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Unread 24 May 2007, 20:23   #51
Allfather
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

wp has 1 top 10.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 20:29   #52
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
As far as wars are concerned, towards the end of a round players not in the t200 tend to become almost entirely useless. Players in the top 10/20/100 become rather bloody useful. I don't know how close WP are to Asc in any of those ranks, but if there's a decent gap between the two then I'm sure Asc is the more powerful alliance.

Everyone seems to have overlooked that Wp's average score is 400k higher than that of Ascendancy's, not to mention we also have a much higher average value. Whilst not having as many top 100 planets as the other allies beacause of the growth slowdown during the wars, i can assure u we have more than enough members 1-200 to be considered the stronger force.
Tbh i credit this much higher value and score on the fact that we seem to be one of the few allies that hasnt been crashing fleets left right and centre for roids. Yes we may have lost heavy roids some nights, but we always kept our ships under strict watch from Nitina and any crashers were punished and publicly flogged so they learnt there lesson fast. In any war u need to keep ships if u plan on any conitinued assualt and Angels and ct just didnt seem to do that as well as us.


Any way back to banner development, exoect to see some nice wp banners popping up all over uni :P
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Unread 24 May 2007, 20:40   #53
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Everyone seems to have overlooked that Wp's average score is 400k higher than that of Ascendancy's, not to mention we also have a much higher average value.
You seem to overlook the fact that out of ascendancys 60 members in tag, I am willing to be there are at least 20 who are just as shit as myself.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 20:41   #54
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

That i doubt.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 20:43   #55
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Looking at the ranks t100-200 I'm a little surprised just how close they are in score/value to the t100. A few extra members with 700k+ more might not make such a big difference. In this round, especially as WP hasn't shed much blood (and lost many members as a result) you might just be right!

Still, it wouldn't take many top planets in top galaxies to put you up against the wall.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 20:44   #56
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Actually I just logged in, you are probably right.

But nevertheless.

If Ascendancy was an alliance in the conventional sense. i.e anal if you disappear for a few days, or anal if you fancy attacking when you feel like it, or anal if you crash your fleet, or anal if you indeed defend in your galaxy or anal if you attack who you want, then ascendancys average score would be higher, and I dare say they would be higher up the rankings.

It's because Ascendancy isn't anal, in fact if it was it wouldn't be ascendancy. It would be CT or Angels or dare I say it Wolfpack. The fact of the matter is Ascendancy doesn't crack the whip, it doesn't hold your hand. You do what you do, when you do, how you want to.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 21:56   #57
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

It's a retirement home for veterans .
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Unread 24 May 2007, 22:14   #58
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
I guess Asc noticed this at a point where it felt it wasn't going to win regardless and not surprisingly it prioritised other things above 2nd place.
We did indeed. Noone expected to do this good. Least of all myself who's currently t20 with a shot at t10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
You seem to overlook the fact that out of ascendancys 60 members in tag, I am willing to be there are at least 20 who are just as shit as myself.
Correct. For example, if WP has 70 most active members intag out of a 100, we have 30-40 actives out of a 60. Only difference is our inactives are intag. If not our avg probably would be like 400k above WP's.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 22:24   #59
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
The top players become a disadvantage? How is one looking at it to come to that conclusion? NAPs? I don't doubt that Ascendancy could play that game just as hard as WolfPack could.
Well im sure if there broke out a war, WP would have plenty of t10 planets to hit, while you would sit around your campfire, holding hands, singing cumbaja and crying..

And if i got the right image of ascendancy (by looking at boards), you would struggle to defend against a massive fleetcatch.. There's your disadvantage...
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Unread 24 May 2007, 22:50   #60
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Define massive. 2 alliances? Perhaps even 3? But then wouldn't these 3 alliances do much better to focus their attention towards taking down the #1, rather than bicker about who gets a spot in the top5?
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Unread 24 May 2007, 22:52   #61
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
Well im sure if there broke out a war, WP would have plenty of t10 planets to hit..
It's probably worth pointing out that I personally don't play. That's a really odd perspective to take. You're suggesting that because most of Ascendancy's roids are with just a few players, that would make WP's job easier. I disagree. Having roids all in one place is only a bad thing when that one place isn't a strong galaxy, a very* active player and a large stockpile. The same players could tie up large numbers of WP fleets for fun.

Fleetcatches haven't won a war since I remember, they're irrelevant. Especially now with the way Zik's changed.

*I use this word with caution
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Unread 24 May 2007, 23:05   #62
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

chances for taking down the #1 are rather slim atm, but why not teach another ally with a seriously oversized ego a lesson instead?
and i'm sure it wouldnt take three alliances to do that. just one with some organisation, if anybody can be bothered.
i would indeed like to see how asc behaves like in a war-like scenario. they would have the value they hoarded, the stockpiles and the ingal def as advantages, but lack of numbers when it comes to really active ppl as their downfall. we have seen their strategy is very effective if they don't get involved politically (aka fencesitting) but how well does their strategy work with a full scale war?
anybody care to put it to a test?
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Unread 24 May 2007, 23:17   #63
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Are the rounds not 2 months any more? How long are they?
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Unread 24 May 2007, 23:24   #64
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

No idea, ends next Friday though.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 23:58   #65
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
we have seen their strategy is very effective if they don't get involved politically (aka fencesitting)
I fail to see how you say Ascendancy are fencesitting.

Maybe you would like to get out your planetarion dictionary. Such alliances who have famously fencesat in the past have been NoS, ToF, Wolfpack and many others.

Ascendancy my dear attacks whom it wants, when it wants. That most certainly is not fencesitting.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 00:36   #66
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Are the rounds not 2 months any more? How long are they?
I think this one was only 7 weeks.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 00:53   #67
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
I find it to be quite silly that what i'd consider to be the most powerful alliance is in fourth place, but it might well be the alliance and not the game at fault. Presumably the alliance could've picked up on this earlier and done a bit more with its power. I guess Asc noticed this at a point where it felt it wasn't going to win regardless and not surprisingly it prioritised other things above 2nd place.
I really couldn't care less if we came second or ninety third. After all, and I think you missed this, in r17 we kicked everyone out of tag and got idi to sign up a new planet and join, thereby ending with the lowest ranked alliance in Planetarion that round.



All I thought was how funny it'd have been if we did that in r16


Wolfpack can still do that this round for the comedy value if they want to. I for one would certainly appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
and i'm sure it wouldnt take three alliances to do that. just one with some organisation, if anybody can be bothered.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts you'd still be a butt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Everyone seems to have overlooked that Wp's average score is 400k higher than that of Ascendancy's, not to mention we also have a much higher average value.
WRONG.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 01:43   #68
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Wolfpack can still do that this round for the comedy value if they want to. I for one would certainly appreciate it.
But it'll never happen. If it did, there'd probably be people shit enough to proceed to loudly proclaim the win for CT, laughable though that is.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 05:13   #69
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Any way why is it just wp and ascendancy peeps talkin here we have no further discussion cos i doubt ascendancy wp are going to take things any further it doesnt benfit either. the real ones who need to get in gear are ct and angels who could come out of round with even more egg on face if ascendancy keep gaining 7mil score a day
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Unread 25 May 2007, 08:24   #70
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
But it'll never happen. If it did, there'd probably be people shit enough to proceed to loudly proclaim the win for CT, laughable though that is.

Im afraid that the current score system, you know, the in game ranking system says 1: Wolfpack, 2: Conspiracy 3: Angels.

There isn't much you can say to "spin" that.. I guess you could cry out for injustice or something similar, but really, when the round ends, most people will actually accept this fact. The ones who dont.. well, lets just say there is a special place in hell for them.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 08:35   #71
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
In this round, especially as WP hasn't shed much blood (and lost many members as a result) you might just be right!
WP doesnt have as many top 10 planets because we didn't let our members leech defence. We used a sound strategy (militarily and politically) to get to where we are now. If you think we haven't shed blood, you're gravely mistaken. Review sandmans and check WP planets, we have a *very large* number of top100 roid loss planets. In addition to that, the circular flow of roids within the top 3, and out of the top 3 throughout a large portion of the round is very strongly reflected in viewing the average roids of the top 15 alliances, compared with the top 3. CT/Angels teamed up on us for a long portion of the round, yet we consistantly outscored them on a daily basis--we've shed blood, and lost members--not too many though (we have a good internal structure). With our a strong emphasis on value and efficiency, anyone with decent intel can see WP & Asc's average values are significantly higher (several 100k) than any other alliances.

To claim we 'walked through' this round is bullcrap.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:10   #72
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
chances for taking down the #1 are rather slim atm, but why not teach another ally with a seriously oversized ego a lesson instead?
and i'm sure it wouldnt take three alliances to do that. just one with some organisation, if anybody can be bothered.
As long as people like you stay below my bash limit it'll certainly take more than one alliance with organisation to take Ascendancy down :crymeariver:
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:20   #73
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

It seems that some alliances teamed up and planet targeted ascendancy.
Thanks for confirming that we are the best, and reemphasizing the point that we won the round. Again.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:21   #74
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Any way why is it just wp and ascendancy peeps talkin here we have no further discussion cos i doubt ascendancy wp are going to take things any further it doesnt benfit either. the real ones who need to get in gear are ct and angels who could come out of round with even more egg on face if ascendancy keep gaining 7mil score a day
Infact CT/Angels/Vengeance did a bit of teaming up last night. I find it so amusing that when Angels couldn't take us alone they had to turn to CT for help. And then when the two of them couldn't make a dent they had to ask Vgn to help. So now all 3 of them have given it a shot. Guys, are you not ashamed that it takes 3 of you? I mean, in all seriousness now, isn't this pretty embarrassing? There wasn't even this much effort put in to taking Wolfpack down. I suppose that alone says it all.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:23   #75
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
There wasn't even this much effort put in to taking Wolfpack down. I suppose that alone says it all.
Yes there was. VGN/Angels/CT cooperated for quite a long stretch of time against WP. For a few days, TGV and a few others even joined in. CT/Angels were soliciting their WP targeting to various alliances... After one night of this group targeting Asc, you shouldn't bitch.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:26   #76
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
Yes there was. VGN/Angels/CT cooperated for quite a long stretch of time against WP. For a few days, TGV and a few others even joined in. CT/Angels were soliciting their WP targeting to various alliances... After one night of this group targeting Asc, you shouldn't bitch.
It's actually the third night in a row or so, but if they targetted you guys the same way as us then I can understand why WP wasn't taken down
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:26   #77
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
There wasn't even this much effort put in to taking Wolfpack down. I suppose that alone says it all.
Its impossible to take ascendancy down, as there is nothing to take down. Every and anything we get is a plus.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:32   #78
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Its indeed somewhat hilarious how few incs we've been getting from Ct/Angels/Vgn.
Everyone doing solo raids these days?
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:38   #79
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
Yes there was. VGN/Angels/CT cooperated for quite a long stretch of time against WP. For a few days, TGV and a few others even joined in. CT/Angels were soliciting their WP targeting to various alliances... After one night of this group targeting Asc, you shouldn't bitch.
I'm not bitching dude, I find it genuinely funny. Please read what I type. As regards fighting WP, presumably that was for #1. What are they fighting us for? I can only assume it's SECOND PLACE. It's comedy dude, nothing less. If they weren't so shit as to not be able to outgrow what is essentially a 40 man alliance they wouldn't have to worry about it, we certainly wouldn't have tried to take their "prize" away.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:39   #80
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Fleetcatches haven't won a war since I remember, they're irrelevant. Especially now with the way Zik's changed.
wrong.

Fleetcatch on Caj End of Round 20:

Attackers: Vengeance
Defenders: Destiny

Result: Vengeance did land and we outscored them by 10m that day -> VGN was out of the T2 rankrace...simple as.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:50   #81
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

T2 rankrace? What? Has everyone who plays this game turned shit? When you come second you lose, why would you give a flying **** about the degree of loss?

As well as the fact that nothing close to any kind of political activity or warring took place last round. To say it did is to make mock of all those other rounds where the alliances actually had to fight for their victory.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:55   #82
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Asc have not had many incomings from CT, Angels or WP. Towards the mid round, many of Ascendancy's now top 100 planets were still way below WPs average score. Asc started to grow insanely at around the point where WP (+ Angels + CT?) started to do planet targeting on hostile planets / gals.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:56   #83
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Im afraid that the current score system, you know, the in game ranking system says 1: Wolfpack, 2: Conspiracy 3: Angels.

There isn't much you can say to "spin" that.. I guess you could cry out for injustice or something similar, but really, when the round ends, most people will actually accept this fact. The ones who dont.. well, lets just say there is a special place in hell for them.
Did you read that JBG:s post at all? The one that Mzyxptlk quoted.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:56   #84
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
If you think we haven't shed blood, you're gravely mistaken. Review sandmans and check WP planets, we have a *very large* number of top100 roid loss planets. In addition to that, the circular flow of roids within the top 3, and out of the top 3 throughout a large portion of the round is very strongly reflected in viewing the average roids of the top 15 alliances, compared with the top 3. CT/Angels teamed up on us for a long portion of the round, yet we consistantly outscored them on a daily basis--we've shed blood, and lost members--not too many though (we have a good internal structure).
When I say you haven't been that hurt, I'm not saying you haven't managed incoming very well. Clearly, WP's internal structures/managing of members and so on has been really good this round, and perhaps that's what has made the difference - why you've still got value despite the combat etc.

The point is it's always been in your own hands, wouldn't you say? Not a single day has WP dropped above -10%, there's been no sustained roid loss at any period in the round. As soon as alliances have started to test WP, they've stopped. At least that's what I see.

I think that makes you a lot more powerful at this point in the round than an alliance that has been hurt in that way. When things aren't in your hands any more you lose members no matter how well you administrate or manage members.. and you don't normally get it back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
And if i got the right image of ascendancy (by looking at boards), you would struggle to defend against a massive fleetcatch.. There's your disadvantage...
@Anti: If an alliance lost because they landed a suicidal fleetcatch, that's not what we were talking about.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 09:58   #85
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Asc have not had many incomings from CT, Angels or WP. Towards the mid round, many of Ascendancy's now top 100 planets were still way below WPs average score. Asc started to grow insanely at around the point where WP (+ Angels + CT?) started to do planet targeting on hostile planets / gals.
Actually it has a lot more to do with the nature of the way we play but yeah I'm sure that's been a part of it.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:00   #86
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Asc have not had many incomings from CT, Angels or WP. Towards the mid round, many of Ascendancy's now top 100 planets were still way below WPs average score. Asc started to grow insanely at around the point where WP (+ Angels + CT?) started to do planet targeting on hostile planets / gals.
From Sandmans, my galaxy 2:7.
Total Round Roids: 1
Total Roids Lost: 9

Yeah man, you hit that nail on the head. We had it real easy all round. Piece of piss, never saw a hostile fleet. Care to just make up something else and tell us that now?
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:02   #87
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Looking at the ranks t100-200 I'm a little surprised just how close they are in score/value to the t100. A few extra members with 700k+ more might not make such a big difference. In this round, especially as WP hasn't shed much blood (and lost many members as a result) you might just be right!

Still, it wouldn't take many top planets in top galaxies to put you up against the wall.
Actually, WP are very well aware that the main danger in this last week is Ascendancy. But it would be something like 30 top 100 value Asc planets against 50 top 200 WP planets, and the value difference is not that great. At any given point, it takes around 2 - 3 medium WP fleets to hit one of the top 20 Asc planets, and the lead in score is just enormous, plus the members of WP are very highly motivated to take this win home. We can lose roids, sure, but our military is working very well. Props to NitinA and our BCs on a job well done in that department.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:05   #88
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
No idea, ends next Friday though.
Oh, you'd think it was today the way people are talking.

I'm sure three alliances could still challenge for first if they wanted to. 36-52 Million isn't uncoverable ground if the top alliance is dropping like a lead balloon and the bottom one has exponential growth like the others can't imagine. Fleets die pretty haphazardly on the last week anyway. Especially if you're under fire.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:13   #89
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
From Sandmans, my galaxy 2:7.
Total Round Roids: 1
Total Roids Lost: 9

Yeah man, you hit that nail on the head. We had it real easy all round. Piece of piss, never saw a hostile fleet. Care to just make up something else and tell us that now?
Also from sandmans:
http://sandmans.co.uk/graph.php?data...lue&large=true
http://sandmans.co.uk/graph.php?data...lue&large=true
http://sandmans.co.uk/graph.php?data...lue&large=true
http://sandmans.co.uk/graph.php?data...lue&large=true

As you will notice, the number of times your galaxy has been roided has decresead notably somewhere after tick 600. No, i am not contesting the fact that you have been roided, and i am not saying you have had a piss easy round, but after around tick 600 you have had it much easier, which has enabled you to grow so fast.
Edit: Make that tick 660, not 600.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:22   #90
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Actually that's largely due to the nature of value which I mentioned earlier. At the start of the round you're always going to struggle to cover one attack fleet with one def fleet. Now I can cover a couple of medium sized attack fleets with one def fleet. The shift around then is largely due to this coming into effect. For the record 2.7 has probably had like two nights without being hit all round I think, it's been fairly amusing.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:25   #91
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

that's because until feudalism (tick 300~), i'd instructed the galaxy to play as lazily as possible. success is a journey, not a destination. we started building up fleets through the mid round period and once we were set; we've managed to defend well go figure. our level of incoming has always been ridiculous due to our bizarre susceptibility to keep getting double booked. however, my galaxy is a bad example on this because we get incoming pretty much non-stop. though yes, i do somewhat see your point. but like i said, success is a journey, not a destination. ascendancy is all about these 'late' surges of growth these days.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:30   #92
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

That was because after Tick660 our better value allowed us to defend more of our roids more successfully. It was around this time that pretty solid defence fleets became available from people in #Ascendancy. As a point of fact, post PT660 I have recieved 125% of the incoming I'd had before then. Which pretty much sinks your theory.

edit. Sorry, I see both jbg and jerome have already schooled you while I was composing.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:37   #93
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Incidentally from tick 660 onwards I've also received more than half of my attack fleets. So it's probably not just a localised thing on achi's part in terms of ascendancy.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:38   #94
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with you partly. At some point, a big planet with a large stockpile is very hard to roid. It needs coordination of several decent value planets, and guess what, most of those decent value planets are either in WP, Angels or CT. Medium sized alliances have big difficulties in roiding top value galaxies.
Surely it's a cyclical effect: the bigger your planet is, the less incs you receive, and the better you can defend. The less incs you receive, the bigger your planet gets.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:41   #95
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

[10:37:32] <Achi> !surprisesex 2 7
[10:37:34] <Munin> Top attackers on coords 2:7 are Conspiracy - 126

You know nothing.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:42   #96
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

nah gio2k is making reasonable assumptions but they just are wrong with our gal specifically. he'd not be far off with 9:2 for example, but that's all part of the galaxy strategy.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:45   #97
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
That was because after Tick660 our better value allowed us to defend more of our roids more successfully. It was around this time that pretty solid defence fleets became available from people in #Ascendancy. As a point of fact, post PT660 I have recieved 125% of the incoming I'd had before then. Which pretty much sinks your theory.

edit. Sorry, I see both jbg and jerome have already schooled you while I was composing.
Right, so you are saying that the fact that your planets have grown so massive after tick 660 or so is not because WP and the other top alliances did not hit you* anymore, but because you started to defend and play more seriously. I will just say: OK. I think the truth is somewhere in between.
I also think the number of hostile fleets is not an accurate measure of how difficult you have it, but the size and composition of those fleets. Defending a TGV team up is usually easier than defendding a CT one (no pun intended).

Edit: Don't take that literally. I meant they did not hit you as much as before. At least WP, can't speak for other alliances though. And of course CT and angels incomings in the last 2 days must have gotten them higher up on the hostile rank. Thing is, we could probably discuss this for days, and without a day by day picture of the incomings your alliance got we will never know for sure how things went.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:48   #98
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

you'd think that but TGV's barrage of mixed waves have been a lot more 'effective' than CT's attempts :p
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:51   #99
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I also think the number of hostile fleets is not an accurate measure of how difficult you have it, but the size and composition of those fleets. Defending a TGV team up is usually easier than defendding a CT one (no pun intended).
Actually I remember that covering the 70k cr wave from CT around pt 600 was far easier than covering some of the Orbit incs we had.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:52   #100
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigone
wrong.

Fleetcatch on Caj End of Round 20:

Attackers: Vengeance
Defenders: Destiny

Result: Vengeance did land and we outscored them by 10m that day -> VGN was out of the T2 rankrace...simple as.
Gosu's only reason for landing the fleetcatch was to prevent Caj from winning the round and give a chance to Agony instead.

Besides, T2 rankrace -> LOL.
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