Planetarion Forums

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 01:57

This came up on another forum I read, and its made me curious.

Does the English language have a word thats equivalent to the description "is a necessary condition for"? In other words, instead of saying "A is a necessary condition for B", is there an English word that you can put in place of "is a necessary condition for" without changing the meaning of the sentence?

Clarification: A necessary condition is one which is required for something else to happen. For instance, being in Europe is a necessary condition for being in France (since you cant be in France without being in Europe). On the otherhand, being in France isnt a necessary condition for being in Europe, since you can be in Europe without being in France.

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 01:58

'a requirement of' saves you a word, but can be misinterpreted.

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

'a requirement of' saves you a word, but can be misinterpreted.

That's not a single word; the point is to find a single verb.

I like 'preconditions', but dictionary.com tells me its only a noun

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 02:05

The verb 'to condition' means something slightly different to the noun 'condition' anyway.

Reverse the structure, to B <- A, and use 'requires'?

MrPeach · 14 Mar 2004, 02:06

Being in france requires being in europe.

Having an abortion requires being pregnant.

requires?

I'm guessing I am missing something obvious here...?

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 02:08

yeah you changed the order of the sentence.

"A is a necessary condition for B" doesnt mean "A requires B", it means "B requires A", hence "requires" means something different from "i.a.n.c.f"

MrPeach · 14 Mar 2004, 02:09

Ah ok...

I see what you mean.

NEWSBOT3 · 14 Mar 2004, 02:09

prerequisite (sp?) ?

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

prerequisite (sp?) ?

You could say "A is a prerequisite for B", but thats neither one word nor a verb.

"A prerequisites B" would be good, but the dictionary claims that prerequisities is only valid as a noun.

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 02:12

'Allows' doesnt work either, since "A allows B" means that B can still occur without A (eg "being outside in the rain allows me to get wet", but I could also get wet by having a shower).

Phang · 14 Mar 2004, 02:14

in some contexts you could probably use 'preempts' but..

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 02:17

Permit works for a specific definition of it, but can be misconstrued.

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Permit works for a specific definition of it, but can be misconstrued.

Dont think so; its the same problem as 'allows'. A might permit B, but B might also happen without A.

For instance, if B requires any one of (P, Q, R or S), then P permits B but P isnt necessary for B since Q, R and S also all permit B.

1-X · 14 Mar 2004, 02:27

requires?

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Dont think so; its the same problem as 'allows'. A might permit B, but B might also happen without A.

For instance, if B requires any one of (P, Q, R or S), then P permits B but P isnt necessary for B since Q, R and S also all permit B.

Surely that's exactly the same state as necessary condition though.

From dict.com:

To allow the doing of (something); consent to: permit the sale of alcoholic beverages.
To grant consent or leave to (someone); authorize: permitted him to explain.
To afford opportunity or possibility for: weather that permits sailing.

Obviously, there are strong and weak interpretations of it.

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1-X

requires?

It's not a long thread dude.

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Surely that's exactly the same state as necessary condition though.

From dict.com:

To allow the doing of (something); consent to: permit the sale of alcoholic beverages.
To grant consent or leave to (someone); authorize: permitted him to explain.
To afford opportunity or possibility for: weather that permits sailing.

Obviously, there are strong and weak interpretations of it.

No. If A is a necessary condition for B then B ABSOLUTELY cannot occur without A. Or in logic (~A => ~B)

In the example I gave above, P could permit B yet B could still occur, therefore the conditional fails.

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodrog

No. If A is a necessary for B then B ABSOLUTELY cannot occur without A. Or in logic (~A => ~B)

In the example I gave above, P could permit B yet B could still occur, therefore the conditional fails.

I think 'permit' is probably the closest you're going to get, as I don't think english has a specialised word for it. In it's strong application, it's pretty much the same as a necessary condition.

Androme · 14 Mar 2004, 02:34

2nd "who cares?" reply 2 a nodrog thread - anyways back on top

my searches came up with:

PREREQUISITE & PRECONDITION

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androme2

2nd "who cares?" reply 2 a nodrog thread - anyways back on top

my searches came up with:

PREREQUISITE & PRECONDITION

They're not only nouns, they've also been mentioned as not applicable.

Androme · 14 Mar 2004, 02:41

so what if they are nouns?

1-X · 14 Mar 2004, 02:43

necessitates?

Obliterate · 14 Mar 2004, 02:44

How about "necessitates" ?

Being in France necessitates being in Europe.

Edit: damn, beaten

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androme2

so what if they are nouns?

If they're nouns, you're not going to be able to use them (correctly) as verbs. Nod needs a verb.

queball · 14 Mar 2004, 03:18

Verbs are doing words. Make something up. A nods B. A restricts B?

Dead_Meat · 14 Mar 2004, 04:23

My vote goes to dropping Nod in the centre of Paris with his argument that 'You can't be in France without being in Europe', translated into French and printed in foot-high letters onto a billboard attached round Mr Ross' neck

Then we'll see if being semantically correct is better than having a good pair of running shoes.

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1-X

necessitates?

I don't like that, it implies a relationship which is different than desired.

It imples 'makes necessary' rather than 'necessary for', you see.

Qdeathstar · 14 Mar 2004, 05:44

B needs A

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

B needs A

No. Why not read the thread!

Androme · 14 Mar 2004, 12:35

B wants A
B demands A
B cannotlivewithout A
B connects A
B jakirifies A

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androme2

B wants A
B demands A
B cannotlivewithout A
B connects A

I think you're cool

Qdeathstar · 14 Mar 2004, 15:18

MrL....

"is a necessary condition for"~ needs ~dfn as-A condition or situation in which something is required

like usual, again, you are wrong.

SYMM · 14 Mar 2004, 15:27

No, you're wrong.
B is a necessary condition for A.
is the same sentence as
A needs B.
Which is not what the OP is after.
Read
The
Thread

Phang · 14 Mar 2004, 15:27

psa:dnftt

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

MrL....

"is a necessary condition for"~ needs ~dfn as-A condition or situation in which something is required

like usual, again, you are wrong.

I like they way you take your signiture completely out of context. It's about as sensemaking as me quoting individual words of yours to say 'I hate all black people and hitler was right about the jews'

Deciduous · 14 Mar 2004, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I hate all black people and hitler was right about the jews

MrL I'm shocked and appalled

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deciduous

MrL I'm shocked and appalled

Everybody loves hitler.

Qdeathstar · 14 Mar 2004, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodrog

[for] A is a necessary condition for B", is there an English word that you can put in place of "is a necessary condition for"

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYMM

B is a necessary condition for A.
is the same sentence as
A needs B.

Thats fine, Exept

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

B needs A

where did you get that i was saing B is a necessary condition for A symm?

If B needs A, A is a necessary condition of B

Nodrog · 14 Mar 2004, 17:47

I dont want the sentence wording reordered, I explicitily specified that. It needs to be of the form AxB not BxA.

Qdeathstar · 14 Mar 2004, 17:49

OH, it wasnt in your first post :-/

Apologizes

SYMM · 14 Mar 2004, 17:52

Muppet.

Deciduous · 14 Mar 2004, 17:53

I don't think you're going to find anything, though I'm not an expert, the sentence lends itself more readily to being reversed. You're probably better off emailing someone who knows more about it than having everyone here just mess with the question until their answer fits.

Qdeathstar · 14 Mar 2004, 17:56

I think then, the answer is no, unless you put the bigger thing last

If A was france, and B was europe...

A requires B.....

MrL_JaKiri · 14 Mar 2004, 17:59

Welcome to the thread.

Qdeathstar · 14 Mar 2004, 18:00

ohh, i almost had to let you out after that post... a post without a direct insult...you were actually right..

Proteus · 14 Mar 2004, 18:02

Why is Qdeathstar attempting to give advice on the English language when he has trouble constructing a coherent sentence?

Phang · 14 Mar 2004, 18:02

idea: why dont we IPban QDS from the internet so we dont have to be exposed to the dubious delights of his personality and rational, well-backed-up thinking? Twat.