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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 19:48   #1
G.K Zhukov
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Double standards ahoy

We didnt have to wait long for a new comedy to start in the new year.

The usually so pro-market (or in fact market-obsessed) countries like the USA have now told Russia & Putin that they are so evil. For demanding market prizes for russian gass to Ukraine.

SOMEONE IS DEMANDING MARKET-PRIZES FOR SOMETHING!!!!

oh god, how evil.

Some people seems a bit slow to get it. Just take this ukrainian, interviewed by bbc:

"We love Russian people, but we are an independent country," says Zoya Polychenko, a teacher in the capital.

"We are not Russia's little brother. We should be treated as equal partners."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4576370.stm

Yes, you are treated the way Gazprom (the russian company selling the gas) treats the EU. They charge EU 240$ per cubic meter and they want you to pay 230$.

Oddly enough, nobody complained when Chavez agreed to sell oil cheaper to Cuba and others..
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 19:51   #2
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Oddly enough, nobody complained when Chavez agreed to sell oil cheaper to Cuba and others..
Actually the American government have complained about that, although they pretty complain about everything Chavez does, so that's hardly surprising.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 20:12   #3
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Re: Double standards ahoy

I'd like to point out that Gazprom is Russian state-owned before we procede any further.

Admittedly they are in fact asking for Ukraine to pay market price for their gas - but a free market type would doubtless be inclined to point out that this market price will be higher than it should be due interference by the Russian government. A free market type would probably also point out that noone would be able to accuse Russia of acting on political rather than economic motives with regard to this issue if the government hadn't purchased Gazprom to begin with.

I'm not saying Ukraine shouldn't have to pay market price, nor indeed am I necessarily opposed to the idea of government-ownership of firms and that ilk; but bearing in mind that the Ukraine is not one of the world's richest countries, I don't think it unreasonable that the Russian government should have at least considered the request to bring the purchase cost up to market price over the course of a few years rather than "immediately."
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 20:15   #4
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Re: Double standards ahoy

the Russians were playing hardball and obviously had political motives for what they did, but on the flipside, the Ukranians don't really have a legitimate basis for complaint here.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 20:27   #5
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Id like to point out that the two biggest norwegian oil companies, Statoil and Hydro, is both controlled (78% and 34%) by the Norwegian state. However, that has NEVER stopped those companies selling the oil and gass they produce at market rates. Even to good friends and neighbours. Or to poor countries.

If Ukraine thinks the gas from Gazprom is to expensive (becouse its not a free-market bla bla blah), they can buy from the North Sea. Oh, bugger, the prize will be even higher for them
A privatly owned (or rather privately-controlled) Gazprom would be even less keen to sell gass for anything else than the market-prize.

Gazprom (and Russia) has been subsidising its former republics (including Ukraine) for a decade now. And they have not even get paid for alot of the gas they have sold (partly beouse of stealing from the pipelines). So Ukraine and others have had a decade to prepare for the marketization of energy-prizes.

Why exactly should Russia give away billions of dollars each year? We (Norway) dont do it, and we are a hell of richer nation than Russia is. Nobody bitches at us though, strangly.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 20:39   #6
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Granted, I don't know whether or not the allegations of Ukraine stealing from the pipelines are true. What I am saying is that, aside from whether or not this economic situation should have arisen in the first place, the manner in which the Russian government has brought about the present scenario (Ukraine facing instantaneously doubled prices) is frankly unnacceptable. This is ignoring the fact that I'm more inclined to "trust" the Norwegian government to handle its state firms reasonably than I am Putin's autocratic powerhouse.

Additionally I think Russia's binding the Eastern Bloc to them in thrall for four decades somewhat justifies at least some subsidisation of the poorer of said ex-satellites for some years thereafter.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 20:50   #7
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Re: Double standards ahoy

I'd like to point out that it's price, not prize
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 20:58   #8
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Re: Double standards ahoy

I'd like to point out that the price rise is politically-motivated rather than part of a wonderful shift to the free market. In doing so, I'd like to remind you that the cuddly Belarus will still be paying $47 for the foreseeable future.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 21:30   #9
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miliukov
Granted, I don't know whether or not the allegations of Ukraine stealing from the pipelines are true.
Its a established fact that there has been massive tappings in the past of the gas-network (and oil) in the former USSR. I belive you can find lots of articles about it on the net if you google for it. This probably still continues, even inside Russia. According to my uncle, who works for Statoil and have been dealing with Gazprom in the past, told me that Gazprom had huge problems getting money in. Partly becouse of tappings. This was a few years ago.

When it comes to todays situation, its fairly obvious that the ukrainians are tapping off alot of gas. Why else would Germany, Poland, Austria, Hungary and other customurs report such a huge drop? Do we seriously belive that Gazprom would put itself in a position where it would be labelled a "bad supplier"? I think you gotta be pretty conspiratorical to belive so :P
Quote:
What I am saying is that, aside from whether or not this economic situation should have arisen in the first place, the manner in which the Russian government has brought about the present scenario (Ukraine facing instantaneously doubled prices) is frankly unnacceptable.
The prize used to be 50£, so its alot more than doubling.
It's called capitalism, baby. If you dont like it, play another game. Most others play the game, and the ukraninans themself want to play that game.
Quote:
This is ignoring the fact that I'm more inclined to "trust" the Norwegian government to handle its state firms reasonably than I am Putin's autocratic powerhouse.
Our politicans have one rule for the companies where the state holds total or partical control. To run it like a private company, and to obtaint maximum profits.

So in the example of Ukraine, a market-prize would have been demanded too. And ofcouse no offers of 3 months for the old prize and so on. We dont giev our friends (like Sweden) 75% off. We never have, we never will. This is how to system works in the west. And its not like the swedes sell they're Volvos to us with a rebate too.
Quote:
Additionally I think Russia's binding the Eastern Bloc to them in thrall for four decades somewhat justifies at least some subsidisation of the poorer of said ex-satellites for some years thereafter.
In a ideal world, surely.
But again, it doesnt work that way. You see the US giving money or help to Latin-America after fuc*ing them up for four decades? No. Not that the US was subsidising Lating-America with anything during that time either. And expect for the Marshall-period, they didnt help its satelite states in Western-Europe either.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 21:38   #10
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'd like to point out that the price rise is politically-motivated rather than part of a wonderful shift to the free market. In doing so, I'd like to remind you that the cuddly Belarus will still be paying $47 for the foreseeable future.
Yes furball. But you fail to grasp reality. The price that Belarus pays, its irrelevent. Gazprom can have different prices for different customers. Belarus gets special treatment. Germany, France, Italy, Hungary, Ukraine, Romania, Austria and so on, doesnt. So they will have to pay the same for russian gas as they would pay for norwegian gas (actually, I think the russian one is cheaper than the norwegian one). Ofcourse there is politics in it. Russia doesnt feel like subsidising a non-friendly country who wants to join the EU instead of beeing buddies with em.

You dont see Chavez treating Cuba and the US the same way, do you?
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 21:39   #11
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Exclamation Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'd like to point out that the price rise is politically-motivated rather than part of a wonderful shift to the free market. In doing so, I'd like to remind you that the cuddly Belarus will still be paying $47 for the foreseeable future.
All Gazprom customers are equal, but some Gazprom customers are more equal than others. The message here is clear: former soviet republics that defer to Moscow get cheap gas, former soviet republics that try to exert some independence pay market rates.

Russia is just being petulant though, since 4/5s of Russia's natural gas exports pass through the Ukraine (not to mention the Black Sea naval base they're leasing from the Ukrainians), they really can't afford to annoy the Ukrainians too much.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 21:49   #12
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Its a established fact that there has been massive tappings in the past of the gas-network ...[etcetera]
Granted, then, but I do not feel this justifies forcing Ukraine to pay a higher price than (as cited by Furball) Belarus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
When it comes to todays situation, its fairly obvious that the ukrainians are tapping off alot of gas. Why else would Germany, Poland, Austria, Hungary and other customurs report such a huge drop? Do we seriously belive that Gazprom would put itself in a position where it would be labelled a "bad supplier"? I think you gotta be pretty conspiratorical to belive so :P
They've reported a drop because the Ukraine used to act as a conduit for the Russian gas and now is less capable of doing so. I don't think the entire drop in supply could be accounted for by now-prevented Ukrainian thievery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
The prize used to be 50£, so its alot more than doubling.
It's called capitalism, baby. If you dont like it, play another game. Most others play the game, and the ukraninans themself want to play that game.
But it isn't capitalism; this is the Russian government hiking the price, not some cackling top-hatted plutocrat. After all, what's the justification of government intervention in the first place if not to prevent gross market failure? I'd personally consider purposefully shafting your neighbours' citizenry in this fashion to be a rather good example of just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Our politicans have one rule for the companies where the state holds total or partical control. To run it like a private company, and to obtaint maximum profits.
I don't think all firms seek to maximise profits all the time. In the long run, perhaps. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with the Norwegian fuel markets so you'll understand if I can't argue too effectively against examples pertaining to them. Either way, I believe the logic behind the nationalistion in the first place would have been to ensure a stable supply of a strategic resource, rather than to exercise economic control over one's neighbours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
So in the example of Ukraine, a market-prize would have been demanded too. And ofcouse no offers of 3 months for the old prize and so on. We dont giev our friends (like Sweden) 75% off. We never have, we never will. This is how to system works in the west. And its not like the swedes sell they're Volvos to us with a rebate too.
Nor does Norway (to my knowledge) force its enemies to pay substantially more than its friends such as Sweden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
In a ideal world, surely.
But again, it doesnt work that way. You see the US giving money or help to Latin-America after fuc*ing them up for four decades? No. Not that the US was subsidising Lating-America with anything during that time either. And expect for the Marshall-period, they didnt help its satelite states in Western-Europe either.
Oh I see the United States subsidising Columbia. Problem seems to be that the government spends it on guns to fight the communists with. American Imperialism aside, you can't deny that Russia's exact move here will do nothing more than make a lot of ordinary Ukrainians substantially worse off. Surely, as an upstanding socialist, you can't approve of that?
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 22:19   #13
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Russia is just being petulant though, since 4/5s of Russia's natural gas exports pass through the Ukraine (not to mention the Black Sea naval base they're leasing from the Ukrainians), they really can't afford to annoy the Ukrainians too much.
Ukraine wants to get in the EU, and so it's very unlikely ukraine will block the pipelines in view of upsetting their western neighbours.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 22:32   #14
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Ukraine wants to get in the EU, and so it's very unlikely ukraine will block the pipelines in view of upsetting their western neighbours.
As long as they can shift the blame on to Russia....
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 22:46   #15
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Re: Double standards ahoy

But they can't.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 23:12   #16
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miliukov
Granted, then, but I do not feel this justifies forcing Ukraine to pay a higher price than (as cited by Furball) Belarus.
Russia is tired of not getting paid for its natural resouces. They are tired of subsidising countries who are not they're friends. Putin wants as much money as he can get, in order to build Russia and to reinstate its position as a international player. The (former) theft of gas and oil doesnt really have much to do with todays deadlock though.

And furball argument is irrelevent. Belarus is on the A-list. Ukraine is on the C-list, together with most countries.
Quote:
They've reported a drop because the Ukraine used to act as a conduit for the Russian gas and now is less capable of doing so. I don't think the entire drop in supply could be accounted for by now-prevented Ukrainian thievery.
Maybe, but why havent we heard any reports about large gass-shortages among ukrainians? As Gazprom suplies 1/3 of the gas ukraine needs...
Quote:
But it isn't capitalism; this is the Russian government hiking the price, not some cackling top-hatted plutocrat. After all, what's the justification of government intervention in the first place if not to prevent gross market failure? I'd personally consider purposefully shafting your neighbours' citizenry in this fashion to be a rather good example of just that.
Nobody cares about gross market failure, specially if you earn billions on it. The Norwegian goverment had monopolised the selling of gas from the norwegian part of the North Sea, before some EU directive forced it to split up. Why exactly should Gazprom care about the well-beeing of ukrainian citizens? Gazprom is a company. It has two functions: 1) be helpful towards the friends of Russia 2) Get in as much money as possible.

Quote:
I don't think all firms seek to maximise profits all the time. In the long run, perhaps. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with the Norwegian fuel markets so you'll understand if I can't argue too effectively against examples pertaining to them. Either way, I believe the logic behind the nationalistion in the first place would have been to ensure a stable supply of a strategic resource, rather than to exercise economic control over one's neighbours.
Sadly, what you think (or I think) or what we wish, is totally irrelevent. Companies exist to maximize profits. Statoil for instance have been lowering safety standards, refusing to pay compensation to divers who got severly damaged due to to much and to hazardous work, trying to outsource parts of the work on the oil instalations in order to lower costs, using the goverment to effectivily forbid strikes in the North Sea (so much for workers rights) and trying to get the goverment to let them search for oil and gas in all areas of the North Sea and the Barents Sea, without any care for the envirment.

Just to mention a few things. So this is a company, who is 78% controlled by the norwegian state, who acts exactly the same way as Shell or BP.
Quote:
Nor does Norway (to my knowledge) force its enemies to pay substantially more than its friends such as Sweden.
I didnt know Russia treated Italy, France, Germany, Hungary and so on, as its enemies. Your logic is deeply flawed. Ukraine is simply beeing treated as most others.

Quote:
Oh I see the United States subsidising Columbia. Problem seems to be that the government spends it on guns to fight the communists with. American Imperialism aside, you can't deny that Russia's exact move here will do nothing more than make a lot of ordinary Ukrainians substantially worse off. Surely, as an upstanding socialist, you can't approve of that?

Well, I ment civilian aid, not military aid.
Funny thing with old USSR-imperialism was how pitful they were at exploiting the third world compared the West. They just didnt have any WTO, World Bank or IMF. They did try, like in Afganistan and a few other places, but it wasnt a massive success. They tried to buy some friends, with huge subsidies. The ironic of it beeing that alot of citizens in they're satelite states lived better than they're own.

Ofcouse this will mean that the average ukrainian will pay more. But they have to learn the game sooner or later, wont they (oh damn, it has already been done heh).
It's not really about what I or you want, its to understand the simple rules of the game. However simple they are, people seem to have problems getting it.
Besides, it's the russians gas, and nobody have the right to tell them what to do with the countries own natural resouces.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 23:20   #17
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
But they can't.
Well. They have pushed the blame for the lack of gas to Germany and other contries towards Russia. Even if Ukraine most likely have tapping some of that russian gas for its own use.

Both the US and Germany/EU have been out critizing Russia.
Since both the US and the EU-block wants to have Ukraine in they're respective spheres of influnce, it's a fine opertunity to back Ukraine in this case.

The Big Game is on.
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Unread 3 Jan 2006, 23:43   #18
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Western governments have always been hypocritical on points like this. Everyone loves morality until it ****s their personal interests in the ass. That said the US is obviously right about why Russia is doing this but it's sort of irrelevant. That said talking about the market price for a state-controlled industry's product is monumentally missing the point and almost laughably irrelevant.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 00:14   #19
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Re: Double standards ahoy

While following the whole incident it was interesting to hear that the Ukraine government even subsidized the energy prices for their own industry. So they get gas for less then a forth of the market price and then even subsidize that for their industry. Call me "selfish" or even "nationalistic" but knowing how many factories closed in germany because they are unable to compete anymore on the market with the high local energy prices (aluminium production and such) - my sympathy over this increase is split.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That said talking about the market price for a state-controlled industry's product is monumentally missing the point and almost laughably irrelevant.
Given the WIPO, WTO and other institutions - why exactly is that so?
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 00:23   #20
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Re: Double standards ahoy

you know zhukov, you really are a terrible terrible troll, looking at both sides of an argument would be more fair that you could possibly imagine wouldn't it?

nice to see that you ignored the best reply of the thread (i dont think that i even need to say who wrote it)

the ukraine have offered consessions, such as gradual increases etc, the only reason russia doesnt want to hear any of it is because they are trying to bully their former eastern bloc allies into toeing their line, and because the ukraine havent, they are the ones being made an example of
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 00:36   #21
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Exclamation Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Ukraine wants to get in the EU, and so it's very unlikely ukraine will block the pipelines in view of upsetting their western neighbours.
They don't have to block it. They can restrict the flow or divert some of it (essentially, tax it). When you ship your products across another country's territory then it's really in your best interests to be on reasonably friendly terms with them. Trying to strong-arm them with a 400+% price hike with minimal warning, on the other hand, is just going to piss them off--as Putin has discovered.

Also, the EU has mostly supported Ukraine since they don't want Russia jacking the price of gas around for political reasons any more than Ukraine does.

It's now moot anyway. Russia is pumping more gas to make up for what's 'disappearing.' They will now have to go back and negotiate a more gradual price increase with Ukraine which is what they should have done in the first place. Ukraine will end up paying market rates but it will be phased in over a couple of years.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 01:21   #22
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
you know zhukov, you really are a terrible terrible troll
yes he is, but in this case he's right.

here's an example: debenhams every so often have their blue cross sales, which last for a short period of time and involve large reductions on all of their prices. when the sale ends, the prices return to normal. do customers have any legitimate argument if they complain about this sudden price hike?
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 01:29   #23
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Not a great analogy...
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 01:30   #24
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Re: Double standards ahoy

That's nowhere near an analogy.

Ukraine's subsidies originate from the break-up of the Soviet Union 15 years ago (bit longer than your average blue cross sale, Phang). Russia, seeking to exert influence over a country which has democratically aligned itself with the West, attempted to force Ukraine back to the general market price by withdrawing all of its subsidies at once, rather than through a general phase out.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 01:42   #25
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Why should Gazprom give out billions to Ukraine trough a general phase out of subsidies, furball?
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 02:10   #26
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Because Russia (Gazprom) shouldn't be a complete jerk on the world stage - it's maintained those subsidies for long enough, there's no desperate need to withdraw them at once.

Oh and you do know that Russia has now agreed to a general phase out, don't you Zhukov?
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 02:12   #27
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Its meaningless to talk about free-markets when the seller is the state, so this thread is fairly pointless.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 02:19   #28
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Re: Double standards ahoy

There certainly is a lot of double standard judgement in this thread o/
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 02:53   #29
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Because Russia (Gazprom) shouldn't be a complete jerk on the world stage - it's maintained those subsidies for long enough, there's no desperate need to withdraw them at once.

Oh and you do know that Russia has now agreed to a general phase out, don't you Zhukov?
Gazprom wants to be a global energy company. It doesnt get there with giving away billions of dollars each year. Becouse Gazprom have wasted billions on Ukraine in the past, doesnt mean it want to keep doing it.

They havent agreed to anything yet, atleast not according to bbc and cnn. Do you have a link saying otherwise?
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 02:58   #30
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Re: Double standards ahoy

I will have in a few days. Skim-read sites, but it doesn't matter anyway. The deal will be made.


Cutting off gas supply was just Moscow's way of attempting to bring the Ukraine to heel. With Ukraine getting a lot of support from the West, it'll fail.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 09:28   #31
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Re: Double standards ahoy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4579648.stm
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 10:58   #32
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Re: Double standards ahoy

so, gazprom was in the wrong and russias attempt to punish the ukraine failed... is anyone apart from zhukov surprised by this... also phang, that wasn't even an analogy as the situations described by me and you were not analogous, having completely different circumstances.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 11:25   #33
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Actually, this price is nearly twice as big as the one Ukraine previously paid, and in the amounts russian gas is being exported to that country, I'd call that a small victory. Revenues for Gazprom will increase a lot over this, and Ukraine has learnt that they can not expect to name their prices as they please.

Expect long term increases in price, until it will be only a bit below market prices.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 11:28   #34
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Wow, a capitalist country using economic warfare to influence a country in it's sphere of influence.

How original...

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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 11:31   #35
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Its meaningless to talk about free-markets when the seller is the state, so this thread is fairly pointless.
Yeah probably, although from what I can remember most oil extraction (globally) is done by state companies so it's debatable how different this is from the norm.

Even where oil is extracted / sold on by private firms it's generally under licence from states anyway so I don't really see how that's significantly different.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 11:32   #36
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Re: Double standards ahoy

I have to agree with zhukov on this. Why shouldn't the russians demand the world market price? A gas-company, even if it's controlled by a government, isnt exactly a charity-organization, is it? Most oil-companies are owned by states, noone seems to complain about them.
But this thread became somewhat hypothetical now, they have reached a deal. The russians get a little more money, the ukraine still pays less than the market price, everyone is happy.
If this whole incident shows one thing, then it is that Europe is far too dependend on russian gas. I don't think the whole EU could get its supplies from Norway, at least not for very long.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 11:52   #37
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Given the WIPO, WTO and other institutions - why exactly is that so?
because
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Its meaningless to talk about free-markets when the seller is the state
So using this as some sort of critique of the rational consistency of capitalism is silly. Then you're just left with the hypocrisy of the US and crikey Billy Joe but I think even Farmer Adams and his nigras knew about that one.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 12:53   #38
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Actually, this price is nearly twice as big as the one Ukraine previously paid
But only 40% of that which Russia actually wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Ukraine has learnt that they can not expect to name their prices as they please. Expect long term increases in price, until it will be only a bit below market prices.
Ukraine wasn't 'naming prices' - it was opposed to an immediate withdrawal of all subsidies. Quite where naming prices comes into this is beyond me - unless you got a little too far into the rhetoric and forgot the substance of anything resembling an argument.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 13:15   #39
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
But only 40% of that which Russia actually wanted.
Last time I bargained something, I named a price, and the person I was bargaining with named one. Now, I realize this was not a bargain on a country-to-country level, but I assume that each country has their own agendas and goals with the negotiations done there - and with Gazprom being a nationally controlled company, one can assume that this applies here. I doubt Russia would have accepted this if there was no offer wich they could be at least partially satisfied with.

Quote:
Ukraine wasn't 'naming prices' - it was opposed to an immediate withdrawal of all subsidies. Quite where naming prices comes into this is beyond me - unless you got a little too far into the rhetoric and forgot the substance of anything resembling an argument.
Naming prices or not - it seems quite clear to me that Ukraine's wishes were to continue having the situation as it had previously been, or that is what seems most logical given the situation they were in. In effect, it is the same.

Edit: Oh, and it is qebab, not qubab, thank you (:
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 13:24   #40
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That said talking about the market price for a state-controlled industry's product is monumentally missing the point and almost laughably irrelevant.
I disagree with the absoluteness you and (partly) Nodrog make this point. I dont say you both are completely wrong - but you are oversimplifying it.

It was interesting to watch the tip-toeing of some western government politicians about this issue between ukraine and russia and the different issues giving who is and who isnt a member of the mentioned treaties (WIPO, WTO and others). Currently russia is not a member of the WTO even though talks do happen since years. If russia where (like most of its "critics" in this issue) a member of the WTO, it would be _forced_ to demand the public market price for gas from the ukraine.

Check http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/..._e/agrm8_e.htm

A complaining country under the paragraph about "Actionable subsidies" could for example be germany as i mentioned how due to energy prices whole industries close down here. For political reasons germany would probably "suggest" to some other country to complain but thats a different issue.

A complaint would result in a "dispute settlement procedure" (see http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/..._e/disp1_e.htm for some info and stats and http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/..._e/disp3_e.htm for an example of a case). If you followed the steel disagreements between the US and others or the Boeing/Airbus conflict about subsidies, they are rather interesting.

My point is that its not that easy for a government which is a WTO member to put price-tags "at will". If you know the history of the oil price and its political implications, you know there are equal treaties about that.

On the other hand - after beeing in the business for over a decade now, i doubt there is any legal "free" market at all. There are so many restrictions, regulations and limitations that its rather difficult to talk about "free" market or "free" price finding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So using this as some sort of critique of the rational consistency of capitalism is silly. Then you're just left with the hypocrisy of the US and crikey Billy Joe but I think even Farmer Adams and his nigras knew about that one.
Honestly - i have no clue what you want to say with that or how it applies to what i wrote. At the end of this post, i fear we talk about different things here
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 13:27   #41
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Re: Double standards ahoy

I can't remember where I saw it but I thought part of Ukraine's annoyance was that they claimed to have a contract for gas at $50 till 2009.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 14:14   #42
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
On the other hand - after beeing in the business for over a decade now, i doubt there is any legal "free" market at all. There are so many restrictions, regulations and limitations that its rather difficult to talk about "free" market or "free" price finding.
A "free" market in the absolute sense is a bit like the theological problem of omnipotence (could God make a stone so heavy even he couldn't lift it?) and ultimately disappears in a puff of logic. Rules against subsidies or monopolies are pretty much anti-free market (in a free market why wouldn't people be able to sell their goods for whatever price they want?) but at the same time are in place to support the notion of a free market.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 16:35   #43
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
I disagree with the absoluteness you and (partly) Nodrog make this point. I dont say you both are completely wrong - but you are oversimplifying it.
Simplifying things is what separates us from the animals. Except the retarded ones I guess.

Quote:
On the other hand - after beeing in the business for over a decade now, i doubt there is any legal "free" market at all. There are so many restrictions, regulations and limitations that its rather difficult to talk about "free" market or "free" price finding.
Of course there isn't.

Quote:
Honestly - i have no clue what you want to say with that or how it applies to what i wrote. At the end of this post, i fear we talk about different things here
That was more of a general query of zhukov's intentions in creating this thread rather than questioning anything you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
A "free" market in the absolute sense is a bit like the theological problem of omnipotence (could God make a stone so heavy even he couldn't lift it?) and ultimately disappears in a puff of logic. Rules against subsidies or monopolies are pretty much anti-free market (in a free market why wouldn't people be able to sell their goods for whatever price they want?) but at the same time are in place to support the notion of a free market.
Nah dude just because people create shit rules to support a cool system doesn't make the system less cool. It's like saying because people might create rules forcing everyone to vote democracy must be self-contradictory.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 16:38   #44
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nah dude just because people create shit rules to support a cool system doesn't make the system less cool. It's like saying because people might create rules forcing everyone to vote democracy must be self-contradictory.
I was implying that you can't actually have a system without such rules (at least, not for long).
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 16:40   #45
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I was implying that you can't actually have a system without such rules (at least, not for long).
I disagree. What with the major, if not sole, problem with this being a mental one it's not that difficult to address, or at least theorise the possibility of addressing.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 16:41   #46
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Exclamation Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
A "free" market in the absolute sense is a bit like the theological problem of omnipotence (could God make a stone so heavy even he couldn't lift it?) and ultimately disappears in a puff of logic. Rules against subsidies or monopolies are pretty much anti-free market (in a free market why wouldn't people be able to sell their goods for whatever price they want?) but at the same time are in place to support the notion of a free market.
People's 'notion' of a free market often amounts to little more than what benefits them directly. Rules against discounting and monopolies aren't there to support the a free market, they're there to support specific people's interests. One should never confuse the rationalizations with the realities.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 16:42   #47
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I disagree. What with the major, if not sole, problem with this being a mental one it's not that difficult to address, or at least theorise the possibility of addressing.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying the problem of monopolies is a mental one? Are you saying they aren't really a problem?
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 16:44   #48
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Re: Double standards ahoy

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying the problem of monopolies is a mental one? Are you saying they aren't really a problem?
I'm saying they're a problem due to the way people approach the free-market. To correct myself it is a real problem created due to a mental problem.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 18:36   #49
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Re: Double standards ahoy

I tend to view anti-trust legislation and the like as analogous to the constitutions that we have in liberal (?) democracy today. If a newly-elected fascist government is prevented from exercising (to the fullest extent) the political mandate given to it by the majority of the people, I would not be inclined to call that tyranny. Similarly, no single economic agent within the free market system should be allowed to wield a disproportionate share of buying or selling power in relation to a given market - and I personally (certain economists on both side of the spectrum would doubtless disagree) wouldn't be inclined to call that tyranny either, within the context of a mixed free market system.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 18:55   #50
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Re: Double standards ahoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miliukov
I tend to view anti-trust legislation and the like as analogous to the constitutions that we have in liberal (?) democracy today.
I really don't see this as a useful analogy, mainly due to the fact that liberal democracy is a compound idea whereas the free market is singular.
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