|
|
14 Mar 2004, 01:57
|
#1
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
English language question
This came up on another forum I read, and its made me curious.
Does the English language have a word thats equivalent to the description "is a necessary condition for"? In other words, instead of saying "A is a necessary condition for B", is there an English word that you can put in place of "is a necessary condition for" without changing the meaning of the sentence?
Clarification: A necessary condition is one which is required for something else to happen. For instance, being in Europe is a necessary condition for being in France (since you cant be in France without being in Europe). On the otherhand, being in France isnt a necessary condition for being in Europe, since you can be in Europe without being in France.
Last edited by Nodrog; 14 Mar 2004 at 02:28.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 01:58
|
#2
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
'a requirement of' saves you a word, but can be misinterpreted.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 01:59
|
#3
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
'a requirement of' saves you a word, but can be misinterpreted.
|
That's not a single word; the point is to find a single verb.
I like 'preconditions', but dictionary.com tells me its only a noun
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:05
|
#4
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
The verb 'to condition' means something slightly different to the noun 'condition' anyway.
Reverse the structure, to B <- A, and use 'requires'?
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:06
|
#5
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 940
|
Re: English language question
Being in france requires being in europe.
Having an abortion requires being pregnant.
requires?
I'm guessing I am missing something obvious here...?
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:08
|
#6
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
Re: English language question
yeah you changed the order of the sentence.
"A is a necessary condition for B" doesnt mean "A requires B", it means "B requires A", hence "requires" means something different from "i.a.n.c.f"
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:09
|
#7
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 940
|
Re: English language question
Ah ok...
I see what you mean.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:09
|
#8
|
NEWSBOT
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The enby cave!
Posts: 4,872
|
Re: English language question
prerequisite (sp?) ?
__________________
[20:27:47] <nodrog-aawy> **** i think my housemate just caught me masturbating
[11:25:32] <idimmu> you are a little piggy arent you
[13:17:00] <KaneED> i'm so closet i'm like narnia
__________________
Pretty parks and funky scrap metal things here
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:11
|
#9
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
prerequisite (sp?) ?
|
You could say "A is a prerequisite for B", but thats neither one word nor a verb.
"A prerequisites B" would be good, but the dictionary claims that prerequisities is only valid as a noun.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:12
|
#10
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
Re: English language question
'Allows' doesnt work either, since "A allows B" means that B can still occur without A (eg "being outside in the rain allows me to get wet", but I could also get wet by having a shower).
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:14
|
#11
|
Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
|
Re: English language question
in some contexts you could probably use 'preempts' but..
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:17
|
#12
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Permit works for a specific definition of it, but can be misconstrued.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:24
|
#13
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Permit works for a specific definition of it, but can be misconstrued.
|
Dont think so; its the same problem as 'allows'. A might permit B, but B might also happen without A.
For instance, if B requires any one of (P, Q, R or S), then P permits B but P isnt necessary for B since Q, R and S also all permit B.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:27
|
#14
|
overtired
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,900
|
Re: English language question
requires?
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:28
|
#15
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Dont think so; its the same problem as 'allows'. A might permit B, but B might also happen without A.
For instance, if B requires any one of (P, Q, R or S), then P permits B but P isnt necessary for B since Q, R and S also all permit B.
|
Surely that's exactly the same state as necessary condition though.
From dict.com:
To allow the doing of (something); consent to: permit the sale of alcoholic beverages.
To grant consent or leave to (someone); authorize: permitted him to explain.
To afford opportunity or possibility for: weather that permits sailing.
Obviously, there are strong and weak interpretations of it.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:29
|
#16
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
requires?
|
It's not a long thread dude.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:30
|
#17
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Surely that's exactly the same state as necessary condition though.
From dict.com:
To allow the doing of (something); consent to: permit the sale of alcoholic beverages.
To grant consent or leave to (someone); authorize: permitted him to explain.
To afford opportunity or possibility for: weather that permits sailing.
Obviously, there are strong and weak interpretations of it.
|
No. If A is a necessary condition for B then B ABSOLUTELY cannot occur without A. Or in logic (~A => ~B)
In the example I gave above, P could permit B yet B could still occur, therefore the conditional fails.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:32
|
#18
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
No. If A is a necessary for B then B ABSOLUTELY cannot occur without A. Or in logic (~A => ~B)
In the example I gave above, P could permit B yet B could still occur, therefore the conditional fails.
|
I think 'permit' is probably the closest you're going to get, as I don't think english has a specialised word for it. In it's strong application, it's pretty much the same as a necessary condition.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:34
|
#19
|
☆ ♥
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,489
|
Re: English language question
2nd "who cares?" reply 2 a nodrog thread - anyways back on top
my searches came up with:
PREREQUISITE & PRECONDITION
__________________
R3: LegioN (came #32) || R4: BlueTuba
R5: WolfPack Order || R6: Wolfpack
R7: Fury
----------retired-------
R52-R55: Apprime
R56-R57: FaceLess
R58-60: Apprime/Ultores
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:36
|
#20
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Androme2
2nd "who cares?" reply 2 a nodrog thread - anyways back on top
my searches came up with:
PREREQUISITE & PRECONDITION
|
They're not only nouns, they've also been mentioned as not applicable.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:41
|
#21
|
☆ ♥
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,489
|
Re: English language question
so what if they are nouns?
__________________
R3: LegioN (came #32) || R4: BlueTuba
R5: WolfPack Order || R6: Wolfpack
R7: Fury
----------retired-------
R52-R55: Apprime
R56-R57: FaceLess
R58-60: Apprime/Ultores
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:43
|
#22
|
overtired
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,900
|
Re: English language question
necessitates?
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:44
|
#23
|
:cool:
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 791
|
Re: English language question
How about "necessitates" ?
Being in France necessitates being in Europe.
Edit: damn, beaten
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 02:44
|
#24
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Androme2
so what if they are nouns?
|
If they're nouns, you're not going to be able to use them (correctly) as verbs. Nod needs a verb.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 03:18
|
#25
|
Ball
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,410
|
Re: English language question
Verbs are doing words. Make something up. A nods B. A restricts B?
__________________
#linux
Last edited by queball; 14 Mar 2004 at 03:26.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 04:23
|
#26
|
Old Man O Deh *****s
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: In spelelpee land
Posts: 3,516
|
Re: English language question
My vote goes to dropping Nod in the centre of Paris with his argument that 'You can't be in France without being in Europe', translated into French and printed in foot-high letters onto a billboard attached round Mr Ross' neck
Then we'll see if being semantically correct is better than having a good pair of running shoes.
__________________
Dead_Meat
You dont need to keep beating a dog to get it to stop shitting on the carpet
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 04:37
|
#27
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
necessitates?
|
I don't like that, it implies a relationship which is different than desired.
It imples 'makes necessary' rather than 'necessary for', you see.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 05:44
|
#28
|
edited for readability
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: for something...
Posts: 1,207
|
Re: English language question
B needs A
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 11:55
|
#29
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
B needs A
|
No. Why not read the thread!
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 12:35
|
#30
|
☆ ♥
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,489
|
Re: English language question
B wants A
B demands A
B cannotlivewithout A
B connects A
B jakirifies A
__________________
R3: LegioN (came #32) || R4: BlueTuba
R5: WolfPack Order || R6: Wolfpack
R7: Fury
----------retired-------
R52-R55: Apprime
R56-R57: FaceLess
R58-60: Apprime/Ultores
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 12:37
|
#31
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Androme2
B wants A
B demands A
B cannotlivewithout A
B connects A
|
I think you're cool
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 15:18
|
#32
|
edited for readability
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: for something...
Posts: 1,207
|
Re: English language question
MrL....
"is a necessary condition for"~ needs ~dfn as-A condition or situation in which something is required
like usual, again, you are wrong.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 15:27
|
#33
|
Love's Sweet Exile
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Living on a Stair (Now Sword-less)
Posts: 2,371
|
Re: English language question
No, you're wrong.
B is a necessary condition for A.
is the same sentence as
A needs B.
Which is not what the OP is after.
Read
The
Thread
__________________
--SYMM--
Ba Ba Ti Ki Di Do
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 15:27
|
#34
|
Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
|
Re: English language question
psa:dnftt
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 15:59
|
#35
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
MrL....
"is a necessary condition for"~ needs ~dfn as-A condition or situation in which something is required
like usual, again, you are wrong.
|
I like they way you take your signiture completely out of context. It's about as sensemaking as me quoting individual words of yours to say 'I hate all black people and hitler was right about the jews'
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 16:13
|
#36
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 579
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I hate all black people and hitler was right about the jews
|
MrL I'm shocked and appalled
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 16:14
|
#37
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciduous
MrL I'm shocked and appalled
|
Everybody loves hitler.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 17:42
|
#38
|
edited for readability
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: for something...
Posts: 1,207
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
[for] A is a necessary condition for B", is there an English word that you can put in place of "is a necessary condition for"
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
B is a necessary condition for A.
is the same sentence as
A needs B.
|
Thats fine, Exept
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
B needs A
|
where did you get that i was saing B is a necessary condition for A symm?
If B needs A, A is a necessary condition of B
Last edited by Qdeathstar; 14 Mar 2004 at 17:48.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 17:47
|
#39
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
|
Re: English language question
I dont want the sentence wording reordered, I explicitily specified that. It needs to be of the form AxB not BxA.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 17:49
|
#40
|
edited for readability
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: for something...
Posts: 1,207
|
Re: English language question
OH, it wasnt in your first post :-/
Apologizes
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 17:52
|
#41
|
Love's Sweet Exile
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Living on a Stair (Now Sword-less)
Posts: 2,371
|
Re: English language question
Muppet.
__________________
--SYMM--
Ba Ba Ti Ki Di Do
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 17:53
|
#42
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 579
|
Re: English language question
I don't think you're going to find anything, though I'm not an expert, the sentence lends itself more readily to being reversed. You're probably better off emailing someone who knows more about it than having everyone here just mess with the question until their answer fits.
Last edited by Deciduous; 14 Mar 2004 at 18:00.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 17:56
|
#43
|
edited for readability
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: for something...
Posts: 1,207
|
Re: English language question
I think then, the answer is no, unless you put the bigger thing last
If A was france, and B was europe...
A requires B.....
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 17:59
|
#44
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Welcome to the thread.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 18:00
|
#45
|
edited for readability
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: for something...
Posts: 1,207
|
Re: English language question
ohh, i almost had to let you out after that post... a post without a direct insult...you were actually right..
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 18:02
|
#46
|
Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
|
Re: English language question
Why is Qdeathstar attempting to give advice on the English language when he has trouble constructing a coherent sentence?
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
|
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 18:02
|
#47
|
Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
|
Re: English language question
idea: why dont we IPban QDS from the internet so we dont have to be exposed to the dubious delights of his personality and rational, well-backed-up thinking? Twat.
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 18:03
|
#48
|
The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
ohh, i almost had to let you out after that post... a post without a direct insult...you were actually right..
|
I'm very rarely wrong.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 19:19
|
#49
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 940
|
Re: English language question
After a while searching around oxfordreference.com I came up with nothing.
Now I am going to do some work which is actually useful to myself.
|
|
|
14 Mar 2004, 19:20
|
#50
|
☆ ♥
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,489
|
Re: English language question
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Welcome to the thread.
|
Where's the exit?
__________________
R3: LegioN (came #32) || R4: BlueTuba
R5: WolfPack Order || R6: Wolfpack
R7: Fury
----------retired-------
R52-R55: Apprime
R56-R57: FaceLess
R58-60: Apprime/Ultores
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
|
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:03.
| |