PA but knowing that they'll only get minor warnings/punishments for each time they do it so it's worth doing in the long run.
Not really, it's exploiting the rules to their maximum because the punishments are dished out and you fully accept them. The opposition might be upset but as someone who has been playing that way, it would make no odds to me. The referee has blown for a free kick, justice served as far as the rules of the game go. I would happily take a booking for my team if I was playing.

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And as we all know Italian football has been doing so well in terms of attracting fans recently.
Well when the administration is corrupt, people are hardly going to tune in to a league that might be fixed anyway. Not to mention the fact that violence is now out of control around football matches. I actually miss being able watch Italian football, it's a different way of playing. It's very slow but also technical and methodical. I wouldn't want to watch it all the time, but it's nice to know that it's there. You also forget that Italy is a country fiercely proud of its history in football and are deserved world champions. The whole interest of Europe is not just that the best teams play but that it's a clash of footballing cultures.

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It's the overall package really. Liverpool put together one of the most asinine displays I've ever seen in the second half of the second leg against barca and to be honest I was praying they'd get punished for it. Largely teams think they're playing percentage football when really the percentages of actually playing proper football are pretty similar.
Well no - because it depends on what players you have. Barcelona have a team that can play "proper football", they do it well and succeed quite regularly. Liverpool have a side designed to constrain the midfield, hold possession and then move in at the right opportunity and do well with it too. For Liverpool to open up against a team like Barcelona when they're winning would be tactical suicide. Arguing that a team like Barcelona should never compromise its style of play is madness because thats saying teams should never adapt to win matches. It's in this aspect that Rijkaard is weak because he wants to win one way because he thinks he has the best passing team and won't do anything except change positions and players if it goes wrong. If he can't appreciate that managers look at sides and players weaknesses and look to exploit them and doesn't develop his team to remain one step ahead, Barcelona deserve to lose matches quite honestly.

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That's a fairly bold prediction. As you said if people are unhappy they'll probably change the rules.
The only rules that will get changed is when the top clubs can't make enough money and go for a European superleague. The top 4 or 5 clubs aren't interested in 'competition' in any sense, except with each other, because if there was more, they would have to give up their money advantage that is europe. Given a chance they would sign their own TV deals and cast the other clubs to hell. Eventually, that's what will happen - G18 is the biggest threat to football there's ever been. These teams are just pillaging the grass roots of football, denying players time on the pitch and don't really mind if a lot of these kids just fail and fall behind having missed out on years when they could have been playing.

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I'm pretty sure that's the first time anyone's used the words "good football" and "bolton" without the disclaimer "haven't played since christ was a little-known carpenter" in between.
Bolton are organised, disciplined and very well drilled. They are very good at what they do and no side really plays like them, so I doubt they are a threat. But they have their own merits and chasing down Arsenal in 4th (although they probably won't get there because of the game in hand) is a massive achievement. The most similar team to them is probably Watford who are very bad at the same game plan so therein lies the difference, because what Watford are doing is very counterproductive because the formula doesn't really work for them. They need the other team to play badly to win.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 12:44   #30
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Basically you want to dictate to Mourinho how to run his team, when you're in no position of expertise to do so. Managers are defined by their success and he has his way - if his team do it well well then good on them. Chelsea don't have to compromise anything - Liverpool made it as one of the biggest clubs in the world with a back 4 who lived off passing it back to goalkeeper to waste time, it was so good they got the rules changed. AC Milan and Juventus are arguably some of the world's biggest clubs and would never compromise their way of playing to gain more supporters.
I'm in the same position all of us are in, that of a fan of football. I'm not saying they should be forced to play like this by the Association for Implementing Unnecessary Rules and Regulations. However we all have personal preferences, and some of our preferences have implications in the real world.

Quote:
Not really, it's exploiting the rules to their maximum because the punishments are dished out and you fully accept them. The opposition might be upset but as someone who has been playing that way, it would make no odds to me. The referee has blown for a free kick, justice served as far as the rules of the game go. I would happily take a booking for my team if I was playing.
Jesus christ dude, it's exactly the same thing and if you can't see this I'm actually not sure what else I can say.

Quote:
Well when the administration is corrupt, people are hardly going to tune in to a league that might be fixed anyway. Not to mention the fact that violence is now out of control around football matches. I actually miss being able watch Italian football, it's a different way of playing. It's very slow but also technical and methodical. I wouldn't want to watch it all the time, but it's nice to know that it's there. You also forget that Italy is a country fiercely proud of its history in football and are deserved world champions. The whole interest of Europe is not just that the best teams play but that it's a clash of footballing cultures.
The number of fans at football games in Italy was dropping off dramatically before the corruption scandals or the violence at the grounds.

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Well no - because it depends on what players you have. Barcelona have a team that can play "proper football", they do it well and succeed quite regularly. Liverpool have a side designed to constrain the midfield, hold possession and then move in at the right opportunity and do well with it too. For Liverpool to open up against a team like Barcelona when they're winning would be tactical suicide. Arguing that a team like Barcelona should never compromise its style of play is madness because thats saying teams should never adapt to win matches. It's in this aspect that Rijkaard is weak because he wants to win one way because he thinks he has the best passing team and won't do anything except change positions and players if it goes wrong. If he can't appreciate that managers look at sides and players weaknesses and look to exploit them and doesn't develop his team to remain one step ahead, Barcelona deserve to lose matches quite honestly.
You don't understand. There isn't a straight-forward choice between two and only two styles of football here. What pool should have done is maintain possession instead of hoofing it away and praying to god the final whistle would be blown before they concede again. And barcelona are losing because ronaldinho has lost a lot of his form of previous years and most of their players are now in it for themselves and have become a collection of individuals when they attack instead of a coherent team.

Quote:
The only rules that will get changed is when the top clubs can't make enough money and go for a European superleague. The top 4 or 5 clubs aren't interested in 'competition' in any sense, except with each other, because if there was more, they would have to give up their money advantage that is europe. Given a chance they would sign their own TV deals and cast the other clubs to hell. Eventually, that's what will happen - G18 is the biggest threat to football there's ever been. These teams are just pillaging the grass roots of football, denying players time on the pitch and don't really mind if a lot of these kids just fail and fall behind having missed out on years when they could have been playing.
Yeah. ****ing teams just being in it to win as many football games at the highest level as possible



Quote:
Bolton are organised, disciplined and very well drilled. They are very good at what they do and no side really plays like them, so I doubt they are a threat. But they have their own merits and chasing down Arsenal in 4th (although they probably won't get there because of the game in hand) is a massive achievement. The most similar team to them is probably Watford who are very bad at the same game plan so therein lies the difference, because what Watford are doing is very counterproductive because the formula doesn't really work for them. They need the other team to play badly to win.
I'll be very interested to see how Bolton do in the champions league next year actually, so I probably wouldn't be too annoyed if they finished ahead of arsenal. It could be quite funny after all!
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 13:19   #31
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm in the same position all of us are in, that of a fan of football. I'm not saying they should be forced to play like this by the Association for Implementing Unnecessary Rules and Regulations. However we all have personal preferences, and some of our preferences have implications in the real world.
A good defender should always always cut a player down who's about to score if he can't make a tackle and won't get sent off or give away a penalty. For me it's an easy decision. Kids who are training as defenders should be encouraged because the best defenders are the best decision makers, who decide when they can play the ball, when they can't and what the best thing to do as a result.

Quote:
Jesus christ dude, it's exactly the same thing and if you can't see this I'm actually not sure what else I can say.
The only reason warnings are given in Planetarion is because there is an element of doubt in what's been going on. If the rulebreaking was evident like in football, i.e. you saw that person logging in to someone else's account from their computer then you'ld just be closed straight off. Yellow cards are not about 'doubt' it's about how the game works and it invites percentages to be played because football only has 11 players and sending people off for any foul would be madness.

Quote:
The number of fans at football games in Italy was dropping off dramatically before the corruption scandals or the violence at the grounds.
Having browsed on that, it's not necessarily true. Milan had some massive attendances during their glory years of the early 90's but since 1990, Inter's fan base for example actually rose by 2001. Actually looking it at both teams have a fair amount of glory supporters. On top of that you've lost a massive club in Napoli who used to pull in 70000 a week in the top flight.

Quote:
You don't understand. There isn't a straight-forward choice between two and only two styles of football here. What pool should have done is maintain possession instead of hoofing it away and praying to god the final whistle would be blown before they concede again.
The point of hoofing it away is that the further the ball is away from the goal, the less the other team can hurt you, the defence can rest for a few moments against relentless attacks and you can press further up the field and if you get lucky, score on the break and really kill the game.

Quote:
And barcelona are losing because ronaldinho has lost a lot of his form of previous years and most of their players are now in it for themselves and have become a collection of individuals when they attack instead of a coherent team.
Then Rijkaard is in denial and should stop attacking Liverpool for their effective style of play. And honestly he should see that his team is vulnerable to balls hurled into the box and do something about it.

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Yeah. ****ing teams just being in it to win as many football games at the highest level as possible
The issue with this is not how teams play football, far from it. This is about taking away talent and wasting it by not playing it and letting careers that would otherwise have been successful fall on the scrapheap and taking the one or two that make it. Because whatever way you play you increase your chance of winning with the best players. Like i've said football isn't just about entertainment, it's about competition and raping teams of talent and letting them sit in your reserves just isn't competitive at all. Football clubs now probably spend more money on wages than actual fees for players because they can get a player young, offer him a wage that's beyond his wildest dreams and leave the club penniless. The only exception is scummer Walcott who cost Arsenal a packet because he wanted his club to have a fee, so regardless of his background he's pretty much a shining example to other young players. It annoyed me because the scum got money, but I admire his behaviour.

The result is that smaller clubs can't compete in any sense whatever way they decide to play football and as a result you have a lot of poorer matches because the players are less capable to carry out their manager's wishes. Teams have always wanted to win, it's just that the game these days is so financially skewed that it allows the bigger clubs to use their pots of money to actually harm football. Leeds and Chelsea tried to break the hegemony of Liverpool, Arsenal and Manchester United in the late 90's. Leeds, one of the biggest clubs in the land nearly went out of existence. Chelsea were going to make Leeds look financially awesome before Abramovich intervened. It's clubs like these that show exactly what the other clubs are up against to succeed because of disproportionate amounts of TV money.

Football could be a better game and make the same amount of money with less revenue and less money swilling round the business, I genuinely believe that.

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I'll be very interested to see how Bolton do in the champions league next year actually, so I probably wouldn't be too annoyed if they finished ahead of arsenal. It could be quite funny after all!
It would be surreal, that's for sure. Their last european campaign ended in the Stade Velodrome in Marseille, which is a tough ask for many teams.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 13:36   #32
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
A good defender should always always cut a player down who's about to score if he can't make a tackle and won't get sent off or give away a penalty. For me it's an easy decision. Kids who are training as defenders should be encouraged because the best defenders are the best decision makers, who decide when they can play the ball, when they can't and what the best thing to do as a result.
Good thing you're not coaching a football team. Just as a hint sometimes accepting being a goal down is better than accepting being a man down.

Quote:
The only reason warnings are given in Planetarion is because there is an element of doubt in what's been going on. If the rulebreaking was evident like in football, i.e. you saw that person logging in to someone else's account from their computer then you'ld just be closed straight off. Yellow cards are not about 'doubt' it's about how the game works and it invites percentages to be played because football only has 11 players and sending people off for any foul would be madness.
The doubt element in football concerns whether or not the foul is deliberate or not. Yellow cards were not introduced to allow you to hack the opposition down, they were introduced to allow for errors in timing tackles.

Quote:
Having browsed on that, it's not necessarily true. Milan had some massive attendances during their glory years of the early 90's but since 1990, Inter's fan base for example actually rose by 2001. Actually looking it at both teams have a fair amount of glory supporters. On top of that you've lost a massive club in Napoli who used to pull in 70000 a week in the top flight.
18, 21, 25, 25, 25, 26, 29, 30, 31, 31. That's the average attendance figure in thousands for Serie A over the past ten years.

Quote:
The point of hoofing it away is that the further the ball is away from the goal, the less the other team can hurt you, the defence can rest for a few moments against relentless attacks and you can press further up the field and if you get lucky, score on the break and really kill the game.
Liverpool didn't even have a player anywhere near the ball when it was hoofed away. Not even on approximately the same line going the whole way across the pitch. Next question please.

Quote:
Then Rijkaard is in denial and should stop attacking Liverpool for their effective style of play. And honestly he should see that his team is vulnerable to balls hurled into the box and do something about it.
I've been talking about this for large parts of the year.

Quote:
The issue with this is not how teams play football, far from it. This is about taking away talent and wasting it by not playing it and letting careers that would otherwise have been successful fall on the scrapheap and taking the one or two that make it. Because whatever way you play you increase your chance of winning with the best players. Like i've said football isn't just about entertainment, it's about competition and raping teams of talent and letting them sit in your reserves just isn't competitive at all. Football clubs now probably spend more money on wages than actual fees for players because they can get a player young, offer him a wage that's beyond his wildest dreams and leave the club penniless. The only exception is scummer Walcott who cost Arsenal a packet because he wanted his club to have a fee, so regardless of his background he's pretty much a shining example to other young players. It annoyed me because the scum got money, but I admire his behaviour.
Competition for football boils down to the teams. If you're going to encourage the teams to get the result by playing any way they can on the field they're going to do the same off it and complaining about it is just hypocrisy.

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The result is that smaller clubs can't compete in any sense whatever way they decide to play football and as a result you have a lot of poorer matches because the players are less capable to carry out their manager's wishes. Teams have always wanted to win, it's just that the game these days is so financially skewed that it allows the bigger clubs to use their pots of money to actually harm football. Leeds and Chelsea tried to break the hegemony of Liverpool, Arsenal and Manchester United in the late 90's. Leeds, one of the biggest clubs in the land nearly went out of existence. Chelsea were going to make Leeds look financially awesome before Abramovich intervened. It's clubs like these that show exactly what the other clubs are up against to succeed because of disproportionate amounts of TV money.
Guess what, your single-minded focus on results, as reflected in many others, is to blame.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 14:34   #33
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

interesting.

Claiming liverpool didnt deserve to beat barcelona is pretty silly though. They took their chances; and probably created the more clear cut chances over 2 legs as well. Watching them hang around like sitting ducks waiting for Barcelona to make it 0-2 was pretty bad but more than anything that was because the entire team was knackered. They effectively controlled the game for the majority of the tie and if Crouchinho could have finished his dinner then the game might have been over a long time before the nervous 80s. I think you're letting a little too much of your liverpool h8 creep into your analysis, i thought some of liverpools football was fantastic; i didnt see Barcelona fullbacks making the same impact that Riise did in the tie, for example.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 14:40   #34
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

If the game had ended at halftime in the second leg I would never have questioned anything. However the way they acted towards the end just wasn't football and it took a lot away from what preceded it. I still probably wouldn't quite say they didn't deserve to win. They played good football for a lot of the tie. It's just like watching a good film for 90 minutes and then getting nailed by the most dire last half an hour imaginable.
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Unread 11 Apr 2007, 15:23   #35
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Good thing you're not coaching a football team. Just as a hint sometimes accepting being a goal down is better than accepting being a man down.
I didn't say they should do it if they risked a red card.

Quote:
The doubt element in football concerns whether or not the foul is deliberate or not. Yellow cards were not introduced to allow you to hack the opposition down, they were introduced to allow for errors in timing tackles.
The reality is that there is a limited situation where a red card will happen where there are defenders behind the ball, usually if the tackle is dangerous.

Quote:
18, 21, 25, 25, 25, 26, 29, 30, 31, 31. That's the average attendance figure in thousands for Serie A over the past ten years.
Fine, but I think the Italian way of playing is still extremely valid, they deserved to win the world cup because they did what they wanted very well. People throw stones at the Italian style but when it's well done, it's one of the best kinds of football not just in terms of winning but in my opinion to watch. There was a period when they were over obsessed with defence and this was putting too much pressure on the whole team to score and defend and it didn't work.

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Liverpool didn't even have a player anywhere near the ball when it was hoofed away. Not even on approximately the same line going the whole way across the pitch. Next question please.
They they could have done it better, what more can I say. Sometimes 'get it out' is the best option when teams are just running at you because the last thing you want is for an attacker to nick the ball and get a shot away.

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I've been talking about this for large parts of the year.
I'm pretty much saying that the deficiencies in his own team and Liverpool's relentless exploitation of them justifies the way Liverpool played.

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Competition for football boils down to the teams. If you're going to encourage the teams to get the result by playing any way they can on the field they're going to do the same off it and complaining about it is just hypocrisy....Guess what, your single-minded focus on results, as reflected in many others, is to blame.
Not at all, money has just put undue pressure on teams because now they have too much to lose, because you can't just lose games, you can lose millions. I don't think money affects how teams play, given how sides have stayed up and won titles in the Premier league via different styles of football. The money just made the people who run the financial side of the top clubs to use their financial muscle to prevent other clubs getting their hands on players who might let their opposition compete. It's especially true with Premiership clubs who are by far the richest and it speaks volumes when even Laporta won't talk about the youth team out of fear that the club will lose their best kids. It's that ridiculous level of funding that will see even your dearest team muscled out and losing out on talent, which I don't think anyone would want. The marketing of the EPL will beat any other team hands down and unless the US starts loving football and football really dies, we'll have the best funded football teams.

Well executed football (in terms of technique and mentality), whatever style you play will near always be winning football. There is always pressure to do well and get results, whether you do it by passing it round, playing it long, keeping it tight etc.

Quote:
If the game had ended at halftime in the second leg I would never have questioned anything. However the way they acted towards the end just wasn't football and it took a lot away from what preceded it. I still probably wouldn't quite say they didn't deserve to win. They played good football for a lot of the tie. It's just like watching a good film for 90 minutes and then getting nailed by the most dire last half an hour imaginable.
They closed the game out by stopping any game of football taking place, because they needed to. What do you expect?
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Unread 22 Apr 2007, 15:33   #36
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

:crymeariver:
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Unread 22 Apr 2007, 15:55   #37
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Luton is relegated, and Cambridge is still in the danger zone. luckily they won away against Aldershot though. Football is more fun down in the salami divisions.
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Unread 22 Apr 2007, 16:03   #38
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

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:crymeariver:
I share your pain.
We would have been in such a good position had w beaten Newcastle
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Unread 22 Apr 2007, 16:07   #39
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

celtic finally eeked out the crappiest 2-1 win in the history of the season (and we've had about 12 crap two-one wins).

Nakamura last minute freekick to win the title.

Bliss.

After-party at castle greyskull next week!
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Unread 22 Apr 2007, 17:03   #40
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Chelsea should beware, couse we are getting dangerous on set pieces now!!!!!!

(and thats the only thing Arsenal can do right atm)
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Unread 22 Apr 2007, 17:09   #41
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

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Once the style of football becomes irrelevant the game might as well be dead.

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Unread 22 Apr 2007, 20:27   #42
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Re: [Football] I'm so happy...

Indeed.

Arsenal have taken 6 points from Manchester United, and 0 from West Ham....
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