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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 16:31   #1
Marilyn Manson
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Exclamation Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4134886.stm

One way to deal with overhead noise pollution, I suppose.
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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 16:34   #2
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Should have let the sad old tw*t toast in the forest fire. That would have interuppted his afternoon nap
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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 16:35   #3
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
crap now we aren't allowed to be cranky when we retire, what do I have to look forward to?
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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 16:37   #4
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Exclamation Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
The fact that he had fifteen hunting rifles but only chose to attack the police with saucepans disapoints me a tad, I have to say.

He should have gone down in a blaze of glory, like at Waco.
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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 16:59   #5
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
The fact that he had fifteen hunting rifles but only chose to attack the police with saucepans disapoints me a tad, I have to say.

He should have gone down in a blaze of glory, like at Waco.
yeah i mean he could have at least challenged them to a fight

or maybe even

Quote:
When they arrived at his crib, McClain allegedly tried to strike a cop with a four-foot sword. After missing, McClain retreated to his basement, where he donned a chainmail armored vest and leather gauntlets to protect his arms. He also added a giant wooden mallet to his arsenal and beckoned officers to come downstairs and get him. "I'm gonna crush your ****ing skulls," McClain warned. Then, in a nice rhetorical flourish (for a lunatic, at least), he added, "I have a thousand years of power." That omnipotence, however, was no match for a police Taser, which felled McClain.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...1.html#content
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 00:17   #6
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He should have gone down in a blaze of glory, like a Wacko.


typo?
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 00:50   #7
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
He was French and unlikely to be capable of any real harm with a rifle. However, he well may have been able to cause severe damage with the sauce pans.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 05:24   #8
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
It amused me to picture a squint hairy 81 year old arrogant french man hitting police with saucepans, if only he had used a baguette we could have had the perfect stereotype
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 15:12   #9
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
The fact that he had fifteen hunting rifles but only chose to attack the police with saucepans disapoints me a tad, I have to say.

He should have gone down in a blaze of glory, like at Waco.
What do you know about Waco?
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 15:14   #10
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Exclamation Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
What do you know about Waco?
Religious nuts perish in large fire after being under siege by the Feds for a while.

'Bout it, really.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 15:18   #11
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Religious nuts perish in large fire after being under siege by the Feds for a while.

'Bout it, really.
Federal government ruthlessly kills innocents for no good reason, is 'bout it.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 15:34   #12
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Federal government ruthlessly kills innocents for no good reason, is 'bout it.
Conspiracy theories ahoy. Evil Federal Government brutally destroys peace-loving religious group, I suppose?
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 15:39   #13
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Exclamation Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
The Federal Government is controlled by nihilistic thugs bent on ultra-violence. Or at least it was when Janet Reno was Attorney General.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 18:32   #14
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
What was the point of lobbing grenades, firing sub-machine gun rounds randomly at anything that moved, having ATF agents (TAX AGENTS FFS) (PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELONG ANYWHERE NEAR A TACTICAL SITUATION FFS) in cat suits, and bringing in a tank, against a bunch of women and children, then killing them all?
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 20:07   #15
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
What was the point of lobbing grenades, firing sub-machine gun rounds randomly at anything that moved, having ATF agents (TAX AGENTS FFS) (PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELONG ANYWHERE NEAR A TACTICAL SITUATION FFS) in cat suits, and bringing in a tank, against a bunch of women and children, then killing them all?

Seemed like a good idea at the time probably ?
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 20:10   #16
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Conspiracy theories ahoy. Evil Federal Government brutally destroys peace-loving religious group, I suppose?
sounds like afganistan, doesnt it?
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 20:34   #17
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Conspiracy theories ahoy. Evil Federal Government brutally destroys peace-loving religious group, I suppose?
I'm not sure anyone said that.

I know next to nothing about the events at Waco but I do seem to remember some debate surrounding whether the Feds had fired potentially flammable cannisters into the compound (which I think they originally denied but then later admitted). I also remember a Bill Hicks routine surrounding footage of a tank (some recording which did not appear on US Networks? I forget).

In any case, it seems rather weak to try and resort to ridicule to dismiss opposing arguments in this manner.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 22:53   #18
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Waco. \o/

ATF stands for Alcohol, Tobacco and FIREARMS. They do a lot of tactical stuff.

When ATF agents showed up doing their job, several of them were shot by inhabitants of the shit hole compound.

When they went back, they didn't go back firing. They had a stand off that lasted quite awhile.

They did shoot in tear gas canisters which can ignite things in the right circumstances but usually don't. Bad luck for the folks in the house.

They did show the footage of the tank on American TV, I was rather disturbed that they didn't open fire with the thing at range.

Too bad about the kids. The idiots inside were not about to let them out.

Two things that Reno did that I liked were Waco and when she sent that Elian Gonzalez kid back to Cuba.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:14   #19
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
When they went back, they didn't go back firing. They had a stand off that lasted quite awhile.
Did they or the FBI do any shooting at all?
Quote:
They did shoot in tear gas canisters which can ignite things in the right circumstances but usually don't.
Didn't they deny this for some time?
Quote:
They did show the footage of the tank on American TV, I was rather disturbed that they didn't open fire with the thing at range.
Obviously they showed some footage, the issue was some footage that was not. I honestly cannot remember, I am only going from what the comedian Bill Hicks said near the time.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:26   #20
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Did they or the FBI do any shooting at all?
The first time round there may have been some return fire by the surviving agents but it was the Branch Dividians who initiated hostilities.

Quote:
Didn't they deny this for some time?
I don't recall precisely. I think there may have been some early "confusion" on this point.

Quote:
Obviously they showed some footage, the issue was some footage that was not. I honestly cannot remember, I am only going from what the comedian Bill Hicks said near the time.
They showed a tank bashing in a portion of the back of the house. If there was more, I didn't see it.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:28   #21
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
http://www.sacredcow.com/waco/wacofire.html

I'm not sure how good the quality (or reliability) is, damn 56k. If someone could watch it and tell me if it's worth it that would be great.

Appaently it shows a tank shooting fire...
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:31   #22
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Shouldnt this thread read

"DODDERY OLD FRENCH **** FIRES GUNS AT HELICOPTERS THEN ATTACKS POLICE WITH FRYING PAN. REPORTS CLAIM RICHARD "DEADMEAT" TIER WAS NOT IN THE AREA AT THE TIME".

or something.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:37   #23
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
A read of this was pretty informative.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:48   #24
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
once again the GD 'off-topic-machine' rears its ugly head
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:50   #25
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
once again the GD 'off-topic-machine' rears its ugly head
It's called evolution.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:56   #26
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The first time round there may have been some return fire by the surviving agents but it was the Branch Dividians who initiated hostilities.
My issue isn't with who fired first, I just seem to recall the argument being between the Feds claim they hadn't shot at all versus other stuff (e.g. a CBS / Dan Rathers bit) that they had shot.
Quote:
I don't recall precisely. I think there may have been some early "confusion" on this point.
For six years if Wiki is to be believed.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:58   #27
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It's called evolution.


evolution happens slowly, GD is more like mutation
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 23:58   #28
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Well, as we saw with the Brazilian being shot, the true story is rarely the one first told to the media. It's stupid, but it's neither the first nor will it be the last time a government lies to its people.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 00:43   #29
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Waco. \o/

ATF stands for Alcohol, Tobacco and FIREARMS. They do a lot of tactical stuff.

When ATF agents showed up doing their job, several of them were shot by inhabitants of the shit hole compound.

When they went back, they didn't go back firing. They had a stand off that lasted quite awhile.

They did shoot in tear gas canisters which can ignite things in the right circumstances but usually don't. Bad luck for the folks in the house.

They did show the footage of the tank on American TV, I was rather disturbed that they didn't open fire with the thing at range.

Too bad about the kids. The idiots inside were not about to let them out.

Two things that Reno did that I liked were Waco and when she sent that Elian Gonzalez kid back to Cuba.
I'm afraid that we have to agree to disagree on this one buddy.

While the ATF may stand for alcohol, tobacco and firearms, they are NOT involved in tactical situations, nor is it thier job to do such things. That's why we have the FBI. The ATF is a tax agency, with the sole purpose of making arrests based on records, improper firearm regulations, etc. They have NO BUSINESS in cat suits with sub-machineguns.
-----------------------------------
The ATF agents opened fire on the Davidians first, this, despite the link provided by furball, has been proven over the last few years.
-----------------------------------
The tanks were used to smash trhe lower floors of the building, despite government claims that they were "defensive only".
----------------------------------
It wasn't "bad luck" for the inhabitants, it was
A. the windiest day in the 6 week standoff.
B. the agents were firing pyrotechnic grenades into the house.
C. the fire helicopters were sent away.
and
D. the firetrucks were intentionally routedthrough the sherriffs office, and then held at the entrance of the property untilthe agents deemed it "safe for them to enter"

In other words, when everyone was dead.
--------------------------------
The CS tear gas which permeated the building was not itself classified as flammable, nor was the solvent used to carry it. However, when the solvent evaporated, the remaining CS material was suspended in the air.

As any high school chemistry student can attest, virtually any fine material will burn when it is uniformly suspended in air because of the tremendous amount of surface area exposed. A pinch of powdered aluminum tossed in a fireplace will prove this. A handful of cornstarch squeezed from a squeeze bottle will do so even more spectacularly.

Grain dust explosions in grain silos and sawdust explosions in sawmill are more serious examples of this phenomenon.

The pyrotechnic devices fired into the old wood frame structure held by the davidians had started several fires, which were spreading rapidly. When the fire hit the fine CS material suspended in the air inside the building, the CS burned, releasing deadly hydrogen cyanide gas.

In less than a minute anyone in the vicinity was dead.
----------------------------

The fact that you were disturbed that they didn't use the tank on these civilians quite frankly disturbs me.
----------------------------

Too bad about the kids? They were KIDS for Christ sake! The "tax agents" killed them. The "tax agents" STARTED the siege after the standoff.

No child deserves to die by inhaling cyanide gas, which by the way can be proved that that is how they died.
----------------------------

The fact that you approve of the governments handling of this situation disturbs me. I considered, (till do, to an extent) you a reasonably intelligent person. These people did not deserve to die like they did.

However the handling of this situation was nothing short of a massacre. I almost want to compare it to something that Hitler would have done.

Reno was one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:10   #30
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
I'm afraid that we have to agree to disagree on this one buddy.

While the ATF may stand for alcohol, tobacco and firearms, they are NOT involved in tactical situations, nor is it thier job to do such things. That's why we have the FBI. The ATF is a tax agency, with the sole purpose of making arrests based on records, improper firearm regulations, etc. They have NO BUSINESS in cat suits with sub-machineguns.
Wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATFE or BATFE) is a law enforcement agency within the United States Department of Justice. Its responsibilities include enforcing certain federal laws, administering certain federal crime prevention programs, protecting the public and reducing violent crime.

The ATFE enforces Federal laws and regulations relating to alcohol, tobacco products, firearms, explosives, and arson.
Key words: law enforcement

As far as I know, they handed over to the FBI because of the FBI's greater resources, not because of jurisdiction. Believe it or not, these agencies co-operate on a regular basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
The ATF agents opened fire on the Davidians first, this, despite the link provided by furball, has been proven over the last few years.
Then lets see your counter-proof please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
The tanks were used to smash trhe lower floors of the building, despite government claims that they were "defensive only".
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Because the Davidians were heavily armed, including with .50 caliber guns with armor-piercing bullets, armored vehicles retrofitted with CS gas were used to protect the agents who were inserting the gas. Some of the gas was inserted via booms on CEVs (small tanks fitted with bulldozer blades). The booms punched holes in the outer walls of the building, but did not damage the interior wall, stairways, or other structural elements of the building. After more than four hours, no Davidians had left the building, so one of the CEVs attempted to drive through the gymnasium to clear a pathway to the central part of the building, but the gymnasium collapsed. No one was injured in the collapse; the gym was used for storage. Some additional structural damage also was caused when a CEV used its blade to open up the front doors, whch the Davidians had blocked with a piano. The CEV dragged debris out of the building and opened up an exit for Davidians who wanted to leave the compound and structural damage compromised a stairway.
Seems fairly acceptable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
It wasn't "bad luck" for the inhabitants, it was
A. the windiest day in the 6 week standoff.
B. the agents were firing pyrotechnic grenades into the house.
C. the fire helicopters were sent away.
and
D. the firetrucks were intentionally routedthrough the sherriffs office, and then held at the entrance of the property untilthe agents deemed it "safe for them to enter"

In other words, when everyone was dead.
The Branch Davidians were well-known to be ready to set fire to their own compound. Two of the fires were started well away from any CS grenades. Audio recordings show them planning fires on the day of the assult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
When the fire hit the fine CS material suspended in the air inside the building, the CS burned, releasing deadly hydrogen cyanide gas.

In less than a minute anyone in the vicinity was dead.
I blame their fires. Their fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Too bad about the kids? They were KIDS for Christ sake! The "tax agents" killed them. The "tax agents" STARTED the siege after the standoff.
I've already mentioned the "tax agents" thing earlier.

As for them being kids, their deaths are the fault of the Branch Davidians, not the ATF/FBI. It was they who chose to keep their children in a dangerous situation. The blood is on their hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
No child deserves to die by inhaling cyanide gas, which by the way can be proved that that is how they died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Autopsy photographs depicting bodies of other children locked in what appear to be spasmic death poses have been attributed by some to cyanide poisoning produced by burning CS gas. However, these poses can also be attributed to the classic post-mortem "boxer pose" all bodies caught in fires eventually assume, created as ligaments connecting bones together shorten as the fire dries them.
Bring me the proof.

As for dying by cyanide, I can think of worse ways to die. Instant, possibly painless (no-one's ever been able to tell us, unsuprisingly). Better than burning to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
The fact that you approve of the governments handling of this situation disturbs me. I considered, (till do, to an extent) you a reasonably intelligent person. These people did not deserve to die like they did.
My opinion of you hasn't changed. How fortunate

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
However the handling of this situation was nothing short of a massacre. I almost want to compare it to something that Hitler would have done.
Don't be an idiot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Reno was one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.
As opposed to, say, John Ashcroft?
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:14   #31
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Why were the atf there at all?
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:25   #32
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Wrong.

Key words: law enforcement

As far as I know, they handed over to the FBI because of the FBI's greater resources, not because of jurisdiction. Believe it or not, these agencies co-operate on a regular basis.


Then lets see your counter-proof please.



Seems fairly acceptable to me.


The Branch Davidians were well-known to be ready to set fire to their own compound. Two of the fires were started well away from any CS grenades. Audio recordings show them planning fires on the day of the assult.


I blame their fires. Their fault.


I've already mentioned the "tax agents" thing earlier.

As for them being kids, their deaths are the fault of the Branch Davidians, not the ATF/FBI. It was they who chose to keep their children in a dangerous situation. The blood is on their hands.



Bring me the proof.

As for dying by cyanide, I can think of worse ways to die. Instant, possibly painless (no-one's ever been able to tell us, unsuprisingly). Better than burning to death.


My opinion of you hasn't changed. How fortunate


Don't be an idiot.


As opposed to, say, John Ashcroft?
That entire post was directed at dda, not you furball. Hence the last paragraph of my post.

However, you ask for proof, here you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unintended Consequenses by John Ross
"Pathologists who later examined the charred corpses would find hydrogen cyanide in the burned bodies. Since hydrogen cyanide cannot be absorbed into a persons body after death, the pathologists would correctly conclude that many of the people trapped in the building , both children and adults, were already dying from inhaling poison gas by the time the flames finally consumed them.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:28   #33
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why were the atf there at all?
As the Wiki says, investigating firearm offences (i.e. illegal parts, etc). Whether this scale of operation was quite necessary is another matter.

As Bill Hicks said at the time, if they're investigating child abuse then why aren't the FBI smashing down Catholic Churches?
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:29   #34
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Re: Pensioner versus the Helicopters.
The ATF is to make minor arrests and issure subopeneas. Anything like this, they're required to hand jurisdiction to the FBI.

End of story. They shouldn't have been there.
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