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Unread 24 Apr 2010, 20:20   #51
Zotnam
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
Basically it came down to the way you approached Grog and told him that his strategy was wrong. Yes, you and I and hopefully now Grog too can see that it was a poor strategy... but Grog has spent most of his PA career playing dictator to a small minority who are all perfectly happy to place their trust in somebody else and play as a collective.

Just by the by, the 'dictator' comment was not meant as derogatory - I'm paraphrasing Grog himself when I describe him as such.

Anyway, the bottom line is that Grog has never had to listen to anybody else's opinion because he's used to people placing their trust in him to do the right thing. Unfortuantely, DLR isn't a small BG playing inside a tag, nor is it a small tag playing for the good of each other with no real objective outside doing well and annoying people.

The bottom line is that Grog does not have the experience to lead a full alliance in the pursuit of success. He's not used to having to deal with the casual gamers who don't play in a tag in order to be part of a team, nor is he used to having to try and use and manipulate political situations to advance his own standing.

Bottom line: you told him he was wrong, Tzu, and he didn't like that. You didn't represent the kind of player he was capable of dealing with and were rejected on account of being a non-conformist.

None of the above makes him bad per ce, nor should it be reason to dislike the guy. He's a very good leader and usually gets tactics spot on. He's even laughed at some of my jokes, so he can't be all bad.

All I'm saying is there's no need to hold the guy's head under whilst he's already out of his depth, tis all.
Apart from you saying "bottom line" 3 times and none of them actually being the bottom line, this post makes sense. Actually so much sense I wish it had come from someone like zebra or another long term DLR player. 2 rounds ago when I played a round in DLR I had the same experience as this, all the way down to questioning fr/de def ship choices. "Luckily" my comp died before it really got to arguing.. And eventhough the ship classes worked out that round because of sharing def with euph, it was still the wrong choice.

I like less people having more power when it comes to pa alliances and decision making, a 3 man hc team should be enough with a couple of bc's offering opinions/advice. 1 person however, is not enough. I also think that the traditional DLR tactics have lost their punch, fi/co fleets with fr/de pure def fleets, seems to be the same every round. The launch/recall tactic is also way less effective than 6 rounds ago, everyone has an !sms function now to make these things a lot easier to handled.

Grog is a good hc/dc/bc, no doubt about it but the effort it takes to run a roundwinning alliance is huge and nothing like doing the same for an alliance ranked 5th-10th which DLR typically have been. Maybe this surprised him, I don't know. I think they will move back to a smaller tag, but unless they try new ideas, it will never be the successful and good experience they had in past rounds. You need to evolve even in this game.

As for politics this round, there is no doubt DLR made a big mistake and thought very shortsighted when they made the apprime nap. Even when they _must_ have realised the mistake they didn't try and correct it, or even talk to the people reaching out. Heck, half the time I didn't even get a reply to my pm's and I know others have said the same thing Now they are out of the top5 and the questioned raised in this thread has been answered. Afaik they don't plan on doing much the rest of the round, hopefully they will regroup for the next round and avoid the same mistakes.
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Unread 24 Apr 2010, 20:57   #52
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Apart from you saying "bottom line" 3 times and none of them actually being the bottom line, this post makes sense. Actually so much sense I wish it had come from someone like zebra or another long term DLR player. 2 rounds ago when I played a round in DLR I had the same experience as this, all the way down to questioning fr/de def ship choices. "Luckily" my comp died before it really got to arguing.. And eventhough the ship classes worked out that round because of sharing def with euph, it was still the wrong choice.

I like less people having more power when it comes to pa alliances and decision making, a 3 man hc team should be enough with a couple of bc's offering opinions/advice. 1 person however, is not enough. I also think that the traditional DLR tactics have lost their punch, fi/co fleets with fr/de pure def fleets, seems to be the same every round. The launch/recall tactic is also way less effective than 6 rounds ago, everyone has an !sms function now to make these things a lot easier to handled.

Grog is a good hc/dc/bc, no doubt about it but the effort it takes to run a roundwinning alliance is huge and nothing like doing the same for an alliance ranked 5th-10th which DLR typically have been. Maybe this surprised him, I don't know. I think they will move back to a smaller tag, but unless they try new ideas, it will never be the successful and good experience they had in past rounds. You need to evolve even in this game.

As for politics this round, there is no doubt DLR made a big mistake and thought very shortsighted when they made the apprime nap. Even when they _must_ have realised the mistake they didn't try and correct it, or even talk to the people reaching out. Heck, half the time I didn't even get a reply to my pm's and I know others have said the same thing Now they are out of the top5 and the questioned raised in this thread has been answered. Afaik they don't plan on doing much the rest of the round, hopefully they will regroup for the next round and avoid the same mistakes.


I overuse the expression; it's true. Other overused expressions within my personal arsenal are "by the by" and "indeed". I usually hate repeating the same thing in quick succession, so am quite annoyed at myself for doing so in this post :P

In regards to the launch/recall strategy:

If we're talking about launching and then recalling a tick later, only to launch again - in R34 it was never ever going to work against bigger alliances like Apprime for 2 reasons. The first of which is that Apprime were more active and could respond faster to changing situations. The second of which was that Apprime were bigger and didn't have to commit the same fleets over and over again.

The other thing that annoys me about most attacks these days are people's tendencies to recall at eta 6/7/8 if covered, with the hope that they can relaunch again in a few ticks and have better luck. Sure, if repeated often enough this MIGHT just get you a land. Meanwhile, every other wave has been covered as well because the ships that were defending against you were then freed up to defend against everyone else.

If you're trying to kill a gal/alliance, you pile on as many waves as you can and then you keep flying until eta 2. If you're covered, you're covered. If you recall before you've even started to occupy ingal def fleets then why the hell are you even bothering?

The problem DLR has - and I suspect a lot of other alliances also - is that they're stuck in a catch 22. The guys at the top KNOW that fleets should be flying for as long as possible to occupy the fleets, yet they order early recalls because they just don't have enough faith in the playerbase they're working with not to crash. A deserved lack of faith though, I may add.

Using these same tactics over and over again is like choosing between bashing one's head against a wall, or playing Russian Roulette with an SMG.

That is, however, just the way PA is these days. The majority of players are now casual and despite knowing how to play - don't enjoy the game enough to do so. Every now and then a new tag will pop up and the players in it will be re-energized enough to wtfpwn everyone, while everyone else just sits around being bitter about it. Alliances that have played for a long time seem to be maintaining their ineffective status quo of never winning (NewDawn) or are watching the effectiveness of the alliance deteriorate; CT being at the latter stages of decomposition and DLR looking like they're about to follow suit.

I honestly hope DLR does pick themselves up for next round. They're a fun lot to play with and when they're at their best they're awesome. They just need to find themselves once more and they'll be a pain in the ass again next round
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 11:41   #53
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
Anyway, the bottom line is that Grog has never had to listen to anybody else's opinion because he's used to people placing their trust in him to do the right thing.
My experience was that Grog talked to us before the round and discussed possible strategies, refining them as stats were changed and even changing them in response to comments from members.(!) Sure, Grog had the final word and everybody accepted that, but it's my experience that he listened and took on board info from others.

If you strutted up, flat out told him he was wrong, then he'd probably shoot you down as a danger to the 'hive'. If you either persuaded him with evidence, or persuaded a significant number of other members to pester him, he'd likely respond differently.



And whilst Grog had to run the politics, most members (back when DLR were 15-25 people in a tag) pitched in with BCing and DCing when required. Thanks to this, the DLR rounds were probably my most casual and most fun overall.

I guess that swelling the memberbase probably diluted it a bit. Maybe slower organic growth would have worked better. *shrugs*
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 12:07   #54
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Well, on the other hand, the only thing worse than listening to your uninformed opinion on the stats Gate, is to trust democracy to tell you what would be the correct course of action. So I'm not surprised the decisions were horrid.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 12:46   #55
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Well, on the other hand, the only thing worse than listening to your uninformed opinion on the stats Gate, is to trust democracy to tell you what would be the correct course of action. So I'm not surprised the decisions were horrid.
You appear confused by the difference between 'democracy' and something like the 'advised dictatorship' which is closer to how DLR worked.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 15:32   #56
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Dictatorship ftw man!

I spose Grog is in much of the same situation as I was in r30. Needless to say, I failed also! I involved people too late, and not enough bothered to actually get involved. Worst mistake I ve ever done was to play r30 at all. I didnt have time to do anything really, cause I had a constant stream of 100pms each day Horrible round, just horrible!!! I think I learned alot from my mistakes though ( dont hc )
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 15:39   #57
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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You appear confused by the difference between 'democracy' and something like the 'advised dictatorship' which is closer to how DLR worked.
No, these were people, greek demos, who indirectly influenced the outcome, thus indirect democracy.

Meanwhile advisors would have implied he had experts on hand to advise him, and the few there are who deserve such a distinction have not played in DLR, at least not to the best of my knowledge.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 15:57   #58
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

I've always thought of DLR as an alliance that can seriously embarrass pretty much any alliance, but in the long term would struggle under serious pressure. They lack the all round strength to maybe get them over the top - good politics this round might have done enough, but it wasn't to be. DLR have never really been the kind of group to play politics beyond "you hit us, we'll hit you back" and thus their actual experience in the level of political activity required to win this round may actually be quite limited.

Cardinal, for example, may not be the most subtle of people, but he knows the basic concepts of what he needs to do to win and for an alliance of Apprime's ability, that can often be enough.

Edit: In the end DLR play in a way that suits them and I don't see why we should question that.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 16:03   #59
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Sun_Tzu:
You just can not tell a group of people, in this case represented by a dictator, that they need to change the way they play. Even if you dreamed some excellent plan, there is no guarantee that the playerbase is willing/capable of changing. I am sure they know their weaknesses and strengths by now, and play accordingly. It does not look like DLR is playing to get a roundwin, but to keep their community together. Perhaps they come back stronger in a following round, when their infrastructure is capable of handling more members, something which seems clear to us that they lack right now. So in this context i imagine your approach to the man in charge was flat out wrong.

I know **** all about the history of things here, but for every post you make, the more obvious it becomes that you misunderstood the concept of a community, and was taken care of accordingly.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 16:30   #60
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Sun_Tzu:
You just can not tell a group of people, in this case represented by a dictator, that they need to change the way they play. Even if you dreamed some excellent plan, there is no guarantee that the playerbase is willing/capable of changing. I am sure they know their weaknesses and strengths by now, and play accordingly. It does not look like DLR is playing to get a roundwin, but to keep their community together. Perhaps they come back stronger in a following round, when their infrastructure is capable of handling more members, something which seems clear to us that they lack right now. So in this context i imagine your approach to the man in charge was flat out wrong.

I know **** all about the history of things here, but for every post you make, the more obvious it becomes that you misunderstood the concept of a community, and was taken care of accordingly.
In so far as you are saying I wouldn't have "fit in", you are probably right. It's not so much about misunderstanding though, as about the fact that I don't tend to confirm to the role of peon and will speak my mind at every turn. If the leadership can't handle someone challenging them, then I have no interest in playing for them.

If they do however listen, then I'll gladly act as advisor, and if the advice is taken to heart, things may begin to change for the better. I hope we're now starting to accomplish that in ND, however the changes won't properly take effect until in the future, and even so progress must be made while respecting the old culture. ND isn't likely to become an alliance like Ascendancy or Apprime, however that is no reason to say it couldn't become the best ND it can be. I don't believe DLR, meanwhile, is nearly the best DLR they could be. Perhaps largely because they tend to drive out critical voices from their midst.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 16:53   #61
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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I hope we're now starting to accomplish that in ND...
rofl...
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 19:56   #62
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Well, that's not quite true. Some alliances have a mutual long-lasting past, in which case they usually enter the round and go through it more or less working together.
Yes, as I said, jolly good friends nice and fun. Perhaps the tone wasn't good enough for "mutual long-lasting past" or "friendship between alliance officials".

Quote:
However, any political decision made during the round is made with a expectancy that it will be beneficial to the alliance in some way. Usually, this implies furthering their hopes of accomplishing their round goals.
However, the point is, it is wrong to assume the goals would implicitly be "climb higher on the alliance ranking ladder". "Having less incomings" or "being able to see out a calmer round" might be valid reasons even if they would a posteriori contribute negatively to the alliance's ranking. There's no valid argument for assuming that alliance decisions are made (whether they should be made or not is a discussion of preferences) based on "what's best" in terms of ranking ladder: the empirical evidence strongly suggests this is the case too.

Quote:
Based on the statements of DLR members, it seems quite obvious that at least the members do not feel they've accomplished their round goals, which frankly is quite understandable, since before the NAP they had a very real shot at a top2 finish, and now they're having to settle for rank6
Sometimes members' goals differ from those of the alliance officials. It happens. In the modern day game, I'm willing to put in that a lot of alliances will avoid wars simply because they're a lot of organizational effort. It means more BCing, more DCing (anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, yes), and generally more things that concern the officials. Members are less affected in terms of effort, hence their perception of the situation may be different. Which is why I'm personally slightly dismayed by the idea of members who are keen to wage war but don't wish to contribute to it more than doing what they normally do yet expect military officers to bust their asses off to lay it down for them.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 20:26   #63
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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However, the point is, it is wrong to assume the goals would implicitly be "climb higher on the alliance ranking ladder". "Having less incomings" or "being able to see out a calmer round" might be valid reasons even if they would a posteriori contribute negatively to the alliance's ranking. There's no valid argument for assuming that alliance decisions are made (whether they should be made or not is a discussion of preferences) based on "what's best" in terms of ranking ladder: the empirical evidence strongly suggests this is the case too.
You do realize that "less incomings" (which is quite similar to "calmer round", as either way you are probably attacking at a more or less similar pace) is quite conducive to "higher rank"?

Less incs -> less fleets used to def -> more fleets to attack with -> better roid gain vs. roid loss.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 20:52   #64
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Politics in planetarion are pretty simple if you want to finish as #1 tag at the end of the round - **** over the other contenders using other alliances to help while making sure you get as little incoming as possible. The stronger you are in terms of quality, the more flexible you can be with this. This was Ascendancy's big mistake in round 34 - instead of taking a hit and going for Apprime long term, we napped them.

If you're more concerned with #1 galaxy or #1 planet then basically, making sure you can just get heaps of roids from alliances that can't really hurt you and napping any alliance who can. But let me be clear, if you're an alliance HC with a tag big enough to win, this is a really shitty way of playing planetarion. You might as well not exist, or enjoy playing Doom on "I'm too young to die" or something.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 21:30   #65
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
However, the point is, it is wrong to assume the goals would implicitly be "climb higher on the alliance ranking ladder". "Having less incomings" or "being able to see out a calmer round" might be valid reasons even if they would a posteriori contribute negatively to the alliance's ranking. There's no valid argument for assuming that alliance decisions are made (whether they should be made or not is a discussion of preferences) based on "what's best" in terms of ranking ladder: the empirical evidence strongly suggests this is the case too.
Well, as a result of the chain of events that transpired after NAPing apprime DLR actually got more incs and considering the fact they kicked members from tag I don't think you could say they "saw out a calmer round". No offence to DLR but in what universe the apprime NAP can be considered a good move for them is beyond me. As far as I'm aware the main worry was that asc and apprime would team up on DLR. Given that we had no intention of doing this and the actual benefits were so low I don't see what it has gained them.
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Unread 25 Apr 2010, 23:45   #66
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

...

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 26 Apr 2010 at 00:05. Reason: I think we've had enough lokken trolling this round.
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 00:25   #67
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

His post was making assumptions that Ascendancy should of won round 34, while everyone with an inch of their foot inside the inner circles that round, knows that Apprime was the dominant alliance that round.

Lokken did not even play if anyone wonders. So every time he sticks his head out and make pro-asc posts like that i should be allowed to make an pro-apprime reply.
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 01:23   #68
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Who got kicked from DLR?
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 01:26   #69
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
His post was making assumptions that Ascendancy should of won round 34, while everyone with an inch of their foot inside the inner circles that round, knows that Apprime was the dominant alliance that round.

Lokken did not even play if anyone wonders. So every time he sticks his head out and make pro-asc posts like that i should be allowed to make an pro-apprime reply.
He was making no such assumption; he explained why we didn't win, not that we should've won. Lokken's post was not a pro-Ascendancy post, it was a post in which he used Ascendancy's mistake in round 34 as an example, whereas your post was just a troll, you neither responded to his point nor made any effort to make one of your own. Incidentially, your post didn't even mention Apprime.


As for the moderating, I should not have edited your post, I should've deleted it and PM'ed you. I apologise for that. However, if you have any further complaints, please feel free to talk to me about them in a PM.
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 01:57   #70
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
His post was making assumptions that Ascendancy should of won round 34, while everyone with an inch of their foot inside the inner circles that round, knows that Apprime was the dominant alliance that round.

Lokken did not even play if anyone wonders. So every time he sticks his head out and make pro-asc posts like that i should be allowed to make an pro-apprime reply.
Those are two different scenarios, war vs. peace. Different strengths and weaknesses come into play during these different scenarios, and in general a war-scenario has tended to favor Ascendancy more than a peace-scenario, therefor the assumption that Asc would have gained from a protracted was is quite reasonable.
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 03:12   #71
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Those are two different scenarios, war vs. peace. Different strengths and weaknesses come into play during these different scenarios, and in general a war-scenario has tended to favor Ascendancy more than a peace-scenario, therefor the assumption that Asc would have gained from a protracted was is quite reasonable.
What is it about the word dominant you dont get? Im annoyed about the belittling of Apprimes achievements. There is no reason to try making it look like Ascendancy deserved the win in round 34. They didnt, and it was well deserved.

I see no reason to even bring this up in a thread about DLR. Its not long ago since i made a deal out of this, where i stated that Lokken keeps coming up with these pro-asc statements that belittles Apprime. Here he does it again.

Quote:
this was Ascendancy's big mistake in round 34 - instead of taking a hit and going for Apprime long term, we napped them.
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 11:17   #72
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
You do realize that "less incomings" (which is quite similar to "calmer round", as either way you are probably attacking at a more or less similar pace) is quite conducive to "higher rank"?
No. I don't realize. There's plenty of people who have lost rounds because they've pacted an alliance that's inevitably outed them anyway. Counterproductive, often.
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 12:51   #73
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

respect DLR for giving the middlefinger to ND.
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Unread 26 Apr 2010, 13:36   #74
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Re: Will DLR manage to stay top5?

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Well, Asc is now pretty much tied with DLR, and Apprime keeps on closing in, so the interesting question at this point has become, how badly will DLR crumble? There's a 9mil value lead over p3ng, but p3ng have the roidlead, and if DLR keeps hemorrhaging roids as they have been, there may yet be time for p3ng to catch up.

So, how badly will DLR snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
Well, Apprime is now closing on ND pretty fast, and Asc keeps on closing in, so the interesting question at this point has become, how badly will ND crumble? If ND keeps hemorrhaging value as Sun_Tzu did, there may yet be time for Asc/Apprime to catch up.

So, how badly will ND snatch defeat from the jaws of napping to 2nd?
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