Discussion about merging.

[teknik]

Originally Posted by wakey

Boo hoo hoo, lets all cry because ND have alot of incoming.

wake up and realise mass incoming isnt something ND have a monopoly on. EVERY SINGLE ONE of us gets mass incoming ona regular basis, in fact as has been highlighted on this very forum those of us not involved in block wars are getting MORE incoming on many occasions than those in the block wars.

I mean I get incoming because of my LCH gal mates, Incoming due to my 1up gal mates. incoming due to my wp gal mates, incoming due to my ND gal mates ect ect. However while it seems ND members get this incoming and give up (I was told last night the figure of only 10 of the 80 were still 'active', not sure how accurate that is though) while the rest of us just get on with it and do out best. if we were all as flaky as ND seem to be this game wouldnt have any players ffs.

Just because your members are flaky isnt a valid reason why the 72 hour wait period shouldnt be in place for alliances merging like it is for solo players, in fact the advantages the initial advantages it brings far outweigh the disadvantages and as such the wait period should be even more applicable in this situation

well done for missing the point entirely wakey. notice how i never claimed ND had more incomings than anyone else? the point was: people are claiming its somehow an advantage to start as 2 alliances then merge 4 weeks before the end, because you "avoid" incomings being smaller..and this isn't true

And if this merger system is so flawed why didnt you bring it up before now then?

[wakey]

Originally Posted by besteman

what in earth do you mean by that?

sure ND got incoming, if ND got more or less incoming then other alliances is not the point. nor is it that ND members are, according to you, pantsy's who run at the first sign of incoming.

the reason for the merger was to spark back intrest in the round and pa, the merger was used to up morale, it was done to make sure our members would stay in this game and play it with fun.

it was not done to get a better rank, nor was it done to reduce incoming.

a group of 100 willing and active individuals, roiding galaxy's, talking dirty, defending the impossible. that's alot more fun to play then to sit out the remaining weeks and suck up the incoming fleets.

don't you agree?

As i've said over and over again I dont have any problem with mergers, what i have a problem with is a system which is little more than PAteam authorised cheating. Your alliances were both 'failing' this round and you have both taken a none gaming action that gets around the failings. Now yes i know its not illegal in the game but its one of these things like wearing fur, its not illegal but its 'ethically' wrong as theres rules in place to prevent things like "buying of defence" which the merger system as it is circumnavigates.

if alliances need to merge for whatever reason they should be bound by the same rules as a solo player so that theres no immediate gain and to make the merger something that has some bumps in the road so that it isnt just gain after gain for those involved. Think of it in terms of something like football, a team that struggling and is going to the wall can go into administration to save them, but they are penilised for doing so with a point penalty. The wait period in PA is the games answer to a point penalty, one half of the alliance will find themselves penilised (ie left allianceless for 72 hours) while both sides have some real work to to do get the members into the new alliance.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by teknik

And if this merger system is so flawed why didnt you bring it up before now then?

I did

[alch]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Sure alch.

Your a goddamn hypocrite. Was that straight to the point enough?

This game has been riddled with people who did multi, used fraudent crediccards, used bots, systematicly account-shared on a large scale, bought themself a new high-ranking planet from someone when their original planet was killed in battle, DDOS'ed the enemys irc server etc etc.

Several of Angels members have been convicted of beeing involved in these things that I have outlined above. I wont mention names this time, since I usually repspect you, but dont count on it next time I see yourself or Kjeldoran running around critizing ND and SiN for something legimtimate and done by the book.

P.S Its just as hypocritical as when the Fury PR squad tells everyone how bad Exhiltion is for using weaker alliances to flak them (like Fury always did).

Being called hypocryte is something i can cope with since i think everyone who is involved in politics in this game has to play by the rules, lie and also sometime manipulate and so on.. so no offence taken of course.

You can name the people who did what you think they did, i know that we have in Angels some people who did cheat in the past, something i know for sure is that every alliance had people who cheated in the past and so on.. as mentioned before it was a part of the game and people did gain ranks by donations and bots and so on.. and taking the fact that 80% of the people did that in the game, not doing so yourself meant you would been out of the game if you competed for the top10 position, That mean EVERYONE who did compete seriously in the past did cheat in some way.
I tend to give a second chance, except some particular case (TP case). But i can assure you that if i would knew for sure that one of the member in the alliance i lead would cheat nowdays, he would been kicked right away, but since i dont lead any alliance this round, i wont be able to do so.

You can ask the PA admin the amount of people i did report, even from my own alliance, asking to lead an investigation to make sure the one i hold in my own alliance arent cheaters.
So basically you call me an hypocryte because i hold some ex-cheater? i tend to give a second chance if the friendship and the loyalty they have toward me is strong enough and if they swear they wont cheat again. I might be a little bit naive aswell.

Plus i did whine regarding the ND and Sin Situation a little bit on the other thread, and on this thread, but i did also write at the end of the long discussion we had here, that i came to the conclusion that my whining was too much compared to what really happened and that if we just won 100 actives members in PA then i prefer to forget about this merge and the consequences and be happy that the future of PA is brighter and this round will be more interesting.

Plus i never criticed or said ND or SIN were cheaters, i just said that in my opinion, the rules werent good and that it need to change a little bit to make sure that such merge wont be THAT easy in the future, i dont imply that ND and SIN merge were easy and they did it to gain ranks but i do imply that other alliance MIGHT do it for the ranks and ruin the game just to their own favor and win the round and that i WANT to stop. I want this merge procedure be something hard to do and something you put enough though in it before you go toward it.

I wont mention names this time, since I usually repspect you, but dont count on it next time I see yourself or Kjeldoran running around critizing ND and SiN for something legimtimate and done by the book.

You can name the name of the people if you want, because i am sure you will find me criticize someone else in the future, its in my nature to air my thoughs and open a discussion to see what the community think about certain matters, that doesnt mean i am right or not, sometimes i even retract my comment or my post if i find i made a mistake. Without airing my though i think i wouldnt be able to know if im wrong because none of you will be able to counter me and explain me your points of views.
I do encourage people to write what they think and even if its to slag me or my alliance if needed, as long you dont put forward unbased claims or flame us in a matter that dont help the discussion.
This is part of the game and part of any good and vital discussion i think.

[_Kila_]

Originally Posted by Corpse

And getting there hands on the best damn MO/BC in history

http://www.sin-hq.org/corpse.jpg

ftw !

You hideous monstrosity

[Gumbie]

He's just put that picture there to try to entice me back to the thread. Everyone knows I'm the best

/me waves to the trainee

[Alki]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

It was pretty obvious both SiN and ND were struggling. What would you have done in our position? Lose without trying your hardest WITHIN the rules to succeed?

If thats the case, it says a lot more about you than it does about us.

well lets start by saying i dont oppose the merger. I just think its a sad day when 2 established alliances have to merge to gain something. What does it say about them before the merge then?

[Storebo]

Round 11 mistu and phraktos merged exactly the same way..

[SteInMetz]

Originally Posted by Alki

well lets start by saying i dont oppose the merger. I just think its a sad day when 2 established alliances have to merge to gain something. What does it say about them before the merge then?

It says that we put our members over everything.. as with the incs we got (not saying it was abnormal), and the low moral we had, we might even have been pushed longer down the rankings.. Which mean a playerbase of 80 goes more or less inactive.. Is that good for the game? is that what you all want to achieve? well if so, you are fcking retards..

[Duncan]

I left SiN about 4 days before I noticed the new union of love on my universe screen. SiN helped teach me the ropes, but with the rapidly dwindling member base (guess cause they were preparing for the big day, but active players were leaving as well) and wave after wave not seeing a single def fleet I decided to jump a sinking ship and join a better ally. I made the decision for myself and to hopefully help my planet in the longrun.

Oh yeah, and to increase my personal "moral" and boost my "energy levels"

Focus: The merge makes sense, cause both seemed to be taking quite a spanking. From their own admissions, members were becoming more and more inactive. It definately strengthens the 1up side. As wakey has mentioned elsewhere -- I don't see why individual planets have to go 72 ticks solo whereas 35+ planets can instantly join a new ally for immediate and longterm attack/def/ranking benefits. With absolutely no downside. Our motives are similar but the impact of a full fledged merge is much larger then one player switching to a friendly ally. Let's be honest, at least one other alliance would have taken advantage if ND or SiN had dissolved for 72 ticks.

Adjust however you please, but for ****s sake, the rules should be consistent at least.

[aNgRyDuCk]

Originally Posted by Alki

well lets start by saying i dont oppose the merger. I just think its a sad day when 2 established alliances have to merge to gain something. What does it say about them before the merge then?

It says nothing, but that they were struggling, for whatever reason....therewill be no beheadings..there will be no coup de tat....we just had a lot of real life stuff get in the way of activity, so don't read more into it...

[Alki]

so now all the real life issues have dissapeared and you can now start to play pa?

[coffee-]

I'm not sure what the big deal is. Get over it.

They could of done it the slow way and have the 72 hour waiting period, where it would just make it more difficult to defend for those three days. But then once the 72 hours were over it would sitll be the same outcome. Especially if they managed to do it inconspicuously. Though it is the nature of PA players to whine and complain when something unexpected happens.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by coffee-

I'm not sure what the big deal is. Get over it.

They could of done it the slow way and have the 72 hour waiting period, where it would just make it more difficult to defend for those three days. But then once the 72 hours were over it would sitll be the same outcome. Especially if they managed to do it inconspicuously. Though it is the nature of PA players to whine and complain when something unexpected happens.

The point is, alliances are annoyed because SiN and/or ND would have been massacred during that 72 hour waiting period.

As it is, the enemy alliances who have been hitting ND throughout the round don't get to pick off free roids, in this, and so are bitching about the fact that the round hasn't been handed to eXilition on a silver platter.

Additionally, this gives enemy alliances who aren't too interested in eXi's victory a chance to jump on a bandwagon without attracting extra incs. They can claim to not be part of an enemy block and instead hit SiNND using the excuse of 'OMG EVUHL MERGERS!11'. It's almost as laughable as LCH's point of view last round that ND were somehow handing the round to 1up and by not backstabbing their allies, the best way to defend a 35k roid/40 million score lead would be to hit the #3 ranked alliance with everything, night after night.

Look, I can make blanket statements using only my point of view and taking nothing else into account too.

[coffee-]

Ahh it all makes sense now Gate. Thanks for clarifying.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by coffee-

I'm not sure what the big deal is. Get over it.

They could of done it the slow way and have the 72 hour waiting period, where it would just make it more difficult to defend for those three days. But then once the 72 hours were over it would sitll be the same outcome. Especially if they managed to do it inconspicuously. Though it is the nature of PA players to whine and complain when something unexpected happens.

It could have been the same outcome yes, and yes if they were smart they might have got away without raising too many suspicions but something thats so advantagous to an alliance shouldnt be made so easy. Gaining an upper hand should have some kind of skill about it and its so easy to pull it off well that theres no skill.

As for saying it was inexpected, hardly mergings been one of my pet hates this round and such a situation is one ive been raising for most of the round. Ofc everyone dismissed it as something that couldnt happen and that merging wasnt a problem at the time I was raising it.

[virogenesis]

Wouldn't a making it a feature be an idea like having a screen where the hcs of other alliances get to see a merger warning before it actually happens & putting a cap on how many members you can kick prior to a merge I believe this could be a solution to such a issue as it will allow the smaller alliances to grow & the bigger alliances will have to face a handicap because it weaken them for a period of time.

[Clogg]

[/quote]I left SiN about 4 days before I noticed the new union of love on my universe screen. SiN helped teach me the ropes, but with the rapidly dwindling member base (guess cause they were preparing for the big day, but active players were leaving as well) and wave after wave not seeing a single def fleet I decided to jump a sinking ship and join a better ally. I made the decision for myself and to hopefully help my planet in the longrun.
[/quote]

Yes due to to incomming we unfortunetely did lose some quality members. Which is always sad, but you cannot control everything, especially when you are already 3 fleeting on def.

But I must say I was surprised aswell when ND approached us for a merger, cause I had the feeling I was on a sinking ship. But this merger really lifted my spirit, Never imagined we would even land 3rd spot. Top 10 that was to be expected, but 3rd even.

The good thing out of this merger is that there is a whole new private channel, bustling with members who for the bigger part regained the spirit and have faith again. Some are still cautious, but they will be with us for 200% soon. So let's hope we will maintain this momemtum, since this will benefit your round experience as well I think!!!

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by Gate

The point is, alliances are annoyed because SiN and/or ND would have been massacred during that 72 hour waiting period.

I think they are annoyed because theyve worked all round to decimate ND and Sin and now all of their efforts have been for naught. The final slap in the face is that you have now leap frogged them in rankings.

As it is, the enemy alliances who have been hitting ND throughout the round don't get to pick off free roids, in this, and so are bitching about the fact that the round hasn't been handed to eXilition on a silver platter.

Last I looked Wp still held the lead. Exi may have taken them but it had not been accomplished yet.

The biggest factor in your merger imo is that it gave a huge shot in the arm to your block. You now have 7 mostly powerful top 10 alliances with the same goal.

Additionally, this gives enemy alliances who aren't too interested in eXi's victory a chance to jump on a bandwagon without attracting extra incs. They can claim to not be part of an enemy block and instead hit SiNND using the excuse of 'OMG EVUHL MERGERS!11'.

Very subtle ;-)

The facts of the matter is that you both were 2 beaten alliances this round who had a heck of alot of strong players in your midst. So merging was a super move on both your parts.

The reasons you merged are the same reasons people are pissed
1)It gave you 100 actives +dc's/bc's, it turned you into a a powerhouse over night
2)gave you a lovely ranking
3)stregnthened your block
4) gave you a serious shot at number #1 if you can outroid WP, as most of the top 10 are with you and the rest are tied up elsewhere.

And you accomplished this all by using the magic words "lets merge"

Im not complaining about any of this, but you have to be blind not to see were the complainers are coming from.

[Chika]

I think this is actually a semi-decent thread. Sadly, the side that hates the idea of SINND really has yet to make a valid point as to why it was wrong for them to do so. The Pro- SINND group produce the issue and fact that this is in the manual. Before the round started even.
In conclusion, due to the bitter reactions by certain people like say the thread starter, one could conclude that SINND wtfpwned the universe, with a strong political move. No big mass attacking fleets, no lies, no cheat, no steal, Just owned.
THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD

P.S
Vadar, currently I am off and on.

[TehVader]

I'm on leave from the army atm, you know where to find me if you want too catch up

[Xeno]

Originally Posted by Deceiver

It's definitely unfair for the admin to make such changes to the game. They should've had to gone 72 ticks without an alliance if they wanted to make a new one.

When hirr joined forces with NoS back in PaX, all hirr members were unprotected for 72 hours (although not all at once). This is the only way to do it.


Xeno

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Xeno

When hirr joined forces with NoS back in PaX, all hirr members were unprotected for 72 hours (although not all at once). This is the only way to do it.


Xeno

tbh back then we we did that it didn't occur to us to ask an admin - this has now been in the manual for several rounds with some high profile mergers - that said the system will be stricter next round.

[Zh|l]

Originally Posted by Xeno

When hirr joined forces with NoS back in PaX, all hirr members were unprotected for 72 hours (although not all at once). This is the only way to do it.


Xeno

Back in r2 I could shipfarm. Damn updates.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Kal

tbh back then we we did that it didn't occur to us to ask an admin - this has now been in the manual for several rounds with some high profile mergers - that said the system will be stricter next round.

It's so much fun to see you bend over backwards.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

The reasons you merged are the same reasons people are pissed
1)It gave you 100 actives +dc's/bc's, it turned you into a a powerhouse over night
2)gave you a lovely ranking
3)stregnthened your block
4) gave you a serious shot at number #1 if you can outroid WP, as most of the top 10 are with you and the rest are tied up elsewhere.

And you accomplished this all by using the magic words "lets merge"

Im not complaining about any of this, but you have to be blind not to see were the complainers are coming from.

Merge yourself.

It's simply really. ND and SiN were basically acting as a lot of people's punchbags, so they went 'o rly' and sorted out the problem by merging, and give their members something to play for.

Everyone else can do the same within the rules. People can (and should) complain as much as they like, but surely a thread such as this would be better served as being in Planetarion Discussions/Suggestions as something to develop the game for next round. Everyone started the round with the same set of rules, ND/SiN have played by those rules - there's no changing them, and little point criticising them now on AD because to go back on a rule is suicidal for PA team.

If you want to accuse ND and SiN of cynicism and playing against the 'spirit' of the game, feel free, but there is a SiNND thread for that, this is a 'merger discussion'.

[Xeno]

Originally Posted by Zh|l

Back in r2 I could shipfarm. Damn updates.

I see your point. You fail to see mine.


Xeno

[alch]

this would be better served as being in Planetarion Discussions/Suggestions as something to develop the game for next round.

Feel free to move it to PS.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by alch

Feel free to move it to PS.

No it wouldnt as theres already a thread over there on how to change it. This is a thread on the ethical issues over PATeam allowing free mergers not how it can be improved

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

I think they are annoyed because theyve worked all round to decimate ND and Sin and now all of their efforts have been for naught. The final slap in the face is that you have now leap frogged them in rankings.



Last I looked Wp still held the lead. Exi may have taken them but it had not been accomplished yet.

The biggest factor in your merger imo is that it gave a huge shot in the arm to your block. You now have 7 mostly powerful top 10 alliances with the same goal.


Very subtle ;-)

The facts of the matter is that you both were 2 beaten alliances this round who had a heck of alot of strong players in your midst. So merging was a super move on both your parts.

The reasons you merged are the same reasons people are pissed
1)It gave you 100 actives +dc's/bc's, it turned you into a a powerhouse over night
2)gave you a lovely ranking
3)stregnthened your block
4) gave you a serious shot at number #1 if you can outroid WP, as most of the top 10 are with you and the rest are tied up elsewhere.

And you accomplished this all by using the magic words "lets merge"

Im not complaining about any of this, but you have to be blind not to see were the complainers are coming from.

I so agree with this. Some pple just call those that complain whiners (and yes we did whine about it) but if you're too ignorant and biassed to see where those complaints come from ...

Like Lokken said, it's all within the rules and you'll never hear me yelling that it's cheating or something but I am/was quite annoyed for the reasons Fyodor mentionned, I think that's reasonable not?

Apart from that I'll say it again, gl out there and for your sake I hope the merger is a long term solution, otherwise it killed both your membercore's.

[themast]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

Apart from that I'll say it again, gl out there and for your sake I hope the merger is a long term solution, otherwise it killed both your membercore's.

explain how that could happen?

[Squidly]

Apparently I'm a bigger newbie than I ever thought =/ I always thought having a load of active players working together towards a common goal was a GOOD thing.

And you know what, even if things do go to heck, It's been fun thus far goofing off with the SiN folk. Most of them are absolute loonies, and those that aren't will be corrupted soon

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by themast

explain how that could happen?

you mix 2 loyal memberbases, pple get to know eachother etc .... If you split that up again don't count on both having exactly the same pple afterwards.

It's no rocketscience, I hope you realize aswell that this "new situation" changes the loyalty of your members. It's be rather stupid if the ND members only stay loyal to the ND HC and defend their fellow ND before covering a Sin ... and vica versa.
So therefor, the loyalty of ALL members should be shiffted towards SINND and not to SIN or ND. If you succeed in that (which is the point of a merger) then splitting it up again will cause problems.

I hope you understand what I mean

[themast]

i meant i doubt somthing like that would happen

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by themast

i meant i doubt somthing like that would happen

well I never implied it would, thought you asked me to explain why a split would cause trouble for both ...

[wakey]

Originally Posted by themast

i meant i doubt somthing like that would happen

TBH i think theres probally a very high chance of some kind of split happening further down the line. Two groups can work together on a short term basis but getting the two of the fully intergrate longer term rarely workd flawlessly. It requires both sides to let go of their egos and for every members to be ready to act as one which is something thats hard to acheive. Even some of the most successful; mergers in the games history have had fall out further down the line when the two communities cant fully merge because one side 'talks' down to the other, or one side feels they are being treated as second class citziens or simply the two communities just arent as compatable as it was first thought. or even the members dont feel comfortable at their new level.

I wouldnt be suprised to see ND reatain some of the more eager SiN while a number of them and some of ND who dont like the 'new' alliance and head off elsewhere perhaps even reforming SiN

[lokken]

Originally Posted by wakey

No it wouldnt as theres already a thread over there on how to change it. This is a thread on the ethical issues over PATeam allowing free mergers not how it can be improved

My point of view is that the ethics of this don't even apply here on AD. Alliances played within the rules, and the only thing we can criticise legitimately on this is for ND/SiN's cynicism instead of showing a more true account of their performance so far this round - I don't see how PA team should have any blame for following their own rules. However, should they provide a performance worthy to overhaul their enemies and maintain their positon (which is by no means cut and dry) I think that all things considered, they'd be worthy winners because if it has given their members a kick up the arse, it'll show, they'll grind out results and should rightly reap the rewards of their HC's nous and their hard work in getting there.

As for moving this thread to PD, I wouldn't inflict alliance politics on PD or Suggestions - it's simply ludicrous that alliance bias should have any weighting in how the game be modelled for the future. If people want to discuss it in terms of future of the game and pure statistical/ideological terms that's their lookout and as you've said, there is a thread to do that.

[fizzyxl]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

you mix 2 loyal memberbases, pple get to know eachother etc .... If you split that up again don't count on both having exactly the same pple afterwards.

I actually totaly agree, I will almost certainly stay with SiN next round, but i would rather stay as SiNND, if not under a new name.

So far SiNND has been great fun, The ND peeps are all great people and the joint channel is always bustling with people. Always a great atmosphere... and yes we are all mad as fish.

So I would really hate going back to split alliances. Esp as i can see the member count going down due to it.

But we shall see how the rest of this round goes ey

[Neferti]

Originally Posted by wakey

TBH i think theres probally a very high chance of some kind of split happening further down the line. Two groups can work together on a short term basis but getting the two of the fully intergrate longer term rarely workd flawlessly. It requires both sides to let go of their egos and for every members to be ready to act as one which is something thats hard to acheive. Even some of the most successful; mergers in the games history have had fall out further down the line when the two communities cant fully merge because one side 'talks' down to the other, or one side feels they are being treated as second class citziens or simply the two communities just arent as compatable as it was first thought. or even the members dont feel comfortable at their new level.

I wouldnt be suprised to see ND reatain some of the more eager SiN while a number of them and some of ND who dont like the 'new' alliance and head off elsewhere perhaps even reforming SiN

No sign of this happening yet, though it is very early days

I love the SiN people, I wish we'd merged sooner