Beta r47

[MiX]

Originally Posted by Monroe

A few changes:
Phoenix init to 5
Reverent init to 6
This change allows ter FI to hit xan, but xan FI to no longer hit xan... if xans are willing to spend resources on DE.

Widow now only targets CR
Viper T2 moved to Co and no T3.
cath had too much anti DE

Vshraak T2 and T3 swapped to make it more viable against CR

Those are good changes towards making the Fi fleets more balanced, next would be Fr/De. They are not playable attack classes with the current stats. There is no Fr/De ship that can win against Fi class defense, that makes those classes unplayable as attack fleets.

[Tiamat101]

But has been proven over many rounds a ship with low d/c and high init and T1 lose to a ship with High d/c and lower init T2.

So when I look at Ter it doesnt matter what there init's are they could all be init 1 and there 250 d/c means they need atleast 2:1 in value to kill. And Init 31 steal ships atleast for ****s sakes make them good. Zik atleast 450+ D/c On steal xan 400+ atleast. Ter atleast 350+ Cath atleast 150% t1 eff. If you dont have those things then you either have to reduce A/c's to match or you have increase the d/c because right now there is no point to testing a set of stats where the costs and ratios arent right.

[Shev]

Given you can't even analyze the stats you made yourself to the point of working out what fleets would be played, why not look at the aspects that have had feedback requested rather than waste time whining about something that hasn't been worked through yet.

[Plaguuu]

The stats that are out now, I cant imagine them being anything than 5 minute of sparetime to just get em going. If theese infact are the stats that the game will have it will clearly be the worst stats ever. And the ones tia had set up was 10x better.

Who is doing them ?

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

But has been proven over many rounds a ship with low d/c and high init and T1 lose to a ship with High d/c and lower init T2.

So when I look at Ter it doesnt matter what there init's are they could all be init 1 and there 250 d/c means they need atleast 2:1 in value to kill. And Init 31 steal ships atleast for ****s sakes make them good. Zik atleast 450+ D/c On steal xan 400+ atleast. Ter atleast 350+ Cath atleast 150% t1 eff. If you dont have those things then you either have to reduce A/c's to match or you have increase the d/c because right now there is no point to testing a set of stats where the costs and ratios arent right.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. Notice how no one else has any trouble suggesting changes, even with A/C and D/C clearly unfinished. Pretend they are reasonably OK and move on.

Originally Posted by Plaguuu

The stats that are out now, I cant imagine them being anything than 5 minute of sparetime to just get em going. If theese infact are the stats that the game will have it will clearly be the worst stats ever. And the ones tia had set up was 10x better.

Are you suffering from the same ailment that Tiamat is?

Originally Posted by Plaguuu

Who is doing them ?

Monroe.

[Monroe]

Originally Posted by Plaguuu

The stats that are out now, I cant imagine them being anything than 5 minute of sparetime to just get em going. If theese infact are the stats that the game will have it will clearly be the worst stats ever. And the ones tia had set up was 10x better.

Who is doing them ?

Can you please elaborate on why you feel these are the worst stats ever? Just stating this without any suggestions on how to improve them just sounds like meaningless trolling to me and is against the policy of this forum. You are welcome to hate these stats with a passion, but please include some logic in your contributions or I will simply delete your posts, thanks.

[Plaguuu]

Oki looked over them and there prolly have been some changes since I first saw them a few days back, so maybe worst stats in history was abit over the top

terran ships 250 dc, and not massive armor.
corsair and tycoon steals after pods have landed
widow(single target offclass), tarantula(st), pillager(off clasS) horrible emp effiency
xan has no anti cr until hulls3(and we all know how slow their research is)
clipper 185/162 ac dc
dont like the targetting of juggernaut as it only use is to hit your own race.
pirate is way to good compared to other ships(3 targets, pod class, and about the best dc you get this round)
cath 3x anti fr t1 / 0x anti co t1 (would be nice to have maybe swap some of that so you dont get 2 much cath on cath action)

Basicly terran looks awful as they cant take on a enemy solo without losses, and their armor is high but not high enough to validate picking them for flakking purposes

I like what you have done with the dc of sk's tho as I guess you would actually have to invest in quite some to destroy max amount of buildings now, but I still like the idea of not giving every race a sk

[Killeah]

Change:

Vsh - Emp ship instead of cloak - change init from 7 to 3 (possible 4 to let CR cath emp fire first)

Pillager - cloak ship instead of emp - change init from 7 to 5

Motivation:

FR/DE needs attack options into FI/CO (more than cath/zik) - with vsh being emp, green calcs are possible without too much hazzle

Pillager will be late init on def, but cloaked and paired with CO cath def usable to cover fi attks green, or moderately alone (depending on amount of bansh/harp in attk fleet.

Overall:

Will increase attack options for fr/de into two more races (xan/ter) - and still keep the defensive option intact without too much overvalue needed.

[Killeah]

Originally Posted by Plaguuu

Basicly terran looks awful as they cant take on a enemy solo without losses, and their armor is high but not high enough to validate picking them for flakking purposes

Are you looking at the same stats that I am???

Ter FI can attack every single race - without a single ship lost.

- and yes I look at init and target - and not a/c - d/c , as those numbers are debated 2nd in line, three times already.

Sorry , but you need to get your head right and read the posts

[Monroe]

Plaguuu, you clearly haven't read the entire thread (not that I blame you) I haven't done A/C and D/C yet, so yes they are in need of some serious consideration!

Killeah, these are interesting suggestions, let me think about them some and I may implement them later today.

[Monroe]

A couple of updates:
Spectre is now normal rather than cloaked, this is because it is a 0 loss def ship, and to balance things it should not be fakeable. This was in Zaejii's original stats this way, but I thought it was a typo, sorry Zaejii, makes sense now!

[MiX]

Id suggest making Tarantula lower init than Guardian. Atm Etd BS is pretty much unstoppable if you mass guardians. Tarantula EMPing guarding first and thus preventing it from firing would make more defense options viable.

[Influence]

Originally Posted by Monroe

A couple of updates:
Spectre is now normal rather than cloaked, this is because it is a 0 loss def ship, and to balance things it should not be fakeable. This was in Zaejii's original stats this way, but I thought it was a typo, sorry Zaejii, makes sense now!

how is Spectre a 0 loss def ship with both thief(T2) and pirate(T3) targetting it? (not that i am against the change to normal, but given the fact it is xans only anti CR and hull 3, like someone mentioned before that is enough, if not it's effectivity should just be lowered dramatically).

[Monroe]

Spectre FR targeting has been dropped so now it only targets CR as a T1.

Peg has gone to init 4 and no T2
to allow it to deal with ter FI

Pillager is now cloaked, init 5, damage 16, to allow it to deal with CO, but leave etd open to FI attack

Vsh is now emp, init 4, target FI/CO to make etd DE viable.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Influence

how is Spectre a 0 loss def ship with both thief(T2) and pirate(T3) targetting it? (not that i am against the change to normal, but given the fact it is xans only anti CR and hull 3, like someone mentioned before that is enough, if not it's effectivity should just be lowered dramatically).

I think he meant that because its a defence only ship the only thing it will be defending against is CR and it t1 hit CR. The only CR ship that targets it is Pirates and they only steal, so it will be a good deterant for them. I agree with Monroe that making it a 'Normal' ship evens out its opped CR deffing as CR is a very viable starting fleet. If xans can 3 fleet 'fake def' Specters then that will kill CR later on and thats not what we want this round.

[Zaejii]

For knowing (and those who aren't signed up on beta): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?

[Tiamat101]

So... you want to make defensive stats again.... Well ST is suppose to be offensive but you've found a way to make it so that nothing can land....

[Kaiba]

Tia wtf?? stop being bitter that everyone hated your stats!!

This Zaejii/Monroe set is actually not bad. I like the mixture of ST/MT - makes it more viable for summer rounds. I like that they are open to people suggestion improvements. I like that they dont confront people who disagree with them by pming them on iRC to 'have it out'.

I think this set is offensive, everything has a weakness and the ST element means that its not easy to build a fleet to stop most incommings. Even the best will have holes.

I await your final draft guys when you have had time to devise your AC/DCs and other bits to make the stats 'a final draft'

I think targetting looks pretty sound right now although i will question some of the stealing ints. Int 31 for tycoons... how does that work if early in the round etd DE can roid ETD and then get stolen??? (de pod is int 30) does that make sense?? i would presume a ship has to make it back to base with the asteriods it captured... can you clarify please

[Jewid]

i know stats are far from final but from what i've seen Peg is buttraping fi like mad crazy in calcs and in a few real lands, i sent 65k harp, 50k nix, 10k pods vs 100k pegs and only killed 18k pegs while losing 2/3 of my fi, thats a bit imba imo.

[BloodyButcher]

Well, id say a pegasus who is a corvette is stupid enough

[Jewid]

I like the peg as class/target, but if its going to have the damage/armor it does vs ter fi i think an init 5 makes a better chance of landing, because as far as i can see Pegs will rape the uni thus making it a repeat of banshee in r46 and we'll all be bashing our heads in trying to find a way through

[Zaejii]

Originally Posted by Jewid

i know stats are far from final but from what i've seen Peg is buttraping fi like mad crazy in calcs and in a few real lands, i sent 65k harp, 50k nix, 10k pods vs 100k pegs and only killed 18k pegs while losing 2/3 of my fi, thats a bit imba imo.

I'm sad to be posting this before Mz got the chance, but I think this is more like what you were probably going for: Click (use the fleet enable/disable check boxes as you wish).

[MiX]

resetting beta every now and then would be cool

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by Plaguuu

The stats that are out now, I cant imagine them being anything than 5 minute of sparetime to just get em going. If theese infact are the stats that the game will have it will clearly be the worst stats ever. And the ones tia had set up was 10x better.

Who is doing them ?

And your stats last round were better? .....IT WAS CRAP!

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Jewid

I like the peg as class/target, but if its going to have the damage/armor it does vs ter fi i think an init 5 makes a better chance of landing, because as far as i can see Pegs will rape the uni thus making it a repeat of banshee in r46 and we'll all be bashing our heads in trying to find a way through

I'm not a fan of beta in general, I think it doesn't help much at all. Especially in this case, as long as effs aren't done, beta (and bcalcs) will be particularly useless.

[MiX]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

I'm not a fan of beta in general, I think it doesn't help much at all. Especially in this case, as long as effs aren't done, beta (and bcalcs) will be particularly useless.

well, itd be a lot more useful with more players and frequent resets

Current beta is almost 3k ticks in without a single reset and there are only 39 planets, 5 of those actually make fleets.

[Tiamat101]

I agree, I await actually being able to calc with Eff's close to what the stats designer had in mind.

I have never been fond of same init targeting. It just makes it too easy to scare off the attackers but not actually cover the attack. I'd rather have it be that the faster ship fires at a lower D/C and takes more damage back. At least that way if you have more value you can actually use it.

[Monroe]

Guardian init to 3, roach init to 2.
This allows at least one ship to fire before the guardian, which is overly powerful otherwise.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

I agree, I await actually being able to calc with Eff's close to what the stats designer had in mind.

I have never been fond of same init targeting. It just makes it too easy to scare off the attackers but not actually cover the attack. I'd rather have it be that the faster ship fires at a lower D/C and takes more damage back. At least that way if you have more value you can actually use it.

Really? Any top end player wouldnt land on a value loss these days, regardless of the rewards. Keeping value is everything in PA.

[Tiamat101]

Thats what im saying Kiaba is that with same Init Fire ships People with high value lose. Because someone with rank 400 can always just send his small ass peg fleet vs your t10 value ter fi fleet and you'll recall. Thus the stats are not even close to offensive.

[Killeah]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Thats what im saying Kiaba is that with same Init Fire ships People with high value lose. Because someone with rank 400 can always just send his small ass peg fleet vs your t10 value ter fi fleet and you'll recall. Thus the stats are not even close to offensive.

So you want stats where no one can def vs none?

atm ter can attack everything with FI, cept other ters who has pegs. And with 1 xan fleet they can again.

I remember stats you did where every race had 1 attack option only on solo.

I count 4 or 5 on most races with these stats.

So please tell us what you think is offensive stats?

Ofc. if everyone can attack everyone with every single class in every single race setup solo - we might just let everyone be emp and get over with it.

just admit that these stats infact are offensive, with a minimum of def options to actually make ally strat and def planning possible.

and I'm not even going to compare these to last round stats where everything was uber fuxed

[Mzyxptlk]

I miss the days of 0 loss def. <3

I also miss the days of good offensive stats. <3

P.S. No, that's not a contradiction.

[Tiamat101]

But if all it takes is 1 suicide ter then ter fi becomes a useless fleet to play. 1 small ter Fi def and you have to recall. With these stats playing xp strat is much better than a value strat which is ok, just not my play style. I'd rather be able to play terran like a value tank planet.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

I'd rather be able to play terran like a value tank planet.

But otherwise you're in favour of 'hyper offensive stats'. I see.

[Monroe]

D/C tweaks on Xan:
banshee dmg +1 => 8
spirit dmg +1 => 10
ghost dmg +1 => 14
bomber dmg +1 => 16
revenant dmg +1 => 29
spectre dmg + 8 => 43

Also some balancing of Clipper/Ironclad to better take into account that they are CR and not DE

[Tiamat101]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

But otherwise you're in favour of 'hyper offensive stats'. I see.

You can play a value tank in hyper offensive stats just means you have to pick the right races to meta vs. Or in my case pick the right ally to meta against.

[Mzyxptlk]

Guess you and me have different definitions of "value tank" and/or "hyper offensive".

[MiX]

A thing that bothers me about these stats is that every race (except Etd going De) HAS TO research up to siege hulls before they can build ships targeting all classes.

I feel that this shouldnt be necessary, especially for xand with the slow research.

Another thing that bothered me about the xand stats is that the Fi and Fr attack fleets both target the same classes entirely, thats a bit redundant. I would suggest these changes in targeting for Xand Fr, please provide me with comments on these suggested changes:

Spirit : Co -> Fi/Co
Ghost: De/Fr -> De
Bomber: Bs -> Bs/Cr
Revenant: Fi -> Fr

The Cr targeting could potentially also go on the Revenant that would make it better against cath Cr (soak EMP with Fr = Revenant fires), and worse against zik Cr (no free shots).

These changes may seem a bit drastic but I really think there is a problem in xand having to go up to hulls 3 to tgt everything, hulls 2 is often hard enough. With those changes Ter/Cath/Zik still have to get hull 3 to tgt Bs or Cr/Bs (ter), maybe another of those could get some changes in this aspect as well? I didnt look into ter in too much detail yet but perhaps Gryphon would be a good candidate for a second tgt in Cr or Bs.

[Mzyxptlk]

I'd be inclined to agree that Xan needs Fr/De that targets Cr/Bs. The stats can still encourage researching Hulls 3 by putting the SK there, as well as make the Cr/Bs -> Cr/Bs ships better than the Fr/De -> Cr/Bs ones.

For comparison, looking at the round 16 stats (we can all agree they were offensive, can't we?): Xan and Cat have full coverage in Fi-De, Ter only has a Bs -> Bs ship and Zik doesn't have anti-Fr until they get Siege. (Etd didn't exist yet. Good times.)

[Monroe]

Xan already targets BS without need hull 3, the fact that they need hull 3 to have the best anti CR ship in the game doesn't bother me at all. These stats are designed to make it tough to hang onto roids, forcing xans into a tough choice over research is an interesting dilemma in my opinion and I prefer to keep it.

[Tiamat101]

With these stats i see no reason not to have everyone playing Xan. They are strong vs fi/co/fr/de/bs/cr

Edit: I take that back they are weak vs Ter fi and Cat co.

[Kaiba]

I actually think the opposite. I think with these stats there will be a bigger drive towards cr/bs fleets and an even bigger emphasis on galaxy defending amongst the bigger alliances.

Because of this i think Xan will be one of the lesser played races, I think Terran, Etd and Cat will make up a large percentage of the playerbase

[Tiamat101]

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=vnxryp8wz3lwebi
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=8njv11sn4lnooh4

The only one that has a good matchup vs xan is etd bs. and that can just be flacked out.

[Reincarnate]

not looked much but made this calc: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gq42shaijytij1t

kinda makes me think there could be some actual battles that both side are happy to land....not a bad thing.

[Reincarnate]

did another one that both might land?

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=yo1qzcx3a7ufmhb

admittedly i havent had a drink tonight, so maybe i am just going a bit insane

[Kaiba]

For 300 odd ticks Xan is weak to CR and BS incs. Until it has spectres it is useless against CR incs and every other anti CR in the game gets hugged t1 or outinted for steals/kills.

Yes the spectre is a decent anti CR ship but by the time Xans have it they will be at a massive value defecit to CR/BS fleets and will have been shafted for roids for 300 ticks.


As a xan if you go all bomber you get shafted by CR, if you go all spectres you get shafted by BS, if you go 50/50 that 300 ticks of value advantage means you get shafted by both.

Really the only race Xan sucessfully attacks into is itself and Cat (due to the emp factor), all the other races attack well into Xan and others. They are a better choice for the round as a whole.

Added to this the fact Xan was sooooooooooo shit to play last round means people will want a change anyway. Will be lucky to get 20% xan with these stats and other factors.

[Tiamat101]

This is where you are wrong, I dont ever attack All I do is meta vs 1 alliance/Strat and I plan to war that alliance. So I can 3x defend.

Also I hear that Demo Xan is coming back

Also Bombers are very good vs anti bs because they get hugged and and fire on ter bs with a high d/c and better init. Thus saying implying that Cr will be strong. Even if it takes those xan's 300 ticks to get spectre fleets what are you the Cr ally going to do vs 25-30 Spectre fleets every night? Then the next 300 ticks of where you cant land your attack and you'll have to build into other classes, Cat co... *owned by xan* or zik fr... also owned by xan.... So you tell me what your 301-600 tick plan will be? With your ally compo of 30% cat 30% zik 20% etd 20%ter vs my 60% xan 30% Zik 10% ter.?

[Monroe]

Honestly guys the arguments you are making really prove how defensive the stats have been the last few rounds. With offensive stats like these there is no one strategy that does not have holes in it, this is the point. Any alliance that goes pure one class is going to be in trouble if we've done the stats right. If you can find a case where this isn't true let me know so we can fix the stats! Thanks for all the feedback, you guys have been raising interesting points (even if I don't agree with them all).

[Kaiba]

Monroe i am agreeing with you that the stats are good offensively. I just dont like Tia's permnant bitterness and pessism regarding a set of stats better than what he came up with.

I think you will find the winning alliances will follow the current Ultores trend of having 1 strat for forts and 1 strat for the rest. That diversity will keep roids coming in regardless of the target and the diversity of defensive ships will make defending easier for the collective.

In regards to your comments about planning a strat against 1 alliance Tia, what round in recent memory have 2 alliances warred each other all round?? no wars in PA last more than 300 ticks these days and everyone swaps sides.

In regards to your statements about Xan Fi owning Zif FR and Cat Co, yes that is true and is the point of Monroes stats. Diversity in setup will prevail this round. Yes CR fleets will struggle against Spectres once they exsist but if they cant land you then the rest still will. Xan is naturally weak to all comers as a race, that hasnt changed. It just has 1 opped ship with a specific anti. Xan still relies on other races to aid it offensively and defensivly and its a ability to 1 ship/pod fake. Other races dont so much

[Zaejii]

To be certain that Terran and Xandathrii fighters don't COMPLETELY rule the universe, the Cathaar engineers have slightly altered the targeting on the Spider. The extra weight of the faster targeting systems have taken its toll on the effectiveness of the equipped blasters. However, this modification will serve as a potential counter for FI dominance by Ter/Xan.

Spider
Targeting DE/CO => CO/FI
Armor +2 => 13
Damage -2 => 6