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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 18:55   #1
All Systems Go
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We should just send the entire family

It looks like Prince Harry is going to Iraq. Whilst I really couldn't care less if he dies or not, some people do. Being third in line to the throne he may become an obvious target for attack. After hearing on the radio that they are anticipating this might happen and that he will be given extra security the question arose in my mind, is his presence there actually going to do any good for the British army?

they do not have the necessary resources already so why waste them on one person?
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 19:10   #2
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Re: We should just send the entire family

If anything it adds an extra incentive to the insurgents. But if he dies we'll have to put up with a horrible new wave of British nationalism so i hope he gets dishonourably discharged and we can maybe change our appalling political system on the back of it.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 19:38   #3
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It looks like Prince Harry is going to Iraq. Whilst I really couldn't care less if he dies or not, some people do. Being third in line to the throne he may become an obvious target for attack. After hearing on the radio that they are anticipating this might happen and that he will be given extra security the question arose in my mind, is his presence there actually going to do any good for the British army?

they do not have the necessary resources already so why waste them on one person?

Got to say .. he was told he didnt have to go and basically asked to go because he felt it was unfair for the people he trained with to go and him not.

Thats fair ... he doesnt like the idea that he get preferential treatment, they could go to iraq and die, while he sits home and is safe, i'm sure that they have pointed out that the people hes going with will be in slightly more danger since hes there.

BUT:
the poor guys damned if he does and damned if he doesnt in the eyes of the press, if he didnt go, then he'd be branded a coward by the trash papers and will branded a hero but putting others lives in danger if he does.

basically hes screwed either way by the tabloid press.

Hes a soldier, he follows orders, if the army really didnt want him to go and ordered him to another place then thats where he would go.

So give the army some portion of the blame on this issue .
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 19:46   #4
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Re: We should just send the entire family

I give British society all of the blame for allowing such a monstrocity as the Royal Family to exist in the day and age.

/me awaits nuclear level neg rep from Furball.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 19:49   #5
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I give British society all of the blame for allowing such a monstrocity as the Royal Family to exist in the day and age.

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Well they are good for tourism, and who would the tabloids pick on when they dont have a good story for the front page if we didnt :P
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 19:54   #6
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Re: We should just send the entire family

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Originally Posted by Mistwraith
Well they are good for tourism, and who would the tabloids pick on when they dont have a good story for the front page if we didnt :P
I also give British society all of the blame for allowing such a monstrocity as the tabloids to exist in this day and age.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 20:19   #7
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Re: We should just send the entire family

regardless of your personal opinion it actually does matter to the army who are quite fiercly loyal to the monarchy.

One of the benefits of a politically neutral head of state is that those asked to die for their country are given the solace of a permanent regime to be loyal to.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 20:52   #8
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Re: We should just send the entire family

i heard unquestioned loyalty and patriotism are good things and not brainwashing in the slightest
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 21:22   #9
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Re: We should just send the entire family

In a society like the one we have where the sons and daughters of the rich live a privileged life, and the sons and daughters of the poor and middle class are the ones who populate a volunteer armed forces, it is refreshing to see a person of his stature step up and go to the forefront of the war.

Yes, his presence there is going to add fuel to an already roaring fire, but its not like our people fighting in Iraq are going daily with nobody attacking them and they don't have anything to worry about already. Terrorists may try a bit harder to kill him, but its not like they weren't trying already to kill our people. If he dies, it will be a shame, but no more of a shame than anyone else that has volunteered and gone over there and died doing the same thing.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 21:32   #10
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Re: We should just send the entire family

sod sending all the royals, ship blair off there.
He helped create that mess - he can damn well suffer the consequences of it
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 22:23   #11
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
After hearing on the radio that they are anticipating this might happen and that he will be given extra security the question arose in my mind, is his presence there actually going to do any good for the British army?
I'm not a military strategist by any means, but I would imagine that having a target for your enemey to throw a disproportionate amount of resources against would be a tactical advantage (if the target itself was basically worthless). It's not like if they kill him the rest of the British army blow up like the Commander died in Total Annihilation.

Propaganda-wise this is unlikely to matter much to people in Iraq - even if the British monarch is a religious figure I'm not sure that's fully appreciated abroad. Now, if the Pope was sent over there to do some killin' then there might be some action, but some random toff? Pffft. In Britain it's likely this will reduce support for the monarchy among Muslims generally, but I doubt that was at sky high levels to begin with.

p.s. It goes without saying but I won't shed any tears should he die (extraordinarily unlikely to happen though).
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 22:46   #12
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Re: We should just send the entire family

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
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I thought you had resolved to ignore discussions relating to banal celebrity culture?
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 22:57   #13
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Re: We should just send the entire family

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I thought you had resolved to ignore discussions relating to banal celebrity culture?
I make an exception when it intersects the business of killing brown people.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 23:10   #14
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Seeing as injured british soilders have been abused in hospital i doubt anyone will cheer from the rooftops over this. I think theres a strong chance the iraqi resistance will make a great deal about this - and so they should.

Id laugh my bollocks off if the ginger **** dies.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 23:31   #15
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Most of the male members of the royal family have been involved in the armed forces at some point. At least they, unlike all the members of the government, know what many of the people who have family members in the armed forces are going through. I think it shows that he and the rest of the family have far more guts than the government, who created the mess in the first place.
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Unread 23 Feb 2007, 00:07   #16
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yeah its real brave joining one of the most powerful coalition forces in history against a rag-tag mob of dispossessed civilians. What a hero.

never underestimate rag tag mobs of civilians - the americans did in vietnam and look what happened ;P
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Unread 23 Feb 2007, 00:13   #17
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Re: We should just send the entire family

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yeah its real brave joining one of the most powerful coalition forces in history against a rag-tag mob of dispossessed civilians. What a hero.
And yet those rag-tag mobs of dispossessed civilians keep knocking off US and British troops.

I think more than likely they'd try to capture him alive as opposed to just downright killing him. Then at least they could have some fun with it on TV for a few days or weeks, before killing him live on air so that everyone can see it.
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Unread 23 Feb 2007, 12:20   #18
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Re: We should just send the entire family

[sarcasm] I'm pleased Harry got his request to serve in Iraq approved. Now he can put the lives of everyone in his unit at risk which sounds 100% fair. Should opposition forces find his locaton, his unit will get a battering as they try to get the scalp of a Royal. Not to mention the additional security his unit will need to undertake, wasting millions of taxpayers' money in background checks. Good thinking! [/sarcasm]
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 02:07   #19
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Re: We should just send the entire family

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
These random internet sources:

3410 coalition dead since the start of the war with a presence on the ground of roughly 170,000 so the chance of getting. The UK has lost maybe 30 soldiers a year out of some 7000 on the ground. http://icasualties.org/oif/

At least 56880 Iraqi civilians have died according to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ which is an extremely conservative estimate.
No one seems to be counting insurgent deaths per se.
If you were my child and your response to my telling you that US and UK soldiers dying was a bad thing was to say that lots of Iraqi people had died as well - as you just have done; you would definately be going to bed without pudding.
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 11:13   #20
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Re: We should just send the entire family

I hope Yahwe isn't implying that just because they're British or American they're so much better than Iraqi people, for the reasons T&F gave above
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 11:58   #21
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I've missed you Yahwe.

There are plenty of people to weep crocodile tears over British soldiers. Frankly I figure that if you are a British soldier you don't really have to be there and therefore if you get shot one can speculate you brought it on yourself. Especially when it was likely that you were actually shot by the US or fell out of a helicopter.*

If you are an Iraqi living in Iraq going about your business and the most powerful army in history shows up and flattens your town and kills you and everyone who has ever known you only for the press to report it on page 13 as "2 British soldiers wounded in successful operation" then someone should probably try and mention it from time to time.

*credit to Bill Bailey
I'm much more inherently against the idea that one death is worse or better than another.
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 15:56   #22
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Most of the male members of the royal family have been involved in the armed forces at some point. At least they, unlike all the members of the government, know what many of the people who have family members in the armed forces are going through. I think it shows that he and the rest of the family have far more guts than the government, who created the mess in the first place.
shouldnt you have a disclaimer bout this to exclude edward from the above ?
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 16:03   #23
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I'm much more inherently against the idea that one death is worse or better than another.
but 20 deaths are worse than 1 death.
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 16:07   #24
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Re: We should just send the entire family

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Originally Posted by Phang
but 20 deaths are worse than 1 death.
It depends who's dying.
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 16:21   #25
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
These random internet sources:

No one seems to be counting insurgent deaths per se.


They dont seem to value a human life so why should anyone value theirs
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 17:42   #26
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well I agree however we have one side a group of people who chose to be fighting in a war and a bunch of people who didn't. Thus my sympathies are with the majority of the Iraqi people who want the coalition forces to leave. A soldier knows what he was signing up for.
then you don't agree
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 17:46   #27
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well if a man kills himself he is still worth as much as anyone else, but I figure that's what he wanted. If a soldier signs up to fight in a war that he didn't HAVE to fight in and he died in that war I figure that in some way that's what he wanted.
this doesn't reflect well on your ability to empathise
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 18:17   #28
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well I empathise entirely. You're young, the world is a strange and complicated place, you want to do something you believe in, you want to be powerful and you've got lots of energy. The army offers you a way to fulfil all these urges, it makes life nice and easy: "No need to think, we'll tell you what's right and wrong, this is your regiment and you can shoot people and everyone will call you a hero."

However if people want to live in that sort of unreality and not take heed of the consequences of their actions, if they want to go into another country and shoot people then a part of them has to be aware that the price you pay for this is that you put your life in danger.

It doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't mean your mother will be any less upset when you get killed, but you didn't have to do that so you must have wanted to do that.
lord forbid that you might actually want tp protect people weaker than yourself ...
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 18:25   #29
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Support your troops!
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 19:04   #30
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Does the army do that?

Since when?
stop humouring him
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 20:51   #31
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Does the army do that?

Since when?
as 'cool' and as 'trendy' as being being anti-establishment is (cough :teenageangst: cough) I think you are going too far with your inability to accept that armies keep nation states safe and that some of those nation states protect their weak citizens.

It may well be that because you can no longer see the immediate fear of saxon raiders burning down your home or german zeplins bombing london that you can not quite grasp the concept. HOWEVER it seems to me in pretty poor taste, and a distinct lack of empathy, to push your argument to the point of "members of the armed forces deserve their deaths".

As i have said I see no difference in the tragedy involved in the deaths of civilians or deaths in the military. I am suggesting that all deaths are a tragedy and I think you run the risk of cheapening yourself if you persist in your callous view of dead soldiers.
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 21:32   #32
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Armies only 'protect' you from other armies. I'm much happier walking over to the weak citizens on the other side and sitting on the embankment as our protectors kill each other. Besides its incredibly patronising to say they're protecting the weak, what are we doing? supporting the troglodytes?

I'm having difficulty understanding your apparent pacifism and respect for people who kill.
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Unread 24 Feb 2007, 23:16   #33
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Look, while I am against killing and armed forces in general, I think it is unfair to lay any blame on the soldiers themselves. At the end of the day they are only following orders and doing their job (which just happens to entail killing people... strange world eh?). I think blame has to lie with those in command not the grunts who just say 'yes Sir!' and pull the trigger.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 00:06   #34
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Armies only 'protect' you from other armies. I'm much happier walking over to the weak citizens on the other side and sitting on the embankment as our protectors kill each other. Besides its incredibly patronising to say they're protecting the weak, what are we doing? supporting the troglodytes?

I'm having difficulty understanding your apparent pacifism and respect for people who kill.

You might want to try constructing some sort of argument and/or having a coherent point.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 00:28   #35
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Re: We should just send the entire family

I was about to say the same, your 'all death is tragic' pov sits oddly with your admiration of those who kill for a living.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 01:07   #36
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Armies only 'protect' you from other armies.
"I, (your soldier's name here), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the (your country here) against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of (your Commander-in-Chief here) and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the (your country's military judicial system here). So help me (your god here)."
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 03:02   #37
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Re: We should just send the entire family

So, do you think killing an insurgent who was going to strap a bomb to himself the next day and go down to a local populated area to kill of as many as he can is unjustified?

So he dies a day early, but you potentially saved 20-100 other people from dying.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 03:13   #38
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I was about to say the same, your 'all death is tragic' pov sits oddly with your admiration of those who kill for a living.
you are starting from some very odd assumptions.

I have no need to admire anyone who deals death to argue that death is tragic. I do not think that you can seriously argue that members of the armed forces 'kill for a living' without being incredibly trite. It is difficult to see how I am 'admiring' anybody.

However my point with you was that your own post made no sense:
"armies only protect you from other armies" - what on earth was the point of saying this? How do you imagine it has any relevance as a statement?
"I'm much happier walking over to the weak citizens on the other side and sitting on the embankment as our protectors kill each other" - Again is this not rather silly?
"Besides its incredibly patronising to say they're protecting the weak, what are we doing?" - a 'them and us' scenario? How can you even justify such a mentality?

You appear to be as detached from the realities of mortal life as an olympian god. (in which case why are your parties no where near as fun?)
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 04:50   #39
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
So, do you think killing an insurgent who was going to strap a bomb to himself the next day and go down to a local populated area to kill of as many as he can is unjustified?

So he dies a day early, but you potentially saved 20-100 other people from dying.
You do realise the insurgency and all affiliated deaths are entirely and unequivocally the fault of the US-led invasion right?
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 04:52   #40
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you are starting from some very odd assumptions.

I have no need to admire anyone who deals death to argue that death is tragic. I do not think that you can seriously argue that members of the armed forces 'kill for a living' without being incredibly trite. It is difficult to see how I am 'admiring' anybody.
You approve of the armed forces? you have respect for them? That said theres little point in us discussing this if you don't accept the core reason for the existence of the army is to kill. The fundamental job of a soldier is to learn to kill with weapons that are designed to kill. They earn their living by being good killers.

Quote:
However my point with you was that your own post made no sense:
"armies only protect you from other armies" - what on earth was the point of saying this? How do you imagine it has any relevance as a statement?


If it doesn't have any relevance maybe you should ignore it. The army isn't protecting me from dragons and aliens its protecting me from other armies, it (and you) consider me weak and at threat.


Quote:
"I'm much happier walking over to the weak citizens on the other side and sitting on the embankment as our protectors kill each other" - Again is this not rather silly?
Actually ever since WWI ive thought it anything but silly. Make no mistake if this island was invaded i wouldn't life a finger to fight back unless i personally thought the invasion wrong.

Quote:
"Besides its incredibly patronising to say they're protecting the weak, what are we doing?" - a 'them and us' scenario? How can you even justify such a mentality?
Quite easily, if i feel threatened i fight back myself. The army can do whatever it wants (i can't stop it as it has the national monopoly on extreme violence) but it can't really act surprised if i disagree with what its doing.

Quote:
You appear to be as detached from the realities of mortal life as an olympian god. (in which case why are your parties no where near as fun?)

My realities and the realities of mortal life at this very instance are that the army is fighting an illegal war in a distant land. And i'm firmly on the side of the people in the distant land.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 04:57   #41
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
You do realise the insurgency and all affiliated deaths are entirely and unequivocally the fault of the US-led invasion right?
I've been hearing about insurgents and suicide bombers in that region long before the US-led invasion. Sure they're more frequent now that is a result, but to say it's entirely the fault of the US-led invasion is not fact, merely your opinion, or whoever you copied that quote from.

Edit: What does that have to do with my question...my question was do you think it's justifiable to kill an insurgent who was going to be a suicide bomber.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 05:33   #42
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
You approve of the armed forces? you have respect for them? That said theres little point in us discussing this
so be it.

(nutter)

edit: am i seriously supposed to reply to what milo has posted? or am i supposed to educate him? frankly my choice would be to hug him and to ask him questions until he realised the nature of light, dark and shadow
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 06:17   #43
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Re: We should just send the entire family

alright alright so i feel a bit guilty.

maybe i ought to spend some time on milo. but let us reserve our frowns for a moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
You approve of the armed forces? you have respect for them? That said theres little point in us discussing this if you don't accept the core reason for the existence of the army is to kill. The fundamental job of a soldier is to learn to kill with weapons that are designed to kill. They earn their living by being good killers.

If it doesn't have any relevance maybe you should ignore it. The army isn't protecting me from dragons and aliens its protecting me from other armies, it (and you) consider me weak and at threat.

Actually ever since WWI ive thought it anything but silly. Make no mistake if this island was invaded i wouldn't life a finger to fight back unless i personally thought the invasion wrong.

Quite easily, if i feel threatened i fight back myself. The army can do whatever it wants (i can't stop it as it has the national monopoly on extreme violence) but it can't really act surprised if i disagree with what its doing.

My realities and the realities of mortal life at this very instance are that the army is fighting an illegal war in a distant land. And i'm firmly on the side of the people in the distant land.
of course i do not 'approve' of the armed forces. i doubt that anyone can 'approve' of the necessity. I am so very sorry but without them we would just steal from each other and escalate in - in amo amas amat ...

have respect for them? well i have and hold respect for every human so that bit at least is simple.

I do not accept the proposition that the sole reason for an army to exist is to kill. hence words such as 'job' and 'designed' seem rather crude and ghastly to me.

'earn their livings by killing' now i do genuinely think that is a silly thing to say

'the army isn't protecting me' and the other stuff milo has posted. seems a bit silly to me. as if one can 'opt out'.

it does seem to me that milo is acting as a spoilt child. spoilt by peace. devoid of the reality of human life. 10,000 years of war and death and injustice and he believes that his life of indulgent peace allows him to sneer at others.

well i fail to see how that can be right.

"if i feel threatened i fight back myself"

do i really need to say how awful such a statement is????
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 06:26   #44
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Re: We should just send the entire family

I have nothing but respect for the American (and British) armed forces. Killing is in no way their 'job', they are merely trained to defend themselves.

Anyone who talks down armed forces should really shut there mouth unless they've been in said armed forces and have the right to bitch about it. I have never done so, and therefore I would not dream to put them down.

This is regardless of whether or not I agree with them being where they're at, they all knew when they singed up there was the probability of going to war, and since there's no current draft in the US, they did all volunteer. Many of them after the war started. They didn't join to go out and kill people, or because they wanted the chance, they did it because they felt it there duty to do so, and if you call that blind patriotism, then so be it, but it was there choice.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 06:33   #45
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The army isn't protecting me from dragons and aliens its protecting me from other armies
Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
"I, (your soldier's name here), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the (your country here) against all enemies, foreign and domestic
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 06:53   #46
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
My realities and the realities of mortal life at this very instance are that the army is fighting an illegal war in a distant land. And i'm firmly on the side of the people in the distant land.
Oh and what do you suggest the (your) Army do?

Also if you're absolutely passionate and firmly siding with the "people in the distant land", maybe you should just get the f*ck out of your country and swim to that "distant land". I would love to hear what tune you'd be singing then.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 06:56   #47
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Re: We should just send the entire family

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Originally Posted by demiGOD
Oh and what do you suggest the (your) Army do?

Also if you're absolutely passionate and firmly siding with the "people in the distant land", maybe you should just get the f*ck out of your country and swim to that "distant land". I would love to hear what tune you'd be singing then.

you are a twat.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 15:24   #48
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I've been hearing about insurgents and suicide bombers in that region long before the US-led invasion. Sure they're more frequent now that is a result, but to say it's entirely the fault of the US-led invasion is not fact, merely your opinion, or whoever you copied that quote from.

Edit: What does that have to do with my question...my question was do you think it's justifiable to kill an insurgent who was going to be a suicide bomber.
my point was that 90% would be a conservative estimate for the number of Iraqi civilians who have died since the end of the first gulf war who would not have died were it not for the US, whether through the sanctions or through pretty much bombing the living shit out of anything that moved for the last four years. Saying that the US are fighting bad guys now doesn't in any way make less relevant the fact that they gave those bad guys a cause and a foothold in the first place.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 18:10   #49
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You say that I cannot empathise when you mock the deaths of thousands of innocents.
no i didn't.

stop being an utter spastic.
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Unread 25 Feb 2007, 18:30   #50
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Re: We should just send the entire family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
no i didn't.

stop being an utter spastic.
one day, one distant and glorious ****ing day, you'll produce an argument. I'm sure it will be as spectacularly vacuous as your proud history of ad hominems and misrepresentations, but it will be a milestone.
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