Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

[cypher]

imo as i've said in various places zik is very badly tweaked, for example in a real round a big zik won't cap as much ships unless he gets very very very lucky.... and if he does he'll be accused of farming regardless.

a zik might cap roids indeed after attacking someone... but that's only after his fleet is decimated by hostile fire as he can't get around that. now ofcourse you can say it would be a very good thing to team up with a cathaar, but then again turn that around. can you name me 1 race that wouldn't be perfect when teamed up with a cathaar? even another cathaar and they'd be unstoppable... as it's simple the strongest thing out there... especcially for a team up. further as bashar said zik can't really be used for defence untill later when they capped loads of ships because be4 that they are useless.
All the comments about ziks having to be prepared to loose roids to cap ships, that's the most sure way to get a bad planet, as getting roids won't be that easy. chances of getting roids every day or every other day are slim to none once round gets going.
Further realistically how many people are actually wanna have zik def? i know i for sure wouldn't want to sacrifice my roids just so a zik gets some ships for it..

there is just no way to play a zik this round, unless you do it with shipfarming, alliance defwh0ring, cath attack partner on every attack to start with. which is in my opinion reason enough to say zik is a bad race this round and absolutely badly tweaked in the stats. Any race can take down a zik easily, zik can't take down anyone easily. surely you must see this aswell and see that it's plain wrong.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by cypher

imo as i've said in various places zik is very badly tweaked, for example in a real round a big zik won't cap as much ships unless he gets very very very lucky.... and if he does he'll be accused of farming regardless.

a zik might cap roids indeed after attacking someone... but that's only after his fleet is decimated by hostile fire as he can't get around that. now ofcourse you can say it would be a very good thing to team up with a cathaar, but then again turn that around. can you name me 1 race that wouldn't be perfect when teamed up with a cathaar? even another cathaar and they'd be unstoppable... as it's simple the strongest thing out there... especcially for a team up. further as bashar said zik can't really be used for defence untill later when they capped loads of ships because be4 that they are useless.
All the comments about ziks having to be prepared to loose roids to cap ships, that's the most sure way to get a bad planet, as getting roids won't be that easy. chances of getting roids every day or every other day are slim to none once round gets going.
Further realistically how many people are actually wanna have zik def? i know i for sure wouldn't want to sacrifice my roids just so a zik gets some ships for it..

there is just no way to play a zik this round, unless you do it with shipfarming, alliance defwh0ring, cath attack partner on every attack to start with. which is in my opinion reason enough to say zik is a bad race this round and absolutely badly tweaked in the stats. Any race can take down a zik easily, zik can't take down anyone easily. surely you must see this aswell and see that it's plain wrong.

I agree with ALL of this. Everyone is jumping up and down "Zik can steal again"! Well, what has been failed to be realized is that in the past, when Zik could steal, they also had things like 3 SHIP TARGETTING SHIPS. So there late init was made up for with their little small ships, being able to shoot at some point, the ships zik were weak against, rather it be init 2 or 3. In ex. the Corsair. A weak ship, but it did target 3 huge class ships. In a 1 ship targetting system, the steal factor just cannot work. TBH, the arguement that Ziks have to play knowing that they will be roided is ridiculous. The idea that Ziks NEED a partner is ridiculous. Since when do people land if they know the defence gets the best of thier ships? "Send ships in a Flt catch" I can recall like 4 flt catches last round (supposedly a high action rd). So i have only 4-6 oppourtunities at capping ships? "Sacrafice roids for ships" how silly is that. I really like the stats. I looked at the for about 3 or 4 days. Sadly, it is nearly impossible for them to be playable when there are at least 2 classes, one being CR, (prob will be most popular ship) that they cannot do ANYTHING to stop.
The only people who will choose Zik, are noobs, (I did as a noob, cause i thought it was cool to steal ships) cheats, and people who just want to try it out for the hell of it. I think RD 13 was a bad round to bring back stealing, as we are currently in a 1 ship targetting system.

[MAdnRisKy]

chika, you're wrong

in previous rounds when zik could steal that you'd remember, they didn't make a profit because they lost the steal ships.

Now they don't lose the ships that steal.

Do you see the difference?

[cypher]

so basically you are saying that people are gonna grow big early on and loose roids.

tbh usually most of the round i try and stay small so i can get good targets. it's called stockpiling... all the good players do it mostly... so again i don't see what's good about zik? you have bad ships and you have to attack worse planets :/

[Chika]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

chika, you're wrong

in previous rounds when zik could steal that you'd remember, they didn't make a profit because they lost the steal ships.

Now they don't lose the ships that steal.

Do you see the difference?

How am I wrong? DId you read what I wrote? My arguement wasn't even about profit. i do remember that they lost the steal ships. i also know that they don't now. How does any of what you wrote, coincide with what I wrote? You can't simply say your wrong, and your not even on topic.
Maybe you got happy because you thought you had a point.
hey, you don't.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Chika

I agree with ALL of this. Everyone is jumping up and down "Zik can steal again"! Well, what has been failed to be realized is that in the past, when Zik could steal, they also had things like 3 SHIP TARGETTING SHIPS.

And damage was lower, and the combat engine was more complex, and not every ship actually had 3 targets.

So there late init was made up for with their little small ships, being able to shoot at some point, the ships zik were weak against, rather it be init 2 or 3. In ex. the Corsair. A weak ship, but it did target 3 huge class ships.

It targeted CR/DE/FR, and fired last of all FI. It also didn't steal. You're comparing apples and oranges, and complaining that my apples don't taste like the oranges you used to get.

In a 1 ship targetting system, the steal factor just cannot work.

Yet you present no arguments in favor of this standpoint and you present no proof or evidence in support. I might as well say that in the 1 ship targeting system stealing is inherently broken unless it follows certain guidelines*!

TBH, the arguement that Ziks have to play knowing that they will be roided is ridiculous.

It's not an argument. It's an opinion. I happen to hold that all players should be willing to lose roids under the right conditions**. The reasons I state it loudly with Zik are multiple, for one, I don't want whiney sods coming during week 2-3 of the game wailing about their lost roids and how hard they got owned 'because zik suck and u r dum'. The second is that I think people need to realize that Zik are not what they were, not even remotely. You can play Zik and never lose a roid. You can probably do quite well, too.

The idea that Ziks NEED a partner is ridiculous.

I agree, the people who are spouting that bullshit should shut up.

Since when do people land if they know the defence gets the best of thier ships?

Since they get roids for it. I wouldn't sacrifice my whole fleet, but I'm entirely willing to let go of a portion for some roids that will repay within 10 days. Especially if they're high XP roids.

"Send ships in a Flt catch" I can recall like 4 flt catches last round (supposedly a high action rd). So i have only 4-6 oppourtunities at capping ships?

This offers a lot more incentive to perform fleetcatches.

"Sacrafice roids for ships" how silly is that. I really like the stats. I looked at the for about 3 or 4 days. Sadly, it is nearly impossible for them to be playable when there are at least 2 classes, one being CR, (prob will be most popular ship) that they cannot do ANYTHING to stop.

Three classes, not two. BS, CR and FI. And of them, FI are easily the one they have most trouble with; Cutlasses get fired on by the nastybad Vsh.

The only people who will choose Zik, are noobs, (I did as a noob, cause i thought it was cool to steal ships) cheats, and people who just want to try it out for the hell of it. I think RD 13 was a bad round to bring back stealing, as we are currently in a 1 ship targetting system.

I think you and the entire gang of 'omg zik suck' whiners are being close-minded, muddy-eyed and are trying to break the stats in favor of Zik. I've given up caring and anything else you bunch have to say on the matter is going to fall on dead ears. You've wasted your chance at getting me to listen, and at this point I don't care if we end up out-matched Zik because you couldn't present your arguments better. If anyone thinks they can convince me that Zik actually are more than just weak, weak to the point where it is unbalanced, they can present a well-formatted, grammatically correct, spell-checked post with a bullet list and sound logic. I'm not beyond reasoning, but I am beyond caring.

* Incidentally, that was my position when I started this stats set, but I've seen counterproof since.

** Axis_WLF agrees with me on this one (hahaha)

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Banned

Three classes, not two. BS, CR and FI. And of them, FI are easily the one they have most trouble with; Cutlasses get fired on by the nastybad Vsh.

And from what I have seen so far the bloody ziks are stealing every single fighter in game that exists so yes Vsh might target there poor lil cutlass but there collecting xan fighters like nobodys buisness

p.s Zik number 1 at the mo aint it? I know its only a beta and you will call me sort sighted etc... but still they are

[Cochese]

Funny that if ziks are so shite, the last few betas have been 'won' by Ziks.

They walk all over Xan with enough Co or even a moderate Frigate fleet, stealing your only anti-Frigate and anti-Cruiser ships.


If anyone is 'fked', it's Xan. Halfway through the round (if that) and the Fi attack fleet becomes a novelty.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by noah02

And from what I have seen so far the bloody ziks are stealing every single fighter in game that exists so yes Vsh might target there poor lil cutlass but there collecting xan fighters like nobodys buisness

That's because most Xan's don't have nearly enough Vsh to contend with a zik co fleet.

Probably because they're off spending resources on frigates...

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Cochese

That's because most Xan's don't have nearly enough Vsh to contend with a zik co fleet.

Probably because they're off spending resources on frigates...

And ziks are probably nicking them to

bloomin scouser race who would have thought.

[Banned]

Current #1 is a Zik, #2 is a Terran and #3 is an FI/Xan. While the Zik is 100k ahead, he is also 400k higher on value.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Banned

Current #1 is a Zik, #2 is a Terran and #3 is an FI/Xan. While the Zik is 100k ahead, he is also 400k higher on value.

another zik just went straight in at number 2 damnit

[Banned]

Originally Posted by noah02

another zik just went straight in at number 2 damnit

The number of large inactives means it's inevitable that Zik will pull away in the beta. I can foresee mega nerfs for Zik in speed games.

[cypher]

as has been said be4 you can not in any way compare zik stealing like this in a real round and in a speedround, as jester just pointed out.

[Proxi]

My main concern with the stats as they stand is that no xan are spending* money on their frigs. This is of course due to the amount of roaches about in cr attack fleets.

As it stands, there isn't really an effective solution for an all Cr fleet that stops roids being capped.

Something needs to be done about this imo, as xans only decent fleet is its fi, which gets shagged hard without much def (beetles?)

So in summary, the cath def for both xan roiding fleets is so effective that its nigh on impossible to outflak, and if you do, be prepared for horrendus losses.
Xan fi also arn't that hot res expenditure wise for what you get against other races aswell. They need a bit more power behind them imo, or some targetting/type changes.**


* Read: wasting
** Like roach to normal, and a high init but decent power.[/edit on further thought this is probably a crap idea, if i think of an alternative ill post it]

[Cochese]

Pulsar targetting from DE to CR?

[Banned]

Originally Posted by veX

My main concern with the stats as they stand is that no xan are spending* money on their frigs. This is of course due to the amount of roaches about in cr attack fleets.

As it stands, there isn't really an effective solution for an all Cr fleet that stops roids being capped.

You're wrong.

[Banned]

Proposed release candidate 3 (final release):

1) Drop Harpy armor from 18 to 15 (43)
2) Increase Pulsar armor from 4 to 5 (44)
3) Increase Dagger armor from 9 to 10 (49)
4) Increase Sabre armor from 55 to 60 (48)

I'm not terribly attached to the Harpy armor change, but I do feel that Xan have a problem* that the armor adjustments help solve. This makes it more feasible to flak through on a Cath**, without making it ridiculously easy and cheap. Please give feedback on this, if I don't see any I'm going to have another look at it in the morning and see if that crack I smoked influenced this a bit much.

*I'm going to go into a long rant about this problem later so it'll hopefully be fixed for round 14.

**There was an issue there. Edit: And thanks to veX for bringing it to my attention. See, I was wrong and he was right.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Banned

And damage was lower, and the combat engine was more complex, and not every ship actually had 3 targets.

It targeted CR/DE/FR, and fired last of all FI. It also didn't steal. You're comparing apples and oranges, and complaining that my apples don't taste like the oranges you used to get.

Yet you present no arguments in favor of this standpoint and you present no proof or evidence in support. I might as well say that in the 1 ship targeting system stealing is inherently broken unless it follows certain guidelines*!

It's not an argument. It's an opinion. I happen to hold that all players should be willing to lose roids under the right conditions**. The reasons I state it loudly with Zik are multiple, for one, I don't want whiney sods coming during week 2-3 of the game wailing about their lost roids and how hard they got owned 'because zik suck and u r dum'. The second is that I think people need to realize that Zik are not what they were, not even remotely. You can play Zik and never lose a roid. You can probably do quite well, too.

I agree, the people who are spouting that bullshit should shut up.

Since they get roids for it. I wouldn't sacrifice my whole fleet, but I'm entirely willing to let go of a portion for some roids that will repay within 10 days. Especially if they're high XP roids.

This offers a lot more incentive to perform fleetcatches.

Three classes, not two. BS, CR and FI. And of them, FI are easily the one they have most trouble with; Cutlasses get fired on by the nastybad Vsh.

I think you and the entire gang of 'omg zik suck' whiners are being close-minded, muddy-eyed and are trying to break the stats in favor of Zik. I've given up caring and anything else you bunch have to say on the matter is going to fall on dead ears. You've wasted your chance at getting me to listen, and at this point I don't care if we end up out-matched Zik because you couldn't present your arguments better. If anyone thinks they can convince me that Zik actually are more than just weak, weak to the point where it is unbalanced, they can present a well-formatted, grammatically correct, spell-checked post with a bullet list and sound logic. I'm not beyond reasoning, but I am beyond caring.

* Incidentally, that was my position when I started this stats set, but I've seen counterproof since.

** Axis_WLF agrees with me on this one (hahaha)

I know its hard for you to admit that a flaw is in your work. There is one.
Your not perfect.
Sadly, just because someone CBA to give YOU, a typed up statement, spell check etc, it does not mean thier wrong.
It does mean that they put less thought into it than you, but it doesn't mean their wrong. I have no problem with the stats the way they are, I do think Zik suck though.
Frankly, my entire point is I hate to see one race dominate the top 100. I think every race should have a good chance to do well.
We can go back and forth all day. Make Ziks Own. make Ziks suck, I will still play the stats better than most people anyway. I am arguing for BALANCE, not for Ziks being good so I can play them and win.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Chika

I am arguing for BALANCE

No, you're not.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Banned

No, you're not.

Yes I am. How well the universe is BALANCED, determines if your stats are a faliure or not. I hate PA's concept of "We ****ed up this round, will fix it next round".
What do you think my motives are? DO you think I want to sabotage the game? My motives are of positive nature sir. At this point its only an opinion anyway, I don't expect you to be able to fix the problem in such a short time anyway. At this point its opinion. I think Ziks suck. Last time I checked I was entitled to an opinion.

[Iceman]

zik is meant to be the hardest race to play... if you think theyre stats are bad then dont go them.
all those who want to go zik this round say aye
i personally would not put up with the complications and headaches of zik whether they were stealing or subbing.

remember at the end of the day there are 3 other races

[Iceman]

and good work banned i have yet to match your ability to pay people out as well / often as you do

[demiGOD]

What's discombobulating is 7 of the T10 are Ziks at beta tick 415, about almost an hour left into the game. I know we're not supposed to fully pre-judge a real round with real-time ticks based on beta reports and results, but still they make you think into them.

[Kal]

ziks have it easier in non-serious rounds than serious rounds

[Byrney]

Originally Posted by Chika

Sadly, it is nearly impossible for them to be playable when there are at least 2 classes, one being CR, (prob will be most popular ship) that they cannot do ANYTHING to stop.

This is definately not the case. The corsair is a 100% viable counter vs cruisers. Even against tarantulas they will win unless against a much bigger fleet. In beta atm most ziks have about 1/4 - 1/3 of res in corsairs and with this they can easily hold there own against caths around there size.

Also both of ziks fleets can be good vs xan. The co fleet although taking heavy losses can accumulate a nice xan fi fleet which can be used for ally defence or attacking other races. The zik fr fleet is better than the co fleet against xan. Xans will not build a lot of arrows whereas I would guess a lot of ziks will focus heavily on frigs. This will mean that ziks can steal a lot of xan co and fr ships. Or if all else fails just take free roids. All this assumes ofc no defence which obviously isn't likely too often but that is the same for every race.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Byrney

This is definately not the case. The corsair is a 100% viable counter vs cruisers. Even against tarantulas they will win unless against a much bigger fleet. In beta atm most ziks have about 1/4 - 1/3 of res in corsairs and with this they can easily hold there own against caths around there size.

Irrelevant. Chika is actually correct. The simple fact is that a cruiser fleet consisting of only pods, and only as many pods as are needed to get full cap, will get through unless there is defence. Yes, the cruiser pods get stolen, but they do fire, so you can send a pure pod fleet and get very cheap roids.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Chika

Yes I am. How well the universe is BALANCED, determines if your stats are a faliure or not.

I disagree with this. I think you'll actually find that the combat engine determines it also. The current combat engine in its over-simplified form means that pursuing balanced stats is like pursuing perfection in real life; as soon as you get one bit balanced to another, you bugger something else up.

The combat enginge has been designed to have a complex race structure, and a simple statistic structure. They are not compatible. I don't think jester could have done much else with the stats, as the combat engine has severely restricted the statistical potential of the game.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by Kal

ziks have it easier in non-serious rounds than serious rounds

I beg to differ, in the real round, alliances play a much bigger part, and therefore so will ziks piggybacking with cath alliance mates... it could be a race to see which alliance can give their zik(s) the highest score

[Byrney]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Irrelevant. Chika is actually correct. The simple fact is that a cruiser fleet consisting of only pods, and only as many pods as are needed to get full cap, will get through unless there is defence. Yes, the cruiser pods get stolen, but they do fire, so you can send a pure pod fleet and get very cheap roids.

This is the case for fi and bs as well as just cr. Chika seemed to be arguing that zik were especially weak against cr whereas they are just the same again fi and bs. Zik are slightly worse against cr than against bs but are even worse again against pod only fi fleets due to the cutlass crappy dam/cost. Stealing the cath cr pods is not a bad thing anyway as these can be sent to attack a cath with few scarabs for a similar number of roids and no losses or to another zik to regain roids and gain xp.

The corsair is also a very useful ship in attacks against cath as well. The tarantula is so bad in terms of actually killing things that fake fr fleets containing corsair and maybe daggers if you managed to steal any work very well against caths of similar size. Admittedly this would be hard to do because of numbers but if done well could steal a lot of cath cr (having done this in beta I know how effective attacking cath with corsairs can be). Even just sending a genuine frig roiding fleet with corsairs alongside works well as there is likely to be only anti-fr defence sent anyway and if this defence is not xan or terran then you either get cheap cath cr or cheap roids due to cath sending roaches away to save them (or both if they have tula and leave them home)

If there is any obvious flaw please point it out . Bare in mind I am probably going to go either cath or zik so either way I don't mind what happens to zik ships (although if they make zik any more powerful that may sway me toward them)

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Byrney

This is the case for fi and bs as well as just cr. Chika seemed to be arguing that zik were especially weak against cr whereas they are just the same again fi and bs.

Below is the quote of chika that YOU quoted. It is quite clear to me what it means, but I have put some bold/underline/itallic in to make it clearer.

Originally Posted by Chika

Sadly, it is nearly impossible for them to be playable when there are at least 2 classes, one being CR, (prob will be most popular ship) that they cannot do ANYTHING to stop.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Byrney

Even just sending a genuine frig roiding fleet with corsairs alongside works well as there is likely to be only anti-fr defence sent anyway

Ummm, to me, this would be like having a big flashing neon sign saying "Someone else should be organising defence!".

Originally Posted by Byrney

and if this defence is not xan or terran then you either get cheap cath cr or cheap roids due to cath sending roaches away to save them (or both if they have tula and leave them home)

Surely cath defence that froze all ships would also prevent cheap roids/ships, as you don't use half-arsed cath fleets in defence, it's what's known as asking to be roided, and always has been, so what you are basically saying is that "If the defence is Zik", which we all know is pretty shit for defence due to initiative, and is not something that shows a great attacking strategy.

[Byrney]

OK I did mis-interpret/read that post but the point is that zik aren't as bad as chika is making out. Some ziks would love it if people just sent pod only fleets at them, especially soon after jgps come out as it would be an easy way for them to get a more diverse fleet.

Also as cath I would be looking to roid xan far more than zik as you can get free roids easily rather than cheapish roids, although that is slightly off the point.

The point still holds that corsairs are a good ship for attacking cath with and if used effectively can help ensure some very nice cr stealing. Also the zik frigate fleet is a great fleet against xans who build even a small amount of frigs. Arrows just can't cope with what ziks can send if they focus on fr fleets. A zik frig fleet can steal around 50-60% of a xans co/fr if the xan is of a similar size. The xan is also forced to keep arrows home if they want to cause any damage, which means that these are always available to steal even if the rest of the fleet is sent away. If a zik can do this effectively maybe just 2 or 3 times early/mid way through the round then they have a fleet that can target everything except battleships with just one ship class, that isn't something I personally would want to be attacked with.

[Byrney]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Surely cath defence that froze all ships would also prevent cheap roids/ships, as you don't use half-arsed cath fleets in defence, it's what's known as asking to be roided, and always has been, so what you are basically saying is that "If the defence is Zik", which we all know is pretty #### for defence due to initiative, and is not something that shows a great attacking strategy.

This has caused me to notice something I haven't noticed before when looking at stats, cathaar have no ships that can be used as ally anti-fr defence.

Leaving that aside if a cath defends in gal it is most likely to be with only roaches if you did the attack well and this leaves all the corsairs unstunned with a lot of cruisers available to be stolen.

[Bashar]

How many times do you attack people, and manage to land on them without them having defence and they have kept their fleet home? Especially ships that are useless for targetting the incomming, and would get targetted by it? What you are saying all relies on that happening, and it is extremely unlikely to happen unless you are attacking small planets.

And also, I would most definitely not love it if people sent pod only fleets at me when I was zik. Yeah, it gives you a more diverse fleet, of course it does, but it also gives you 25% less roids, and as such less ability to grow, and when you only cap say, cruiser pods, then your cr attack fleet is useless against anything other than someone with a really bad fleet or another zik, as ziks cruiser targets de only, and is a stealer, and is not a ship that is likely to be around in large quantities, and it doesn't provide you with a multitude of attacking options.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Banned

Proposed release candidate 3 (final release):

1) Drop Harpy armor from 18 to 15 (43)
2) Increase Pulsar armor from 4 to 5 (44)
3) Increase Dagger armor from 9 to 10 (49)
4) Increase Sabre armor from 55 to 60 (48)

This has been made rc3, which I'm going to go ahead and call final.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Bashar

The simple fact is that a cruiser fleet consisting of only pods, and only as many pods as are needed to get full cap, will get through unless there is defence. Yes, the cruiser pods get stolen, but they do fire, so you can send a pure pod fleet and get very cheap roids.

you know you are absloutely right, if they get no defence you cap max roids... but um hang on isnt that what we all aim for in any other attack? only generally speaking we dont aim to loose our entire fleet for the roids. Yeah it is cheap but if someone attacks you with 50 cr pods its quite easy to get defence that will cover it...

[Bashar]

Depends on how many other people are needing defence, and how much is available.

[Chika]

There are decenct points from both sides, but the point is, early, if you can get through on a Zik and cap roids, it may be benificial to the Zik, as he can steal your ships. But late, you can afford to lose 150 cr if your capping 600 roids off of someone that you will get HUGE xp from.
The only thing I can say to support the current set-up is, that Ziks traditionally supposed to be a non-noob race. The way they currenly are, noobs can't play them. WHy? because if they are in a sub-par alliance, they can't defend themselves. I think we should make this clear at signup so we won't have noobs choosing Ziks, and then quitting.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Problems regarding Ziks stealing occuring after roid cap, and associated 'winners bonus'.

The thing that keep springing to my mind as i am reading, that that a Zik's stealers do not have any impact on the battle that tick.

Perhaps re-introducing multiple tick (ie two or three - two for the sake of argument) battles would go a long way to resolve this problem.

Take, for example, the Pod Only type attack (assuming no defence etc) - the current problem with this is that the attacker caps their roids, and then the zik can steal the pods. By having a 2 tick battle, the attacker would be forgoing an extra tick's worth of roids for no losses.

Now, obviously, sending two fleets is going to go a long way to retaining the status quo. but that's an extra fleet than it takes now . This 'solution' has greater impact in a more conventional battle - where the attacker has the choice of taking fewer roids (cheaper), or more roids at a higher price.



Mind you, i havent given this much thought. Watcha reckon, Bashar?

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Bashar

How many times do you attack people, and manage to land on them without them having defence and they have kept their fleet home? Especially ships that are useless for targetting the incomming, and would get targetted by it? What you are saying all relies on that happening, and it is extremely unlikely to happen unless you are attacking small planets.

And also, I would most definitely not love it if people sent pod only fleets at me when I was zik. Yeah, it gives you a more diverse fleet, of course it does, but it also gives you 25% less roids, and as such less ability to grow, and when you only cap say, cruiser pods, then your cr attack fleet is useless against anything other than someone with a really bad fleet or another zik, as ziks cruiser targets de only, and is a stealer, and is not a ship that is likely to be around in large quantities, and it doesn't provide you with a multitude of attacking options.

Hehehe - use all the pods suicided on you to suicide on other ziks :P

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Hehehe - use all the pods suicided on you to suicide on other ziks :P

yah obvoiusly i was waiting for someone to suggest that... but i thought it'd spark more complaints...

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Take, for example, the Pod Only type attack (assuming no defence etc) - the current problem with this is that the attacker caps their roids, and then the zik can steal the pods. By having a 2 tick battle, the attacker would be forgoing an extra tick's worth of roids for no losses.

so you want PA to bring back the multiple tick attack, sounds okay, i liked it more that way once upon a time, but you'd have to make it cap 15% roids per tick or something. this way cath couldnt roid as well on zik cause theyd only cap 15 percent, then loose their ships, as opposed to attacking normally which would cap 27.75% (15% + 12.75%)

normally id say this was worse than the current system but considering the way zik stealing works now i think it would dry alot of eyes (not pointing any fingers)

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Iceman

but you'd have to make it cap 15% roids per tick or something. this way cath couldnt roid as well on zik cause theyd only cap 15 percent, then loose their ships, as opposed to attacking normally which would cap 27.75% (15% + 12.75%)

Obviously , roid cap and salvage formulae would need to be adjusted to keep in line with the additional ticks of combat.

Mind you, again presuming that there were two ticks - you could have a 10% cap in tick 1 and a 20% cap in tick 2 (though this cap would be about 28%) - making staying for the second tick fare more valuable, in addition to reducing the sheer free gain initially.

Mind you, this would have some far ranging implications for all battles, and might make the game a little less 'fair' on the attackers side (who may have to recall after 1 tick of combat). But i do think it is an area worth exploring, solely because it hasnt been before .

[Iceman]

yeah i think the stealing system definitly calls for some kind of change like this in the combat engine

[furball]

No, it doesn't. Bringing back multi-tick combat would destroy everything PA has worked towards since PaX, culminating in a very successful r12.

Ziks just have to be able to accept that they might have to lose roids when attacked, if they don't get defence; in return, they get those powerful pods which they can then roid with. If you can't deal with that...don't go Zik! I don't see why it has to be a problem, it creates the opportunity to have very large roiding fleets of other races, e.g. in beta I had one of the biggest Xan fi fleets (vsh/daggers) compared to even other Xans. Sure, I lost roids, but got them all back fine, with the new ships intact.

I refuse to accept that we need multi-tick combat back, it might solve a minor problem but it throws up scores of other, major problems.

[The Seal]

/me wubs the new zik. I'll steal your ships and you can have my roids

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Iceman

yeah i think the stealing system definitly calls for some kind of change like this in the combat engine

I think the combat system calls for some kind of change in the combat engine...

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Nonentity

I refuse to accept that we need multi-tick combat back, it might solve a minor problem but it throws up scores of other, major problems.

actually thats true...

Originally Posted by Banned

I think the combat system calls for some kind of change in the combat engine...

can you expand?

[Tietäjä]

Cathaars just give so much back to zikonian friends. In every aspect everything in this game requires cooperation to actually pull through, and the facts stand that nobody can make an invinsible fleet composition: there'll always be a way to rush through. Cathaar cruisers will have issues with heavy zikonian and xandathrii fighter fleets, xandathrii will have issues with cathaar cruiser fleets, whatsoever.

Zikonians just have a few more issues than the others. But the issue of a flung of freebie cathaar pods, well, here you just need some scarabs to defend yourself. Either the attacker will plunge through and cap a small amount of roids with the possibly unfrozen ships, and you'll swallow a medium amount of cathaar cruiser pods to add to your marauders (which, by the way, make fun for the cathaars around), or then the attacker steers out. Then there's fleetcatches, possible missed pulls, and people who are too stubborn to move their fleet out of the way.

Additionally, zikonian attacking, can, basically, rush through taking quite a lot of losses from hostile fire (hence even allowing running over defences), and still end up in the same ranks as some other race roiding could end with taking just a little losses: the stealing compensates for a lot (yes, I ran through several xandathriis with vsharracks in beta, and I ran over people with defences), and additionally, by running over you can make changes in your fleet structure. And believe me, there will be people who rigidly refuse to run, and want to inflict damage, and there will be half-witted defence calls.

If we take the assumption that a target always gets defences we can all just forget cr fleets because of the "huge" armor they have. A corsair can punch an amount of holes to a roach equal to it's value, and roids easily become quite expensive. Freebie raids shouldn't be difficult to cover unless your alliance has gazillion zikonians; I don't think there will be too many freebie raids

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Chika

To understand me. Look at the stats with simplicity, don't look at all that armor cost stuff Look at the Race, what it has to offer, and then look at how each race can stop them. Defence from ally against Fi is futile, unless its another Xan. THUS making Xan a heavily choosen race, thus an "F" mark in the stats category, because we will have another "Most of top 100 is one Race" round.

There's a very interesting point buried here that it took me about 1000 ticks to understand.

Incidentally, I think I know exactly where the stats 'went wrong*', and Chika touches upon it here.

* I consider there to be problems, inbalances etc, but it's been a fun round for some.