PA giving "official" tools private dumps.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by wakey
manufactuering an advantage such as this is just a case of unfair competition. No other set of PA tools will ever be able to compete

The extra information given to the PA tools gives them only a cosmetic advantage over any other tools. The tools already in existence will function in exactly the same way as they always have. I've never really heard anyone complaining that Sandman's/Pilkara didn't show galaxy banners or minister positions.

People don't use tool sites to check Minister positions, they don't need to look at galaxy banners at tool sites, as they already have the galaxy screen for that. Or are you suggesting that PA should only be used for launching ships, and the tools for playing the rest of the game?

Becuase of this we now have the excellent tools we have now.

So if we have excellent 3rd-party tools, why won't they be excellent next round anymore? They will still do exactly the same as in previous rounds, and if the coders have been creative, probably even more.

Galaxy banners and Minister positions are just the cherry on top of your ice-cream. A nice addition, but if you can get better ice-cream somewhere else, you don't care about the cherry.

[wakey]

They may be what you consider 'cosmetic' but on the whole people are superficial and such cosmetic changes will attract these people to use the official tool rather than any third party ones. It also opens up the possability for some additional 'fun' rankings that can be used which arent possible on the default dump. And whats to stop them in future adding even more info onto the extended dump to give the official tools and even greater advantage.

And anyway the point isnt if the extended dumps are any real use but more a matter whats fair. The 3rd party tool creators no matter how creative they are will never be able to beat the official tools simply due to the extra cosmetic advantages that Mit has. After all whenever any of these tools comes up with something unique the others 'steal' the idea for theres and Mit wont be any differnt so this extra info will always have his site a cut above the rest. And then becuase the creators of teh sites realise that they will eiter shut their site down or stop working on it simply because it will never be able to compete fully wit hthe official one.

If one person get access to the extended dumps them everyone should simply for the good of the community

[Leshy]

Originally posted by wakey
They may be what you consider 'cosmetic' but on the whole people are superficial and such cosmetic changes will attract these people to use the official tool rather than any third party ones.

If people are so superficial as to choose on cosmetics only, they'll use Mit's tools because they are linked on the portal anyway. Any serious player/alliance, as in those that frequently use the tools, will choose on whatever tools work best.

It also opens up the possability for some additional 'fun' rankings that can be used which arent possible on the default dump.

So people will parse their scans on Pilkara and check their growth rate there, then go to the official tools to see how they are doing in the Top 100 of MoC's. Woo-hoo.

And whats to stop them in future adding even more info onto the extended dump to give the official tools and even greater advantage.

The fact that PA will completely change after this round, possibly making all tools obsolete?

And anyway the point isnt if the extended dumps are any real use but more a matter whats fair.

It's unfair that a business uses it's inhouse data to produce their programs, whereas third-party people have to do it with less? Last time I checked, Planetarion wasn't open-source.

After all whenever any of these tools comes up with something unique the others 'steal' the idea for theres and Mit wont be any differnt so this extra info will always have his site a cut above the rest.

If that's the truth, then all the tools out there should be exactly the same. But shock horror, they aren't. Sandman's was generally seen as the best one, Pilkara undoubtedly has a much wider audience than VirusTools.

because it will never be able to compete fully wit hthe official one.

People realise that their home-made levels for Unreal Tournament, Neverwinter Nights or Thief 2 will most likely not be able to compete fully with the official levels by the producers of the game, for example due to lack of voice acting in home-made levels, or the possibility to create in-game movies, or the lack of expertise of the official level designers. Doesn't stop them from creating levels anyway.

If one person get access to the extended dumps them everyone should simply for the good of the community

Yes, because the community desperately needs galaxy banners and minister positions on their tools!

[GReaper]

I'm not going to read all of the 7 pages of this crap, however...

Most unofficial sites/bots have always been far more popular than any official one. Whatever happened to all those wonderful little search utilities on the portals of the older rounds? Nobody ever touched them did they?

There are other search sites/bots which have been far superior to what you've had. Is the only way of trying to get people to use an official search site by locking out others from extra information which could be quite useful? Instead of being creative you are resorting to blocking out everyone else because they're not official.

Give others access to the information which they've been asked for SINCE THE DAMN DUMPS BEGAN, instead of denying others access to it. Many times have other people asked for the extra data, and many times have these people been ignored.

To summarise this post:

Your community wants to create tools which help other players in the community, and you want to make it awkward for them?

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Mit
The loss of my PA Team posisition? and other things i do in the community.

No bad thing to lose really, unless power and status mean something to you. It is actually quite relaxing really

[Leshy]

Originally posted by GReaper
Your community wants to create tools which help other players in the community, and you want to make it awkward for them?

Nothing has changed. It's still as easy (or as hard) for anyone to create a bunch of PA Tools as it always has been.

[Bashar]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
So? Where does it say this is a democracy? What sort of business decision is based on those principles?

Usually business decisions have 2 priorities:

1. To satisfy the shareholders.
2. To satisfy the customers.

Anthing else and businesses tend to collapse, but they aren't democracies - kinda dependednt dictatorships, dependent on customer satisfaction.

[Sakera]

First of all, minty > leshy.

Originally posted by Leshy
bla bla bla

Well the only thing you try to say is that the extra dump information is just cosmetic and are completely useless. I suggest you read up on this thread, it have been explained very well how and why the extra dump info is important.

[Devo]

Personally I don't mind if they give us extra info in a PA dump, as long as they continue to give us the basics (Co-ords, names, score and roids). As an amture programmer I enjoy messing about with the PA dumps and creating scripts to generate facts etc. If the PA dumps were lost forever, it would be a major blow to the whole community.

And yes, I think it is wrong to critise Mit for his work. He has done a great job and clearly the official PA tools should have more features than others. It is what makes them official. Why should a single alliance have an advantage because they have better coders? (that is if they don't make their tools public. There is no reason why they should do so!)

[Heartless]

Originally posted by Sakera
First of all, minty > leshy.



Well the only thing you try to say is that the extra dump information is just cosmetic and are completely useless. I suggest you read up on this thread, it have been explained very well how and why the extra dump info is important.

Did I miss something?
It is just cosmetic and a few more (senseless!?) rankings.

Whatever, you can of course aim for the "PA is only needed to order and launch" thing someone mentioned in this or the other thread before and then it is valuable ...

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Sakera
First of all, minty > leshy.

That's it, I'm banning your account

I suggest you read up on this thread, it have been explained very well how and why the extra dump info is important.

I have read this entire thread.

Galaxy banners = the dump would have to list the URL, alliances could use this to cross-check where banners are hosted to see if galaxies are possibly allied.

GC/Ministers = Galaxies which frequently change GC/Ministers or which don't have any would be able to be spotted as n00bie galaxies.

First of all, the URL to each galaxy banner is publically availabe, through the galaxy screen. If alliances are going to use tools to determine enemy galaxies by banner URL, maybe it's better that the public dump doesn't list the URL's to the galaxy banners, as it would mean that alliances would start (mis)using the public tools for their own good.

And so far, tools have managed perfectly fine without indicating GC/Minister positions, so I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to perform equally well this round.

The advantages that the official tools will have over public tools in the form of galaxy banner and GC/Minister positions are very minor, do not cause unfair competition and frankly are the sort of advantages you'd expect official tools to have.

[SpazMonster]

Originally posted by Bashar
Usually business decisions have 2 priorities:

1. To satisfy the shareholders.
2. To satisfy the customers.

Anthing else and businesses tend to collapse, but they aren't democracies - kinda dependednt dictatorships, dependent on customer satisfaction.

This would fall under number 1 - generate more revanue to satisfy shareholders and help to financially secure the future.

[Ulysses]

Just to throw a spanner in the works......

I suggest that only the "official tools" site gets a full and complete dump from the DB.

Everyone else who wants it should pay for it, perhaps £500 per round.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Sakera
Secondly by not giving out this dump we will be forced to draw this data directly out of the "offical" tools witch isnt only possible, but also will create a quite big extra load on their servers.

I think that this is really the key point; afaik the dumps were started BECAUSE people created bots to grab the info, presumably to shift that bandwidth strain to another server, and clearly to cut down the amount of bandwidth that needs to be served.

Granting official tools special privaledges will only result in exactly the same bandwidth problems, as Sakera has suggested. If people aren't given the dumps, then it's easy enough to take the info, the long way if neccessary.

I think Leshy addresses the issues of fairness quite adequately, but skipped the reality that as soon as this information is available on Mit's site - it's available to everyone with any tiny amount of experience with sockets (christ, even I could parse it out), just at pointless extra bandwidth cost to Jolt.

Just in case you missed it: I really don't care what's fair and what's not, I care about pragmatism, perhaps Jolt/remnants of FSAS should, too.

An aside: what were those tools called... Spear-something - you gave your coords, got a few probable targets suggested, and you're away. I appreciate that Sandmans et al were better for 'pro' use, but those tools were ace for newbies - and me at 5 minutes before the tick.

[GReaper]

Originally posted by Leshy
Nothing has changed. It's still as easy (or as hard) for anyone to create a bunch of PA Tools as it always has been.

Thats the exact problem, nothing has changed, has it? Any requests for anything new go ignored.

Make it easy for other people to use all of the data. Just take a look at Dark Age of Camelot's XML files. Do you see them blocking information just because it may give a few extra hits to their site? Many sites have been created (and many others) have been created because they have been able to use most of the important data available to them.

Planetarion is a game, concentrate on the game itself instead of trying to organise the community to only think how you want it to.

[dsd]

Originally posted by Sakera
Virus has also it's set of tools, but sadly I dont remember the URL.

www.virushq.net/tools

hopefully i will find some time to update the page, i have a few things planned


Zero

[Sakera]

SO, any answer from PA HQ regarding this? No, they havent said a single word!

[17:04] <Spinner> Uansett må jeg deale med dette etter signup
[17:04] <Spinner> so..until later

for those understanding, it means they would look at it after signup.

Has signup started yet?

hmm ....

[Sir Mordred]

Originally posted by dsd
www.virushq.net/tools

hopefully i will find some time to update the page, i have a few things planned


Zero

[b]www.virushq.ORG/tools yet plz

[K0loth]

Originally posted by Sakera
SO, any answer from PA HQ regarding this? No, they havent said a single word!

[17:04] <Spinner> Uansett må jeg deale med dette etter signup
[17:04] <Spinner> so..until later

for those understanding, it means they would look at it after signup.

Has signup started yet?

hmm ....

They were probabaly hoping it would be all forgotten by then.

[kaos]

Originally posted by K0loth
They were probabaly hoping it would be all forgotten by then.

this is nothing new ... if i remember back there are several things we should have gotten but which were just hold so long that _everybody_ forgot them :/

[K0loth]

Originally posted by kaos
this is nothing new

Any updates or results on this subject lately?
Spinner been emailed? Spinner forgot?

[Eol]

Originally posted by Bashar
Congratulations, you just hit the jackpot. Now, re-read the thread and then make a post saying what the point of the thread is

Actually, I'll be kind:

The point of the thread is PEOPLE CAN'T MAKE THEIR OWN TOOL TO REPLACE THE OFFICIAL ONE WITHOUT THE SAME DB DUMP.

If you are going to argue against what is being said on the thread, at least make sure your argument doesn't prove the point behind the thread

I completely agree. I honestly have problems understanding why only some people should have access to an extended DB dump.

[Ad0]

Well the actual answer is one of pure control... by giving one specific person or group access to a superset of the DB information the PA crew ensure that they essentially control the 'main' tool. Having said this innovation of people will put this idea in the trash where it belongs.

Why not give everyone access to the same DB and let someone create a impressive 'ala sandman' pa tool.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Ad0
Well the actual answer is one of pure control... by giving one specific person or group access to a superset of the DB information the PA crew ensure that they essentially control the 'main' tool. Having said this innovation of people will put this idea in the trash where it belongs.

Why not give everyone access to the same DB and let someone create a impressive 'ala sandman' pa tool.

<CH> Elftor (not in channel) asked: Hi, I have been browsing different tools for Planetarion recently, but have noticed a bit of downtime with the official kit. Is this downtime going to continue? as I do not trust other sites, with some ties with alliances as I have heard rumours that info
<Spinner> Ah, good one
<Spinner> You see, there are some incredibly childish players out there, who are so annoyed that they dont get access to the same info as the official site does, so they DOS-attack the officiel site
<Mit> Spinner : just to update all, i have sorted something so it will never be down more than 1hr
<Spinner> The sad part was of course that I had made my mind up to give them all the info, but after this, I am determined not to give them anything just yet.
<Spinner> We will not be blackmailed
<Spinner> silly buggers
<Spinner> nqp


THAT is why other tools will not be getting the extra dumps for a while.

[Ad0]

*and the prize for stupid reason pulled out of a hat goes to spinner*

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Ad0
*and the prize for stupid reason pulled out of a hat goes to spinner*

You mean the prize for stupidity goes to the script kiddie(s) responsible. When you want someone to do something for you screwing them over is a real bad way to go about getting it.

[Starbucks]

if all else fails, steal the data off mit's site

[Ad0]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
You mean the prize for stupidity goes to the script kiddie(s) responsible. When you want someone to do something for you screwing them over is a real bad way to go about getting it.

It goes without saying that i think the script kiddie should be burned at the stake. But my contempt for spinner to use this as a excuse to deny the WHOLE community access to the data because of the acts of a single person is no less intense.

[ParraCida]

plus the fact that spinner has absolutely 'no idea' why they targetted that site makes it even more ridiculous. He is 'assuming' they attacked that site because of those reasons, personally I believe script kiddos target stuff at random at best

But who am I to bring some sense of reason in this discussion, please go on gayle, people like you make me shine.

[Stress]

Originally posted by Mit
<CH> Elftor (not in channel) asked: Hi, I have been browsing different tools for Planetarion recently, but have noticed a bit of downtime with the official kit. Is this downtime going to continue? as I do not trust other sites, with some ties with alliances as I have heard rumours that info
<Spinner> Ah, good one
<Spinner> You see, there are some incredibly childish players out there, who are so annoyed that they dont get access to the same info as the official site does, so they DOS-attack the officiel site
<Mit> Spinner : just to update all, i have sorted something so it will never be down more than 1hr
<Spinner> The sad part was of course that I had made my mind up to give them all the info, but after this, I am determined not to give them anything just yet.
<Spinner> We will not be blackmailed
<Spinner> silly buggers
<Spinner> nqp


THAT is why other tools will not be getting the extra dumps for a while.

heh even though he appologised for 'pointing the finger' later. isnt it just a little strage....
Spinner u seriously need to work on customer relations.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Mit

THAT is why other tools will not be getting the extra dumps for a while.

[20:37:16] <@Spinner> It seems I have been a little "too general" in the statement about the attacks on the official tools
[20:37:54] <@Spinner> I did not say that we are being attacked by either Sakera or any member of the PIlkara site
[20:37:56] <@Spinner> or tools
[20:38:05] <@Spinner> So there is no need to shout at them
[20:38:27] <@Spinner> The "someone" was directed more at a universial "someone", sorry about that
[20:38:38] * @Prince fluffles Sakera
[20:38:41] <@Spinner> nqp

[kaos]

Originally posted by Mit
<CH> Elftor (not in channel) asked: Hi, I have been browsing different tools for Planetarion recently, but have noticed a bit of downtime with the official kit. Is this downtime going to continue? as I do not trust other sites, with some ties with alliances as I have heard rumours that info
<Spinner> Ah, good one
<Spinner> You see, there are some incredibly childish players out there, who are so annoyed that they dont get access to the same info as the official site does, so they DOS-attack the officiel site
<Mit> Spinner : just to update all, i have sorted something so it will never be down more than 1hr
<Spinner> The sad part was of course that I had made my mind up to give them all the info, but after this, I am determined not to give them anything just yet.
<Spinner> We will not be blackmailed
<Spinner> silly buggers
<Spinner> nqp


THAT is why other tools will not be getting the extra dumps for a while.

I thought your tools were on a shared hosting ? So where do YOU know from that this ddos or whatever was directed at you tools and not something else (or even something random, which sometimes happens too, if stupid ppl see a windows server).

And if we go on with this 'logic': Lets say someone ddosses PA itself: spinner will shut it down to all players because someone is a bad guy ? come on, this reason is just silly ...

[Sakera]

Now, it is true spinner suspects Ely directly for having attacked patools, as stated in E-mail to [Racer]®.

His proof:

logs

Now, spinner havent seen (or hadn't seen at the time of CH) these logs, but was only told what they was about from the person having the logs (or faking the logs, or just didnt bother to fake em).

Even thought this, Spinner went public in Creators hour acusing Pilkara. Yes, he explained a little better later but still it's not very good claiming that is the reason no priv dumps that Pilkara/Ely Ddos'ed the toolkit.


!!

[Ad0]

Originally posted by Sakera
Now, it is true spinner suspects Ely directly for having attacked patools, as stated in E-mail to [Racer]®.

His proof:

logs

Now, spinner havent seen (or hadn't seen at the time of CH) these logs, but was only told what they was about from the person having the logs (or faking the logs, or just didnt bother to fake em).

Even thought this, Spinner went public in Creators hour acusing Pilkara. Yes, he explained a little better later but still it's not very good claiming that is the reason no priv dumps that Pilkara/Ely Ddos'ed the toolkit.


!!

Sak we all know that DDOS's attacks dont actually 'come' from the hosts in the logs. If spinner is using logs as evidence that he clearly needs look at his methods.

Anyone DDOS'ing from their own machine is an idiot and in my experience they come from compromised hosts acting as drones.

To suggest that someone from ELY and someone that would be silly enough to be LINKED with ely is an absolute joke.

Spinner how about we digress from the pittyfull excuses and address the matter at hand... giving all the PA tool makers a level playing field.

[K0loth]

Originally posted by Sakera
Now, it is true spinner suspects Ely directly for having attacked patools, as stated in E-mail to [Racer]®.

Thats ridiculous. [Racer] would never allow his servers to be used to perform attacks.

Seems to me the creators prefer to discredit the opposition rather than address the issue in hand.

[Stress]

Originally posted by K0loth
Thats ridiculous. [Racer] would never allow his servers to be used to perform attacks.

Seems to me the creators prefer to discredit the opposition rather than address the issue in hand.

funny thing, we arent the opposition, we are the livelyhood of witch he has made his imcome for the last 2 or so years.

Spinner Ofishially You are a Twat.
Stress