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View Poll Results: What do you think about Gun Control?
. 6 66.67%
. 3 33.33%
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 15:49   #51
the_dastardley_chihuahua
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
It's not about life being more than material possesions. It's about them violating your rights. In a mugging situation there is a very real threat of violence (or occurence of violence). We're not talking about shop-lifting here, or (heh) music piracy. Someone is threatening you, they might beat you up, assault your partner, etc. I don't give a **** about money (within reason), but if it's in my capacity to resist someone whose mugging me, I will.

If I was an expert kung-fu fighter and I beat someone up who tried to mug me, I presume you would think this is acceptable. If I'm weedy but I have a .44 Magnum then surely I should still have the opportunity?
beating someone up is not the same as shooting them.
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 15:51   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Whereas the occurance of incidents involving the criminal and victim having exciting high-octane shootouts in the living room is breathtakingly high
I don't believe I said there were or would be a 'high' number of such incidents, just that the scenarios you provided that I'd 'neglected' to mention were so statistically insignificant that I didn't think they warranted mentioning

Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
My material goods that I've worked for are more valuable than the health of a criminal who is trying to take them from me by force. Im sorry you place so little value in the fruits of your labour or material achievments.
Not a fan of the insurance policy then?


Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Preferable to the victim not shooting and risking physical injury? Yes.

Even if 5 criminals have to die for every 1 innocent person who is spared serious injury, it is worth it.
As I've said before, chances are a burglar will just run given the chance, they're not in it to kill the occupant they're there to score something they can sell so they can buy drugs/support starving Romanians etc. Killing them servers no purpose, and death is a significant possibility given that this country has forgotten how to use a gun in a way. And even trained, what's the chances that a person's going to act logically and rationally if they think they're in danger, or even if they're just angry someone's broken into their home?
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 15:51   #53
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gun Control

Quote:
Originally posted by Structural Integrity
Interresting link, but as always there are other things that have to be considered.

First off, there is no seperate numbers that indicate the murders/robberies/assualts with a firearm in the Netherlands in that article. Meaning that it's not possible to tell where this extra 24% comes from.
Thats because it doesnt matter. I cannot emphasize this enough - the rate of gun crime is completely irrelevant; all that matters is the total crimerate.

Society A has 80 murders per 1000 people where 2 of them are gun related.

Society B has 40 murders per 1000 people where 39 of them are gun related.

Which one is better?

The instrument used to commit a crime is irrelevant - all that matters is the number (and severity) of crimes committed.
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 15:53   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
beating someone up is not the same as shooting them.
whats the difference?
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 15:54   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo

Not a fan of the insurance policy then?
I dont see why I should be forced to pay money to support your horribly flawed policies.
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 15:58   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
beating someone up is not the same as shooting them.
It's possible to beat someone to death, it's possible to shoot and only injure someone slightly. The difference isn't particularly important in this context. Weaker people are generally going to need to weapons to defend themselves compared to stronger people.
Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
I dont see why I should be forced to pay money to support your horribly flawed policies.
Most people are going to have contents insurance for other reasons anyway, so the only real difference is going to be a fairly minor difference in premiums. But as I say, it's not about the actual taking of possesions. If someone breaks into my home just to freak me out and try on my wife's underwear (but not take anything) I'm still going to be doing my best to smash their head in.
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 16:00   #57
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gun Control

Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Thats because it doesnt matter. I cannot emphasize this enough - the rate of gun crime is completely irrelevant; all that matters is the total crimerate.

Society A has 80 murders per 1000 people where 2 of them are gun related.

Society B has 40 murders per 1000 people where 39 of them are gun related.

Which one is better?

The instrument used to commit a crime is irrelevant - all that matters is the number (and severity) of crimes committed.
nonono... ofcourse it doesn't matter whether guns are involved or not. I didn't mean that.
What I meant that there was no details between those three categories (ie: murder/robbery/assault). There is a certain severity between those crimes.
Perhaps the robbery rate in the Netherlands is VERY high, and the murder incredibly low. It doesn't give those details, nor do I know.
Assuming my statement above is correct (few murders, many robberies), how many robberies (armed or unarmed) is worth a murder?
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 16:01   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
. Most people are going to have contents insurance for other reasons anyway, so the only real difference is going to be a fairly minor difference in premiums. But as I say, it's not about the actual taking of possesions. If someone breaks into my home just to freak me out and try on my wife's underwear (but not take anything) I'm still going to be doing my best to smash their head in.
Thats not the point - its the attitude in general. "Hey, just let him take everything you own! Insurance will cover it anyway, who cares?!"

Something as intrinsically submissive as this should not be normal attitude people have in life.
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 16:06   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
whats the difference?
Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
It's possible to beat someone to death, it's possible to shoot and only injure someone slightly.
an expert in kung foo will be expert enough not to kill someone.

a random person with a gun is much more likely to kill someone than a random person using their fists. a random person with a gun is much more likely to use hsi gun than a random person with hsi fists.
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 16:12   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
an expert in kung foo will be expert enough not to kill someone.

a random person with a gun is much more likely to kill someone than a random person using their fists. a random person with a gun is much more likely to use hsi gun than a random person with hsi fists.
A person who legally has a firearm in his house goes through stringent training at least every 6 months.

As I said above not many british took up the US past time of shooting for fun. A gun in the house was considered for self defence and the people who had them were trainined in their use and taught when to use it, what to demand the intruder to do and also what would be considered criminal.

This thread isnt about random people but people who had chosen to defend themselves with a firearm but no longer can.
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 16:13   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Something as intrinsically submissive as this should not be normal attitude people have in life.
I quite agree, but I'd locate the issue at violation of their personal rights, not their property. Most people I know who have been burgurled or mugged have been far more affected emotionally than the practical effects of losses of their property. You read the various stories in the papers (mostly sensationalist drivel admittedly) about people being mugged for £3 etc.

And besides, there are numerous attacks on peoples person which is not related to property (rapes, random assaults, etc).
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Unread 7 Mar 2003, 16:21   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
id rather give someone my wallet than shoot them in the face. maybe im just like that but life > material possesions IMO.
hey that was easy. i'll go pick on some other guy tommorow, maybe i'll get his watch and phone too.
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Unread 9 Mar 2003, 16:09   #63
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2834191.stm
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Unread 9 Mar 2003, 18:23   #64
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If you ban guns, only the elite, hardcore criminals have guns. Legalise them, and all criminals have guns meaning you're a lot more likely to get shot at.
And don't most burglaries happen in empty houses anyway? Having a gun isn't going to help matters if your not there to use it. (unless you have trip mines and drone guns scattered about the place)
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Unread 9 Mar 2003, 19:19   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jammers
If you ban guns, only the elite, hardcore criminals have guns. Legalise them, and all criminals have guns meaning you're a lot more likely to get shot at.
And don't most burglaries happen in empty houses anyway? Having a gun isn't going to help matters if your not there to use it. (unless you have trip mines and drone guns scattered about the place)
The latter part of this is probably true. Criminals don't want to have to face occupants (if nothing else, they might phone the police) so they will generally look for houses that are empty*. As you say, a gun isn't going to help there. But, of course some robberies do take place where an occupant is there, and the argument is that people should be able to defend themselves, plus it might make them reconsider. It's all risk assesment though - if you rob a house which you think is empty - worst case scenario you get into a tussle and then run away. If there's a guy with a gun there (even only small chance) the worst case scenario is getting shot. Even if you (as a criminal) decide to carry a gun, you might have to kill the occupant. Despite the police generally being useless they will generally catch you, and almost never end the investigation if you are a killer.

As for the first point - maybe. Criminals (as a rule) wouldn't use legal firearms in any crime (hardcore or not). It'd be stupid, and since it'd be registered in your name you'd almost never be able to use it.

However, since more homes would have guns, people would inevitably steal them. This is a point Michael Moore makes I believe - most guns that criminals carry are ones simply stolen from householders. In my home, (4 occupants) we have a combined income of about £70k per annum yet almost nothing worth stealing. A few computers (lousy resale value, also you need to know what you're stealing to make it worth your while), the televisions are too big to realistically carry, and VCR/DVD players are too cheap. No jewellry of note. I presume a lot of households are the same. But if guns were widespread then there would definitely be something worth stealing. Once again, to cite South Africa - the first thing any decent criminal will steal from your house will be the guns.

* = As a strange aside, we were all officially warned at my workplace to be careful when using the MS Exchange tool "Out of the Office Assistant". It's an e-mail function so when you are on holiday (say) you set your email so it replies "Sorry, I'm out of the office until the 3rd of Feb, I'm in Spain", etc, etc. Now, apparently criminals have been use mass mailers to mail everyone in an entire company (with some random spam) and then looking at anyone whose on holiday. Then using things like 192.com (or the phone book) working out where people live, and then robbing them. This sounds slightly fantastical to me, but genius if true.
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Unread 9 Mar 2003, 19:32   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jammers
If you ban guns, only the elite, hardcore criminals have guns. Legalise them, and all criminals have guns meaning you're a lot more likely to get shot at.
And don't most burglaries happen in empty houses anyway? Having a gun isn't going to help matters if your not there to use it. (unless you have trip mines and drone guns scattered about the place)
Only elite hardcore criminals have them? why does every punk in my neighbourhood have them then?

It's easy to get them if you know the people to go to.

IMHO the whole point of having a gun would make it unknown to the burglar which house would have a gun and thus force him to burgle an empty house. The gun isn't there to stop you getting burgled but for you own personal safety.

Making guns legal wont mean more criminals will have them. There were strict guidelines to who could have a gun and who couldn't. Criminal record? can'tget one. Mental disibility? can't get one and so on.

If someone wanted to commit a crime they'd use an illegal firearm, not a registered one. Using a registered one leaves a trail of evidence. Who owned it before, who gave the gun to whom, or even when was the gun stolen, who was convicted of the robbery, who did they sell the firearm to, etc.
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Unread 9 Mar 2003, 20:08   #67
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I'm against any kind of control. However, in a country that will have control no matter what, I'd rather have gun and knife control, than speech and thought control.
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Unread 9 Mar 2003, 20:46   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
I'm against any kind of control. However, in a country that will have control no matter what, I'd rather have gun and knife control, than speech and thought control.

If they have gun and knife control whats to keep them from getting speech and thought control
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 01:30   #69
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 01:41   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon
If they have gun and knife control whats to keep them from getting speech and thought control
The fact that most people aren't excessivly paranoid?
Besides, having guns doesn't seem to be stopping George Bush from ignoring various bits and pieces of the Constitution.
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 03:34   #71
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Re: Re: Gun Control

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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 04:05   #72
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My neighbor came home to find two men in his house. One had his wife by the neck with a knife, the other was looking for car keys to steal his truck.

Texans have the "concealed carry" law, thus, he had a handgun on his person. He drew, aimed it at the man with the knife, demanded for him to drop it - and he did.

You say, "why didnt he kill the woman?"

If he kiled the woman, he would have had 3 .45 bullets in his brain. Simple reasoning.

The other man, attempted to run, so he got shot in the leg.

The end, was the 2 men being put in prison, and the man and his wife got away with thier lives.


You people fail to see that LETHAL force is not always necisarry.
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 04:10   #73
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Re: Gun Control

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Originally posted by QazokRouge5
You guys all know the story... so what do you think?

I wont give my guns up until I die. They keep me alive. But what about the rest of you?
Its missing a middle ground. You have your gun control freaks that think that if you ban guns altoughter it will get them off the street. Sure it will, the people that actually follow the laws not the muger around the next conor and then you have the NRA and there just scary wackos that believe everyone should be allowed to mount a 22 cailber gatling cannon on to the roof of there house. Me I prefer the middle ground. The people that say no automatic weapons. Extensive background checks with 3 day waiting period and only one gun a month (even though I am considering every Quater cause why do you need a gun every ****ing month).
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 12:28   #74
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Re: Re: Gun Control

Quote:
Originally posted by Intrepid00
Its missing a middle ground. You have your gun control freaks that think that if you ban guns altoughter it will get them off the street. Sure it will, the people that actually follow the laws not the muger around the next conor and then you have the NRA and there just scary wackos that believe everyone should be allowed to mount a 22 cailber gatling cannon on to the roof of there house. Me I prefer the middle ground. The people that say no automatic weapons. Extensive background checks with 3 day waiting period and only one gun a month (even though I am considering every Quater cause why do you need a gun every ****ing month).
What is the reasoning behind your one gun a month law?

Also, how many crimes have been committed with a legally owned automatic weapon within the last 100 years?
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 13:18   #75
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Re: Re: Re: Gun Control

Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
What is the reasoning behind your one gun a month law?
I can only see two justifications for any limitation on the amount of guns you could purchase.
1. You might have them stolen.
2. You might equip an army of stormtroopers.

Also, I think automatic weapons were originally banned in the UK because of Hungerford where an automatic weapon may have been used, or at least owned by Michael Ryan. Not sure tho.
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 13:28   #76
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Gun Control

Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I can only see two justifications for any limitation on the amount of guns you could purchase.
1. You might have them stolen.
2. You might equip an army of stormtroopers.

Also, I think automatic weapons were originally banned in the UK because of Hungerford where an automatic weapon may have been used, or at least owned by Michael Ryan. Not sure tho.
Well I assumed it was to stop someone buying guns for all his 'mates', but I'd imagine it would just encourage the black market.
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 13:33   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon
If they have gun and knife control whats to keep them from getting speech and thought control
If you let people buy guns what's to stop them buying nuclear weapons?!?!?!!?!
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 14:19   #78
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If you let people buy guns what's to stop them buying nuclear weapons?!?!?!!?!
George W. Bush
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 14:24   #79
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Originally posted by Jammers
The fact that most people aren't excessivly paranoid?
Besides, having guns doesn't seem to be stopping George Bush from ignoring various bits and pieces of the Constitution.

You know that guns are the last ditch effort of a society in peril of being enslaved by a tyrannical government. You don't run out and revolt at the slightest mishap, you let the processes of the system work, lobby the government, etc
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 14:38   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon
You know that guns are the last ditch effort of a society in peril of being enslaved by a tyrannical government. You don't run out and revolt at the slightest mishap, you let the processes of the system work, lobby the government, etc
The problem with the "guns protect us against an oppressive government" argument is that the worst violations of freedom often occur with the consent of the populace. You cant fight for freedom if you dont realise youre enslaved. How did your guns help you under Carter? Where were they during the "War on Drugs"? How are they helping you just now?
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 14:43   #81
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I don't see the point in a one gun a month law.

What is the point?

All bought guns are registered, you wouldn't buy a gun for other people as you are accountable for that gun. Even if you scratch the serial off when inspection time comes and you don't have that 9mm you bought, you're in trouble.

If you want a gun to commit a crime you get an illegal one.

People who buy many guns buy gun safes. The guy I go shooting with has a huge safe in his basement, must weigh about half a ton. This is to stop them being stolen and accessed without the owner knowing.

In it he has around 6 assault rifles, 3 tactical rifles, 15+ handguns, shotguns, sub machine guns, etc

The guy's not a wacko, doesn't walk around in commando gear or rant and rave about communists and how 'they're coming'. He's just Mr Average. Married, good job, hobby is shooting and fishing.
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Unread 10 Mar 2003, 14:45   #82
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A scary note about New Hampshire and the government:

It's the only state where an army can legally band together and march on the government in Washington.

Scary when you consider NH is on par with texas and Colorado for weapons!
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