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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 09:59   #1
Chaotic Mind
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cath buff idea

i posted this in another forum a couple of days ago, and decided to post it here to see what the wider community thinks ^^

Quote:
well, i had the idea to buff caths, i maybe should post this in official forums, but thought i'd ask here first to see what you guys think.

Well, i thought its one of the things they should implement to make caths competent again...
alright, as most know, the battle as of now, work as follows: (example)

attacker
40k vshracks (95.2%)
2k daggers (4.76%)
total: 42k ships (100%)

defender:
15000 beetles

ok, as we know, this means that the vshraks will take 95% of the damage and the daggers would take 4.76%, now if

14*15000= 210k total firepower
split up: 200k on vshracks (50k of which get EMPed -- meaning 40k) and 10000 on the daggers (1000 of which get EMPed)

as we see in this example, we had some excess damage done to the vshracks, but the attacker STILL took 1k*11/50 ---> 220 roids

had the excess damage not went to waste, but rather got redistributed to the rest of the ships, ie daggers, he would have gotten 0 roids.

this pretty much is my suggestion, make cath redistribute wasted damage. this will buff them in terms of defensive capabilities a bit, imho.
becasue, if he wants to defend this, in the current system, he will actually need x*14*2/42=2000*10 ----> x = 30k beetles
thats double what he would need if the system i proposed would work.

this would, ofc mean a small tweak in the way battles are done, the ones involving cath at least, anyway.

hope i was clear ^_^ , i had to go in the middle of it all and resumed it an hour later, so lost train of thought, and didn't bother re-read due to laziness reasons

anyway, i'd like to hear your comments and thoughts, and if something is unclear, i can elaborate/explain.

also, i would finally like to add that i am relativly new, so this system might or might not have been implemented in earlier rounds, i woulnd't know.

*eagerly awaits comments*
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 10:03   #2
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Re: cath buff idea

its certainly a good idea as cath did suck this round
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 10:11   #3
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Re: cath buff idea

It does seem interesting. But beetles are very good atm.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 11:00   #4
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Re: cath buff idea

beetles arent good at stopping pods though - that is the point .

moved to suggestions so the more active board can tear it apart and suck the jucies dry...

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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 11:16   #5
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Re: cath buff idea

it's ridiculous either way that pods get hit latest i agree. but that's not only for emp ships, it's for kill ships aswell.

if you now kill 90% of a fleet he still caps 100% most likely, which is rather pathetic...
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 11:43   #6
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Re: cath buff idea

If you want to change things like this, there's 2 possibilities
1) change the ratio of pod armour to "flak" ships
2) change the way to target multiple ships of the same class by distributing damage over armour% of ships not % of ships.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 11:45   #7
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
it's ridiculous either way that pods get hit latest i agree. but that's not only for emp ships, it's for kill ships aswell.

if you now kill 90% of a fleet he still caps 100% most likely, which is rather pathetic...
But anyone who gets big enough so that they cannot be stopped by gal/alliance defence is going ot be active and skilled enough to realise that the losses are too large for teh roids and recall. Conversely, if someone is XP whoring and sacrificing a fleet for roids, then they will either send a smaller value of ships which is easier to stop, or a larger value which opens up the possibility of killing enough to force a recall. :/

I like how pods are tougher as it encourages attacking.

However, caths don't have the advantage of killing off attackers, so they need some other kind of advantage... I liked the idea of 10% of damage from EMP causing actual damage, but maybe this could work too. It would need testing though.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 11:59   #8
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
it's ridiculous either way that pods get hit latest i agree. but that's not only for emp ships, it's for kill ships aswell.

if you now kill 90% of a fleet he still caps 100% most likely, which is rather pathetic...
It's like that on purpose. If you lose 90% of your fleet you still cap.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 12:04   #9
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Re: cath buff idea

This entire problem can be solved by boosting Cathaar efficiency advantage back to how it was before everyone's armour got upgraded. Boost all of them up to around 70, and the situation will be solved without having to downgrade pods or introduce 'killing EMP'.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 12:17   #10
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
This entire problem can be solved by boosting Cathaar efficiency advantage back to how it was before everyone's armour got upgraded. Boost all of them up to around 70, and the situation will be solved without having to downgrade pods or introduce 'killing EMP'.
"Killing EMP" is not a great idea and still wouldn't solve this problem of it being hard to stop pods (if you actually look at stats btw, the Pegasus and Privateer don't cause these problems, and the Vsh / Dagger relationship is the most extreme out of all the relationships).
However, I can't see that increasing EMP damage by ~ 40% would be a good idea. The Black Widow, to counter the large defence of the Leviathan, perhaps. Dropping the armour of especically the xan pods by 5-10% would bring things back into balance and make attacks easier to stop. Increasing all Cathaar EMP ships by such an amount would be an overreaction, probably unbalancing the stats the other way.
But if we do make attacks *too* much easier to stop, it'll stagnate the game further and more people will loose interest
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 12:30   #11
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Re: cath buff idea

Also, if you look at the stats, the pods are generally more expensive (anyone checked the cost of a Leviathan recently?). If you look at the cost ratio of the flak ships and the pods, things are slightly different.
E.G. in the example above, 40k vsh are 39000000 resources, and 2k daggers are 4050000 resources. Total resources are 43050000, so Vsh is only 90% of the resources.
i.e. resource wise, Beetles do stop more.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: I started off with the idea of trying to show the problem wasn't quite as bad as it looked, and forgot how I was doing it half way through. Hopefully you get the idea...
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 12:38   #12
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Re: cath buff idea

I think i must be just a Zik phobia or something, but i havent found there to be a problem regarding Xan FI fleets. I must say that in R13 i used them often - however this also gives me perspective. Normally, i would only launch if roids were costing less than 20k resources each (usually less). I wouldnt land if it cost more than around 30k res per roid (~120 ticks to repay) though i must admit i was on the more cautious side i believe.

The thing that is different about Xan FI fleets is that, due to the high proportion of Vsh, killing pods isnt as important. It is really easy to get Xan FI fleets to recall - usually 1 or 2k TBT (even the same number of tarants tbh) will force xans to recall because its just too expensive to land. This differs to the Terran DE/BA situation where there is a much higher proportion of pods - the idea with these fleets isnt to crash or crash though, but to absorb the damage and still cap. Considering that both pod and normal escorting ship are quite heavily armoured (as terrans are), it is this situation that best represents the problem.

I reckon, anyway.

btw appoco, the third way of distributing damage is through a proportion of total value - ie, if 15% of the fleet are pods in resources, 15% of shots will land on pods (i tend to think that this is the best method as from there you can give advantages to races with tough pods etc - as opposed to having them all tough).
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 12:41   #13
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
This entire problem can be solved by boosting Cathaar efficiency advantage back to how it was before everyone's armour got upgraded. Boost all of them up to around 70, and the situation will be solved without having to downgrade pods or introduce 'killing EMP'.
No.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 13:13   #14
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Re: cath buff idea

The next idea would be to increase the damage of what you all see as the 'problem' pod, the Leviathon. Theoretically then fewer would be built...but this wouldn't happen in the real game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
The thing that is different about Xan FI fleets is that, due to the high proportion of Vsh, killing pods isnt as important. It is really easy to get Xan FI fleets to recall - usually 1 or 2k TBT (even the same number of tarants tbh) will force xans to recall because its just too expensive to land. This differs to the Terran DE/BA situation where there is a much higher proportion of pods - the idea with these fleets isnt to crash or crash though, but to absorb the damage and still cap. Considering that both pod and normal escorting ship are quite heavily armoured (as terrans are), it is this situation that best represents the problem.
The problem is that TBTs and Tarants can only come from in-galaxy. Do I need to explain the problem with this further?
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 13:20   #15
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Re: cath buff idea

who really wants to make the roids harder to cap ?
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 13:58   #16
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Re: cath buff idea

I'm not too sure what Chaotic Mind is going on about. What he seems to be saying is to give EMP priority to shooting at pods instead of normal ships. Bad idea.

A better idea would be what Appocomaster said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
If you want to change things like this, there's 2 possibilities
1) change the ratio of pod armour to "flak" ships
2) change the way to target multiple ships of the same class by distributing damage over armour% of ships not % of ships.
Especially #2, I always thought it was a bit dumb that this wasn't being done already.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 14:24   #17
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Re: cath buff idea

"chubby in missing the point" problem

he was saying that shots with the current combat engine get wasted.

this has been true throughout pax, it's just been VERY obvious in this last round with the pods having the highest armour.

I personally think that the way dmg is assigned is pants.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 17:02   #18
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
2) change the way to target multiple ships of the same class by distributing damage over armour% of ships not % of ships.
well, that would mean make roiding in general harder which isn't the objective, since it would stagnate the round quicker etc

what i'm saying is: if we were to keep the current combat system, at least give the cath some sort of advantage over the other races because we all know that they get targetted first since not only is it zero losses but its also hard for them to stop the pods, this isn't a problem with the other races since they can make you recall by killing your ships.
So, my suggestion is to redistribute the damage in a different way when it comes to cath. this might mean that they will still get targetted first, but at least they have hopes of stopping the attack if they have enough ships, and its not free roids anymore.

the damage redistribution could be done like Appocomaster suggested: "change the way to target multiple ships of the same class by distributing damage over armour% of ships not % of ships". (but only for caths - otherwise its not really a buff, its just a change of the system).
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 22:13   #19
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
he was saying that shots with the current combat engine get wasted.
Wasted how?
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 22:28   #20
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Re: cath buff idea

as in, it's divided by number of ships. so 90% of the beetles shoot at vsh, emping 50k (when there's only 40k vsh). 10% shoot at the daggers and EMP half. now, 10k of those emp blasts were "wasted" as the vsh only needed 40k to be EMPed, so he wants combat recoded to take account of this and use these "wasted" shots elsewhere.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 22:37   #21
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Re: cath buff idea

Oh right, for some reason I thought that in the initial example there were 100k vishes.

Yes, this should be done too.
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Unread 12 Jun 2005, 22:41   #22
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Re: cath buff idea

I don't agree, for reasons given above. It's probably the most complicated way, and completely negates the idea of using ships for flak.
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Unread 13 Jun 2005, 13:20   #23
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I don't agree, for reasons given above. It's probably the most complicated way, and completely negates the idea of using ships for flak.
no, it *doesn't* negate flakking it makes perfect sense :/

if I have a ship with an armour of 5 and another with an armour of 3 and they both cost the same, which one do i build if I want my total armour pool to be high?

obviously the one with 5 armour. but lets say that the one with 3 armour is the pod. Is it worth me building the 5 armour ship, even if shots are fired on a total armour pool rather than divided by ship numbers first? YES IT BLOOMIN WELL IS! Can cath defend attacks better? YES THEY BLOOMIN WELL CAN! Will attacks on everyone else except on cat still recal for the same reasons, that being they don't like losing their ships because of defence? YES IT BLOOMIN WELL WILL!

what would change?, possibly the increase in XP whoring, it would be harder (slightly) to gain roids by suiciding as the pods are more likely to die too. This would mean a change in tactics, or rather the denial of one. But it's the only reason i can think of why you'd want to keep the fisher price format of the current engine.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 08:48   #24
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The next idea would be to increase the damage of what you all see as the 'problem' pod, the Leviathon. Theoretically then fewer would be built...but this wouldn't happen in the real game.
Then they would be even harder to kill, as even fewer shots land on them and thus still getting full cap with even a higher proportion of fleet loss .

The 'solution' is to make them cheaper - so you need more of them, thus more shots land on them etc etc.


Quote:
The problem is that TBTs and Tarants can only come from in-galaxy. Do I need to explain the problem with this further?
This isnt a problem tbh - most (large) alliances have at least one other friendly in-gal. If you know that your race is vulnerable to FI when the ship stats are unleashed, then you buddy with someone who will be able to cover that gap. Also, any prelaunched FI fleets ('lo Visionaries) will be able to potentially be covered by Universe (or even in-C, heh) TBT/Pegs.

Even a reletively small proportion of sents would make it too costly to land (you know - the point of my post), even if there was a high proportion of loss. Similarly, Beetles + Cutlasses could be sent to stun (minimise losses) then steal the enemy FI. This, also, normally makes it too expensive to land. this is especially the case when the Defending Zik already has alot of CO that can be used to flak Beetles and/or other Cutlasses.

Obviously .

Then again, that might all change with the new stats... .
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 15:52   #25
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Then they would be even harder to kill, as even fewer shots land on them and thus still getting full cap with even a higher proportion of fleet loss .

The 'solution' is to make them cheaper - so you need more of them, thus more shots land on them etc etc.
I suggested exactly that a while ago, and Jester pretty much wrecked the idea. Here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
This isnt a problem tbh - most (large) alliances have at least one other friendly in-gal. If you know that your race is vulnerable to FI when the ship stats are unleashed, then you buddy with someone who will be able to cover that gap. Also, any prelaunched FI fleets ('lo Visionaries) will be able to potentially be covered by Universe (or even in-C, heh) TBT/Pegs.
You might have the friendly in-gal, but usually the entire galaxy is under attack, making cross-defence less likely. Not all alliances have pure Vsn, etc, buddy packs, so can you trust those other planets in the galaxy?

Oh, and you never know when pre-launches are going to launch anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Even a reletively small proportion of sents would make it too costly to land (you know - the point of my post), even if there was a high proportion of loss. Similarly, Beetles + Cutlasses could be sent to stun (minimise losses) then steal the enemy FI. This, also, normally makes it too expensive to land. this is especially the case when the Defending Zik already has alot of CO that can be used to flak Beetles and/or other Cutlasses.

Obviously .
Yes, I realise that since Xan FI armour is about as strong as a wet paper bag, it doesn't take a lot of ships to force a recall. And of course Beetles + Cutlasses are a nice combo, although just
Beetles makes your Cath defenders cry. Oh, and lets not forget freezing all the Vsks, only for the Daggers to flak through anyway. That was mean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Then again, that might all change with the new stats... .
My offer of 'creative guidance' still stands
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 17:09   #26
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Not all alliances have pure Vsn, etc, buddy packs, so can you trust those other planets in the galaxy?
Excuse me for interfering, but for the galaxy command to create an atmosphere where you can trust those other planets in the galaxy it is not only a job but also a challenge. Politics skills play a role in this game, remember?


Quote:
Oh, and you never know when pre-launches are going to launch anyway.
Yes, and that's a pain -- as Jester shoot out your idea, I got shot on the other thread for suggesting a timer on the jump probe.

Quote:
My offer of 'creative guidance' still stands
It's quite a lot of fun looking through the stats without having dipped your own spoon into them, though.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 17:35   #27
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Re: cath buff idea

I don't see a problem with implementing the idea of distributing shots by armour rather than by ship numbers. All it does is make EMP more effective and reduce XP whoring by suiciding, both fine by me.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 17:37   #28
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Excuse me for interfering, but for the galaxy command to create an atmosphere where you can trust those other planets in the galaxy it is not only a job but also a challenge. Politics skills play a role in this game, remember?
Oh that's true, absolutely. But it's not guaranteed.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yes, and that's a pain -- as Jester shoot out your idea, I got shot on the other thread for suggesting a timer on the jump probe.
Yep happens. Jester did a number on my suggestion, but he was right...just a little brutal. Personally I would drop the jumpgate probe length to around ETA+7/+8, just so that people can't leave pre-launches on a planet all night.

Seriously though...pre-launch leaves a planet open to so much countering, it's unreal. Got a big Xan pre-launched, hitting you with his FI? Send CO at him and either get free roids, or force him to recall. It's easy enough to make a pre-launcher lose out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
It's quite a lot of fun looking through the stats without having dipped your own spoon into them, though.
Also true. But there's only one thing I've ever found more satisfying, and that's successfully producing your own stats that 'work'. I made some Cath ones near the end of last round, which included dropping the Viper to CO
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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 06:30   #29
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Re: cath buff idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
which included dropping the Viper to CO
mere co-incidence .



BTW, i happen to disagree with Banned/Jester on the pod thing. You know, he isnt like Tactitus - you can disagree with Jester and stillbe correct .

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Unread 21 Jun 2005, 09:53   #30
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Re: cath buff idea

Got to say, I for one agree with Jester about the pod system. I think the current way to go is good. Moreover, being correct or wrong here is a question of flavor. Some people prefer easier swapping of roids, some want to create unbreakable fortresses.
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