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Unread 10 May 2015, 14:55   #51
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Re: booji stats proposals

I thought for a minute that you might be on to something, but no. Not that easy i'm afraid, ships dont move as a result of class changes. And I am not going to spend loads of time re adding 30 odd ships' stats to shuffle things up just to get feedback!
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Unread 10 May 2015, 15:06   #52
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Re: booji stats proposals

Cant you at least remove their stats or well change them all to targetting SK.

When looking at shipstats you look at what class is hitting what and with what init etc, not what the name of the ship is.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 15:38   #53
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Re: booji stats proposals

After I managed to crash the beta stats by setting one of these ships stats to 0 (that was asking for trouble wasn't it? ) Lunar_Lamp has kindly removed those ships not being used.

Edit: Changed Viper T2 to fr which may help any zik/etd that steals em, though atm the eff if higher than against de, I will clearly need to deal with that when fiddling emp eff more widely.
I also think I see what plaguuu means about zik; zik co really needs to build 6 ships which is terrible defensively (everything else is 4 or 5) so I have added a T2 de to the Buccaneer to reduce this to 5.

Still totally unresolved is what to do in the upper classes about bs since there seems to be a general view that something needs to be done.
I see two options:
1, Move the Guardian to being bs targeting de/cr/bs (firing before BW). At the same time the Wyvern would lose its targeting of de. I would also make the Broker a steal ship enabling etd to potentially play bs.
2, Give up on my 1 tick def desire, have the Centaur fire before the Wyvern as suggested by Mz. May also add another de targeting bs (or a t2) somewhere if this is the case.
My preference would be 1, preferences?

Other:
I agree with the complaint that xan is a bit lacking in options against several classes, as such I propose adding a de ship targeting fr and cr.
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Last edited by booji; 10 May 2015 at 16:53.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 21:17   #54
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
After I managed to crash the beta stats by setting one of these ships stats to 0 (that was asking for trouble wasn't it? ) Lunar_Lamp has kindly removed those ships not being used.

Edit: Changed Viper T2 to fr which may help any zik/etd that steals em, though atm the eff if higher than against de, I will clearly need to deal with that when fiddling emp eff more widely.
I also think I see what plaguuu means about zik; zik co really needs to build 6 ships which is terrible defensively (everything else is 4 or 5) so I have added a T2 de to the Buccaneer to reduce this to 5.

Still totally unresolved is what to do in the upper classes about bs since there seems to be a general view that something needs to be done.
I see two options:
1, Move the Guardian to being bs targeting de/cr/bs (firing before BW). At the same time the Wyvern would lose its targeting of de. I would also make the Broker a steal ship enabling etd to potentially play bs.
2, Give up on my 1 tick def desire, have the Centaur fire before the Wyvern as suggested by Mz. May also add another de targeting bs (or a t2) somewhere if this is the case.
My preference would be 1, preferences?

Other:
I agree with the complaint that xan is a bit lacking in options against several classes, as such I propose adding a de ship targeting fr and cr.

Thats not the problem with Zik, They unfavorable targeting and have to build too much ships. Also their 2 "kill" ships dont really have that much impact Since both are prefired. Bolt hits cutter at 120% and Mara has 2 De class ships that emp 1st. Meaning that the "init" advantage they have is basicly wasted. No Fr team will ever not have Xan as no other Fr can land solo.

I also think Syren should lose the T2, it would put terran back into only having 3 T2's and since Terran Already have 2 other ships targeting De they dont need a 3rd let alone a 2nd one in the cr/bs Meta class.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 22:21   #55
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
... Mara has 2 De class ships that emp 1st. Meaning that the "init" advantage they have is basicly wasted.
My normal guns are prefired by emp is about the shittest complaint about stats I have ever seen
However, there would no longer be two DE emp ships if the Guard became a BS as booji has suggested.
I see your problem with the cutter, indeed I sort of raised that earlier in suggesting the reduction of the Bolt's init. However, as booji pointed out, if both xan fi and zik co prefire FR and have two ticks of defence then FR aint gonna be landing anywhere, so I think that's probably a no go.
You mentioned the Syren, its a bit of a hangover from before the Wyvern joined these stats. If the Wyvern does end up shooting DE (as yet a matter of contention) as well as BS then surely the Syren goes the way of the dodo as a redundant ship?

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
I also think I see what plaguuu means about zik; zik co really needs to build 6 ships which is terrible defensively (everything else is 4 or 5) so I have added a T2 de to the Buccaneer to reduce this to 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Thats not the problem with Zik, They unfavorable targeting and have to build too much ships.
Eeeh, what am I missing here... arnt you actually agreeing... too many ships, 6 down to 5. You could actually do 4 if you went CR/FR although that would be rather problematic as you would be stealing into Fi/Co which you then wouldnt want.
I dont get at all what you mean by unfavorable targeting, you can steal into your roiding fleets with ships of the same meta class... you surely cant be wanting ships to be stealing their own class because that is ridiculously strong defensively against other ziks!
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Unread 10 May 2015, 22:44   #56
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I dont get at all what you mean by unfavorable targeting, you can steal into your roiding fleets with ships of the same meta class... you surely cant be wanting ships to be stealing their own class because that is ridiculously strong defensively against other ziks!
Unfavorable targeting means that zik's ships with T2's should be flipped. Rogue is T2 Fr which is the best thing about he rogue ziks dont WANT to steal bs. Honestly be Mara T1 Bs same init; and Rogue Fr De. And since there is no difference between init 5 vs de and init 20 vs De since 2 of the 3 de are emp it doesnt hurt the zik CR.

As a result of that change Tara should have targets Flipped as well. By making Bs very limitly targeted at T1 will counter the fact that Mara out init. This fix gives zik the damage they need to go fire into the Fr/de meta class because as it stands they HAVE to build 2 ships to play Cr where as with my change atleast they will be able to build just rogues for about 600-800 ticks till Bs really starts getting big. That is what i mean by unfavorable targeting. T2's for zik almost always suck unless they are primarly hitting vs A/c 300ish.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 22:57   #57
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Re: booji stats proposals

I want a single ship roiding fleet seems to me to be another shit complaint, making it difficult to just build one ship and attack with it is a good thing imo. I was only in favour of it with the Dragon (before the wyvern came along) because I could see no way of forcing people to make two and keep the 1 tick defence philosophy.
There is no way you are gonna get the mara shooting BS on init 5, thats death to the BS fleet, which can be already stopped easily by a wyvern force.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 23:05   #58
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Thats not the problem with Zik, They unfavorable targeting and have to build too much ships.
They don’t have to build any more ships than anyone else. Zik co needs to build 5, and cr 4. All other races similarly have a 4 and a 5 option except cat which is both 5.
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I also think Syren should lose the T2, it would put terran back into only having 3 T2's and since Terran Already have 2 other ships targeting De they dont need a 3rd let alone a 2nd one in the cr/bs Meta class.
The Syren is currently pretty pointless all together. Im just not cutting it entirely until what is done with the Wyvern targeting is decided. If it is an inverted Wyvern in targeting then I don’t really see the point in it; why would anyone go for the one not in an attack fleet?
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Unfavorable targeting means that zik's ships with T2's should be flipped. Rogue is T2 Fr which is the best thing about he rogue ziks dont WANT to steal bs. Honestly be Mara T1 Bs same init; and Rogue Fr De. And since there is no difference between init 5 vs de and init 20 vs De since 2 of the 3 de are emp it doesnt hurt the zik CR.
This totally kills Ter Bs as an offensive force. Remember they have no emp options, but you want them to have 1 ship that fires at the same time as it (the wyvern) and one that prefires it? Do you seriously think Ter Bs will ever land under such conditions?
How does firing before or after the Centaur not matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
As a result of that change Tara should have targets Flipped as well. By making Bs very limitly targeted at T1 will counter the fact that Mara out init. This fix gives zik the damage they need to go fire into the Fr/de meta class because as it stands they HAVE to build 2 ships to play Cr where as with my change atleast they will be able to build just rogues for about 600-800 ticks till Bs really starts getting big. That is what i mean by unfavorable targeting. T2's for zik almost always suck unless they are primarly hitting vs A/c 300ish.
When I am still fixing the problems of a 1 ship Ter attack fleet why would I want to be encouraging another? And while I am at it why does Zik want to steal fr/de but not bs? Fr/de seems no more desirable to me.
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Unread 10 May 2015, 23:14   #59
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
T2's for zik almost always suck unless they are primarly hitting vs A/c 300ish.
Just had to point it out: In case you had not noticed the T2 of the Rogue is hitting 3 xan ships with an a/c of just over 300
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Unread 10 May 2015, 23:18   #60
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Re: booji stats proposals

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And while I am at it why does Zik want to steal fr/de but not bs? Fr/de seems no more desirable to me.
I know I am the most useless zik of all time but I think I would actively want to take a BS fleet, especially if you continue to not have a kill DE target it. And if playing CR/CO would rather not be stealing FR/DE.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 00:18   #61
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Re: booji stats proposals

What I don't understand is you want to make a unstoppable roiding fleet OUT OF TERRAN the race that should be a juggernaut instead of a glass cannon. If thats what you want the you will see a dominated by Ter Bs xp whores.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 07:22   #62
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Re: booji stats proposals

It seems illogical to me to complain that the marauder is prefired by two emp ships and then complain that ter bs is unstoppable when there are three emp ships that target it. Ter bs is only stoppable by one kill ship;wyverns which fire at the same time. But this is often the case with attack fleets.
Hence xan fi is in a similar situation, with two kill ships that fire at the same time (possibly to be reduced to one depending), and two emp ships. Where there is a difference is that all the ships targeting the Wyvern are in ally def time whereas only one emp ship that targets xan fi is. With xan having the benefit of cloak surely if one of these two is overpowered it is xan fi.

P.s. I have said I won't make any changes with stats for a few days since there are people playing on beta (no idea why with an unfinished set) so I won't make any actual changes but instead take notes and do a whole load at once. Let's take the opportunity to get the targeting and ships nailed down.

P.p.s. Just to make that clear I will give a couple of days (Probably til Tuesday evening) for argument about what to do over targeting, suggestions for adding new ships etc. I will then make all those agreed changes and modify effs, damage and armour. I will then give a day or so for comment on any necessary changes to eff etc. then declare the stats done later in the week (probably Wednesday evening). I have already missed the target of the end of the weekend I was set by mz! hopefully there will still be enough time for someone else on beta if they want it.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 08:11   #63
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Re: booji stats proposals

Further to that, you are risking the stats sin I am often guilty of, that is just looking at initiatives and saying, this fleet fires first therefore it owns. The Terr BS's D/C is really poor, and this makes it perfectly possible to stop, albeit messily, with the cruisers that fire after it.
If it is still OP then its armour could be knocked back a bit rather than adding prefiring ships.
EDIT - the other option would be something i specifically said i didnt want: to make the wyvern hit first, and so defensive wyverns protect defensive cruisers.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 10:16   #64
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Re: booji stats proposals

Viper and Bucc changes look good, though Zik now fully covers with Fr/Rogue, albeit at all-steal inits. I don't know if that's terrible or OK.

I would also advise you to ignore people who play beta. At best, they're just speedgaming. At worst, they're getting the wrong impression because the environment is completely different than on live.

As for De/Bs, all options presented, including your original thought of 0 interaction, seem acceptable to me, within the parameters you've set.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 13:30   #65
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Re: booji stats proposals

i was talking to booji on irc and want to add my concerns with xan fr here also for everyone else

atm xan can build 100% attack fleet (while relying on ally/gal defence against bs)
this is a too big advantage for my liking

they prefire or fire same time against FI, CO, FR and CR (not counting emp ships)
basically only BS and DE has a chance at roiding XAN succesfully - against DE big xans will have a lot of flak to cannon fodder before their ships (naturally high on d/c) fire - so landing against big xans will get costly fast

overall i think xan is too strong (not their fi!)

i proposed 2 suggestions but only 1 of those would be an easy fix

1) Remove the t2 of the Bolt Thrower and force xans to invest in CO

2) move FR attackfleet to TER and DE attackfleet to XAN

i love xan myself and for sure i am none of those haters that scream "nerf xan" all the time
but having xan as the best counter option against xan plus giving em the possibility to build 100% attack ships is way over the top
it will just result in a xan universe which no one will enjoy
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Unread 11 May 2015, 17:39   #66
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Re: booji stats proposals

How does zik being able to cover all targets using cr/fr a good thing. Since neither fleet is worth buiding at all. Zik fr sucks EVERYTHING prefires it, even other zik's. They add almost nothing to the fr team up. At the moment I look at zik as the WORST race in these stats, they have no attack options at all, except maybe Cath and maybe other ziks. You need to find a way to make the zik kill ships usefull otherwise why have them except as personal def planets, and multi's. Because thats all they can do.

I suggest: Mara T1 Bs 380 A/C 420 D/C init 7 Rogue T1 FR T2 De leave stats as is.

Switch init clipper and vendor.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 18:32   #67
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Re: booji stats proposals

Zik usualy is a shit race to attack with, solo.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 19:02   #68
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Re: booji stats proposals

Then why don't we remove them from the game since they are a shit race according to BB. Just because "usually" they are a shit solo race doesnt mean that should change. The idea of balanced stats is that every race is able to attack and defend equally. If zik can't attack then the stats arent balanced thus they need to be changed. You also need to balance out the ship ratios there are 9 bloody Fr and only 5 De and 2 races have 2x fr and no fr pods thats just begging for people to either cov op fr or steal fr for abusive stats.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 20:55   #69
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Re: booji stats proposals

Why would we remove them? Theyve recently been proved usefull even though on paper they are looking shit two rounds running?
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Unread 11 May 2015, 20:57   #70
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Re: booji stats proposals

Butcher didn't say they were a shit race. He said it was a shitty solo attacking race. Which it is.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 21:03   #71
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
i proposed 2 suggestions but only 1 of those would be an easy fix...
2) move FR attackfleet to TER and DE attackfleet to XAN
Oi oi! Looking at my log it was me who raised it first, I just thought it would cause too much chaos to make it not worth doing. Anyhow that is somewhat beside the point. Looking at it again I think it helps solve some other people’s problems with the stats at the same time so I will sketch out what it would look like and see what everyone thinks.

The proposed changes:
Xan:
Ghost moves to de T1 fr init 6 (same as Drake was)
Bomber as de added T1 cr init 7 (same as the Centaur was)
Bolt thrower added T1 de T2 fi init 7
Ter:
Pegasus becomes T1 co T2 fi (same as Bolt Thrower was) init 4 (thought should be ahead of xan fi having removed the other fr ship that was firing the same time and it being T2 on fi)
Chimera becomes T1 cr T2 de init 7 (same as ghost was)
Drake init up to 8
Centaur to be deleted
At the same time without the concerns about ter de not having enough targeting I propose changing bs:
Wyvern becomes T1 bs, drops T2.
Etd:
As a knock on of this:
Guardian becomes bs, not certain about the targeting – probably T1 cr, T2 bs.
Broker becomes a steal ship.
Possibly Tycoon gets a T2 on de (or possibly only targets de), possibly made same init as xan de – undecided on that.
Cat:
As a consequence of the loss of the bolt thrower equal init with fi:
Move roach to co (renamed beetle)
Edit: If anyone finds it easier to visualise on a spreadsheet then these changes are on my original spreadsheet in a 2nd tab 'fr de swap' https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing all the question marks are possible changes around that suggested de target on the Tycoon which requires some initiative reshuffling.

So what would be the benefits of this set of changes as a whole?
1, Xan can’t just build attack fleet in the same way. Terran potentially can but this is rather less scary!
2, The targeting on xan fi becomes very standard (with the peg+emp ships prefiring), hopefully alleviating concerns.
3, Ter becomes a more defensive race, which is as it really should be.
4, There should be less concern about 0 loss ships; there are only two left (BW and Vip) and as cat cr targets both de and bs I will make it so that the 0 loss ships have less good emp eff.
5, I get my one tick bs back. With the Guardian as a possible emp partner (after broker steals) the Wyvern can become a normal ship so able to stop solo ter bs on its own.
6, Tia should be happy; with the Marauder prefiring xan de zik cr can now roid all xan fleets rather than just a ter de fleet that is likely to have some bs that prefire zik too.
7, Makes the number of ships much more even (I have no idea why anyone thinks uneven ship numbers is a problem but I have had a couple of complaints about it on IRC!)

And the disadvantages (bound to be some)?
1, Etd fr will when solo have lots of trouble against 0 def fleets (is there fi in with that de def fleet?!) The only thing I can see to do here is to have the ranger’s eff very high – but since I have been making emp eff high against xan compared to other races this should not be too much of a problem.
2, Ter bs when it gets a etd partner will be very powerful (as might xan/cat de hence the suggested Tyc change).

Does anyone have any views on this; is it a good idea? Am I missing downsides for it? What init would you have the guardian at compared to BW and Tarantula? What about those changes I have as ‘possible’, would you make them?
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Unread 11 May 2015, 23:03   #72
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Re: booji stats proposals

Haven't payed much attention to stats yet, but reading what you posted, a few things come to mind:

Ter building "only" 1 class isn't new, we had a few rounds with that kind of stats and people seem to like it when it happens.

Zik having a few more options to attack with CR, it's good also (xan and ter before getting BS).
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Unread 11 May 2015, 23:07   #73
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by lince View Post
Ter building "only" 1 class isn't new, we had a few rounds with that kind of stats and people seem to like it when it happens.
booji said it could potentially just build attack fleet BS and FR - not just one class. He is wrong anyway, since he seems to have forgotten that the only defence against FR is either the Drake (DE) or Harpy (FI). Even for xan the theory they could build just attack fleets relied on not having def against BS at all, just relying on allies, no reason why terr couldnt do this ofc.
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Unread 11 May 2015, 23:24   #74
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Re: booji stats proposals

Yes sorry that is what I meant; building all attack ships and relying on ally def to plug the hole.

However I cant see many ter players doing that. For that it takes a fundamentally selfish player, something that most defensive players (those likely to want to play ter) are not so likely to be... or perhaps I am engaging in pa stereotyping!
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Unread 12 May 2015, 04:07   #75
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
or perhaps I am engaging in pa stereotyping!
Yes, you are. Seems like a lot of changes to not even address the "issue" which i'm not sure is an issue? The same could be said for cath and etd but you're not making changes there? Both have attack fleets that cover 5 classes. Perhaps you should look at terran and zik instead if you want to "fix" it.
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Unread 12 May 2015, 04:53   #76
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Re: booji stats proposals

Black Widow and Tarantula got the same init.
Whats the idea behind this?
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Unread 12 May 2015, 05:05   #77
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmaster View Post
Yes, you are. Seems like a lot of changes to not even address the "issue" which i'm not sure is an issue? The same could be said for cath and etd but you're not making changes there? Both have attack fleets that cover 5 classes.
For me it is only because of the cloak that it is a problem. They can use this all in attack fleet much more effectively than any other race. And I am sure that many would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmaster View Post
Perhaps you should look at terran and zik instead if you want to "fix" it.
In case you had not noticed Terran is a very big part of this 'solution'. How do you propose a problem with xan attack fleets be solved with zik?

However I would note that if this were only solving a problem with xan I would not have brought it up. Such a large change is only raised because it helps with multiple other problems at the same time:
1, this bs problem that has been an issue throughout this thread.
2, Tia's combined issue of too many fr and of zik cr attack fleets not having an obvious target.
3, it also helps in other problem areas like the viper (allows its eff to be comparatively lower because it previously needed very good eff to be a decent defship vs Terran, this is not a problem against xan).
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Unread 12 May 2015, 05:09   #78
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Black Widow and Tarantula got the same init.
Whats the idea behind this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
What init would you have the guardian at compared to BW and Tarantula?
This was meant to leave the issue of all the emp inits at the top up for question and opinion. It was originally the same because I did not want cat de or cat cr to clearly dominate the other.
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Unread 12 May 2015, 05:13   #79
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Oi oi! Looking at my log it was me who raised it first, I just thought it would cause too much chaos to make it not worth doing. Anyhow that is somewhat beside the point.
hahaha apologizes Mr.Booji - i didnt mean to steal an idea here - i was just summarizing what we were chating about
i blame it on english not beeing my mothers language

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmaster View Post
Yes, you are. Seems like a lot of changes to not even address the "issue" which i'm not sure is an issue? The same could be said for cath and etd but you're not making changes there? Both have attack fleets that cover 5 classes. Perhaps you should look at terran and zik instead if you want to "fix" it.
both cath and etd arent cloaked though
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Unread 12 May 2015, 06:23   #80
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
For me it is only because of the cloak that it is a problem.
Okay, I can accept that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
they (xan) prefire or fire same time against FI, CO, FR and CR (not counting emp ships)
basically only BS and DE has a chance at roiding XAN succesfully
So I looked at all races and their ability to land (basing on prefire or fire also not counting cath - however i did include etd emp (perhaps i shouldnt have) before and after proposed changes. Apologies if i made mistake as i did it quickly (i'll look again when i get home)

current
Land on ter: Etd FR
Land on xan: Ter DE/BS, ETD FR
Land on zik: Ter BS, Xan FI/FR, Zik CO/CR, Etd CO/
Land on etd: Xan FR, Zik CO

after proposed change
Land on ter: Ter FR/BS, Xan DE, Etd FR
Land on xan: Ter FR/BS, Xan FI/DE, Zik CR, Etd CO/FR
Land on zik: Ter FR/BS, Xan FI, Zik CR, etd CO/FR
Land on etd: Ter FR, Zik CO

I'm neither here nor there on the outcome - but is that what you intended?
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Unread 12 May 2015, 07:39   #81
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmaster View Post
after proposed change
Land on ter: Ter FR/BS, Xan DE, Etd FR
Land on xan: Ter FR/BS, Xan FI/DE, Zik CR, Etd CO/FR
Land on zik: Ter FR/BS, Xan FI, Zik CR, etd CO/FR
Land on etd: Ter FR, Zik CO
This is much closer to the openness of the set I initially had before modifications. Though I usually do this exercise the other way around; by who which attack fleets can land on.

On yours on the land on zik you mean zik co not etd fr, the Cutter fires before the Dealer. Also ter fr would not be able to land on xan; The Ghost would be init 6 against 7 for the Chimera.

I also tend not to include emp as a reason for not being able to land on someone as we all know that emp actually attracts rather than deterring incs. As such etd would really be landed on by xan fi (they have no kill ship targeting fi) and by ter bs (where they have a stealer in addition to the guardian), and possibly by xan de - depending on the decision on the Tycoon.
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Unread 12 May 2015, 17:15   #82
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Re: booji stats proposals

Just a comment to note that unless someone comes up with objections I'll have a go at making these changes in a few hours.

There have been suggestions that I switch Pegasus too t1 fi and t2 co to help co a bit - which is weak. I probably will do this.
It was also suggested that I switch the Ranger to t1 de t2 fi. Which I think will mean etd very vulnerable to fi. Better just to have the rff on the two targets not too dissimilar imo.
I may also change the Tycoon to shooting before ter fr rather than etd.
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Unread 12 May 2015, 18:53   #83
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Re: booji stats proposals

i need to see the changes before i can actually comment - my imagination isnt good enough
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Unread 12 May 2015, 21:42   #84
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
On yours on the land on zik you mean zik co not etd fr. Also ter fr would not be able to land on xan
Yep, I knew I would make mistakes as I rushed - thanks for spotting. I also agree with your further comments.
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Unread 12 May 2015, 21:56   #85
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Re: booji stats proposals

OK I have now made the changes outlined above.
The exception is turning the Roach into a Beetle which I have yet to do as I have yet to have any opinions from anyone on it.

Other changes (compared to what was suggested earlier):
moved Cutter down to init 5 so that Dealer could have init 6 allowing it to fire before the Tycoon - the Chimera now fires after. Swapped as decided the Etd fr is actually the weaker of the two. Also due to this (and due the way emp res is atm) I have currently left the viper only targeting De. Still may make it target fr too depending on opinions but since both cat de and cat de have main attack ships T1 on fr I don't think it necessary.
I have also left the Pegasus firing T1 fi for the moment to help co a little which is almost certainly the weakest teamup. This makes Ter very vulnerable to fr so to reduce this a little I replaced the Harpy T2 on fr with a Phoenix T2 (moving Phoenix up to init 7).
Also done a fair bit of fiddling with emp effs, and a bit on damage and armour (zik in particular has tended to have their damage reduced a bit and their armour correspondingly increased).
The two zero loss ships remaining (Viper and BW) both have lower emp eff than non zero loss ships hitting the same things. The Guardian has a worse initiative than the Tarantula and BW but better eff. The Ranger eff has remained high due to its potential problems with xan def.

If possible I dont want to make many changes to targeting and initiative from now (unless there is a sudden outcry to turn the clock back and find another solution to xan) so if people could give their opinions on whether any ships need their armour/damage, or emp eff/res changed it would be much appreciated.

I also need opinions on the Haunt (xan sk). It was de, clearly it cant remain de. Do I make it fr despite xan having a fr ship, or do I make it cr/bs?
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Unread 12 May 2015, 23:36   #86
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Re: booji stats proposals

make the xan SK ship cr/bs
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Unread 13 May 2015, 00:06   #87
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Re: booji stats proposals

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make the xan SK ship cr/bs
why? you still need to research siege to build them anyway.

also from the time I played on beta as zik I'm not sure if it was just the tick speed and the fact there is so few people on there but for some reason zik just didn't feel right but that could just be me
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Unread 13 May 2015, 01:39   #88
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Do I make it fr despite xan having a fr ship, or do I make it cr/bs?
Make it FR. All other races have a BS/CR pod except Xan/Etd however Etd has two CR ships.

As for Roach - I don't think the round needs two anti FI (CO based) emp ships.

I like the Cutter/Dealer change.
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Unread 13 May 2015, 15:25   #89
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Re: booji stats proposals

In the previous iteration I commented on, Ter De was OK (though suffered from 0-loss defense) and Bs was clearly OP. Cat was alright offensively and only roided by Zik Co, sort of. Etd was very underpowered offensively and mediocre defensively, and Xan and Zik were underpowered defensively and good offensively.

Now, both Ter fleets murder everything the universe is likely to throw at them. Ter De would've been alright before if the 0-loss issue had been fixed, but now Ter Fr is about as strong as Ter Bs was, and Ter Bs has been improved beyond even that high peak.

Cat is immune to all but Ter and Etd Co, and roids everything except itself and Ter.

Xan De can roid itself and Ter (which makes them unique, at least). Xan Fi can roid itself and Zik. That's a complete list. Everything except Zik Co (and maybe Etd Fr) shits all over Xan.

Zik is roided by everything except Xan De and Etd Fr. They're their usual mediocre self offensively, but that's in their nature, so I won't give you a hard time about that.

Etd seems to be the only race that has moved in the right direction. If Ter hadn't been around, I'd even call them strong, but they're still at least alright.

Honestly, I'm just not seeing these stats improving as time goes on. At best, it's sideways movement. At worst, it's one step forwards, two back. :/
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Unread 13 May 2015, 17:11   #90
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Cat is immune to all but Ter and Etd Co, and roids everything except itself and Ter.
This immediately struck me as odd, as I felt Cat effs were low. I admit I do not remember effs from round to round or have a clue what the usual standard is but booji's effs for t1 (excluding SKs) are more than 20% below those of this round, and would be more than 25% below if the almost totally unused Mantis were excluded.
I know booji's have the benefit of in some cases not being shot back at so the effs are not the whole story, but to me this hardly looks like the pwning Cat you see.

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Attack ships: Scarab 158%, Roach 173.5%, Tarantula 176.6%.
Defence ships: Beetle 161.9%, Moth 169.1%, Viper 177.4%, Mantis 145.3%.
Overall average: 165.9%.

booji's stats
Attack fleets: Scarab 157.7%, BW 128.4%, Tarantula 145.5%, Mantis 154.3%.
Defence ships: Viper 121.5%, Roach 154.9%.
Overall average: 143.7%.
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Unread 13 May 2015, 19:11   #91
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Re: booji stats proposals

I don't really pay much attention to effs until the very end. I tend to assume that Cat cannot roid Ter, and can beat all other ships they EMP at T1, and not those that shoot before them, or that they EMP at T2. Considering that EMP effs were about 10-15% too high in r61, the effs in these stats don't significantly alter my opinion, with the exception of the Black Widow.
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Unread 13 May 2015, 20:46   #92
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Re: booji stats proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Now, both Ter fleets murder everything the universe is likely to throw at them. Ter De would've been alright before if the 0-loss issue had been fixed, but now Ter Fr is about as strong as Ter Bs was, and Ter Bs has been improved beyond even that high peak.
Ter bs can potentially be 'fixed' by your lights by adding a T2 to the Marauder. I personally think that this means it will rarely if ever land alone as it can easily be stopped by not just 3 emp ships but also 2 kill ships. I may be particularly sensitive to this having played ter/etd bs in round 60 and spent all round launch recalling trying to avoid rogues. That said it can now at least get an emp teamup with etd so works as a team.

Ter fr I have no idea how to 'fix'. I already think it will have difficulty landing with two cloaked ships firing before it - the Ghost and the Tycoon. And while I initially assumed that moving from de to fr would make it better defensively I am not really so sure that it makes much difference; ter and etd fr go through it really easily whereas previously (in the more recent incarnation) ter de could not go through ter due to the Wyvern firing on de without reply. Due to the high emp res I have given ter cat may actually have more difficulties than sometimes but no more so than any other race does when fighting through a main attack fleet's numbers. As such etd fr, ter fr, xan de, (and potentially) cat de and cat cr should all be able to roid ter fr (presuming that the player builds enough Wyverns to ensure that ter bs cant roid him rather than Syrens)

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Cat is immune to all but Ter and Etd Co, and roids everything except itself and Ter.
I never thought I would hear anyone say cat is immune to anything. Sure it fires first and with good eff. But cat needs 4 (realistically 5) ships to cover everything. Even if they have 150% eff on all of those with approximately a third of value in attack fleet almost anyone with equal value should be able to roid cat.
See http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=t9jjrc7tkurktdv

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Xan De can roid itself and Ter (which makes them unique, at least).
As already mentioned Ter can at very least be roided by ter fr (this can be made easier by switching the T2 back to the Harpy from Phoenix if wanted) and by etd fr.
Xan de despite the bad emp res of xan can quite easily roid cat as de is T2 on the Tarantula and the Viper has low eff. Being able to roid three of five races seems reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Xan Fi can roid itself and Zik. That's a complete list.
The calc above shows that xan fi will be able to roid cat unless he is putting excessive amounts into roaches. Etd might be possible too - though I think it less likely as they are more likely to be putting excessive amount into rangers.
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Everything except Zik Co (and maybe Etd Fr) shits all over Xan.
If ter fr gets roided by xan de it stands to reason that ter fr cannot easily roid a xan with ghosts. But generally I am in agreement with you here.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Zik is roided by everything except Xan De and Etd Fr. They're their usual mediocre self offensively, but that's in their nature, so I won't give you a hard time about that.
The suggested T2 to Marauder rather than Rogue would add another to this list improving them a little.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Etd seems to be the only race that has moved in the right direction. If Ter hadn't been around, I'd even call them strong, but they're still at least alright.
Well im glad its not all in the wrong direction from your view. Unfortunately I don't think we going to ever see eye to eye on this set.
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Unread 14 May 2015, 03:03   #93
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Re: booji stats proposals

I started making calcs to see how attacking fleets slightly bigger than defending fleet sizes (40k vs 34k) would go. Attack/Defensive fleet make ups are what I think a player would have (maybe). If its an off-attack ship on defense side I have dropped it to 10k value.

FI:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=3uy36v0c6mdkari

Co:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=pmcucinpmpcuh40

Then I got lazy...but thought I'd share it to save someone else the time :-p - just tick on/off fleets per match up. Sorry I cant post urls yet but the calc id is there

Last edited by zmaster; 14 May 2015 at 12:10. Reason: I now have 15 posts and can post URLs
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Unread 14 May 2015, 08:08   #94
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmaster View Post
I started making calcs to see how attacking fleets slightly bigger than defending fleet sizes (40k vs 34k) would go. Attack/Defensive fleet make ups are what I think a player would have (maybe). If its an off-attack ship on defense side I have dropped it to 10k value.

FI:
id=3uy36v0c6mdkari

Co:
id=pmcucinpmpcuh40

Then I got lazy...but thought I'd share it to save someone else the time :-p - just tick on/off fleets per match up. Sorry I cant post urls yet but the calc id is there
if you wanna save people time at least paste the entire html address
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Unread 14 May 2015, 09:23   #95
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Re: booji stats proposals

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if you wanna save people time at least paste the entire html address
He cant
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Unread 15 May 2015, 01:53   #96
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Re: booji stats proposals

Not sure if this has been mentioned, bit of a TLDR, but atm Widows free fire on BS. this an oversight or?
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Unread 15 May 2015, 07:51   #97
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Re: booji stats proposals

It has been mentioned, as with the viper free firing on DE, these are meant as a balance to the increase in attacking effectiveness the BS and DE fleets gain by otherwise having only one tick of alliance defence.
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Unread 15 May 2015, 12:19   #98
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Unfortunately I don't think we going to ever see eye to eye on this set.
I'm willing to accept certain restrictions on what is allowed in these stats, and have been doing so since late page 1, when I said I preferred 0-loss BW over 0-loss Wyvern. Fi/Co doesn't fire at De, Fr/De doesn't fire at Bs, compensated for by 0-loss EMP defense, fine. While I haven't been overly enthusiastic about these concepts, I don't hate them, and you can still create a good set of ship stats within these limits. So get to it!
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Unread 15 May 2015, 12:29   #99
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Re: booji stats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm willing to accept certain restrictions on what is allowed in these stats, and have been doing so since late page 1, when I said I preferred 0-loss BW over 0-loss Wyvern. Fi/Co doesn't fire at De, Fr/De doesn't fire at Bs, compensated for by 0-loss EMP defense, fine. While I haven't been overly enthusiastic about these concepts, I don't hate them, and you can still create a good set of ship stats within these limits. So get to it!
The only def wich kills BS is BS itself.
It is a big issue with these stats, even cath CR has a crazy low eff vs BS even though its the only viable def outside Terran.
I dont realy get the approach with BS only being targetted by CR/BS.
The effect the troll tags has had upon PA should make stats makers seriously reconsider any ideas of only inclass targetting.
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Unread 15 May 2015, 15:07   #100
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Re: booji stats proposals

Crazy suggestion to maybe stop people getting all emo over the TER BS situation.
With the ETD broker and guardian you could maybe switch them so broker is emp and guardian is steal (opens up ETD for stealing CR pods and possible for a 3rd fleet although not great).
So yes no kill ships except BS hits BS but its still at least possible to stop

I'm not great with stats and this could be a stupid idea and may not work but its an idea at least
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