thoughts on Zikonian fleets

[Salomo]

Since i've been away from shipstats discussions for quite a while now, i've been looking for some good ideas for how to construct my zikonian fleet... and since i haven't found much on that on these boards atm, i thought i'd start off with posting my own ideas concerning their fleetsin the hope of getting some people to post their thoughts as well.. So if you have any constructive thoughts/comments etc. please post :-) And for a start, here are my thoughts on the initial zik attack fleet (i'll post for the def fleet in a seperate post in this thread):

Putting the low initiative aside, i've found the Zikonians to be a rather balanced race, somewhat like the terrans as they seem to have few large weaknesses or strengths. The most remarkable ships seem to be the brig, which seems to be the best de/cr killer around while still having rather good defense, and the marauder, the best frig killer, but also the cutter seems to be quite nice, being almost as good as the peg in some regards. The problem is, how do these ships fit into a nice fleet without weakening the overall fleet by a too high mix of shipclasses? And how can the stealing be best used to match the fleet?

After this very general glimpse, lets first look at the attacking capabilities. To make this easier, let's first focus on a combo to attack with the regular astro pod, as this is the only pod the zik's can build. The main objectives for an attacking fleet should ofc be to scare the targets ships and possible defenders away (while maintaining max cap), and, in case the target does not run, suffering as little losses per roid as possible by using good "flak". The pod is frig, so first we need some frig flak, which leads us right to the marauder and cutter. The cutter clearly has the better armouring, but as they target different clases as primary (and as both primary target classes are likely to be encountered at the target) we need to go a step further and see whether other factors can make a decision easier. For that lets take a look at anti-frig defences:

terrans will probably have wyvern (BS), harpy/phx (Fi/Co), and chimera (Fr), plus perhaps some hydra/Syrens (Cr) cath will have their BW's (Fr) and taras (Cr), scarabs (co), and perhaps even some guardians (BS), Xandas have pulsars (Fi), sentinels (Fi) and TBT's (fr), and zik's have marauders (Fr) and brigs (co). So all target classes of the cutter and marauder are likely to be around, though ofc one has to remember that fi/co are much more likely to be sent in as def than frigs. Unless when targetting xandas (and to a much much lesser extent terrans) there aren't many fightrs you need to get rid of, but usually people have fighters that will prevent cutters from targetting the co. So let's call it a tie and just use both? Perhaps some more marauders when attacking cath (to grab more BW's) and more cutters against xandas...

So this would give us our inital attacking combo of cutters, maruders and pods.

Next step: Secondary flak. Are there any De/Co class ships that protect the frigs? A brief look at De class excludes them as frig flak, since they all have worse armouring than frigs (based on the resource to kill 1 resource matrix ofc). On the other side of the spectrum there is the brig though. This formidable ship has better defensive values than the frigs, and could hence keep some harpies, syrens, widdows, sentinels, and cutlass from firing on your frigs. But otoh ofc this opens the attack fleet up to new vulnerabilities by adding co ships: Spiders would probablöy neutralise them nicely and vsh's would rip some large holes into them, but i guess for terran or zik targets they could still have some use, so let's keep this in mind as a plus point for brigs and send them along when apropriate.

So excluding stolen ships (because they simply aren't aound at the very beginning) this leaves us with a pure frig attack fleet with some brigs thrown in where it fits. Everyone agree?

[isildurx]

tbh i dont agree :P

1. Brig is the LAST killing ships in the whole game to shoot, thus having a large downside there.

2. U will probably encounter loadsa of battleships this round, so u should really focus on getting some clippers\buccaners.

3. COs aint always good enough for ur ally(thou mebbe u mention summat else i ur defence post).

My Zik fleet this round will be, Corsairs-Maras-Cutter-Clippers-Rogues

I will be a bit mean next round, and base my fleet on the BWs, and pegas i will hopefully steal making my fleet an allruond good fleet.

Pegs will(hopefully) not be too hard to obtain right i the start, so my FR-DE fleet will hopefully kick ass.

Corsair is one of my fave ships, and a natural choice for me over the brig.

[Gerbie]

You will want to take along something that targets Wyverns against a terran or he'll run of with all of his fleet except those. Same for Guardian, avenger/cath and peacekeeper/xan.

Brigs are no fun against a terran, if you'll need them you'll want corsairs as flak. If you have insufficient frigs against a cath you'll also want flak.

If you have any plans to obtain De/Co pods then you'll want to send along ships to capture and protect those.

[Salomo]

now let's move on to the initial zik defensive fleet. To make discussion a little easier and so that i need to type less, i shall name the resource to kill one resources unit a Tactitus (since when i started playing PA he was the guru of ship matrices and these units are the key numbers for any ship matrix) and shorten this with "T". So when i write "The Cutter has 2.1 T against the Vulture" this means, that you need 2.1 resources put into cutters to kill 1 resource put into vultures.

The goal of a def fleet of course is to kill the different pod types as efficiently as possible or to make the attack too unprofitable, so let's look at the different pod classes/races one by one.

Zik. Vs. Xanda:
The cutter does an excelent job against the vulture, having 2.1 T against it. This is followed by the Cutlass with 2.5 T. Both ships have the problem though, that they target Co only a secondry target, after the fighter which will probably very often accompany the vulture. However, the cutlass also does an excelent job against other fighters, killing them even more efficiently than Co class flak. And more than that, even in direct comparison against the vsh, the xanda fighter that also targets the cutlass, it does a much better job with 3.1 T for Cutl Vs. Vsh and 4.0 T for Vsh vs. Cutl. So Cutlas seems the way to go (at least untill enough BW's have been stolen to deal with Co class directly and efficiently).

Another thought might be using thieves as defence. While looking at the stats makes this seem like a good option as well, especially since they target Co as primary class, but somehow i have a bad feeling about them. Some opinions on that would be nice.

Zik. Vs. Frig pod fleets
The key ships for this seem to be the clipper and the marauder, clipper having 2.0, marauder having 2.1 T against pods. The clipper however targets Frig as secondary class, after De (which in fact probably wont be too much of a problem, since it deals with De frig flak more effectively then with Fr flak), and it is significantly weaker against frig flak. So marauders seem the way to go here, especially since you need them for attack anyway. anyone disgaree?

Relying on marauders makes it extremely easy for cathaar to attack with a frig/BW combo, freezing all your marauders if there are no Co around or they are all allready frozen. While this may perhaps even be desired to make the BW's come to you instead of hunting for them, if it is not desired having some clippers might be a good idea as well.

Zik. Vs. De (Terrans)
The two zik ships good against the destroyers are the brig (2.2 T against demeter) and Clipper (2.3 T against demeter). The brig seems to have the disadvantage that pegs target them, but that isn't terribly bad as brigs are better against pegs than pegs are against brigs. Clippers on the other hand are destroyer class, which is the wyverns primary target. Tough decision.

Wyvern kill clippers at 4.4 T, while pegs kill brigs at 3.8 T. Otoh clippers allow the terran attacker to use his wyvern for the attack while leaving the pegs without a vital target. Brigs can easily be used for defending friends/alliance mates, but clippers provide cover for other destroyer class ships (e.g. for the Rogue which you might want to have to steal pegs/demeters)... Both have good reasons for and against, and the only thing that should probably be avoided is using both in order to prevent the terran attacker from utilising both the pegs and the wyverns firepower... let's leave the decision what to use open for now.

Zik Vs. Cr (Cathaar)
Versus cruisers the choice seems simple: Brigs deal with mantis at 1.8 T and have the as t1, while the next best, the clipper, needs 2.1 T and only targets them as t3-all. The pillager also has Cr as t1, but it has 2.6T against them. The situation is similar versus tarantulas, the Cr "flak". Aditionally, taras target brigs at 2.6 T while it is much more effective against the others. Sending spiders against the brigs along wont help too much either as they havve to first freeze all the cutlasses, so the only other option would be BW's, which will be warmly welcomed by zik's in order to steal them.

This then also solves our choice between clippers and brigs as anti-dedefence. It seems very unwise to hve a mix of both, as that would perfectly match the needs of the terran peg/demeter/wyvern combo.

[Salomo]

Originally posted by Gerbie
You will want to take along something that targets Wyverns against a terran or he'll run of with all of his fleet except those. Same for Guardian, avenger/cath and peacekeeper/xan.

Unless the terran target has truly absurd numbers of wyverns i wouldn't mind him sending away everything besides wyverns. Wyverns need 6.4/5.6 T against cutters/marauders, so the damage they would do ould not boost the price per roid up very much

Originally posted by Gerbie

Brigs are no fun against a terran, if you'll need them you'll want corsairs as flak. If you have insufficient frigs against a cath you'll also want flak.

Why would brigs not be nice to have against terrans?

If you don't have enough frigs to break a cath often it wont be worth attacking since the fi/co flak you could send would most likely be frozen by spiders

Originally posted by Gerbie

If you have any plans to obtain De/Co pods then you'll want to send along ships to capture and protect those.

Indeed. Atm i don't see a real need for obtaining those pods though... perhaps i'm blind :-/

[Salomo]

Originally posted by isildurx
tbh i dont agree :P

1. Brig is the LAST killing ships in the whole game to shoot, thus having a large downside there.

2. U will probably encounter loadsa of battleships this round, so u should really focus on getting some clippers\buccaners.

3. COs aint always good enough for ur ally(thou mebbe u mention summat else i ur defence post).

Corsair is one of my fave ships, and a natural choice for me over the brig.

1. Thats the problem for all zik ships. If i saw it correctly actually all zik ships besides the corsair and Buccaneer fire after the ships they target.

2. Actually atm i'm wondering whether it is even worth defending against battleships. the wyvern, the most dangerous battleship, is only good against Destroyers, of which my fleet so far has none. The dreadnought isn't particularly great either, and more of a defensive ship which doesn't target my frigs anyway. Pirates and manowar's aren't that scary either... my only worry would be the guardian :-/

what do you like so much about corsairs?

[isildurx]

The good thing about corsairs, is that they are GREAT flack, LOW eta, and that they have huge numbers... :P

[Jaret]

My starting combo will be Cutter, Rogue & Pods.

Cutter vs. Fi/Co ... Rogue are stealers that target De/Fr .. stealing Pegusi, Demeter and Blackwidows alike ... they are eta4 with good armour.

Later I´ll add Clippers & Buccaneers to it and go for an all De attack fleet ... Pegasus, Clipper, Buccaneer, Rogue & Demeter.

I´ll add some Corsair & Cutlass for alliance defense, since these two fighters cover every possible podclass with the best eta possible.

[Chax]

the buccaneer kills pegs and dems, and if the terran atacker wants to send wyverns along, bye bye wyverns.
the rogue not only defends you by stealing pegs and dems, but also provides you with a new class attacingfleet once that defence is done.

attacdking terrans with bucca+rogue+dem is neat. clippers aren't so fun there as thye kill the ships you want to steal.

[Summerflame]

Originally posted by Salomo
1. Thats the problem for all zik ships. If i saw it correctly actually all zik ships besides the corsair and Buccaneer fire after the ships they target.

You can't compare that to the Brigs Disadvantage though. The Brig fires only after even all Battleships or all Steal-ships have had a go at them. Otherwise the Kill-ships fire Class after Class (mainly), so its only "natural" that the Cutter for instance fires after his Targets.
Nitpick: The Clipper fires before the Widowmaker.

[MAdnRisKy]

Sal the fleet you want is cutters clippers corsairs (and buccs).

I just cba typing ANOTHER long thread as to why, catch me on IRC and I'll get you a copy of some of the ones I've written before or go through it with you.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Salomo
Sending spiders against the brigs along wont help too much either as they havve to first freeze all the cutlasses

Spiders have CO T1.

[Salomo]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Spiders have CO T1.

hmmm... indeed, seems like you're right. Thanks for pointing it out, i somehow mis-saw that (is there a proper word meaning "to see something differently than it actually is"?)

[Salomo]

re-reading what i posted above i spotted some rather obvious mistakes where i have no clue why i put them in like that (e.g. putting cuttlass above cutters when dealing with xandas)... since the thread is "thoughts on zikonian fleets" i'll still leave my initial posts here and instead just make some corrections...

Zik. Vs. Xanda

Obviously the cutter does a way better job against xanda fi/co. Against all fi/co except for the sentinel the cutter has a better T value than the cutlass. The lower initiative of the cutlass doesn't matter as both fire after the ships they target and that target them, only the lower eta speaks in favour of the cutlass.

Cutlass aren't bad either though, so building them in order to provide your alliance with some fast defence isn't bad either i guess


Zik. Vs. Frigs

I will stay with maraudes being best here. Since Clippers will also be needed however (see below) there isn't really a large decision to make between these two.

Zik Vs. De (Terrans)

Well, i still like the brig a lot. It's a tough, fast ship that deals nice damage and can take a lot of damage for it's price. But clippers are even better armoured against wyvern than brigs are against pegs. Ofc that would change if corsairs are used as flak for the brigs, but so far i still don't see any real need for corsairs. Aditionally using clippers induces the need for the terran attacker to send wyvern as well, making it harder for him to get max cap.

Using clippers ofc makes it neccessary to also get anti-BS protection, since wyvern are rather effective against De. Clippers ofc allready target BS as t3-all, but that wont help since when BS are involved the primary/secondary targets of clippers will most likely be around as well. That leaves us with buccaneers and pirates to choose from. Imo using both would be best: Pirates have the better stats, and are nice to have in case someone really attacks with BS in order to steal some nice wyvern, and they are harder to deal with for the terran attacker, but they are so slow that they're more like pds. Buccs are more vulnerable to wyvern, but at least they can be sent for in-para/cluster def as well and at least help a little against De as well.

So against Terran De attack fleet that would mean: Clippers, buccs and a few pirates


Zik. Vs. Cath Cr fleets

Well, the brig remains the nicest ship for dealing with cath and it breaks my heart to take this little defiant ship out of my fleet, but it seems unavoidable after allready deciding against them in the Zik Vs. De part: On one hand using brigs introduces new weaknesses against a Terran De fleet since it gives pegs something to fire on, and on the other buccs, clippers and pirates allready target cruisers as well (eventhough less effectively) so it seems better to focus on this allready existing combo than to introduce something new.

So, together with the frigs attack combo, this leaves us with: Cutters, marauders, pods, clippers, buccaneers, and pirates.... which brings me to the problem of having no fast def ship for the alliance :-/

[MAdnRisKy]

drop pirates get corsairs still killing the cat cr and now you have a fast alliance ship.

there we go

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Salomo
hmmm... indeed, seems like you're right. Thanks for pointing it out, i somehow mis-saw that (is there a proper word meaning "to see something differently than it actually is"?)

mis-read, would be the technical term, or alternatively you ****ed up

[Salomo]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
drop pirates get corsairs still killing the cat cr and now you have a fast alliance ship.

there we go

oi, get on irc (or if you are tell me where, cause i can't find you)

[Jaret]

Forget Marauders m8 ...

Take Rogues instead ! They steal you some nicePegasus and Demeter ... as well as target Fr class ships ... same speed as Marauders ... better Armour ... and they are De class ... like your clippers & buccaneers.

Fast defense = Plenty of Corsair and a bunch of Cutlass.

They target every single Podclass ... Corsair are perfect Flakk for the Cutlass vs. Pegaus ie.

Both target FR ... which is going to be a quite common shipclass like always.

[Mi5]

zik fleet ideas:

thief/cuttlass/brig/corsair - fast, covers all ship classes bar battleships, nice killers in the brig/cuttlass and good flak in the thief (emp and ship )and corsair numbers. But relies to heavily on stealing vultures and can be argued that if you want a fi/co attack fleet you should go xan.

cutter/pod/marauder - efficient (nice firepower/armour etc) but weak against larger ship classes, predictable, can be coupled with certain other ships to give the fleet an edge, but not that great...

clipper/rogue/buc - nice killers, decent armour, owns the larger ship classes, reliant on stealing demeters and to a certain extent pegs (cutter can be used, but can be risky adding another ship class). Slight weakness would be lack of targeting on the fi/co classes which are the primary defence ships being sent..

tbh im not sure what i will do this time round, i will definitely have a de fleet, but i would quite like a fi/co fleet, but being zik and neglecting my fr fleet is kinda dumb, solution would be to build up all 3, but that takes time and could leave me with a lot of holes in my fleet along the way and i need to decide how to start it all off and get the roids rolling in....

Advice?

[isildurx]

imo u should just take it as it comes


if u steal BWs, concentrate on FR fleet.

if u get vults, go fo rCO


if u get Dems go fo r DE :P


and if get some of all, suicide them on my planet ;P

[Ditcher]

I have never played Ziks before but for me it seems that relying on stealing certain pods is not too smart. Great if you happen to cap few dozen demeters/vultures early on but I wouldnt count anything on it nor build my fleet around it.

Farming them.... well thats another issue.

[Iceaxe]

I think you're better off going cutter/clipper/a-pod with a few rogues so then you have a hard hitting fleet and can switch to all De if you are able to steal enough dems without much problem.

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Salomo
oi, get on irc (or if you are tell me where, cause i can't find you)

oh hehe that's a good point I'm never on netgamers, i'll try and idle in #titans