Bowling for Columbine

[ChubbyChecker]

I thought this documentary was pretty good. It rambled a bit in places and the guy pretty blatantly manipulated facts to prove whatever point he was trying to make.

It did raise the point though that gun ownership is extremely high in Canada, it is almost as easy or maybe even easier to get a gun than in the US. Yet the death rate by shootings is much lower than in the US.

I always thought that the reason so many Americans shoot each other is because there's so many guns out there. Remove the guns and no more shootings, simple. But obviously this isn't the whole story.

So can anybody tell me why so many Americans shoot each other?

[Xillah]

Bad diet, interbreeding and to much tv?

[the_dastardley_chihuahua]

too much rap and rock music, too much violence in video games and too many violent films.

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally posted by Xillah
Bad diet, interbreeding and to much tv?

What's diet got to do with it? Anyway, I can't imagine that British people have a much better diet and we have one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world.
As for interbreeding, well I'm not too sure about that either, unless there's some "gun crime gene" that's being spread about

Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
too much rap and rock music, too much violence in video games and too many violent films.

Canadians listen to the same music, play the same video games and watch the same movies as Americans, yet they don't feel the need to shoot each other. Europeans too for that matter.

[Proteus]

It's not just availabilty of guns, it's attitute towards them.

Some Americans take the attitude, for instance, that shooting an unarmed burglar is "defending your property".

Also, there's the drug problem - I think a lot of the gun crime in the US is drug related. (No I don't have any proof, and I don't feel like Googling )

[Vaio]

Originally posted by Proteus
It's not just availabilty of guns, it's attitute towards them.

Some Americans take the attitude, for instance, that shooting an unarmed burglar is "defending your property".

It's more crime prevention

Vaio

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally posted by Proteus
It's not just availabilty of guns, it's attitute towards them.

Some Americans take the attitude, for instance, that shooting an unarmed burglar is "defending your property".

Ah, now we're getting somewhere

But why do Americans have this attitude? That point was actually made in the film (the cartoon bit), but I can't remember if a reason was given.

Originally posted by Proteus
Also, there's the drug problem - I think a lot of the gun crime in the US is drug related. (No I don't have any proof, and I don't feel like Googling )

I'm not sure about this. I do know though that a significant amount of killings in the UK are alcohol related ie about 50% of the time people are drunk when they kill / are killed.
I don't think that the drug problem in the US is any worse than in the UK though. More people take drugs in the UK than anywhere else in Europe.

[Ste]

You watched the damn film - it tells you!

The reason is the life of fear that American's lead, they are scared of someone coming into there house and murdering them, so they buy loads of guns.
They are scared of being attacked in the street, so they carry guns.
The news they have is so sensational that it makes them scared to leave their house!
Blame the media, blame the NRA and blame the shops that sell them without decent background checks.

Well, thats what the film said anyway.
I urge everyone to watch it.

[Xillah]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
What's diet got to do with it? Anyway, I can't imagine that British people have a much better diet and we have one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world.
As for interbreeding, well I'm not too sure about that either, unless there's some "gun crime gene" that's being spread about

British ppl cant buy guns in ASDA....

There is a gun crime gene, you will see oh yes you will...

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally posted by Ste
You watched the damn film - it tells you!

The reason is the life of fear that American's lead, they are scared of someone coming into there house and murdering them, so they buy loads of guns.
They are scared of being attacked in the street, so they carry guns.
The news they have is so sensational that it makes them scared to leave their house!
Blame the media, blame the NRA and blame the shops that sell them without decent background checks.

Well, thats what the film said anyway.
I urge everyone to watch it.

I wasn't totally convinced by his sensationalist media theory, I don't think I buy that.

He was also implying that poverty leads to violence. There is less poverty in Canada therefore less violence. Also when he was going on about that woman who has to travel 1 and a half hours to get to work, therefore not being there for her kid(s).

Anyway, I was asking for your opinion, not Michael Moore's

[Proteus]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
Ah, now we're getting somewhere

But why do Americans have this attitude? That point was actually made in the film (the cartoon bit), but I can't remember if a reason was given.

Lack of respect for the rights of others while promoting your own rights (to have a gun for instance) to astronomical proportions?

Some Americans don't seem to have worked out that everyone else have rights too, and not just them.

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
I'm not sure about this. I do know though that a significant amount of killings in the UK are alcohol related ie about 50% of the time people are drunk when they kill / are killed.
I don't think that the drug problem in the US is any worse than in the UK though. More people take drugs in the UK than anywhere else in Europe.

By drugs related I mean users killing dealers, dealers killing users, dealers killing dealers, etc, not people on drugs killing random people (although I am sure it must happen).

The combination of drugs availability and gun availability is obviously a bad one. We have the drugs, and no guns. I assume Canada has the guns and no drugs... (well not many anyway)

[deerbarn]

Do wal*mart really sell guns? Ace! I can get 10% off a gun with my colleague card. Wowzers

[Ste]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
I wasn't totally convinced by his sensationalist media theory, I don't think I buy that.

He was also implying that poverty leads to violence. There is less poverty in Canada therefore less violence. Also when he was going on about that woman who has to travel 1 and a half hours to get to work, therefore not being there for her kid(s).

Anyway, I was asking for your opinion, not Michael Moore's

Most murder's in America happen in the home with the houseowner's gun (usually a family member killing another) - FACT
Most American police are killed with their, or their partner's, gun - FACT

The shootings we have in Britain are practically all gang related. IIRC we have about 70 a year in a population of 60m.
In America there are 11500 shootings a year in a population of 300m.

The fear culture in America is the one thing that makes it stand out over any other country, people are afraid of their neighbours, afraid of their family and afraid of random people in the street.

According to the NRA "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" So I think we should do Eddie Izzards suggestion - lock Mr Heston (head of the NRA) in his house and send in a monkey with a gun, would make a terrific reality TV program!

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally posted by Proteus
By drugs related I mean users killing dealers, dealers killing users, dealers killing dealers, etc, not people on drugs killing random people (although I am sure it must happen).

Yeah, I know what you meant. What I was trying to say was that in the UK most killings are not gang related, or related to any specific illegal activity, they're just two random people getting pissed off at each other and one ending up dead. I'm assuming that the US is the same.

Originally posted by Proteus
The combination of drugs availability and gun availability is obviously a bad one. We have the drugs, and no guns. I assume Canada has the guns and no drugs... (well not many anyway)

I've thought of that too. British "society" is very similar to American "society" in many respects. There are almost as many dysfunctional families, obesity levels are almost the same and drug taking levels are pretty similar. So possibly if gun control was a lot freer in the UK we would see a lot more murders, maybe even as much as the US has.

This implies though that American people on the whole are just not responsible enough to carry guns. Not something that the NRA would like to hear

[Ste]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
Ah, now we're getting somewhere

But why do Americans have this attitude? That point was actually made in the film (the cartoon bit), but I can't remember if a reason was given.

Because they are afraid of everything.

[Ste]

Originally posted by Proteus
The combination of drugs availability and gun availability is obviously a bad one. We have the drugs, and no guns. I assume Canada has the guns and no drugs... (well not many anyway)

I think they have a similar drug problem. A smaller population though.

[Monkehpimp]

Several people in the movie said that America is more multi-cultural than the rest of the world, and this is why there are so many gun deaths....

[Proteus]

Just to get some hard facts into the discussion:

Gun Deaths per 100,000 population

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -

Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -

England, Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)

Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)

Therefore, an American is 7.5 times more likely to be murdered with a gun than a Canadian, and 34 times more likely than an English person.

Also, an American is 2.8 times more likely to be killed unintentionally by a gun than a Canadian, and 42 times more likely than an English person.

[Woof]

From a slightly different view point, during interviews with american and British soldiers during Gulf War 2, you could really see the american gun-ho attitude of their troops.

americans love being able to blow things up and destroy stuff, that's why they go ape Sh|te over those monster trucks.
It's a proven fact no other nation on earth goes ape over monster trucks, only americans.

Monster trucks, ffs...

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally posted by Proteus
Just to get some hard facts into the discussion:



Therefore, an American is 7.5 times more likely to be murdered with a gun than a Canadian, and 34 times more likely than an English person.

Also, an American is 2.8 times more likely to be killed unintentionally by a gun than a Canadian, and 42 times more likely than an English person.

Do you have any figures for murders, gun related or not?

[Proteus]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
Do you have any figures for murders, gun related or not?

The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 15,517 murders in 2000 were committed with firearms.

[ChubbyChecker]

Ah ok, that changes things then.

In the UK only 10% of murders are commited with firearms. Which means that 600 people are murdered every year. That is 1 in every 100,000.
If 15,517 are killed in the US out of a population of 280million that is 5.5 in every 100,000.

Still a discrepancy but it makes up some of the difference.

[Vanilla]

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally posted by Vanilla
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Yeah, I've seen that already. I read it all in the vain hope that I would find something useful. Boy, was that ever a waste of time! The guy that wrote that critique of Bowling for Columbine is much more biased than Michael Moore was in his documentary.

[W]

Originally posted by Woof
gun-ho

[Nodrog]

http://www.geocities.com/nodrogfs/i_didnt_make_this.jpg

[Vermillion]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker

It did raise the point though that gun ownership is extremely high in Canada, it is almost as easy or maybe even easier to get a gun than in the US. Yet the death rate by shootings is much lower than in the US.

Firstly, it is not at all easier to get a Gun in Canada, we have laws that regulate Gun ownership, and we also have Gun registration.

What the documentary oddly completely failed to mention, is that while there are a LOT of guns in the hands of private citizens in canada, the variety of guns is VERY different from in the US.

-Firearms in Canadian private ownership are almost all longarms: rifles and shotguns.
-Private ownership of a handgun in Canada is incredibly restricted, and private ownership of any short-barrel, or ant pistol firing .22 or.32 ammunition is illegal..
-Private ownership of longarms with more than 11 bullets in a clip is illegal.
-Private ownership of any weapon capable of being fully-automatic weapon in Canada is illegal, this includes automatic rifles altered to fire only semi-automatic.
-Firing any weapon within city limits is illegal (This is an Ontario ordinance, I dont know about other provinces)
-Any rifle of shotgun with an overall length of less than 660 mm or a barrel length less than 457 mm is illegal in Canada.
-Silencers are illegal in Canada.
-Toys that look exactly like guns are illegal in Canada
-While we are at it, Switchblades and butterfly knives are illegal in Canada.

Thats why the Canadain gun-death ratio is vastly smaller than in the US.

Right now, under pressure from the NRA, it looks like the US congress is NOT going to uphold the US ban on automatic/assault weapons. In Canada, even seeing a weapon like that would bring ERT (our version of SWAT) down on you like a hammer.

None of this was discussed in the film.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Nodrog
http://www.geocities.com/nodrogfs/i_didnt_make_this.jpg

People who have crap diets choose (well, sort of) to kill themselves.

"Most" people murdered by firearms don't choose it.

Originally posted by Vermillion
Thats why the Canadain gun-death ratio is vastly smaller than in the US.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? Surely that's not the only reason. I'd imagine that lower levels of inequality, higher levels of civic trust might contribute as well, even if only indirectly.

Most murders, I would presume, are carried out by illegally held firearms.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
People who have crap diets choose (well, sort of) to kill themselves.

No they dont, they are manipulated by an oppressive capitalist society into a state where obesity is an unavoidable consequence of the manifest materialistic consumerism which they are forced to embrace, promoted primarilly through the rampant "fast food' lifestyle inflicted upon them by the money hungry robber barons pulling the strings of corporate society, blissfully oblivious to the tragic burger-craving plight of the overweight working man.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Nodrog
No they dont, they are manipulated by an oppressive capitalist society

That's why I said "sort of".

[Vanilla]

It seems america is going the other way.

You need specific licenses to have an 'assault' weapon. There are certain things that make a weapon an assault weapon

1.) Flash Supressor
2.) Long barrel
3.) Sight
4.) Greater than 5 magazine capacity.

and a few others. Basically if your gun meets any two of those requirements then it's classed as an assault weapon.

however this whole assault weapon malarky is having it's ban lifted. As it it won't matter anymore.

type

thing

forgot the specifics.

[Perle]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
I thought this documentary was pretty good. It rambled a bit in places and the guy pretty blatantly manipulated facts to prove whatever point he was trying to make.

It did raise the point though that gun ownership is extremely high in Canada, it is almost as easy or maybe even easier to get a gun than in the US. Yet the death rate by shootings is much lower than in the US.

I always thought that the reason so many Americans shoot each other is because there's so many guns out there. Remove the guns and no more shootings, simple. But obviously this isn't the whole story.

So can anybody tell me why so many Americans shoot each other?

It is plain and simple. you can sum it up in one single word: EGOISM.

We live in a society that worships egoism.
We live in a society that kicks the weak, when they are down and bows for the rich and mighty.

That is why so many of us kill each other. because we believe that our interest are more important than the lives of others. Because we believe that our property and our money and our security is more important than anything else.

And that is what makes our country the greatest country in the world. Because we live by the principle of the survival of the fittest.

It does not matter that we have a war every couple of years to secure our national interest. It does not matter that we have about 12k gun related homicides and it does not matter that we have 30 to 40 million people without healthcare .

And you know why???

Because that`s the price of GREATNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Perle
Because that`s the price of GREATNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is the Corporate State of America paying the price of greatness? From the outside you look anything but great.

[Perle]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Why is the Corporate State of America paying the price of greatness? From the outside you look anything but great.

???

I really did not understand your question

[cnaw]

Originally posted by Vanilla


however this whole assault weapon malarky is having it's ban lifted. As it it won't matter anymore.

unless u live in kalifornia... ;-)

[Judge]

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker

So can anybody tell me why so many Americans shoot each other?

Yes, the typical American has a fascination with blood splatter patterns.

It turns them on, gives them a hard on or a wetty puss puss (if they are female).

[Judge]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks

Most murders, I would presume, are carried out by illegally held firearms.

Most murders are carried out by murderers.