Current race selections

[hAl]

Spinner mentionedCurrent Race Selections
27 % Terran
27 % Cathaar
29 % Xandathrii
17 % Zikonian

Terran might go down a little bit still for people just having left the race on default and even with the worse stats the Xans look like favorites. Clearly the mil scan advantage still gives an edge over the stats that are a lot less than previous round.

zik seems to suffer from the armour reduction of their stealers. zik would probably have done better with an overall upgrade of their ships in armour and/or agility and a bit less firepower.

People seem to agree that current stats are better balanced on their choices of race for now. Ziks were never a big favorite so their last place is not all that surprising either. Terrans who used to be a general favorite in r6 and r7 have not regained that place which is not surprising as their no so popular r8 stats are ot altered. They gained a bit in stats on Xan and ziks so will probably do ok. Cath seem to profit the most of Xan stats reduction as they probably should.

hAl

[TheSeeker]

nice, plenty 'o xan roids....

[SpazMonster]

this pleases me

[Ultimate Newbie]

Cath is looking all the better!

bth i'm surpried how many people are still going Xan - i thought the race was between Terran and Cathaar with the other two lagging behind (zik a long way behind).

well, i suppose Terrans and Caths are good at hitting Xan in their own way.

[dabult]

I shouldnt read to much here...now i dont wanna be Zik anymore when people talk like that :[


ps. i was thinking of heavily FR/FI, as a scanwhore, is Zik still that much worse than terran?

[Colt]

imo, yus

[TheSeeker]

Originally posted by dabult
I shouldnt read to much here...now i dont wanna be Zik anymore when people talk like that :[


ps. i was thinking of heavily FR/FI, as a scanwhore, is Zik still that much worse than terran?

if you go zik, buy cutters, clippers and nothing else....

maybe some corsairs for alliance and friends... but focus on those 2 ships. should work good.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by TheSeeker
if you go zik, buy cutters, clippers and nothing else....

No marauders?

[-QS-]

Originally posted by hAl
Ziks were never a big favorite so their last place is not all that surprising either.

R7 were a lot zikos around! and a lot of top20 were either ziko or terran...

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Ultimate Newbie
No marauders?

tough call tbh.

since the primary ships you want to hit are fi and co, what fr do you want?

unless you can claim a LOT of fr of the broadsword variety (hard work)you won't want to hit terran anyway with an fr fleet, a de fleet yes but not an fr fleet, and a combo can be the worst of both worlds.

if cat have guardians they'll have tulas, so again broads are useless, and in fact your main ship isn't the primary stopper of the anti fr units anyway (actually the marauder would be) so it would be a case of out flaking them on emp res. Last i checked the cutter was more efficient for this.

against xan it would be a truely poo idea, as it would steal co which allows the vsh to fire.

and against zik?

well you want to knock out their fi, and their de usually, the marauder is pants for this ;-)


What often happens with the zik players I've spoken to, is that they are aiming for ships over roids half the time, under the belief that if they steal ships they'll get roid easier.
This isn't the case unfortunatly. If you have to steal ships to aid roiding, then by the time you have the ships they have more roids, and are growing quicker. You can never get enough stolen ships to keep up with what your growth rate should be.

so IF you can maintain the mentality that what the heck 5% of my score wasted is no biggie then fine, you pick slightly smaller targets and hope to get lucky, but basically, unless you can ship farm your ass off, forget it.

[Prince]

Originally posted by hAl
zik seems to suffer from the armour reduction of their stealers. zik would probably have done better with an overall upgrade of their ships in armour and/or agility and a bit less firepower.

hAl

hmm , Suffer? you'll find Zik can quite easily hold there own, any experienced Player with Zik can do very well this round, the Stealing Formula had a slight change making them more effective

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Prince
hmm , Suffer? you'll find Zik can quite easily hold there own, any experienced Player with Zik can do very well this round, the Stealing Formula had a slight change making them more effective

AND WHAT IS THAT CHANGE??????

because there is no documentation, except to say it's identical to killing except it steals, so FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE if it's not please tell us how.

[spectrum]

considering battle-reports from beta (c other threads at strategies) stealing is resources based now and not any longer armor based (therefore the armour reduction on the stealing ships ONLY isnt that important at all)

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Prince
hmm , Suffer? you'll find Zik can quite easily hold there own, any experienced Player with Zik can do very well this round, the Stealing Formula had a slight change making them more effective

Repeating what Mad'n'Risky said:

WHAT IS THAT CHANGE?!

is 'changing thief power' the same as 'changing the stealing formula'?

if it is going to resource based capping this is not an improvement for Zik. Ziks had good armor, and will thus be worse off than before..

Do ships steal more than they kill now?! Thats the only way i see the 'what you kill is what you get' formula to be more effective

[spectrum]

stealing:
as far as i understood (feel free to corect me!) is calculated (math-wise):
your stealing ships do damage to enemy ships. depending on that damage (and my damage the enemy ships suffered by non-stealers before) enemy ships will be destroyed/removed from battle.
afterwards you get this ships, but at the same time your stealing ships suffer the same amount of damage, the stolen ships provide as armor resulting in a certain amount of your stealers dying.

e.g. yoor thiefs kill 10 phx. this results in 10*10 armor. you thiefs will then suffer 100damage. killing 5 (100/20) thiefs.

this is armor-based stealing.
ofc a drop of armor will have impact on the amount of stealers you lose for getting ships.

this round is stealing changed (as spinner promised).

according to the battle-reports i've seen it is now res-based. which means:
killing 10phx results in 2.5k (2.25k+.25k) * 10 res you get (thru the phx) = 25k res.
you will lose thiefs worth these 25k resources (rounded down as battle-reports suggest) = 25k/4k (1.75k+2.25k) =6.25 thiefs -> you lose 6 thiefs.

now looking at this example you m8 consider capturing ships has gotten worse (losing now 6thiefs instead of 5), but
1) it doesnt matter if thiefs where at full health or had only 1armor left (will play a greater role on bigger ships ofc!)
2) due to rounding down you always get more(or at least equal) res-value than you lose
3) on former rounds you could lose score on capturing armor-high but cheap ships (like wasting 2 pirates on 1 guardian, as he had much armor -> same amount of armor build with pirates was more expensive)

thatswhy the extra-tweaking needed to be done (i assume) to the zik (lowering the armor of the stelaers) as they would have been simply to powerfull (to many surviving till there init has come in battle)


hope this clearifies a bit..

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by spectrum
considering battle-reports from beta (c other threads at strategies) stealing is resources based now and not any longer armor based

Stealing was armour-based in r7, for r8 it was changed to resources based.

So what do you mean again?

[spectrum]

i didnt play r8, but according to ppl i know who played r8 zik, it was told to, but wasnt really implented.
+
would u have any other explanation for the massive armor-reduction on the stealers only?

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by spectrum
i didnt play r8, but according to ppl i know who played r8 zik, it was told to, but wasnt really implented.

Nope. Stealing was based on armour in r7 and on resources in r8. Honestly. (And btw all this time manual claimed that stealing is based on resources )

would u have any other explanation for the massive armor-reduction on the stealers only?

heh maybe they will actually change the stealing to armour again without telling anyone?
Sounds illogical but that would be a good enough explanation for armour-reduction of stealers (because with armour as high as it was stealing could be very, very profitable).


Back on topic, imho it's weird how many people have picked xans for now - I know that a good player can and will succeed with them, but average and not so active players will be disappointed sooner or later. (Later = when miliscans appear).
The reason why so few people pick ziks is a bit unclear though I have my version why. Those who want faster eta / Co roiding fleet go for xans. Those who want De roiding fleet go for pegs / terrans. Those few who think Cr fleet can do well go cath. And finally those who choose Fr roiding fleet go for... cath mostly aswell, and can't blame them for that.
Ziks are being picked by those who decide on Fr fleet but prefer killing ships not widows and by those who want to build a De fleet and can be arsed with all the stealing work they'll have to do before they get enough demeters

[tokath]

well in r8 my breports were inconsistant with some definetely resource based and some that seemed more armor based. i intened to play zik again and do even better than last round which was rather good

[hyfe]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
Nope. Stealing was based on armour in r7 and on resources in r8. Honestly. (And btw all this time manual claimed that stealing is based on resources )

Thank you!

I was fairly convinced it was so; but since nobody ever said anything about it I just figured i remembered wrongly.

[storeslem]

Don't see why a Zik cant go both fr and de. Cutters and Clippers are arguably the deadliest combo, hitting all ships with cruel efficiency. They also complement each other very nicely, so a Zik can operate under any resource ratio likely to be out there.

Substituting the clipper for corsars may also work, worked ok in the beta.

Ziks Corvettes may also have a use, their stats are ok. The Brig especially, it might be a popular alliance defence ship.

The only really useful steal ship is imho the rogue. Stealing DE/FR, which are the only types you are likely to want.

well, my opinions on zik.

[Chax]

Originally posted by Prince
hmm , Suffer? you'll find Zik can quite easily hold there own, any experienced Player with Zik can do very well this round, the Stealing Formula had a slight change making them more effective

Explain this change!

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Chax
Explain this change!

I'd look for it in the section of the manual that explains how combat works.













Unfortunately, I can't seem to find that section. :/

[hAl]

Heard form a few players in beta that had played Zik in r8 they they were less efficient in stealing. They lost more ships for the same amount stolen last round.

Cannot really confirm it as I never played zik in round but mayby some Zik players saved a few round 8 and/or r8beta battle reports to compare.

Mayby some factual data will sho a light on this.

hAl

[Sun_Tzu]

I expect to see a lot of xandas getting their arses kicked in and finding their choice of race very disapointing, but at the same time I feel those who know how to play the race and have the presets to do well will do well with them, and we'll see a few very big xandas out there, no doubt.

Cathaars look good, they allways look good when xandas are reduced and priv-gals are about. No real suprise, though I was expecting a tad higher %...

Terrans flurish when cathaar flurish, as easy as that. And the Zikos have gotten their arses whooped a tad so it's all the better(besides, I have a feeling zikos will be divided largely into the very good and the very crao ones, so no huge threats from them). I'm thinking xandas can make a decent 2ndary target for terrans, using some fr to flak the pegs may well work if xandas aren't really aiming to build loads of pulsars(asuming they won't use broads).

Zikos... A serious suprise, though I guess a lot of people saw Spinner say they were upgraded and actually thought he might knwo what he was talking about...Poor saps. Ah well, with a tad lesser stats than last round I feel most people will fail miserably with them, but none the less there will be the real good ziko-players that will do good.

I still expect some shifting in the percentages, mainly more cathaar I guess, time will tell....

[K-W]

I just dont see changes big enough to justify calling the race that dominated last round garbage now. Nor do I see changes big enough to justify a ton of caths. Caths are still emp, and xan are still cloaked and nasty killers. Zik is still a great race for a very good player. I get a nagging feeling that alot of caths are going to get whalloped.

[isildurx]

Originally posted by K-W
I just dont see changes big enough to justify calling the race that dominated last round garbage now. Nor do I see changes big enough to justify a ton of caths. Caths are still emp, and xan are still cloaked and nasty killers. Zik is still a great race for a very good player. I get a nagging feeling that alot of caths are going to get whalloped.

i too an extent agrre with you, in the sence that i think quite some cath`s will have a very hard time this round trying to keep their roids.

And ofc xan isnt garbage, just that its not longer the 'best' race, atleast not 4 the not hardcore players.

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
I'm thinking xandas can make a decent 2ndary target for terrans, using some fr to flak the pegs may well work if xandas aren't really aiming to build loads of pulsars(asuming they won't use broads).

I wonder how clippers/demeters with a lot of cutters as flak would work against xans. No way will pulsars get through cutters if you send enough of them, but I wonder if the losses for zik could be reasonable.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
I wonder how clippers/demeters with a lot of cutters as flak would work against xans. No way will pulsars get through cutters if you send enough of them, but I wonder if the losses for zik could be reasonable.

Just wondering.. if the cutters would be able to flak against the pulsars..why would anybody send clippers along?!

If their random fire would most likely be wasted against Fi..Why not send a pure Cutter/pod combo in the first place?

[TheSeeker]

I think a zik should not send his clippers to a xan, ofcourse it has T3 * but wont damage fighters much and you will just lose them much and higher your fleet score.

only send clippers if you have dementer pods and pegs maybe

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
I wonder how clippers/demeters with a lot of cutters as flak would work against xans. No way will pulsars get through cutters if you send enough of them, but I wonder if the losses for zik could be reasonable.

I tried some fast calcs, didn't turn out too good, maybe since I had too much clipps and a bit too idealistic xanda but I tried setting it up with just cutters and astro-pods and it worked a lot nicer(tried cutters+dems aswell but since my xanda had bombers...). got roids for ~7k/roid(had 300roids/3.7mil score) and dealth nearly 2.8mil damage. With a more realistic target this should be pretty good cap for a pretty low price and the target will most likely run.

ps. Both comments above me either disregard the bomber and/or rely on being able to steal more pega than is likely with-out fleet-farming.

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by hyfe
Just wondering.. if the cutters would be able to flak against the pulsars..why would anybody send clippers along?!

If their random fire would most likely be wasted against Fi..Why not send a pure Cutter/pod combo in the first place?

Dunno, just I won't have many cutters I suppose

Seriously, such fleet would consist of ~80% cutters, 15% clippers and 5% demeters. The point is your pods don't get fired on by pulsars which makes it a bit more likely to get roids even if there's some defence and you lose a lot? (before the news/miliscans)

[Sun Pin]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
Dunno, just I won't have many cutters I suppose

Seriously, such fleet would consist of ~80% cutters, 15% clippers and 5% demeters. The point is your pods don't get fired on by pulsars which makes it a bit more likely to get roids even if there's some defence and you lose a lot? (before the news/miliscans)

first of all the bomber targets De without having to kill all the Fr first. and besides, with a 20%De any bc sould just send in enough anti De ships to make sure you wont get any roids(incase they dont have enough ships to blw your cutters aswell). so i think you should just screw the clipper when attacking a xan and send a pure Fr fleet as they have suggested some posts above

[hyfe]

well... if you really really want to use clippers:

80% cutters, a few pods, 20% clippers

No need to waste valuable demeters when your sending in ****loads of cutters anyways.

I actually can see the value of doing this though, it discourages people from defense trading just to **** you over: Since clippers target FR+ pretty decently, and will slaughter CR/BS if the FI/CO are moved away. Against some targets this might make a difference (ie hitting a xand in a Terran CR/BS heavy gal for example)

However; I'd still classify it as a FR roiding-fleet just occiasionally throwing in a few DE just for fun