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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 07:38   #1
s|k
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Is this real?

Is it? I asked this at 14, when I was in Hillcrest, an emergency home for children. It was when I first finally understood the finality of death. First understood it's inevitability. I was panic stricken. I was so frightened by it, my chest would heave and I couldn't participate in any of the events with the other kids. There were a couple of staff, as we called them, who talked to me and somehow made it better, but it took awhile for the panic to stop attacking me.

I just had to stop thinking about it. Now I've just seen that Movie 'The Forgotten,' and not the greatest movie, but movies like this where things are not what they seem are always a bit unsettling and they get me thinking. When I was 14 and dealing with the concept of death, I asked questions such as 'Is any of this real?,' 'is this TV that I'm sitting next to real?' The lady, a large, caring but harsh, black woman assured me that it was real. But why would I ask that? Why would I question reality when putting my mortality together. It's giving me the goosebumps just thinking about it.

The question, it's such a cliche, an overused concept in bad movies, something asked by stoned college kids half out of their minds. In the end it's never taken serious. Is this real? It's not something you can answer with a post, or any other words or ideas. I'm not asking a philosophical question based on some abstract theory or idea talked about by some long dead Philosopher. I'm talking about your life. My life. We shrug off the question, maybe it's unanswerable. But maybe there is an answer and we just don't want to know the truth. Ever get that feeling you're not alone? Ever get that feeling that this is all somehow too easy.

I'm not satisfied with the academic answers. I'm not satisfied by religious teaching. There's something. We're ignoring it. We're afraid. But in the end, it will catch up to us. WE'LL FIND OUT, WHETHER WE WANT TO OR NOT.

I've seen something once that I can't explain. It was a 'UFO.' I seen it, and my foster brother saw it and then it zoomed away at speeds not physically possible. And then when my foster brother went to sleep there was a green ****ing light shining into our room. And I didn't have the courage to look out the window when it happened.

I've hallucinated on drugs once. I didn't mean to take hallucinogens, someone sneaked them into the thing I actually wanted to take. I had never hallucinated before, and I didn't expect to so, IMAGINE MY SURPRISE WHEN MY FRIENDS FACE MELTED BEFORE MY VERY EYES.

This may seem like unintellectual rambling, but I'm not speaking with my logical facilities, I'm speaking from fear. I think we can know the answer (oh yes it's 42 I forgot) if we want to, I think we know but when we get into a state in which we could be possibly open to whatever answer lies out there for us, it terrifies us.

I think that in a quiet state, maybe after having not eaten much, with a few other people who are doing this with you, or just by yourself you could summon the answer. Summon something.

No, I'm not doing any drugs right now.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 08:22   #2
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Re: Is this real?

Not 42, but another piece of Adam's wisdom:

Arthur Dent: You know, this explains a lot. Because all my life, I've had this unaccountable feeling in my bones that something sinister was happening in the universe and that no one would tell me what it was.

Slartibartfast: Oh, no. That's just perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the universe has that.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 11:25   #3
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Re: Is this real?

If you are worried about death, you may want to read about Epikur's "philosophical medicine" (for example his letter to Menoikeus).

My english is too limited to precisely express the following, so please excuse me if it sounds clumsy or wrong worded.

If you read up about the current state of criminology science regarding witnesses and the current scientific state about neurologic research and psychology regarding perception (and probably a bit about AI), you realise that there isnt "one" reality among humans. Humans want a simple environment to make decisions and orientation in it easier. Our brain filters and simplifies reality for us and "smoothes out" complex unexplainable things to avoid overwhelming us and thereby paralising us because we cant make decisions fast enough to survive. If you dont focus your concentration on something, you are probably just dealing with a illusion.

It is a bit "funny" that after reading a lot of scientific research and analysis about this coming from different scientific angles, it seems that Plato's cave analogy and his philosophy "isnt that far off".

Ofc. Douglas Adams said it in an even shorter way
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 12:59   #4
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Re: Is this real?

Who cares?
Just have fun and enjoy it.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 19:00   #5
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Re: Is this real?

I'm sorry. I am not sure what the question is.

I have often wondered about colors. I see a color and call it green. Other people see the same thing and call the color green. However, if I could see it through their eyes, what they are actually seing, would I recognize it as green. Is green really green or just a convention so that we can communicate on a common basis?
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 19:04   #6
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Re: Is this real?

If life isn't real it's a decent approximation. That's all I ask for to be honest.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 19:54   #7
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
IIRC different cultures have different opinions on certain cultures. Some tribe in the Pacific had no way of differentiating between blue and green (they called both green), while they differentiated between two different colours of yellow, that no European persons would see any difference between.

All off this is taken from an article I skimmed trough some years back, I will not stand for any off it should it turn out to be wrong.
You must be joking. Also I'm genuinely laughing out loud at "no way of differentiating between blue and green (they called both green)".
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 20:13   #8
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Re: Is this real?

Yes, yes but saying they can tell the difference between two different hues of yellow no european could tell the difference between is a vastly different statement. (I asumme you get why I found your 'green statement' so amusing.)
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 21:27   #9
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I'm sorry. I am not sure what the question is.

I have often wondered about colors. I see a color and call it green. Other people see the same thing and call the color green. However, if I could see it through their eyes, what they are actually seing, would I recognize it as green. Is green really green or just a convention so that we can communicate on a common basis?
Yes the questions is simply this:

WTF.

Yes.

WTF.

Screen? Monitor? WTF? Keyboard? WTF? House? WTF? WTF? Sight? WTF? WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF? Life? WTF?

WHAT THE MOTHER****ING ****.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 21:35   #10
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If life isn't real it's a decent approximation. That's all I ask for to be honest.
What is real? Stop assuming things. It's not real, it's not anything. It's not even:

asd;pflijasd;fkjasd;fliqu3w4[r0 89ajdsf; kasjvdpq93747rt[;askldfj;q9e7w5 -0[q2i


It's nothing. But you can find out what it is. I think it is possible, but my argument is that we're too scared when we figure out that we can.

Imagine you lived in the desert you had a perfectly sane coworker who told you one day that he regularly met with extra terrestrials a few hours drive into the desert. Now you kind of shrug it off, but let's just say he expains this as a perfectly normal thing, and never makes an issue out of it and only brings it up naturally as such:

You: "So Carl, what did you do this weekend?"
Carl: "Oh, I hung out with the aliens again."
You: "Oh."

And so you continue to work with him a couple more years and it's never really an issue and one time, just out of curiosity you, by this time you simply imagine he's pulling your leg (because otherwise he's perfectly intelligent), you start a conversation about his alien friends in the desert. He obliges and then invites you to come with him.

Would you go? It's going to be at night a long drive into the desert, would you go? What if he's right? What if he really is meeting with aliens?

You're sort of just reading this bit abstractly far removed, but really imagine it. That's my point, the answer is out there, it's a long drive in the desert on a dark night to find out how real any of this is, and we don't want to take it because of our fear.

No I'm not arguing for the existance of aliens, I created a metaphor.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 22:17   #11
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'd definately go.

surely we are eternally doomed to our subjective perceptions, you earlier said you were not talking about some kind of philosophy (e.g. naive / representative realism) yet you're saying we can find out the truth if we face up to our fears ?
i'm not sure i know what you mean.
I think I'm saying that there is more to what we know or can find out (about our experience of life) than what we're willing to face.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 22:38   #12
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i can't think what it would be to be honest, i'm pretty sure i'd be willing to face it though.
The idea of there being something "more", is not only appealing but something i bloody well crave, so that i can be something other than some floating entity with nothing but paranoid thoughts to pass the time until i die alone
Well I think not only is it possible, but it is quite easy. It's not something I can really explain easily though. It's all very internal. It requires a bit of concentration. Loosen the anchors that bind you to reality, all becomes a dream and if you follow your fear it will lead you there. I'm not willing to do it anymore, but sometimes, it sneaks up on me. I know it may sound silly or not very clear, but I don't think everyone is able to do it simply because they're not willing to question fundamental aspects of their life experience.

Can you understand by what I mean by WTF?

I mean WTF?

WTF?

How can anyone even begin to explain anything really? It's not possible to verbalise the degree of doubt I have about everything. I mean doubt it. Doubt everything you experience, and then continue to doubt. Where does it lead? Is it a futile exercise? I'm not talking about ridiculous things such as an out of body experience, I'm talking about WTF. Does anyone at all understand what I'm saying? I'm not trying to dramatize the tedious. It's a pretty fundamental question that we walk around ignoring everyday. WTF. I mean WTF.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 23:04   #13
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
.
I did a project on colours during my degree.
I agree with Jonny.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 23:08   #14
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Re: Is this real?

like i said before - Who cares?

so long as you are enjoying your life what does it matter if it is real or not?

oh and has anyone in the thread so far defined 'real'?
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 23:13   #15
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Re: Is this real?

Reality is just how your scenes percieve the world around you.
If you lost the ability to interact with the physical world then the physical world would no longer be real to you.
I think the questions is: Does reality matter?
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 23:22   #16
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Reality is just how your scenes percieve the world around you.
If you lost the ability to interact with the physical world then the physical world would no longer be real to you.
I think the questions is: Does reality matter?
I think the OP juxtaposes the idea of 'reality' with individual perceptions. He questions whether our perceptions match and if there is a more universal reality.

I see the whole question as intertwined with the notion of truth. Probably impossible to answer.

I suppose this is where faith and/or science comes in.

PS. You lot are incredibly antagonistic. I'm not going to bother coming here.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 23:33   #17
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Re: Is this real?

I think the main problem is that there are plenty of "possibles" (e.g. we're all brains in a jar connected to a computer which is feeding absolutley perfect sensory data) but as we can never gain any information confirming/testing/challenging these hypothesis they are basically intellectual dead ends.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 00:17   #18
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
I think the OP juxtaposes the idea of 'reality' with individual perceptions. He questions whether our perceptions match and if there is a more universal reality.
Perceptions are never going to match completely, so why worry. He sees that chair as something to sit on, I see it as a clothes horse. I'd worry about perceptions if my perception of X was so different from everyone else's that I could no longer enjoy what I see as reality. Fortunately that hasn't happened.

If we agree that reality is just perceptions realised by our senses, mental and physical, then universal reality could only exist if we all agreed on it. So this removes reality with correctness or incorrectness but places it with mass acceptance.

As long as I'm safe and sound, I have the ability to enjoy others' company and can enjoy stuff like going abroad, who cares what's real, and whether it matches anyone else's reality?
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 03:07   #19
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Re: Is this real?

"You enjoy going abroad - you enjoy escaping your life. You do not enjoy your life."
Thank you to whoever gave me that little present. <3
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 00:02   #20
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
What is real? Stop assuming things. It's not real, it's not anything. It's not even:

asd;pflijasd;fkjasd;fliqu3w4[r0 89ajdsf; kasjvdpq93747rt[;askldfj;q9e7w5 -0[q2i


It's nothing. But you can find out what it is. I think it is possible, but my argument is that we're too scared when we figure out that we can.

Imagine you lived in the desert you had a perfectly sane coworker who told you one day that he regularly met with extra terrestrials a few hours drive into the desert. Now you kind of shrug it off, but let's just say he expains this as a perfectly normal thing, and never makes an issue out of it and only brings it up naturally as such:

You: "So Carl, what did you do this weekend?"
Carl: "Oh, I hung out with the aliens again."
You: "Oh."

And so you continue to work with him a couple more years and it's never really an issue and one time, just out of curiosity you, by this time you simply imagine he's pulling your leg (because otherwise he's perfectly intelligent), you start a conversation about his alien friends in the desert. He obliges and then invites you to come with him.

Would you go? It's going to be at night a long drive into the desert, would you go? What if he's right? What if he really is meeting with aliens?

You're sort of just reading this bit abstractly far removed, but really imagine it. That's my point, the answer is out there, it's a long drive in the desert on a dark night to find out how real any of this is, and we don't want to take it because of our fear.

No I'm not arguing for the existance of aliens, I created a metaphor.

Maybe you should go and take a long drive in the desert on a dark night.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 00:10   #21
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Re: Is this real?

only if there are cliffs.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 00:34   #22
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Re: Is this real?

Who wants to drive in a desert to see if there's aliens there when you could just eat chocolat instead?

I'm using a metaphor as well. Go me.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 05:41   #23
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Re: Is this real?

Does a rock exist, thats basically what you are getting at? Do you know that a rock exists?

I say i know that i rock exists, but i dont know that this (meaning one particular) rock exists. I know that their is a reality, but I can't know that this is the real reality, because i have no objective means of proving that i'm not being decieved.

We discussed this topic here last year.. i believe.. and no good answer was found >.>
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 05:43   #24
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Re: Is this real?

That's because you're all unempirical assholes that deserve death by cartesian lecturing.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 05:49   #25
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Re: Is this real?

Im not sure how being emperical would help :-/

Sure you can base reality on observation. But their are two problems with this.

1. You could be in an altered state of mind, in this case your brain perceives things that arent actualy there. (You might perceive a rock, but its not actaully there. Rocks exist, but the rock you perceive doesnt)

2. You could be decieved. (You are tricked into believe that their is a rock, but in reality it is a piece of cheese (so the saying goes) Rocks exist, but you are being tricked into believe that the peice of cheese is a specific rock).
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 05:55   #26
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Re: Is this real?

If you're being deceived sitting in a box refusing to move is in no bloody way worse than going around and eating rocks (or whatever you're suggesting). Also what in the blazes do you mean "rocks exist but the rock I perceive doesn't"? Why do rocks have to exist? I can imagine a unicorn but I'm pretty sure no unicorns exist.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 05:56   #27
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Re: Is this real?

I find that even the most radical skeptics out there, despite their beliefs that rocks may not exist, still don't want a rock in the face.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 06:00   #28
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Re: Is this real?

I can imagine a unicorn but I'm pretty sure no unicorns exist.


yes, and completing the circle (which is why this conversation never goes anywhere)

You cannot say that no unicorns exist, because you cannot know that you are not being decieved...


It is a lot easier to say that this (whatever) might not exist that it is to say that no (whatever) exists.

thats really all I have to add to this conversation, because there are a lot of people here who have argued this over and over again before me and are a whole lot smarter than me, on the subject.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 06:02   #29
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Re: Is this real?

Nothing exists. Especially you.

My point was that you can't claim that anything exists if you're into that sort of epistemological nihilism, not some sort of daft discussion over the existence of unicorns.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 16:01   #30
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
My point was that you can't claim that anything exists if you're into that sort of epistemological nihilism...
Well why is it possible to be into that epistemological nihilism in the first place? Isn't there some argument that can make nihilims seem absurd, and if there is what is it?
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 16:08   #31
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Re: Is this real?

Of course it's real.

Because reality is just this world that we live in.

Whether the world is "real" is not a valid question, because it's simply how we perceive it.

So of course it is real, because we are continually observing and taking in the world, and the world by all definitions is "reality".

Now stop talking bollocks and live your life instead of sitting around wondering if things exist or not.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 16:41   #32
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Well why is it possible to be into that epistemological nihilism in the first place? Isn't there some argument that can make nihilims seem absurd, and if there is what is it?
Nihilism of that sort is quintessentially pointless. If it's right you're ****ed and if it's wrong you're ****ed. If realism is right you're okay and if it's wrong you're ****ed. Not exactly the most tricky of prisoner's dilemmas is it?
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 17:22   #33
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Re: Is this real?

When I read that post about rocks, I thought he was talking about "the rock", the american wrestler. Mores the pitty.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 17:29   #34
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I can imagine a unicorn but I'm pretty sure no unicorns exist.
Then explain why New College Oxford owns TWO!! Unicorn horns yet my far superior college has none!
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 18:04   #35
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Re: Is this real?

unicorns derive from cave paintings of wild Ox where it was shown in profile and only one horn was visible.

Also from the stories about mystical one horned beasts of india. Now known to be rhino's.

Sailors used to sell the tooth of a narwhal (a type of whale) to people for vast sums of money telling them it was a magical horn of a unicorn which is where the shape of the horn comes from.

So there.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 18:06   #36
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
unicorns derive from cave paintings of wild Ox where it was shown in profile and only one horn was visible.

Also from the stories about mystical one horned beasts of india. Now known to be rhino's.

Sailors used to sell the tooth of a narwhal (a type of whale) to people for vast sums of money telling them it was a magical horn of a unicorn which is where the shape of the horn comes from.

So there.
goodness 'do you think'
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 18:10   #37
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
goodness 'do you think'
I wa just trying to educate a little
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 18:18   #38
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
IIRC different cultures have different opinions on certain cultures. Some tribe in the Pacific had no way of differentiating between blue and green (they called both green), while they differentiated between two different colours of yellow, that no European persons would see any difference between.
Color relativity isnt as strong as most people think - see Berlin and Kay - Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution. Although different languages do break up the colour spectrum in radically different ways (eg some only contain 2 different colour terms), certain colour identifications do seem to be universal amongst human societies, which is almost certainly a result of our physiology.

Imagine you asked an average English speaker to give a 'good example' of red. Chances are he would pick out something close to post-box red rather than a pale red. Similarly, most people share a common idea of what a good example of 'blue' or 'green' is. These judgements tend to be universal - even if you take a language where the people only have 2 different colour terms (one encompassing 'warm' colours like red/green/yellow and the other encompassing 'cold' colours like black/brown/blue), you'll still find that the examples they give of a stereotype 'warm' colour will be identical to either stereotype English red, green or yellow (ie they wont pick a pale red either). B&K found something like 11 'basic colours' which were universal. They also found various rules relating the different colour terms which languages contained (eg all languages contain white and black)

Similar research involving ability to make distinctions concerning colours which arent explicitly represented shows that language didnt really make any difference (dont have a source for this offhand sorry, but think how absurd it would be if people couldnt tell blue and green apart just because their language classified them both in the same way. English classifies both dark blue and pale blue as being 'blue', but this doesnt mean that English speakers cant distinguish between them).

Last edited by Nodrog; 4 Oct 2005 at 18:24.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 18:18   #39
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Re: Is this real?

The concept of the unicorn derived from an ancient cave drawing of an ancester of the modern GDers. It was a drawing of a horse with its tail at one end and a giant phalus growing out of its forehead. It was cave GD shorthand (a la btw, wtf, lol) for you're a horses-arse-dick-head.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 18:27   #40
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I wa just trying to educate a little
remind me next time to explain to you in great detail that water is wet and that the sky is blue.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 18:32   #41
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Does a rock exist, thats basically what you are getting at? Do you know that a rock exists?

I say i know that i rock exists, but i dont know that this (meaning one particular) rock exists. I know that their is a reality, but I can't know that this is the real reality, because i have no objective means of proving that i'm not being decieved.
Do us all a favour and see if the damn thing is real by smacking it repeatedly into your forehead.
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 22:24   #42
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Re: Is this real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
WHAT THE MOTHER****ING ****.
"WTF: When existentialism hits the Internet."
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