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Unread 15 May 2003, 09:54   #1
Al_zz
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Split the current newsscan

Into a defensive status scan and a fleet movement scan.

The defensive status scan show all incoming fleets on the scanned planet simularly to the curent newsscan.
It does not show fleet movements by the home planet
It does not show donations/research/constructions crap.
This scan would only available on planets you have ETA 3 or less attack or defence fleet going to.

The fleet movement scan shows fleet movement of the scanned planet simular to how the current newsscans shows them and is available at all times.

hAl
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Unread 15 May 2003, 11:30   #2
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As for the idea, only one scan would be needed, but what was returned would differ depending on who was doing the scan. If you have a fleet going (at appropriate eta) you see everything, if not you don't.
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Unread 15 May 2003, 11:49   #3
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Just remove newsscans from the game. Best idea ever, imo.
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Unread 15 May 2003, 12:00   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by SYMM
As for the idea, only one scan would be needed, but what was returned would differ depending on who was doing the scan. If you have a fleet going (at appropriate eta) you see everything, if not you don't.
That would be an interesting variant which I lilke as well. It should give simular results.

hAl

Last edited by Leshy; 15 May 2003 at 14:48.
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Unread 15 May 2003, 14:51   #5
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Spinner has already said that there will be drastic changes to the game, including scans, so it seems slightly pointless to make suggestions which apply to the current game engine.

However, what I have to ask is: why? Is there any reason for your suggestion, and if so, what is it? What effects do you think it would have on the game, and what do you hope to achieve?
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Unread 15 May 2003, 15:52   #6
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It reduces to ability for scan planets. It seems nowadays many alliances carry an arsenal of full time scan planets. Building reflectors is useless cause there is always people that can outscan you and there is quite a few players that do not even bother building the scan tree at all. If a planet can only scan for defence fleets when it is on ETA 3 that will mean that it requires a scan planet to actually attack a planet and makes a scan planet unable to serve a whole alliance with newsscans.

Someone, I think it was Hicks, even said that his alliance would not attack top hostile gals untill his alliance had access to newsscans. That effectivly means that scan planets now severly influence how a round is played. To reduce this effect that scan planets have on this game I therefore suggested this change. I must say that I really like the refinement SYMM made on it. That might be even better. Also basically less newsscans around makes the game less predictable which could be very usefull.

Also as I already siggested in another thread I would like to remove the military scan from the waves and from the galaxy pages and to move it to the galaxy status page. That would allow the use of the military scan only on planets that have incomings defensive or attacking fleets toward your galaxy. This would reduce the effectivity of milscans having two advantages namely making the game less predictable and reducing the effectifness of scan planets.

And thirdly I made the small suggestion to remove the roids info from the sectorscan. Also to remove that predictability that the game has now where everything is precalced and nothing is left up to chance.

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Unread 15 May 2003, 16:18   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Al_zz
It reduces to ability for scan planets.
I don't see why this is a good idea. Planetarion is a game of cooperation and teamwork, and everyone plays the game differently. Some people prefer to play as scanners - many people also play normally but invest heavily in scans too, and some people don't invest much in scans at all. Trying to eliminate scanners just results in alienating players who prefer to play that way.


Quote:

It seems nowadays many alliances carry an arsenal of full time scan planets. Building reflectors is useless cause there is always people that can outscan you and there is quite a few players that do not even bother building the scan tree at all. If a planet can only scan for defence fleets when it is on ETA 3 that will mean that it requires a scan planet to actually attack a planet and makes a scan planet unable to serve a whole alliance with newsscans.
Then make reflectors more powerful. It's much easier and doesn't harm anyone.

Quote:

Someone, I think it was Hicks, even said that his alliance would not attack top hostile gals untill his alliance had access to newsscans. That effectivly means that scan planets now severly influence how a round is played. To reduce this effect that scan planets have on this game I therefore suggested this change. I must say that I really like the refinement SYMM made on it. That might be even better. Also basically less newsscans around makes the game less predictable which could be very usefull.
I have no idea what on earth you are talking about here. First of all I don't see why you want to reduce the influence of legitimate scanners. Secondly, if scanners cause alliances to start hitting big galaxies then I believe that most people would approve of this - unless you would prefer alliances to hit small galaxies?

A further point is that the aforementioned attack on a large galaxy is still possible if the scanners 'piggyback' the real attackers. But since fleet slot limitations prevent a single scanner from doing so, it actually gives a reward to the alliance with the most scan planets (who are therefore able to piggyback all of the attacks and scan). Individual players may also make scan planets so that they can use these to piggyback their own attacks and get scans, where in the past they would have got their scans from a legitimate scanner.

Quote:

Also as I already siggested in another thread I would like to remove the military scan from the waves and from the galaxy pages and to move it to the galaxy status page. That would allow the use of the military scan only on planets that have incomings defensive or attacking fleets toward your galaxy. This would reduce the effectivity of milscans having two advantages namely making the game less predictable and reducing the effectifness of scan planets.
It would also give huge advantages to galaxies which have an in-galaxy scanner - something which is completely based on luck in a random round. If you land in a galaxy where nobody wants to be a scanner, you're going to have trouble getting all incoming scanned, and can't get anyone else outside of the galaxy to scan for you. Whereas those people who do land in a galaxy (by random chance) with someone who wants to play as a dedicated scanner will have a huge advantage. Also, it would make scanning Xandathrii planets for attacks impossible.

Quote:

And thirdly I made the small suggestion to remove the roids info from the sectorscan. Also to remove that predictability that the game has now where everything is precalced and nothing is left up to chance.

hAl
This is possibly the worst suggestion of the bunch. Selecting your targets based on their roid types is a strategic choice. Why remove it? Part of the strategic decision to choose a particular race is an understanding that you will need to select targets that give you certain kinds of roids - caths will want crystal-heavy targets, terrans will want metal early on but will need targets with lots of crystal roids once pegasi become the main attack ship, and so on. I don't see why removing a strategic choice in target selection is a good idea, or how it improves the game at all.

Furthermore, from what I understand of the r10 initiation system, I believe we will probably see planets with very unsual roid ratios - since you use crystal to 'build' crystal roids, metal to build metal roids and so on, it should be possible to have a lot of one particular type of roid without needing another - the dependency on metal for initiation and crystal for scanning is finally removed. This should make it much more worthwhile to select targets carefully in order to gain the right kind of roids - people who launch without considering this may well end up with roid ratios that don't suit their race, so there is a reward to the intelligent players who select their targets properly. I don't see why rewarding such intelligence is bad.
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Unread 15 May 2003, 23:36   #8
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heh

remove the newsscan
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Unread 16 May 2003, 00:35   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by ComradeRob
I don't see why this is a good idea. Planetarion is a game of cooperation and teamwork, and everyone plays the game differently. Some people prefer to play as scanners - many people also play normally but invest heavily in scans too, and some people don't invest much in scans at all. Trying to eliminate scanners just results in alienating players who prefer to play that way.
This makes me laugh.

hAl
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Unread 16 May 2003, 10:14   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by ComradeRob
This is possibly the worst suggestion of the bunch. Selecting your targets based on their roid types is a strategic choice. Why remove it
Because it makes every battle easy to calc. Knowing exactly what you can gain at what price before you go into any battle has made PA completly predictable. Removing the roid info from the sector scan and only leaving a total roidscount just makes the game a bit less predicatable and less boring !!

You can still select your targets based on their approximate ratio by looking at their ships. Someone with C heavy ships is bound to have a good C ratio. So a bit of intelligence will help you in still making a targetselection. But what you will not know even when looking at his fleet is how much initiated roids you are able to get. At certain attacks you might be lucky and at some attacks you might get a poor reward.

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Unread 16 May 2003, 12:43   #11
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Re: heh

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonas
remove the newsscan
How stupid are YOU.

Removing the news scan would make attacking utterly pointless, as your fleet could be owned, but you would never know it until too late.

Worst.Idea.Ever
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Unread 16 May 2003, 12:47   #12
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Re: Re: heh

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
How stupid are YOU.

Removing the news scan would make attacking utterly pointless, as your fleet could be owned, but you would never know it until too late.

exactly

brings some excitement and unpredictiveness back in the game, with newsscans its boring as hell.
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Unread 16 May 2003, 12:49   #13
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Re: Re: Re: heh

Quote:
Originally posted by Heartshunter
exactly

brings some excitement and unpredictiveness back in the game, with newsscans its boring as hell.
Just tell me.

How is it exciting to lose your entire fleet every time you attack?

fun init
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Unread 16 May 2003, 12:53   #14
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Yep, it is. I've always loved the period without newsscans. Thats how the game should be, risks and gambles.

And also, how exciting is it, when you get attacked and you smash your attacker? Pretty cool I thought instead of wasting bucketloads of E to know that your attacker is gonna pull.

And it hopefully would give more dynamics in rankings too.
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Unread 16 May 2003, 12:56   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heartshunter
Yep, it is. I've always loved the period without newsscans. Thats how the game should be, risks and gambles.

And also, how exciting is it, when you get attacked and you smash your attacker? Pretty cool I thought instead of wasting bucketloads of E to know that your attacker is gonna pull.

And it hopefully would give more dynamics in rankings too.
You just dont seem to get it do you?

What player (other than you) would play a game, for hours a day, to see their entire accomplishment (their fleet) destroyed in an instant.

And not once, nor twice, but every time they attack anywhere that has a chance of defence.

WOW. I'm sure this person will want to play. I'm sure they will find it great fun to be annihilated for no purpose.

Pretty much, remove news scans, and PA will be dead.

No one would play a game in which everything is a total gamble, and you can lose everything for no reason.
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Unread 16 May 2003, 13:04   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heartshunter
Yep, it is. I've always loved the period without newsscans. Thats how the game should be, risks and gambles.
You must certainly appreciate the suggestion about the sectorscan than. Less radical than removing newsscans but al least more gambling

hAl
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Unread 16 May 2003, 13:04   #17
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I get it perfectly fine, Dave.

You seem to miss the point here, but its pointless arguing with you. Please refrain from insults, thanks.

You'd be surprised how many people will agree with me, and go play some more games, plenty of games have similar risks or gambling factors like this built in.
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Unread 16 May 2003, 13:33   #18
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LOL.

Yeah, remove all scans. And while we're at it, recode everything and remove all strategy from the game turning it into a dice throwing game. We might just as well start playing monopoly :S

But seriously, i don't agree with you. Most of the fun in the game lies on catching a returning fleet, or outplaying a bigger guy by sending a somewhat small fleet first, and then calculate the defence he has and sending enough fighters eta6 accordingly.
You're proposing to render useless some of the features that make this game a little more challenging by using some strategy.
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Unread 16 May 2003, 14:24   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sergio
LOL.

Yeah, remove all scans. And while we're at it, recode everything and remove all strategy from the game turning it into a dice throwing game. We might just as well start playing monopoly :S

But seriously, i don't agree with you. Most of the fun in the game lies on catching a returning fleet, or outplaying a bigger guy by sending a somewhat small fleet first, and then calculate the defence he has and sending enough fighters eta6 accordingly.
You're proposing to render useless some of the features that make this game a little more challenging by using some strategy.
Most suggestions in this thread leave much more room for strategy. Though I must admit mostly for defensive strategies. With less information about roids or less easy access to news and mil scans attackers have less advantage. However you could compensate this by lowering the kill rate of def fleets and pds or upgrading the armour on attackfleets. If you have to take a bit more risk or are more uncertain about your possible roidgains it would be an option to reduce the overall attack losses a tiny bit.

hAl
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Unread 16 May 2003, 14:47   #20
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Or;

Just keep news scans!

Wasnt that a hard conclusion to come to?
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Unread 16 May 2003, 15:05   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Or;

Just keep news scans!

Wasnt that a hard conclusion to come to?
You have not read the thread at all have you. The suggestion was to split the newsscan not remove them !!!
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 11:25   #22
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All the news scan is used for is to see incoming, so you may as well replace it with the info stored in the galaxy status (single planet only, not the whole lot)
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 13:10   #23
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hmmm, i agree news scan's make the game boring. You get incoming and tons of defence, it doesn't have the same effect, or excitement, knowing that they will easily find a news scan from their alliance or galaxy. If everyone were more self-dependant with scans, it certainly would add interest, people would have to choose between investing large amounts in scans, or risk getting their fleet slaughtered when they attack. Think SYMM's idea for news scans was good, and would make things more interesting.

As for sector scans, i see both sides of it. I think it would be best to simply show initiated/uninitiated, and then the scanner can judge by the amount of resources built up and the type of ships the player has. It would certainly require a little more thought put into targetpicking.

As for mill scans, not being able to scan xan's for attacks would make them extremely unattractive targets, you'd have to considerably lower the xan stats to keep the races even.

Btw i definately DON'T think any scan (particularly news scan) should be removed from the game.
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 13:12   #24
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Also in relation to the sector scans, it could make the galaxy fund more effective, being able to deceive people as to what roid types you have, if you set up a system with your galaxy where you can trade appropriate amounts of certain resources to fool potential attackers.
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 13:56   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by ComradeRob
Then make reflectors more powerful. It's much easier and doesn't harm anyone.
Ofc it harms people, it harms people that do their own scans. and make scan planets all the more necessary.
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 15:27   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chax
Ofc it harms people, it harms people that do their own scans. and make scan planets all the more necessary.
I've suggested elsewhere that you could take into account a players roids in a positive sense in their scanning ability.

So : If you are within a certain range (e.g. roughly the same size as someone else in roids, although even score could be factored in) it's dramatically easier to scan. I don't see why it should be "easy" for a player to scan someone, say, ten times larger than them.

This would make it pretty damn pointless to have scan planets, unless you plan to build them up to the same size as yourself, which seems rather pointless....
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 15:30   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
And not once, nor twice, but every time they attack anywhere that has a chance of defence.
"Intelligence".

You could also have a "History" scan which shows the players history for 72ticks, offset for 12 hours (i.e. thus making it pointless for defence purposes, but still gives you an idea in previous defence calls, farming, etc).

Anyway, I'd appreciate a round without news scans. Combined with other dynamics to make rebuilding quick, it'd make the game more exciting.
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 16:49   #28
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These discussions are quite pointless since information will be obtained differently in round 10. No changes will be made this round. I expect there will be no newsscans in round 10. Information will be obtained by covert operations i think.
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 16:53   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Anyway, I'd appreciate a round without news scans. Combined with other dynamics to make rebuilding quick, it'd make the game more exciting.
Doesn't work with an exponential resource dynamic though.
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 19:26   #30
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If you pulled news scans it would never stop me or other scumbags like me from attacking galaxys which we have gal status access too. We'd never attack any *other* galaxy than the 15 or 20 galaxies we have a spy in.

So there, chew on that.
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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 23:12   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by KoRnNut
If you pulled news scans it would never stop me or other scumbags like me from attacking galaxys which we have gal status access too. We'd never attack any *other* galaxy than the 15 or 20 galaxies we have a spy in.

So there, chew on that.
Clearly the original suggestions allow you to newsscans your targets so read it again or contribute something that actualy is valid to the points made in this thread.

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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 23:15   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
These discussions are quite pointless since information will be obtained differently in round 10. No changes will be made this round. I expect there will be no newsscans in round 10. Information will be obtained by covert operations i think.
I hardly think so but still that could only be a newsscan in a disguise. It is not how you get the info but who is able to extract the info. Can it be done by a scan planet or by an attacking planet only that I wonder about.

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Unread 1 Jun 2003, 23:35   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heartshunter
Just remove newsscans from the game. Best idea ever, imo.
No one would attack unless it was massive overkill, escorted, or they had a spy.

No one wants to sit around for 2 moths building a planet, have your entire fleet killed in one tick and then pop back on the next day ready to do it again. The whole point of planetarion is that its not random. Throwing in some odds in targetting, or something so there was some room for variation is fine.

Like an rpg, but even in games like that its about probablity, not blind chance. Blind chance is boring, probablity might make the game more interesting I guess.
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