We are fast becoming a nation of heathens and bastards

[Kurashima]

Births "out of wedlock" up to 42%

[MrL_JaKiri]

It's entirely due to Glaswegians.

[Nodrog]

An utterly meaningless figure since it doesnt distinguish between children born to single parents, and children born to couples in long term relationships who just dont happen to married for whatever reason.

[Gimmick]

Dont alot of people have kids and just not get married, then a few years down the line when they feel like it they get married. I agree with nod its a pretty useless figure just shows that the old thing about having children out of marriage is no longer a big thing.

[Yahwe]

bastards!

[Dante Hicks]

As a bastard and a heathen, I salute this trend.

[Kurashima]

Its more of a reflection on the modern feeling towards the institute of marriage. Its not really saying that less people are having children as part of a partnership, its simply reinforcing that the doctrines of the early 20th century have all but fallen by the wayside, and marriage is no longer a necessity to raise a family.

In short, its become socially acceptable to "Live in Sin" , which to me shows the waning power of the Church in all its forms in modern day society.

This doesnt actually mean I agree with the philosophy of the church, far from it, but its an interesting statistic nonetheless.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

Its more of a reflection on the modern feeling towards the institute of marriage. Its not really saying that less people are having children as part of a partnership, its simply reinforcing that the doctrines of the early 20th century have all but fallen by the wayside, and marriage is no longer a necessity to raise a family.

And again, this tells us nothing. There are two very different ways in which marriage could be considered no longer necessary; either because of a general trend away from wanting to live and raise children in a nuclear family environment, or a trend away from the need to get a government/religious 'stamp' on your long-term relationship. These things (very) roughly correspond to single-parents vs unmarried-couples-raising-children, and they are very different. Nothing is gained from amalgamating them together in a statistic.

[queball]

This slippery slope started when they outlawed wife-beating.

[Gimmick]

Originally Posted by queball

This slippery slope started when they outlawed wife-beating.

thats outlawed

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

As a bastard and a heathen, I salute this trend.

[Kurashima]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

And again, this tells us nothing. There are two very different ways in which marriage could be considered no longer necessary; either because of a general trend away from wanting to live and raise children in a nuclear family environment, or a trend away from the need to get a government/religious 'stamp' on your long-term relationship. These things (very) roughly correspond to single-parents vs unmarried-couples-raising-children, and they are very different. Nothing is gained from amalgamating them together in a statistic.

Youre forgetting Nod that until around the 1900's , the government and the church intercombined so much that youd be unable to differentiate. The fact theyre now so very poles apart again just reflects the waning of the church as an institute.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

And again, this tells us nothing. There are two very different ways in which marriage could be considered no longer necessary; either because of a general trend away from wanting to live and raise children in a nuclear family environment, or a trend away from the need to get a government/religious 'stamp' on your long-term relationship. These things (very) roughly correspond to single-parents vs unmarried-couples-raising-children, and they are very different. Nothing is gained from amalgamating them together in a statistic.

your argument appears to be:

because you can make even finer distinction within this category this statistic is useless

It's pretty fatuous to claim it tells us nothing. Even if you would prefer some more information.

[_RATM_]

Contrary to Nodrog's statement that the statistic is worth utter shit, it can open a debate.

Through this tendency of people not wanting to get married (I know not if this wedlock is just out of church weddings or civil unions) we can pose a few questions... Sadly, we'd need more statistics.

How much money are the said people making, are weddings just too damned expensive? Or do people actually just coudln't care less.
How many % of these people get married after five years of having a child?
How many are actually alone after the first year of the childs birth?

Sadly it IS true that the statistic shows nothing *much*, but only because it isn't used with other statistics that might be helpful. But with other statistics in hand we could figure out if people were irresponsible, didn't care for marriage, eventually got married, weren't in a financial situation to get married and never will be, etc.

I do believe that getting married and having a big celebration is just way too fkin expensive. And signing a contract can betedious if you divorce.

Edit: I always knew the brits were a bunch of bastards. What I didn't know, however, were that the French were more bastardly than the english, and that the swedish were the biggest bastards of all!

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

your argument appears to be:

because you can make even finer distinction within this category this statistic is useless

It's pretty fatuous to claim it tells us nothing. Even if you would prefer some more information.

"The combined number of black people and paedophiles in Britain has increased by 150% over the last 10 years"

"Research has shown a decline in the total number of fatalities caused by car accidents and heroin"

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

As a bastard and a heathen, I salute this trend.

[Paisley]

Looks like Shotgun weddings are on the out.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

"The combined number of black people and paedophiles in Britain has increased by 150% over the last 10 years"

"Research has shown a decline in the total number of fatalities caused by car accidents and heroin"

1) in this instance the 'two factors' you believe ought to be differentiated between are not so wildly different.

2) once again I would point out that although your strawmen statements are outlandish, they are not totally useless.

[Kurashima]

If Nod , I was to balance this statement with, say, figures on the declining numbers going to Church on a Sunday, would that make the argument more compelling, or would you again simply pick two random, unconnected statistics and attempt to show them as being relevant when in fact, theyre just absoloute bollocks?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

If Nod , I was to balance this statement with, say, figures on the declining numbers going to Church on a Sunday, would that make the argument more compelling, or would you again simply pick two random, unconnected statistics and attempt to show them as being relevant when in fact, theyre just absoloute bollocks?

If you were trying to make an argument for the decline of religion in Britain, then the number of births outside marriage would be a strange statistic to use - the number of marriages would be a better choice, perhaps along with the %age of people in long term relationships who wish to get an official religious/legal stamp. The 'children out of wedlock' statistic could be used as part of this arguement, but the main use that a statistic like this will be put to is either discussing the rise of single mothers, or the deline of the nuclear family (this is the angle I believe most newspapers took when reported it). And for these purposes, it is worthless for the reasons I mentioned above.

To be honest, this statistic is even worse than the 2 'strawmen' I mentioned above, since at least they wore their worthlessness on their sleeve, whereas this one can actually be used to prop up (bad) arguments about moral decline or what have you.

[_RATM_]

Statistics don't just say something, they beg questions along with them.
Obviously kids born out of wedlock means that the mother isn't in marriage which normaly means the is a 'single' parent. Although we do not know this. And besides, this statistics begs the question as to why there are so many children born out of wedlock.

But clearly this means it's all useless, because. !

[JonnyBGood]

The office of statistics must really be the most useless idea in history.

[_RATM_]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The office of statistics must really be the most useless idea in history.

I don't believe so. Statistics and census' I believe are a great tool for historians and sociologists. Although I agree some have no pertinence whatsoever, imagine if we had the complete statistics of everythign since 4 000 B.C., it would make the writing of history a lot easier, instead of having to guess.

Statistics have an interesting way of confirming or explaining a reason / event. I've used statscan.ca quite a bit because it is interesting to see the demographic change in language of french colonial settlemens and their modern day location being the most english places you can get to.

Either way it depends what you want to do with them. I can't expect the average joe to give a rats ass.

[demiGOD]

Actually, people have been more intelligent to realize that there is no incentive and no gain for being married.

[_RATM_]

I woudln't say 'intelligence' is a factor in marriage. I would believe that people are moving away from tradition in our consumer world.

Oh my, I pulled another commie.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The office of statistics must really be the most useless idea in history.

I believe it was recently voted the fourth useless.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by _RATM_

I don't believe so. Statistics and census' I believe are a great tool for historians and sociologists.

There's much more immediate uses of statistics when it comes to planning and provisioning of government expenditure and services.

[_RATM_]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

There's much more immediate uses of statistics when it comes to planning and provisioning of government expenditure and services.

This is also true.
But I'm just relating what I use statistics for.

[Yahwe]

I could relate what I think you should use a pineapple for but I doubt you'd like it.

[Kurashima]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

I could relate what I think you should use a pineapple for but I doubt you'd like it.

Im thinking young Dace would like it even less.