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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 17:37   #1
The General8
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Tuition Fees

I’m currently doing an essay for collage on the whether or not i agree with the current University Tuition fees system and i was wondering what all your views on the subject are? Should education be free? Should those than can afford pay? or should we all pay?

Just after some different views
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 17:42   #2
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Re: Tuition Fees

Education should be accesable for everybody up to a certain point.

Everybody should get upto his masters degree, after that he can earn it for himself.

Let's put it differently, I think everybody has the right to get to primary school, highschool/college/lyceum/grammar school and then to or a craftsschool, or a bachelors degree or a mastersdegree. But not a craftsschool, then a bachelors degree and then a mastersdegree (in other words, making a school career, I think that if you wanted to do that you should've started with university right away....)
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 18:04   #3
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Re: Tuition Fees

Yeah, up to their BA, based on ability to a large degree. Not everyone can bum around in uni and come out with some sort of stupid degree though; theres a base level of smart needed to pull off that trick
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 18:12   #4
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion
Education should be accesable for everybody up to a certain point.

Everybody should get upto his masters degree, after that he can earn it for himself.

Let's put it differently, I think everybody has the right to get to primary school, highschool/college/lyceum/grammar school and then to or a craftsschool, or a bachelors degree or a mastersdegree. But not a craftsschool, then a bachelors degree and then a mastersdegree (in other words, making a school career, I think that if you wanted to do that you should've started with university right away....)
So if someone doesn't stick to the same career plan that they had at the age of 17 then they're on their own? Charming.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 18:36   #5
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by The General8
I’m currently doing an essay for collage on the whether or not i agree with the current University Tuition fees system and i was wondering what all your views on the subject are? Should education be free? Should those than can afford pay? or should we all pay?

Just after some different views
Should education be free? Well, yes, that would be nice. Unfortunately though we live in a world where lecturers and tutors expect to get paid and facilities don't build themselves. So somebody has to pay one way or another.

The way it works in England is that students are charged annual tuition fees. The trick is though that they only pay these tuition fees back when they are earning over a certain amount of money. They also only pay back a certain percentage of their salary (for me it's 9%, I graduated a fair few years ago though and I don't know what current graduates are paying). This system is perfectly fine with me seeing as people only pay as and when they can afford it. It's a better system than paying for it out of general taxation seeing as those people who get the benefit of higher education are the ones paying for it.

I think people from poor backgrounds are exempt from paying these tuition fees. This is moronic seeing as they would only have paid back the fees when they could afford to anyway. How much your parents earn shouldn't have any bearing on this.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 19:08   #6
The General8
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I think people from poor backgrounds are exempt from paying these tuition fees. This is moronic seeing as they would only have paid back the fees when they could afford to anyway. How much your parents earn shouldn't have any bearing on this.
I think the issue is that is NOT the case

I have had people telling me that i should not go to uni as i wont be able to afford it, screw them tbh, im determinded to go! ill never forget the day somone told me "if they dont have a degree we put the application in the bin!"
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 19:35   #7
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Exclamation Re: Tuition Fees

I believe we've covered this before but I don't think higher education needs to be free or even subsidized. In the US, each year of post-secondary education adds, on average, about $225K to your expected lifetime earnings*. Given that, higher education is a good investment even if you have to borrow money to pay for it. If you can work your way through college or qualify for a scholarship then of course it's an even better investment.

The effect of tuition subsidies is to increase demand for education which drives tuition fees up higher.






*By way of comparison, the cost of tuition plus room and board at a 4-year state university in the US averages $8600/year. All statistics as of 2002.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:09   #8
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Re: Tuition Fees

people should have to pay the full fees for university rather than the heavily subsidised ones people pay in the uk, otherwise you end up with eevryone having a degree and it becoming totally worthless like it is now
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:15   #9
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Re: Tuition Fees

God forbid the education level of society should be raised. How awful would that be?
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:24   #10
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Re: Tuition Fees

I want things and other people should pay for them, here is my list of demands;
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:30   #11
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
The way it works in England is that students are charged annual tuition fees. The trick is though that they only pay these tuition fees back when they are earning over a certain amount of money. They also only pay back a certain percentage of their salary (for me it's 9%, I graduated a fair few years ago though and I don't know what current graduates are paying). This system is perfectly fine with me seeing as people only pay as and when they can afford it. It's a better system than paying for it out of general taxation seeing as those people who get the benefit of higher education are the ones paying for it.
But UK tuition costs are paid out of general taxation - around £4.5 billion a year to be precise. The fees that students pay are nowhere near enough to cover the cost of education; the remainder is subsidised by the government.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:32   #12
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Re: Tuition Fees

I pay large amounts of taxes so that Nodrog can spend his entire life in heavily subsidised education and tell me how stupid I am for being happy to pay taxes to subsidise his education.

Neither of these facts troubles me; however I am conscious of the danger of ever accidentally being led to belive that he's a rational human being.

Fortunately such circumstances have not arisen.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:34   #13
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Re: Tuition Fees

I didn't have to pay any fees and I got a £1500 a year grant from the Welsh assembly. I did have to take out the maximum student loan in order to survive which I now pay back at 9% on everything over £15000. I got a brilliant deal for university, any arguments about fees as they are now putting off poorer students are rubbish, it's the middle class that the fees really hurt. I had to pay for my masters though but again that was worth it.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:37   #14
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I believe we've covered this before but I don't think higher education needs to be free or even subsidized. In the US, each year of post-secondary education adds, on average, about $225K to your expected lifetime earnings*. Given that, higher education is a good investment even if you have to borrow money to pay for it. If you can work your way through college or qualify for a scholarship then of course it's an even better investment.
.
Statistics like this seem dubious since I assume theyre skewed fairly heavily by degrees such as medicine and law - it's not very clear why having a degree in English literature or theoretical physics is going to increase your lifetime earnings significantly. There's also a causation != correlation argument that people who are 'smart'/hard-working (haha) enough to get into university are on average more likely to earn more than those who arent even without the benefits of further education.

Apart from anything else, it makes the idea of a university education out to be something you just do in order to get a job. This ignores the fact that a) most people dont directly use their degree in whatever it is they do afterwards, and b) universities used to be considered institutes of learning rather than something to put on a bullet point in your CV.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:38   #15
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Re: Tuition Fees

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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
people should have to pay the full fees for university rather than the heavily subsidised ones people pay in the uk, otherwise you end up with eevryone having a degree and it becoming totally worthless like it is now
The real problem with the British University system is twofold:

1) Employers don't differentiate between real courses and mickey mouse courses. I heard on the radio recently that of the top 5 courses studied at University only 1 of them was a "traditional" (ie not mickey mouse) course, this one being English. More often than not a graduate employer will ask that the applicant has a 2:1 grade, regardless of what course they studied.

2) Employers don't particularly care what University you went to. They'll pay attention if you say you went to Oxford or Cambridge but everywhere else is all the same to them.

The government can do a lot to tackle these problems. For example they can go back to the polytechnic system. Back in the old days we had Universities and polytechnics, either one gave you a degree but a degree from a University was worth more. Then in 1995 (or thereabouts) all polytechnics magically became Universites. The quality of the teaching didn't get any better, it was just decided that this would be done.

If we cut back on institutions that call themselves Universities (by renaming the crap ones as something else) and we reduce the number of people doing mickey mouse courses then degrees will suddenly become worth something again.

Also, forcing people to pay full tuition fees is fair enough but the devil is in the detail. If you force people to pay this up front then sure, you're going to get fewer people going to University but all you're getting is the richest kids going, not the smartest.

If on the other hand you're going to have a low interest loan which is paid back through means testing (what we currently have) then the deterrent for poor people will be less. Some people will see the huge debt that they will have once they've graduated and decide not to bother with it but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:39   #16
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I pay large amounts of taxes so that Nodrog can spend his entire life in heavily subsidised education and tell me how stupid I am for being happy to pay taxes to subsidise his education.
Ah, the ironies of the modern world.

Last edited by Nodrog; 13 Mar 2007 at 22:48.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 22:45   #17
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
The real problem with the British University system is twofold:

1) Employers don't differentiate between real courses and mickey mouse courses. I heard on the radio recently that of the top 5 courses studied at University only 1 of them was a "traditional" (ie not mickey mouse) course, this one being English. More often than not a graduate employer will ask that the applicant has a 2:1 grade, regardless of what course they studied.
The distinction between mickey mouse and 'traditional' subjects is somewhat dubious, since a lot of 'traditional' subjects are fairly useless (hello Classics, hello Theology) and are considered prestigious largely for historical reasons rather than any because of any intrinsic worth. Similarly there are 'joke' subjects which tackle issues which are more relevant to the modern world than a lot of traditional ones (eg media studies). To the extent that there is a problem with 'mickey mouse' subjects, its normally a problem relating to how these are taught rather than the subjects themselves.

Quote:
2) Employers don't particularly care what University you went to. They'll pay attention if you say you went to Oxford or Cambridge but everywhere else is all the same to them.
The real problem is deeper than this, namely that going to university shouldnt be considered a step on the path to getting a job unless you want to work in a field related to your degree area. If employers dont care about where a degree is from, this is most likely because the contents of the degree arent particularly relevant to what theyre employing you for.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 23:03   #18
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If employers dont care about where a degree is from, this is most likely because the contents of the degree arent particularly relevant to what theyre employing you for.
My point is that a 2:2 from a good University is worth more than a 2:1 from a crap University, yet employers don't take this into account in their recruitment process. Sure, the specifics of what you learnt will most of the time be of no real use to your employer but where you went does (or should) matter. Also my point about mickey mouse courses is that the difficulty of courses varies wildly but employers don't care about that, they just care about the grade you got which is just a part of the whole picture. The government should help employers differentiate between high quality graduates and low quality graduates but at the moment all it cares about is packing as many people into University as possible and at the end of it saying "Oh aren't we great, over 50% of our kids now go into higher education."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The real problem is deeper than this, namely that going to university shouldnt be considered a step on the path to getting a job unless you want to work in a field related to your degree area.
I think it should. Billions of pounds a year are plowed into the University system (like you say, most of it through general taxation) so the least it should have to show for it is some sort of screening process for employers to use when recruiting.

If someone studies English for example, then you could say that the only use they could have for it is becoming an English teacher or lecturer. I don't think so though. A degree that taxes your brain shows that you have some aptitude for learning and (more importantly) that you have the motivation and persistence to complete a 3 year degree. These skills can be used in many different fields, not just one that involves analysing Shakespeare.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 23:56   #19
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Re: Tuition Fees

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Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
My point is that a 2:2 from a good University is worth more than a 2:1 from a crap University, yet employers don't take this into account in their recruitment process.
They do though. At any company worth a dam on their website it might say that all they require is a 2:1 but in reality a preference is given for a traditional/related subject and a higher quality university. See how many people from Thames Valley University you get working for one of the big investment banks.

The problem occurs if you have a 2:2 from a good university in a hard subject, then you're pretty much screwed since they won't even look at you, case in point there's a girl who's stuck in reception at my work with a 2:2 in Maths from UCL. If you come out with a 1st or 2:1 from a good university in a strong subject then you're going to be worth far more than someone from a poor university, recruiters get paid a load of money to be able to differentiate these things plus after the 17 rounds of interviews and assessments you have to go through any weak candidates are filtered out.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 01:10   #20
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
The problem occurs if you have a 2:2 from a good university in a hard subject, then you're pretty much screwed since they won't even look at you, case in point there's a girl who's stuck in reception at my work with a 2:2 in Maths from UCL. If you come out with a 1st or 2:1 from a good university in a strong subject then you're going to be worth far more than someone from a poor university, recruiters get paid a load of money to be able to differentiate these things plus after the 17 rounds of interviews and assessments you have to go through any weak candidates are filtered out.
Oh it's me!


At the moment I'm getting away with saying that I expect a 2:1. But I'm in severe danger of getting a 2:2 (I'm borderline and finding this year hard).

I'm at Cardiff Uni (a typical good university) doing Law (bloody difficult), and I'm scared shitless that if I don't have a job lined up for when I graduate then I'll struggle to get one at all.


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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 05:16   #21
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Exclamation Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Statistics like this seem dubious since I assume theyre skewed fairly heavily by degrees such as medicine and law - it's not very clear why having a degree in English literature or theoretical physics is going to increase your lifetime earnings significantly.
It's not just the average earnings that are so much higher but also the median earnings. For example, in the US the median salaries for college graduates are 62% higher than for high school graduates, so it's not just the case of a few really high salaries skewing averages.
Quote:
There's also a causation != correlation argument that people who are 'smart'/hard-working (haha) enough to get into university are on average more likely to earn more than those who arent even without the benefits of further education.
To the extent that's true it would seem to undermine the case for tuition subsidies even further. Why do smart, hard-working people need to be subsidized?
Quote:
Apart from anything else, it makes the idea of a university education out to be something you just do in order to get a job.
A university education should help you in most areas of your life, including getting a (better) job. The point is simply that education almost always pays for itself.
Quote:
This ignores the fact that a) most people dont directly use their degree in whatever it is they do afterwards,
I'm not sure that's really relevant because I think you should get a lot more from a degree than just a pile of facts related to a particular discipline. You should refine your ability to think, learn how to research things you don't know, how to organize your thoughts, how to express your ideas clearly, and how to work towards a goal that takes years of effort. These are skills that ought to be useful in a wide variety of jobs and even outside of work as well.
Quote:
and b) universities used to be considered institutes of learning rather than something to put on a bullet point in your CV.
Can't they be both?
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 07:25   #22
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
The problem occurs if you have a 2:2 from a good university in a hard subject, then you're pretty much screwed since they won't even look at you, case in point there's a girl who's stuck in reception at my work with a 2:2 in Maths from UCL.
I have a 2:2 in an easy subject (Politics) from an average Uni (QMW). It should be a 2:1, but I ceased paying attention at the end of my degree, blah, blah you know the rest.

Anyway, it probably held me back and meant I entered the job market at the very low end instead of the graduate end, but if you're capable it eventually shows even if you're working on a reception and you can drift upwards overtime. It just means it takes a lot longer to get there.

To be quite honest, beyond entry level positions, degrees should barely matter. If someone is being interviewed for a Director position somewhere and they are 35-40 years old, if the recruitment panel is seriously still looking at their degree and not their track-record then I'd be very worried if I was an investor in that company (unless it was a "everything else is equal" sort of thing).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But UK tuition costs are paid out of general taxation - around £4.5 billion a year to be precise. The fees that students pay are nowhere near enough to cover the cost of education; the remainder is subsidised by the government.
A lot of Universities use foriegn students to fund things as well. From what I remember, the LSE only receive 11% of their funding from the government directly although they are probably an exception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tact
I believe we've covered this before but I don't think higher education needs to be free or even subsidized.
In the interests of equality/equity, the government would probably have to stand as a final guarantor to some loans though, which is a form of subsidy anyway. I wouldn't have minded getting out a hundred grand loan, but given I don't own any assets to secure it on (and neither do any of my relatives) this might have proven difficult.

In South Africa, the situation seems to be for a lot of people (who don't qualify for government assistance) that if their parents aren't owner occupiers (and thus can sign as guarantors) they can't get student loans and thus attend Uni. That seems slightly unfair to say the least.

(Also, I'd tend to agree with Nod, that the "added value of degree" stats are very dodgy. If you completely abolished university globally then the top 5% of high school graduates would probably still end up roughly in the top 5% of jobs although obviously productivity generally would suffer)
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 14:18   #23
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Re: Tuition Fees

free up to the age of 18

free if you complete the course

free if you dont complete the course due to extreme circumstances ( eg: debilitating illness, or accident)

dont complete, flunk out... whatever... all costs to go to the student.

basically, same system as we have now, but you end up with a credit on your account making it 0 if you complete the course ( note i dont say pass the course )
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 15:31   #24
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Re: Tuition Fees

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
So if someone doesn't stick to the same career plan that they had at the age of 17 then they're on their own? Charming.
You have already gotten an education with which you can make money.

Maybe some work/study program could be set up, but I do not think those should get the same ammount of money compared to someone who went 'straight' to university.

Talent and hard work should be rewarded.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 15:34   #25
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Re: Tuition Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
free up to the age of 18

free if you complete the course

free if you dont complete the course due to extreme circumstances ( eg: debilitating illness, or accident)

dont complete, flunk out... whatever... all costs to go to the student.
What are the benefits from a system which forces people to stay in a course which they no longer wish to be in?


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Talent and hard work generally rewards itself regardless of whether the government is giving you money.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 18:30   #26
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Re: Tuition Fees

hey I heard that the people who are in the higher income bands generally went to university. Do you think that they might be paying more in taxes (over their lifetimes) than they cost the state in education?
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 20:54   #27
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Re: Tuition Fees

I am a filthy capitalist.

Even I understand that you spend money to make money.
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