Interpreting the EULA.

[Sun_Tzu]

During the recent debacle over the actions of some Denial HC’s I came across some information about Denials internal tools, which along with a quote from the EULA provided by Kargool prompted me to write this thread. I bring this up for public discussion because it lacks direct precedent and thus I feel the community has to make up its mind as to what the stance on it should be. I would ask of each of you to refrain from abusive comments so that we might hold a civil debate on this subject. Thank you.

Originally Posted by EULA

8. You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the websites…to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators and bots. … You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.
…
18.3. Bots
Bots are not permitted to be used to access the game. Bot use is defined as, but not limited to:
(a) Using browser plug-ins that would make it easier for you to play the game
(b) Accessing the pages with another program (for example to check if you are under attack) ¿ see section 8.

The sections quoted above deal with various forms of external measures which interact with the game and may be used to provide a unfair advantage within the game. As basis for determining which actions are in breach of the aforementioned sections of the rules we can extrapolate some basic principles which may help us evaluate cases:
a) The game may be accessed only through standard browsers or similar devices.
b) Any automation of any actions is prohibited.
c) The game content may not be used to create any devices through which the game can be played.
How is this then to be interpreted? Various interpretations are possible, but in the interest of brevity I will only deal with the extremes.

The lenient interpretation of the rules states that you shall use a standard browser to access the game, each action must be performed by the player himself, and you may not create external measure which either access the game for you or perform actions without your involvement. As such, this forbids the use of bots and various scripts which may serve to automate various actions as well as custom programs for viewing the content provided. This may be seen as the conventional interpretation.

The stringent interpretation prohibits the use of any form of external measures which may be used to access the content, automate the use of it in any way or otherwise to play the game. Again, this prohibits the use of bots and various scripts as well as tools which may be indirectly used to automate the gameplay.

Now whilst these may seem quite similar, the results are quite different. Taken to its extremes, it might be argued that the stringent interpretation would disallow the use of a battlecalc or a service such as sandmans, because they provide a external way of viewing the content as well as automate various functions of the game. Luckily this is not the case, as Planetarion provides the information these services make use of freely and with the implied consent of their use for said services. Furthermore in law tradition may be regarded as a precedent. As these services are not only enabled by the actions of Planetarion but are also well known and have not been found to be in breach of the rules in the past, it may be concluded that they are allowed.

As I said earlier, I have come across some information with regards to Denial and their use of tools which may be considered in breach of the EULA. The tool in question is a IRC-bot which allows the creation of direct links to perform various actions within the game. I would like to stress that I am not proposing that aforementioned actions are illegal, however it seems to me that the use of said automation is in breach of at least the stringent interpretation of the rules, as well as our basic principles as set forth earlier. As basis for this interpretation I provide:
a) The bot automates the performance of an action be reducing multiple tasks to a single clicking of a link, thus it is in breach of principle b under a stringent interpretation which includes indirect automation.
b) Said automation may be viewed as either a means by which to access the game which is beyond that of a standard browser, or indeed as a means of playing the game itself, in which case it is in breach of principles a and/or c.
c) The means by which the bot has been created utilizes game content which is not distributed with intent but as a side-effect of how the game is coded. This implies that the utilization of said content which enabled the creation of said bot is in violation of principle c, and that the bot itself is in breach of the EULA(note that this does not in and of itself render the use of said bot in breach of the rules).
d) The use of such a bot constitutes a unfair advantage within the game as it enables/simplifies various tasks which require either synchronization of events or execution of orders. The mere existence of such a bot implies that it is seen as a tool which provides a advantage in the game in terms of simplifying tasks, lowering the amount of effort required, preventing mishaps(misslaunches and such) and enabling a faster completion of tasks than is ordinarily possible.

I would like to finish off by stating that just as in law, each person is responsible for their actions. One can not argue ignorance of the rules, as they are made publicly available and each person is required to affirm them as a part of signing up for the game. Neither is the lack of precedence or an ignorance of the possible interpretations of the rules an argument, as rules are not simply written for present cases but for adaptation in judgment of all future cases as well. This is all.

[Ceadrath]

The tool in question is a IRC-bot which allows the creation of direct links to perform various actions within the game.

so in layman's terms what does this involve?

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally Posted by Ceadrath

so in layman's terms what does this involve?

Click the link and it launches your fleet o place x:y:z at PTwhatever. Click the link and it scans (a) planet(s) with any given scans specified. Basicly PA allows you to perform actions by typing in the correct url for that action, and this bot converts orders into ready made url for specified actions.

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

Click the link and it launches your fleet o place x:y:z at PTwhatever. Click the link and it scans (a) planet(s) with any given scans specified. Basicly PA allows you to perform actions by typing in the correct url for that action, and this bot converts orders into ready made url for specified actions.

well, ive never personally seen the fleet launching on a set tick/coords one, but the clicking a link to get a certain scan is pretty prolific in most allies tools that ive seen, and has been for a long time.

I cant see how it would go against the eula if all it does is link you to an ingame page that you yourself have to be logged in and click to use.

[Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

Click the link and it launches your fleet o place x:y:z at PTwhatever.

i would very much like to see that link.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

i would very much like to see that link.

Out of genuine curiosity, would it be terribly hard to create an otherwise blank HTML page that sends a POST to the PA server (assuming I've been online in the last 2 hours)?

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

i would very much like to see that link.

I've been informed that said bot is used to generate links to launch fleets, the assumption that prelaunches can also be set this way is entirely my own as I haven't actually been given access to this bot and am relying on second hand information(although I believe, reliable).

[VenoX]

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

I've been informed that said bot is used to generate links to launch fleets, the assumption that prelaunches can also be set this way is entirely my own as I haven't actually been given access to this bot and am relying on second hand information(although I believe, reliable).

proof? (assuming ur accusing Denial here) or shud i just call u an idiot now and get it over with?

edit:
I guess i shud elaborate.

I understand this post (primarily the launching fleets accusation) to be based on the lies of a bitter ex HC (Kenny) that was removed from our alliance. Some people Sun_Tzu should just know better.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Ceadrath

so in layman's terms what does this involve?

In short, this is what happens:
1) Someone does !request planet 1:1:1
2) The bot makes a link out of this information, and pastes it to a scan channel
3) A scanner clicks the link and this opens a tab in his browser of choice containing the normal in-game scan page (basically, by clicking the link, the scanner tells PA "hello, I want a scan on these coords, please give me an URL to it")
4) Scanner then copy/pastes the scan URL back to the bot
5) Bot gives the original "someone" the scan URL.



Worth noting at this point is the following script (which I just wrote in about 2 minutes):

on *:TEXT:!open http://game.planetarion.com/*:#denial-scan:{ 
  if ($nick == scanbot) { 
    url $2 
  }
}

Assuming the scanner has been online in the last 2 ticks (bypassing bot checker and auto logout), this (fairly simple) script (in combination with a bot like Denial's) will automatically perform scans. While it doesnt paste the scan URL back to the person requesting it, it's trivial for this person to consult the alliance scan database, and retrieve the scan.

Effectively what Denial has started doing is create a "master bot", which can create URLs for extremely simple IRC scripts to open, reducing the task of actual human beings to logging in every 2 hours to do the bot checker, after which a single person can control as many accounts as he wants.

While I'm confident they haven't taken the second step (which is telling all their members to put this script in their IRC client), which would give them a bonafide botnet, this is a worrying loophole that can very easily be abused, if an alliance so wishes.

[Zaejii]

so in a sense: if you're logged in and are a scanner, someone is basically playing your planet for you?

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

so in a sense: if you're logged in and are a scanner, someone is basically playing your planet for you?

I'm confident it's doable (assuming the scanner has the script running in their IRC client).

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

so in a sense: if you're logged in and are a scanner, someone is basically playing your planet for you?

unless this is a different form of hax that isnt the same to what ive seen many times before, then no. You still have to click the link to actually do the scan yourself, all it really does is save you time in going to the waves page and entering coords etc.

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally Posted by Ceadrath

unless this is a different form of hax that isnt the same to what ive seen many times before, then no. You still have to click the link to actually do the scan yourself, all it really does is save you time in going to the waves page and entering coords etc.

It saves you time by AUTOMATING your actions, even when you click the link the steps taken up to that point have been automated to save time, and this is in direct conflict with the EULA.

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

It saves you time by AUTOMATING your actions, even when you click the link the steps taken up to that point have been automated to save time, and this is in direct conflict with the EULA.

You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.

This is the bit in the eula that mentions automation. Now, the first part is concerned with accessing the game itself and then goes on to read that automated programs/bots/scripts also cannot be used to access the game. In this case, the bot does not access the game on your behalf, and so their is no automated access of the game, as opposed to automated actions It still requires you to physically access the game yourself.

The script that mz mentions however would be in breach of this.

[Game^]

I can't believe people care this much about scanning to actually write this much about it!

ON NOES SCANS MIGHT BE READILY AVAILABLE?!?!

[crazypyro]

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

Now whilst these may seem quite similar, the results are quite different. Taken to its extremes, it might be argued that the stringent interpretation would disallow the use of a battlecalc or a service such as sandmans, because they provide a external way of viewing the content as well as automate various functions of the game. Luckily this is not the case, as Planetarion provides the information these services make use of freely and with the implied consent of their use for said services. Furthermore in law tradition may be regarded as a precedent. As these services are not only enabled by the actions of Planetarion but are also well known and have not been found to be in breach of the rules in the past, it may be concluded that they are allowed.

Sandmans, bcalcs and the other simulation tools, are just that simulation tools. Sandmans is just a medium of information that is readily available within the game itself, the sites design and purpose is to provide an organized and centralized means to which this data is displayed and made easier to access. And since sandmans does not modify nor provide any kind of automation that affects the game engine itself, its well within the EULA. As for the bcalcs, population calcs, cov op calcs, and any other calc, they are simply designed off public information made public found in the PA manual, and they are meant to simulate what might occur given certains actions. These calcs are not based off the game code and can be subject to error because there design is an assumed design not the official. While the results they display are fairly accurate, its still a simulation, and no actually game altering automation takes place and no game code gets modified and this puts the calcs well within the EULA as well.

As for the browser plug-in used by Denial is clearly a breech of EULA contract has its stated in its definition.

just my 3cents

[Zaejii]

mz just posted a way it can be automated, and you could write a program that would get the url back for the scan and post it into the channel.. is the same as that EULA part where a bot plays your account imo.

[Ceadrath]

surely using that script would fall under the 'Accessing the pages with another program' part of the eula which would get you closed, though it'd be pretty hard to prove. The bot isnt the issue in that scenario, its the script that logs in.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Ceadrath

surely using that script would fall under the 'Accessing the pages with another program' part of the eula which would get you closed, though it'd be pretty hard to prove. The bot isnt the issue in that scenario, its the script that logs in.

Since the page would open in the browser, you could argue otherwise. Even so, it's completely untraceable.

[crazypyro]

Automating game actions that would require user input normally = cheating

Accessing readily available information through the use of a form of automation = not cheating

The information had to be created by user involvement. While using an outside source to do the actions required no user involvement.

[Mzyxptlk]

I may have caused some confusion in my first post.

In no way am I suggesting Denial uses the script I just pasted. There is no evidence supporting that allegation, and I'm not so great a fool to accuse people without even the slightest hint of evidence.

All I'm doing is putting forward the motion that it's not desirable to be in a situation in which it's literally 2 minutes of work to create a (crude!) bot that automatically does scans.

[Zaejii]

so scanning like this is okay, which makes people launching your fleets for you like is is also okay? give me a break. this has 'abuse' and 'bot' written all over it.

[Game^]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

so scanning like this is okay, which makes people launching your fleets for you like is is also okay? give me a break. this has 'abuse' and 'bot' written all over it.

Are you asking my opinion, or are you wanting PA Team's restrictive view point on it? Heavenforbid that people should have to be at their PC for less time.

[Zaejii]

Originally Posted by EULA

You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.

i don't even see how you're saying its not a violation of the EULA. just because you (general you) might feel that scanning is boring doesn't mean that it should be automated, and if the means by which its automated can also be used to launch fleets or perform other actions on your planet - its against the rules.

[Phil^]

All it does is assemble a url with the parameters for scanning pre-populated instead of letting the scanner punch those details in manually.
its not possible for it to use anyone elses accounts in its current form - anyone who clicks that link will perform the scan in their own account assuming they are logged in at the time.

As such, i dont think its breaching the EULA clauses on bot usage since at no point does the software interact with your game account.

If pateam wanted to stop this sort of thing, its a simple matter of requiring all form submission to be done via POST requests. That will kill the possibility of using a 'time saver' like this, dead. ( legitimately anyway. It would force it to be logged in to an account itself this way - and thats strictly forbidden )

[Zaejii]

Phil^, did you bother reading mz's post where it gives an example of how it can be automated?

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

Phil^, did you bother reading mz's post where it gives an example of how it can be automated?

Did you bother to figure out how the technique works?
Its not something that directly interfaces with the game. The moment it does - its forbidden.
Its also something that trivial to prevent in the game by changing all variables read in form submissions from GET to POST , and altering all forms to use the POST method.
a 5-10 minute job, really.

[Mzyxptlk]

Quadruple posting? Seriously man, think of the puppies!

[Phil^]

hey, i had dinner to go eat and couldnt be bothered combining them

[lokken]

I would say that clicking a link to do something yourself in planetarion should not be against the rules, as ultimately, the player in question has to take an autonomous decision to take that individual action and click the link to actually do that.

I don't view what you described as an unfair advantage, it's just interfacing with the game more efficiently.

Sorry to add this so late (I went to watch the football)

Originally Posted by EULA
8. You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the websites…to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators and bots. … You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.
…
18.3. Bots
Bots are not permitted to be used to access the game. Bot use is defined as, but not limited to:
(a) Using browser plug-ins that would make it easier for you to play the game
(b) Accessing the pages with another program (for example to check if you are under attack) ¿ see section 8.

Ultimately, the person clicking the link has to be logged in under that particular account. The link goes through a standard browser so I would state the following:

- "to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators and bots." - the only method that this bot would be illegal is through login sharing, which means the people in question would have to be already cheating - so for this part of the rule it merely facilitates cheats, in the same manner it facilitates legitimate players.

- " You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so." - the access here is clearly not automated, or at least no more automated than saving your own password in your browser. I often surf between planetarion screens using my address bar on an unscripted version of firefox rather than clicking - this isn't much different from generating links in a bot to let you access screens or execute actions.

- as we can see from rule 18.3 - if a browser contained free text fields or on screen buttons to make it able (for example) to launch while you were still looking from your overview screen - this would clearly be illegal. But using generated links is no different to using the address bar in a standard browser.

As far as I can see, just because an alliance cheats in one respect doesn't mean they can't be legitimately innovative in another (although I would probably suggest they've done this inadvertently).

[Gary]

Your word is not what it used to be Reese. Why should we believe you on this given your recent behaviour?

[qebab]

The hypothetical script we are talking about should clearly be disallowed for the single reason that extending an IRC client to automatically open all links that start with http://game.planetarion is trivial. In python, you'd say

import webbrowser
if link.startswith("http://game.planetarion"): webbrowser.open(link)

Assuming that there is a variable called link. This is here only for illustration.

It is trivial to make clients like x-chat, irssi and mIRC automatically open links, which actually gives you a botnet. Admittedly only for two hours at a time, but I don't think it should be very hard to come up with a way to get around this.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by qebab

The hypothetical script we are talking about should clearly be disallowed for the single reason that extending an IRC client to automatically open all links that start with http://game.planetarion is trivial. In python, you'd say

import webbrowser
if link.startswith("http://game.planetarion"): webbrowser.open(link)

Assuming that there is a variable called link. This is here only for illustration.

It is trivial to make clients like x-chat, irssi and mIRC automatically open links, which actually gives you a botnet. Admittedly only for two hours at a time, but I don't think it should be very hard to come up with a way to get around this.

It's also trivial to simple write a script that sends a full HTTP request (as such, dear Phil^, your statement of 'simply switch GET vars to POST vars' does not really cut it there), then fetches the results and passes them back on to your IRC client. The API for such things is available on almost every system.

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by Heartless

It's also trivial to simple write a script that sends a full HTTP request (as such, dear Phil^, your statement of 'simply switch GET vars to POST vars' does not really cut it there), then fetches the results and passes them back on to your IRC client. The API for such things is available on almost every system.

Yes, i know that - and the moment it does its forbidden ( as i noted above ) as its directly interacting with the game.
In order to *perform* the full http request it needs to authenticate as a scanner.

[Spectator1]

Player needs to be logged in. The login question makes automatic login virtually impossible but through a less-then-2-hour-old cookie (which can just as easily be supplied as POST headers in mIRC's socket functionality) one could bypass the login.

With a proper script a scanner planet would only have to login after every other tick and the alliance would be able to utilize its scanning potential without further action required by the scanner.

How bad this would be to gameplay isn't even relevant. It is automation obviously beyond the scope of this game and definitely a violation of the EULA in its current wording.



About the bot supplied scan link itself. As long as a scanner still has to click it himself and has to supply (the link to) the resulting scan back into the bot (if applicable) himself the matter of actual automation is the typing of an url in the address bar of a browser. In the current wording of the EULA this is indeed still grey-area stuff but it has been deemed acceptable by the PA team and community in general for so long I can't even remember when it was started.



Earlier it was stated that gathering information was allowed. I disagree. Websites like sandmans use the official dumps and accumulate certain statistics by keep track of ALL the dumps it has collected over the ticks. It never accesses a page requiring login.

Anything that is not a default browser that collects info from the private (login or cookie required) PA pages is obviously in violation of the EULA. This includes Greasemonkey scripts, mIRC scripts using sockets, php using cURL/sockets and Javascript using XSS.

This post reflects purely my interpretation.

[VenoX]

Secondly, Denial has no fleet launching bot, nor a bot that does any other type of game interfacing. The scan from url thing, that many allies use, is legal according to Cin. So no further interpretation needed there. Our scanners work very hard, and we are grateful.

There, I've posted it. Does it make it anymore true?

[zebra]

No.

[Veedeejem!]

This is really starting to remind me off a witchhunt...
Lets find something remotly possible and claim Denial does it!!!!
I was in Denial last round and know some of their scanners (Hi PL'eken ) and never did I see or hear about anything even remotly close to what is described in this thread. Quite the opposite, I know their scanners work hard to provide the alliance with all scans needed
But by all means, continue making up things about Denial so you might rally the universe to hit them again!

Some future stuff you can use:
- Denial ate my baby!
- VenoX poisoned my towns well and now everybody is sick!
- Last night when I looked through my window I saw Reese flying on a broomstick!
- Eksero used his dark magic to turn my girlfriend into a cow!
- Denial drugged me with sleeping pills so I didn't get up and crashed my fleet!
- My brothers wife's sister's uncle's girlfriend's best friend said that she has seen the AI that controls all Denial players! It was strategicly located next to the watercooler in her office building and looked like a plant!

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

This is really starting to remind me off a witchhunt...
Lets find something remotly possible and claim Denial does it!!!!
I was in Denial last round and know some of their scanners (Hi PL'eken ) and never did I see or hear about anything even remotly close to what is described in this thread. Quite the opposite, I know their scanners work hard to provide the alliance with all scans needed
But by all means, continue making up things about Denial so you might rally the universe to hit them again!

Some future stuff you can use:
- Denial ate my baby!
- VenoX poisoned my towns well and now everybody is sick!
- Last night when I looked through my window I saw Reese flying on a broomstick!
- Eksero used his dark magic to turn my girlfriend into a cow!
- Denial drugged me with sleeping pills so I didn't get up and crashed my fleet!
- My brothers wife's sister's uncle's girlfriend's best friend said that she has seen the AI that controls all Denial players! It was strategicly located next to the watercooler in her office building and looked like a plant!

While I have to agree that this now has taken a turn into something that slightly resembles a witch hunt, I'm quite confident that if the Denial hc's had made this issue into a full disclosure and kicked the people involved in the cheating right away, this would never have happened. (Well, the 5 ally gangbang on them would have, but they're winning anyways) Although the fact that it seems like that the Denial hc's have the political nose of a cro-magnon man, and the social skills of a hobo it seems to me like phil's analogy about a slowly occurring car crash is best fitting.

[Veedeejem!]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Although the fact that it seems like that the Denial hc's have the political nose of a cro-magnon man, and the social skills of a hobo it seems to me like phil's analogy about a slowly occurring car crash is best fitting.

That may be true, but that does not justify throwing made up cheating accusations at them just caus you (and I don't mean you personally kargool, I mean it in a general term) believe that what you said is possible so they have to be using it...

[_Kila_]

This seems pretty similar to bookmarking pages :/

[VenoX]

Originally Posted by VenoX

They were reset, re-opened, and then asked to be deleted. Atleast get it right.

Originally Posted by Assassin

I wont dwell on this as this isnt what this thread is about. But, Reese i am sorry but you did appeal. MHs wait for you to appeal/give your cause before they pass judgement so therefore you must of appealed its common procedure. But what i cant seem to understand is why you would first ask to be re-set (apparently the MH gave you the option no idea why) And then ask to be deleted when you can be deleted straight away and start from scratch? I never did understand that statement from Venox in another thread but thought it would be approriate here.

Originally Posted by Reese

2nd as far as the reset/deletion/whatever it didn't happen how you are explaining it here. Those are not the correct facts. But this thread is not about this (supposedly) so I won't discuss it.

There, its all on one neatly flowing text for u to read and understand Assassin, I even bolded the part where ur facts are different to mine. Therefore, Reese isnt lying when she says this and nor is there a problem with our communication.

Originally Posted by Assassin

Unless i am mistaken here.....But anyway as you said we have 2 threads on this issue above already so ill stop protesting it. Im just getting anoyed with seeing in every thread a new story/lie from you guys. Its becoming sickening.

Apparantly you were mistaken. Shame you let ur prejudice against Reese affect ur ability to read/understand/reply on a forum, thats whats sickening tbh.

[Assassin]

Then this still doesnt make sense to me as this is how the MH proccess usally works:

1) They close you of course or warn you for abusing/cheating
2) You then of course are supposed to come to the mh channels and discuss with them your case (usally with the MH who has of course warnd/closed you)
3) Once you have given your story, and of course heard why they warned/closed you an agreement is then met (this is sort of the appeal proccess if you will)
4) If your not happy with the judgement of the MH in charge of the case you can appeal to the MH manager but we wont go into that as its the same proccess as said 3
5) You walk away and everyone is happy or not.

So where i am confused here is, how we managed to go from a closure, to a reset, to been re-oppend and then the HC of Denial asking to be deleted. Wouldnt it make more sense to just of course ask to be removed/deleted in the first place Venox? This is where i never got your statement/quote in the first place as it makes no sense to me. Especially as we spent around 5 pages on the other thread discussing how badly the MHs managed the case (ie i would of kept you closed and made you wait 10 days for auto deletion) which in those 5 pages we discovered the MHs gave you a choice and you (the players closed) asked to be reset/reoppend for the sake of the alliance. Im pretty sure even the MHs have let that slip and is common knowledge by now in the PA community.

So the MHs WOULD of discussed a reset and oppening your planet with you. Thats how it works im afraid. Unless sumone has changed the proccess here and the MHs bassicaly just read your minds and give out said punishments.

Btw while i seem to have both urself and Reeses attention before i actually stop posting regarding this issue can i get a statement on here as to why if you saw this as a legit tactic did you not inform your members of it and allow them to use it? Ive asked this question a good 4 times now in different posts and i keep been ignored. And once even on irc i was ignored. So may as well try for a 5th time now and see what happends.

But i wont post here again regarding this. Just thought id clear up how myself used to run the MHs department with closures/cases.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Assassin

why if you saw this as a legit tactic did you not inform your members of it and allow them to use it?

Can a Denial HC please answer this question?

[Riddim]

Originally Posted by Assassin

why if you saw this as a legit tactic did you not inform your members of it and allow them to use it?

Originally Posted by GJN

Can a Denial HC please answer this question?

I don't think we can expect an answer to this question, which makes you wonder..

[VenoX]

They were reset in the hope that with a planet still in game it wud encourage them to continue running the alliance. Without them, the alliance would have disbanded, atleast i wouldn't have continued running it without them. They then realised there was no point playing that planet still when everyone had their co-ords/hates them, so just asked for their planets to be deleted altogether. You may be right that the reset possibility was discussed. But you said they ASKED to be reset, i dont believe they had much of a choice. The whole "appeal" by Reese/eksero lasted less than an hour or so once the MH decission had been made final. They then accepted this and moved on.

This is where Phil has got so angry. Fiery told koks he should appeal to Phil and if he can convince him he'll be re-opened. This was TERRIBLE handling by our head MH since this guy (who isnt a MH or member of PAteam) then goes and rants at the whole Denial HC team on the forums, accusing them of all sorts and calling for Denial members to leave the alliance etc. Another wise move by PAteam.

[Alki]

Ignored again Ass

[Phil^]

amusingly thats the first ive heard about koks being referred to me, so no - thats not where ive got so angry.
It was the fact that people had even *tried* to appeal after being found guilty and confessing that pissed me off.
The very fact that you thought you could possibly get away with it, and the sheer audacity to even try. Its just beyond belief.

He never bothered to get in touch, by the way. Must have known that a snowball had a better chance in hell than convincing me what he ( and the others affected ) did was 'right'

[VenoX]

Originally Posted by Phil^

amusingly thats the first ive heard about koks being referred to me, so no - thats not where ive got so angry.

So why then did u get so angry suddenly about an appeal when koks was the only one that'd talked to the MH in days and then been referred to u by Fiery? Either way she must have been discussing this with u (which she shudnt have been doing since u hold no position in PAteam) and u chose to spam it all over the forums. Again, wise move.

And you really should learn to be careful with your "You"s and "Denial HC's". One person doesn't mean they're all guilty of whatever your problem is.

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by VenoX

So why then did u get so angry suddenly about an appeal when koks was the only one that'd talked to the MH in days and then been referred to u by Fiery? Either way she must have been discussing this with u (which she shudnt have been doing since u hold no position in PAteam) and u chose to spam it all over the forums. Again, wise move.

If the very very simple explaination for why its pissed me off so much escapes you, despite being made very easy for you and over multiple posts; then why on earth do i need to go and repeat myself once more to a halfwit incapable of reading and who is desperately trying to shift the blame/attention for all that ails you on the forums to the multihunters?