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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 18:52   #1
Veil05
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Cathaar

2:3:8 Prospect Prestige Cat 907 591,676
2 1 8:10:3 Onela Scylfings Cat 740 559,403
3 6 4:10:7 Lt Ron Kerner Slider Cat 777 553,361
4 2 1:9:1 Groaner The Dry Salvages Cat 541 551,978
5 3 2:4:3 Dagobert Duck Duckburg Cat 825 538,765
6 2 11:5:3 Congregation Oversleepers Cat 664 538,399
7 2 10:8:9 A Saucerful Secrets Cat 799 532,296
8 1 11:8:11 Anagram Tailback Peephole Cat 644 529,291
9 1 4:6:8 Pariah Mimameid Cat 763 520,216
10 20 1:6:4 Jazz Dragonfly Cat 637 518,394
11 29 5:4:7 Olethros SoTG Cat 563 516,989

Slightly overpowered ?
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 19:19   #2
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Re: Cathaar

Cathaar usually get a good start. Some Zik/Ter DE teamups may sort them out, seeing as its worth teaming up on them, now that they are pushing towards 1k roids.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 19:23   #3
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Re: Cathaar

Standard good start for Cathaar due to their fast research abilities. Just wait for the other races to catch up.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 19:37   #4
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Re: Cathaar

Not to be more rude then I usualy am, but can people please stop complaining about the stats this early in the round?

1) You wont see how stats are until around tick 500.
2) Rounds are shorter then they used to be, and thus what we think was the pwn pwn race at tick XXX was not the pwn pwn race at round end.
3) I think we can all agree that whatever race is overrepresented in the top100s when round ends great aslong as its not another round of etd pawnage.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 01:51   #5
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Re: Cathaar

The other races are gonna be killed by HCT o.o
Get rid of f00kin roid researches 8[
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 03:01   #6
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Re: Cathaar

Who can complain of so many juicy targets ?
being Cath brings loads of incs, being top10 brings loads of incs... being cath + top10 is not a position i'd like to be in that early in the round.
But they must be taken out now, or their research power (fast HCT) will see them grow out of reach.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 09:22   #7
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Re: Cathaar

You're saying it like they're a unified group trying to run away with the round.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 10:26   #8
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
Not to be more rude then I usualy am, but can people please stop complaining about the stats this early in the round?
Im cathaar, so im not complaining.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 14:24   #9
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
Im cathaar, so im not complaining.
The cathaar on my channel was complaining something about spiders. I think it went something like "How is a cathaar supposed to be able to stop thousands of destroyer incomings". I think the answer is "If cathaar was supposed to be able to stop anything, what'd be the point of the whole drill".

Give it a couple of hundred more ticks, there should be zikonians climbing up, along with xandathrii climbing up. The mass flood effect that comes on (especially) cathaar from fake fleets is really nasty. I suggest you get your fleet analysis done.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 14:46   #10
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Re: Cathaar

and how hard it is for cath to get FA (I now?) done quickly o.o
i just think that the fast research gives them an edge over all other races (cause of HCT), cath shipstats are just fine ...
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 14:48   #11
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Re: Cathaar

Not very.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 15:10   #12
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyiam.PSC
and how hard it is for cath to get FA (I now?) done quickly o.o
i just think that the fast research gives them an edge over all other races (cause of HCT), cath shipstats are just fine ...
It all evens out in the end. Seriously.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 15:39   #13
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Re: Cathaar

On the other hand this is still nothing compared to how imba etd where O.o
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 15:56   #14
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Re: Cathaar

Caths doing well should (hopefully) turn it round on themselves if 'natural' roiding doesn't do so, as there should be more BW's around (as they really arent needed in attack fleets). I actually think Xan's will be the majority high ranking, due to the low amounts of terran/etd BS.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 17:11   #15
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Re: Cathaar

The research does give them an edge, an edge they desperately need to compete.

As always some dedicated caths with the right gals/allys will use those advantages to build crazy fortresses, while most caths will struggle as everyone in the uni challenges their emp and comes after their ships.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 18:22   #16
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Caths doing well should (hopefully) turn it round on themselves if 'natural' roiding doesn't do so, as there should be more BW's around (as they really arent needed in attack fleets). I actually think Xan's will be the majority high ranking, due to the low amounts of terran/etd BS.
Cathaar CR seems to be causing them no end of trouble? however, i like the stats just ive never seen a race pull away so quickly
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 20:07   #17
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Re: Cathaar

You like the stats, yet you're drawing attention to the apparent fact that they're imbalanced? Does this not seem a little contradictory?
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 21:49   #18
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Re: Cathaar

CathAAARRRRRGGG!1!11!
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 23:10   #19
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Re: Cathaar

if you look at average value/score/size in universe.

Xan is doing as well as cath..

So doubht this will continue.. suspecting like 80 zik/xan's in top100 at end.
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 07:15   #20
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You like the stats, yet you're drawing attention to the apparent fact that they're imbalanced? Does this not seem a little contradictory?
No? there imbalanced in my favour. So im happy with them, I just wanted to see other peoples opinions on the stats but I can see the appeal you have on giving your opinion on me instead though.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 01:45   #21
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Re: Cathaar

cathaar always drop during the end of the round. the fact that the top100 is swarming with them is therefore ironically enough an indication that at least cathaar are balanced opposed to xan and zik
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 14:21   #22
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
The research does give them an edge, an edge they desperately need to compete.

As always some dedicated caths with the right gals/allys will use those advantages to build crazy fortresses, while most caths will struggle as everyone in the uni challenges their emp and comes after their ships.
agreed, have hardly been able to keep roids all round tbh as fast as i get past 300 roids i get 3 waves im rather sure the top100 will look more zik/xan friendly in a few hundred ticks
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Unread 18 Sep 2007, 09:30   #23
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Re: Cathaar

Top 23 planets are all cat\xan, there are two non xan\cat in the t50. Exactly when is the race balance going to shift?
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Unread 18 Sep 2007, 10:24   #24
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Re: Cathaar

When the round isn't only two weeks old anymore :/

I feel this discussion shows up every single round :/
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Unread 18 Sep 2007, 10:48   #25
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Re: Cathaar

Only because it does.
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Unread 18 Sep 2007, 14:05   #26
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Re: Cathaar

If anything i think the gap is only getting bigger and bigger to and extent tbh.... but we will see.
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Unread 19 Sep 2007, 18:25   #27
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Re: Cathaar

It still may be too early to tell. Other races may have less incommings than Cathaar. Due to this, other races might be having an easiser time stockpiling if they have enough factories. Whereas Cathaar would be forced to spend their stockpiles to retain their roids. This wont be the biggest factor in determining the best race, but there are likely to be lots of planets out there with enough reserves to get them a decent rank if they chose to spend. The Cathaars that are likely to have a decent rank by the end of the round more than likely already occupy such a position.

I also feel the Cathaars will start to slide down the ranks once they have been roided and find it increasingly hard to get any kind of xp based landings. I would expect tp see Xandathrii begin to come through in a few weeks or so, due to there being less BS around atm.
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Unread 20 Sep 2007, 20:35   #28
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJN
I would expect tp see Xandathrii begin to come through in a few weeks or so, due to there being less BS around atm.
Agreed...
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Unread 20 Sep 2007, 22:55   #29
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Re: Cathaar

I'm kinda surprised at how well Xan is doing actually. Yes, just before the round started and the fw number of terrans/etd that signed up was surprising - and would definately benefit xan due to the fewer battleships - you would think that the high average score of Xans meant that any active terran would also be doing well because of it.

Unless Terrans are using more DE and not attacking Xans...
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Unread 20 Sep 2007, 23:51   #30
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Re: Cathaar

Looking at the top 100 of each race, Xan/Cath/Zik looks nicely balanced: The 100th of each of these races reside in the 325-375th range, which I dont recall seeing before. We are at a point, where any active player in the t500 or so with any of these 3 races will feel they still have a good chance for a decent finish. I cant remember if this was the case in previous value rounds...

To get 3/5 races pretty much spot on given the restrictions of the stats for the past two rounds is an impressive achievement by Game. As for Etd, well it was always their turn to not fair so well, but Terran is playable if there is a decent enough player out there willing to put the hours in to make it work.
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Unread 21 Sep 2007, 01:59   #31
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Unless Terrans are using more DE and not attacking Xans...
yeah faster DE have plenty of fat Cath targets; many Caths have built def vs FR and are wide open to DE, hence their cry about the 'weak' spider. The only Spider weakness is that's it is built in too little numbers.
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Unread 21 Sep 2007, 08:27   #32
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Re: Cathaar

Indeed. There's nothing wrong with the spider.
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Unread 25 Sep 2007, 18:58   #33
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Re: Cathaar

Still 28 caths in the top 50
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Unread 25 Sep 2007, 19:10   #34
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Re: Cathaar

and still more than 3 weeks to play....
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Unread 27 Sep 2007, 19:24   #35
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Re: Cathaar

really? 3 weeks, **** sake
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Unread 27 Sep 2007, 20:04   #36
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Re: Cathaar

You must persevere Alki!
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Unread 29 Sep 2007, 03:44   #37
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Re: Cathaar

Okay, this is utter and unreasonable Bullyouknowhat.

every planet in the top 20 is either Cath or Xan.

Cathaar has been overpowered beyond reason, only planets capable of hitting them are Fi-heavy Xans and De-heavy Ziks. others just get ther arses emped to hell.

The Cath Co is so overpowered, its not even funny, only way to hit em is by outflakking them with Fi, as Fr get also flakked by Roach, and there is no frakking way to hurt them, as if they cant emp you, they run.

Hasnt anybody noticed that by making Phoenix a Fr anti-Co and BW a Co Anti-Co killship, there is no ship that emps Co, and the only ship that is capable of killing cath-co without getting emped by them is... Cathaar.

Think about it: If you are a Terran, Taras and Scorps make Bs unusable, and only by playing chicken with Pegs you can roid a cathaar as Ter, but gues what? Ter was so nerfed, there is barely any left.

And if you are Etd: Bs is useless, for reasons stated above. Co, its killed by BWs. so no hitting caths with co

Zik: Fr are emped to hell by vipers and Roach, so no way to go there
only by outflakking the Spider you can roid Cath as a Zik

Xan: Fr are outemped by viper and roach, as stated before
Only Fi has a chance of getting through the emp.

Cath: with Co, you hit the Widow-Wall
With Cr: its all about Scarabs and Fr-flak vs Roach.

So effectively, there are two races with one class each capable to roiding a cath. and surpisingly, the first non-cath or Xan outside of t20, is Zik.

Also, i got the honor of being one of these t20 Xans, even though i am in a small alli (F-Crew Ftw!) and that is only because i lucked out like a madman, by oversleeping my landind on one of the largest caths with 5k thiefs in def. How did i luck out you ask? 'the cath had its Co out.



So all in all, i gotta say this: overpowered Cath has killed the fun in the game, do not blame eXi for taking advantage on this.

wtg Game, i hope you wont be getting ten miles closer to the stat-making for next round. The staleness of this round is in you, and all cath-defenders ou there can just shut up and try to inc a bigger cath themselves.

EDIT': Hude, noted and removed. the rest stands tho

Last edited by DonTirri; 29 Sep 2007 at 04:03.
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Unread 29 Sep 2007, 04:02   #38
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
oh, and i also heard that Game was also playing Cath.
you heard wrong
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Unread 29 Sep 2007, 05:36   #39
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Re: Cathaar

So cath can be roided by 3 fleets: cat co (playing chicken with BWs can be great fun), zik de and ter de. With a possibility for xan fi against cr-heavy cats.

How is this unbalanced?

And who the hell (except for you) is blaming eXi for (apparently) all picking cat?
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Unread 29 Sep 2007, 05:41   #40
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Re: Cathaar

Because DE is about the easiest fleet to get defence against, thus roiding Cathaars who have a clue is VERY hard.
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Unread 29 Sep 2007, 05:56   #41
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Re: Cathaar

*sigh* A cath player deffin a cath. (atleast your "playing chicken" line suggests you are a cath.)

you totally missed my point: There isnt a SINGLE fleet-type a cath cannot self cover vs, or havent you ever tried to inc a cath bigger that you?

Sure. the smaller cath can be bashed to hell as usual. but unlike the other races, biggest cats are totally untouchable. hell, even i as a Xan could roid the biggest Xan out there if i didnt mind little losses, but i cant even think about touching a similarily sized Cath, due to the fact that my fi are emp'd by beetles, unless i am lucky and my Fr... well, roach n viper.

also, you fail to see one big thing: There isnt a single way for a non-cath to def vs a cath-co inc, without being forced to massively outflak em, which usually means that you need around twice the fleetvalue in def to stop em, think about it:

Beetle, Viper and BW target every anti-co there is, with Beetle and Viper emping them to hell before they can even act.

but with other races, you can mostly cover the incs with equal or half of the fleetvalue, and with every other fleet, there is either a ship that has a lower init, or a no-loss defship.

and, to your point about Cath vulnureable to De.

Well, amazingly, Zik and Ter De is the weaker fleet of the race, with FR being much more economical and effective than De with ziks and Bs being the real workhorse of Ter, thx to Suckyness of Spectre and pirate as defships.

And also, Terrans are very few in number, so it doesnt make them viable.

And Cath Co roiding Cath. Hell, wasnt Xan modded so that Xan cant roid themselves? Honestly, i think Game tried to change too many things at once, failing miserably.

and you forgot to mention, Cath can basically roid EVERY RACE THERE IS, WITHOUT LOSSES.

And me blaming eXi for going all cat, i never implied such. eXi just made sure that their strongest Cath have ziks to def vs the Fi and Xan to def vs the fr in their gals, if you look at it, you might find out that every top cath has a zik or Xan or both ingal.

And i was there during the betatesting of stats, i saw multiple persons telling Game that cath was overpowered and that its ridiculous to have three attackships on podclass, but he just ignored it. And guess what, ppl said that Ghost was useless. well, at this very moment i would kill for some De-flak for my spectres.

so i still think Game spoiled this round with effed up stats, and believe me, i am not the only one who thinks that Cath is WAAAAY overpowered.

Hell, i am one of the strongets non-caths out there, and i still needed frakking luck to land on one of em. maybe its just me, but something doesnt seem right here
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Unread 29 Sep 2007, 06:20   #42
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
*sigh* A cath player deffin a cath. (atleast your "playing chicken" line suggests you are a cath.)

you totally missed my point: There isnt a SINGLE fleet-type a cath cannot self cover vs, or havent you ever tried to inc a cath bigger that you?
Yes, I did. Got some nice XP, too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
Sure. the smaller cath can be bashed to hell as usual. but unlike the other races, biggest cats are totally untouchable. hell, even i as a Xan could roid the biggest Xan out there if i didnt mind little losses, but i cant even think about touching a similarily sized Cath, due to the fact that my fi are emp'd by beetles, unless i am lucky and my Fr... well, roach n viper.
Firstly, that's a universal problem with big planets, and it aids cath more severly than other races. Nothing new here. Secondly, co-op.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
also, you fail to see one big thing: There isnt a single way for a non-cath to def vs a cath-co inc, without being forced to massively outflak em, which usually means that you need around twice the fleetvalue in def to stop em, think about it:

Beetle, Viper and BW target every anti-co there is, with Beetle and Viper emping them to hell before they can even act.

but with other races, you can mostly cover the incs with equal or half of the fleetvalue, and with every other fleet, there is either a ship that has a lower init, or a no-loss defship.

and you forgot to mention, Cath can basically roid EVERY RACE THERE IS, WITHOUT LOSSES.
Agreed. The fact that there is no viable anti-co defence ship (except mass BW) makes cat co rather strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
and, to your point about Cath vulnureable to De.

Well, amazingly, Zik and Ter De is the weaker fleet of the race, with FR being much more economical and effective than De with ziks and Bs being the real workhorse of Ter, thx to Suckyness of Spectre and pirate as defships.

And also, Terrans are very few in number, so it doesnt make them viable.
I am a cat and I only have a cr fleet. Why? Because there's a shitload of cats out there just waiting to be roided with roach/hornet. Ter and zik can do the exact same thing, with even greater efficiency. And they do, in fact. Out of the 15 times I've gotten roided, I probably got hit by a de fleet 10 times. So basically, this is a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
And Cath Co roiding Cath. Hell, wasnt Xan modded so that Xan cant roid themselves?
Your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
And me blaming eXi for going all cat, i never implied such. eXi just made sure that their strongest Cath have ziks to def vs the Fi and Xan to def vs the fr in their gals, if you look at it, you might find out that every top cath has a zik or Xan or both ingal.

And i was there during the betatesting of stats, i saw multiple persons telling Game that cath was overpowered and that its ridiculous to have three attackships on podclass, but he just ignored it. And guess what, ppl said that Ghost was useless. well, at this very moment i would kill for some De-flak for my spectres.

so i still think Game spoiled this round with effed up stats, and believe me, i am not the only one who thinks that Cath is WAAAAY overpowered.

Hell, i am one of the strongets non-caths out there, and i still needed frakking luck to land on one of em. maybe its just me, but something doesnt seem right here
If you look a bit further than the top20, you'll see that there are currently MORE xans than cats in the top100. Meanwhile, zik numbers steadily rise, 21 of them in the top100. By round end, I expect there to be an equal number of cat/xan/zik planets in the top100. This is already the case in the top300, which contains 85/84/86 cat/xan/zik planets. Ter lags behind, but not for lack of roiding options.

So yes, cat is strong. But overpowered? No.
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Unread 29 Sep 2007, 07:26   #43
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Re: Cathaar

Honestly guys, it is still too early to totally call this round. While it seems likely that a cath will win the round at this point and quite possibly dominate the t10, that fact in and of itself does not mean caths are grossly overpowered. There are problems with caths, some of them related to the fact that Game decided to adapt my flawed cath race to his stats, and some of them related to the uneven attack advantage of cath CO as well as other things. This doesn't mean they are hideously out of balance by themselves, you have to look at the whole set of stats rather then just one race. The bigger questions are how good of a chance does each race have at winning the round, how balanced are the stats as to be conducive to a roughly even race selection by players, and do the stats allow for even the largest players to be roided from time to time?

In every round the top players are going to be able to fortress to some degree, it is simply the nature of the combat engine, so to complain that the top players are fortressed is not to complain about the stats so much as to complain about how the game fundamentally works. Being completely unable to hit the top players is a problem, but there are still 3 weeks left, so I still think it is premature to come to conclusions on how fortressing will pan out. As to the overall balance between races this can never been accurately measured until the round is over. While the current trend is for cath/xan dominance there is still plenty of time left for zik to catch up (ter and etd do seem to be screwed at this point but you never know), and so rather then to continue speculating about race balances lets let the data at the end of the round, rather then subjective personal experiences dictate the success or failure of the stats.
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Unread 2 Oct 2007, 12:52   #44
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
And me blaming eXi for going all cat, i never implied such. eXi just made sure that their strongest Cath have ziks to def vs the Fi and Xan to def vs the fr in their gals, if you look at it, you might find out that every top cath has a zik or Xan or both ingal.
Surely this is just good tactics by Exi, not related to stats at all....
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Unread 2 Oct 2007, 13:26   #45
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
if you look at it, you might find out that every top cath has a zik or Xan or both ingal.
What? Top planets have other top planets in the same galaxies from different races. This is hardly earth-shattering news.
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Unread 2 Oct 2007, 14:38   #46
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Re: Cathaar

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonTirri
if you look at it, you might find out that every top cath has a zik or Xan or both ingal.
Given that most galaxies have at least 12 planets in, and that together Xans and Ziks make up 47% of the entire universe, it's not really a surprise that you're not seeing Cath/Ter/Etd-only galaxies....
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Unread 3 Oct 2007, 19:15   #47
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Re: Cathaar

The only thing wrong with cath atm is the faster research !
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Unread 6 Oct 2007, 09:38   #48
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Re: Cathaar

We can't measure stats out from the top10...
Everyone in the top10 are flag planets who gets def day out and in. No mather what race they are.

So that would be wrong.

It is getting fewer cath's in the top100 and xan/zik is raising. Like I said longer up in the thread.
Cath co are maybe very strong. But you very often run into bw's as def. And you need a shitload of em to land an attack.

Bw's are good yes, but they are really really expensive
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Unread 6 Oct 2007, 10:36   #49
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Re: Cathaar

Caths are imo the best race statswise, however they cant be played by anyone since they naturally attract the most incoming and they rely on activity and a decent ally to survive. If you are in a good gal and ally you will be huuuuge as a cath though.

One thing that is fking funny is that 40% of the planets from rank 100 to 200 are all ziks, quite interesting.
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Unread 6 Oct 2007, 15:46   #50
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Re: Cathaar

caths are supposed to be good but the bw's not beeing emp kinda screw over the abillity to do caths with co making the stats a bit odd
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