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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 14:08   #1
booji
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Stealing XP

First a disclaimer – this has probably been suggested before, on a quick search I did not find it!

The recent disputes about Mil Centers and whether xp is too strong seem to me to be missing the point. As Mz has pointed out it is clear that xp is not too strong simply by looking at the T100 from last round. Xp simply provides a bit of colour and for a few a different way of playing. This is clearly not something that should be wished away by capping mil centers or changing the formula to nerf xp because it is not something that greatly impacts on the enjoyment of the value players. Instead surely it should be built upon to increase that enjoyment.

So what I propose is that it should be possible to steal xp. This I believe should be done with a ship like this round’s Galleon for stealing resources.* I would probably make it like a SK and have it outside of main attacking classes if only because it encourages interesting teamups and ensures it won’t always be used helping to ensure it is not too powerful. Unlike this round’s Galleon I think it would make sense to have it available to all races rather than just Zik despite it being about stealing.

I don’t have a view on how much xp each ship should be able to steal except that the total amount should probably be capped – probably around 2% of the target’s xp which means early round its only going to mean about 100xp extra and by the end around 500xp for landing on a midranked planet in xp terms – though to Joshua it would mean 3200!

So what are the advantages of this? Well apart from it simply bringing in a new fun element to the game so providing something new to our stagnating game I think it has a few benefits:
1, it means that even top value players can gain xp as they can steal it from the xp players. This would solve concerns of those who think it is too difficult for top value players to gain xp.
2, it would force xp players to consider defence as well as attack. Clearly if they can lose xp as well as gain it they need to think about how to stop themselves losing it.
3, it would mean if anything xp could be made stronger and a more viable gameplay option as there would be an ingame mechanism to counter such a playstyle. This, I think, would make it a much more viable alliance strategy – at the moment with the honourable exception of HUEHUEHUE and HEROES alliances almost never aim to play xp leading to the same old keep value strategy round after round.

So what do you think? Is there a reason why it could not work? How could it be improved?

*I had initially thought of having it as a cov op but I doubt that stealing by cov ops is ever likely to be enough to make much difference, and cov ops already give xp so I am not sure how many people would use it. Besides many players don’t like cov opping to start with so I doubt such a suggestion would meet with a good reception; but if others out there think it is a better option do say!
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 14:33   #2
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Re: Stealing XP

I kinda like how xp function now, something you can gain but not loose
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 14:37   #3
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Re: Stealing XP

no thanks. bad idea.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 14:43   #4
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Re: Stealing XP

Blue_Esper please explain a little more why it is a bad idea... same reason as Plaguuu?

Plaguuu I dont understand your objection to it (or rather I would from almost anyone else but you!) as having it possible to lose xp would solve the concerns about how Joshua won or HEROKICKER got 3rd because in each instance there would be a way to counter the tactic. I personally think that having xp so that it always remains helps make things stagnant; there should be the risk of losing something when attacked even for xp players.

So long as there is no way to reduce xp then there will always be a difficulty in balancing it because the options to stop it are limited to stopping people from getting it in the first place. Possible but requiring foresight about who is going to aim for xp and a lot of effort to destroy their efforts. Better to have a way for players to take things into their own hands and balance against xp by taking it from each other in the same way as alliances balance their value against each other.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 15:28   #5
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Re: Stealing XP

Seriously. One thread to whine in isn't enough?
If something should be changed its the salvage.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 15:38   #6
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Re: Stealing XP

I dont see why this is seen as a whine - I here advocate more xp not less! I also have little reason to dislike people winning through xp as I have never been close to winning either through xp or through value so I don't really care how others to it - my own playstyle of sending lots of deffleets does not lend itself to either. If I was attempting to boost the chances of me winning then I would be asking for def xp to be given a big boost... now I mention it how about it?

What needs changed about salvage - you think we need more or less? I dont really see what the link is between being able to steal xp is and any change to salvage, please enlighten me.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 16:22   #7
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Re: Stealing XP

Stealing xp can also be abused. Rather than that I suggest:
Make a planet lose 15% xp whenever recall an atk fleet
Make it lose 15% xp if not atking for 24 ticks
Make it lose xp whenever it initiate roids, 100 x roids would be fine
Apply a 0.5 multiplier to xp formula
Make bravery factor as a function of fighting fleet on def side, if no def, no xp.
Increase con units to build mcs to 1500. Reduce its xp gain to 0.5%

That should be enough.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 16:22   #8
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Re: Stealing XP

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I dont see why this is seen as a whine - I here advocate more xp not less! I also have little reason to dislike people winning through xp as I have never been close to winning either through xp or through value so I don't really care how others to it - my own playstyle of sending lots of deffleets does not lend itself to either. If I was attempting to boost the chances of me winning then I would be asking for def xp to be given a big boost... now I mention it how about it?

What needs changed about salvage - you think we need more or less? I dont really see what the link is between being able to steal xp is and any change to salvage, please enlighten me.
I just don't see how stealing others experience would work, or even if it should. You can't steal others experience in any other game or real life situation. You might be able to learn from their experience, but never steal it away from them. Why should it be different here?
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 16:51   #9
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Re: Stealing XP

I am guessing this conceptual problem is the reason why it has not been suggested before (if it actually has not). My view would be that what other games do or real life should not really be a limit on what we can do in planetarion. If it would be more fun to be able to steal xp then why should we not do it simply because other games dont? Of course the consensus at the moment seems to be that it would not be fun at all!

However I also think you are wrong. Of course you don't lose - or still less have experience stolen - as a person, but that does not mean a planet cant have its experience stolen. In the real world where is experience located? In two ways 1, in books, computers, databases with information - these can clearly be stolen. And 2, in people/the population - which can also be stolen. Just think of it as kidnapping the top pilots/gunners etc. This was why I initially thought a cov op the more sensible or realistic option I just don't think it would work as well in planetarion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Stealing xp can also be abused. Rather than that I suggest:
Make a planet lose 15% xp whenever recall an atk fleet
Make it lose 15% xp if not atking for 24 ticks
Make it lose xp whenever it initiate roids, 100 x roids would be fine
Apply a 0.5 multiplier to xp formula
Make bravery factor as a function of fighting fleet on def side, if no def, no xp.
Increase con units to build mcs to 1500. Reduce its xp gain to 0.5%

That should be enough.
15% OUCH! Most players would have almost no xp in very little time. My problem with suggestions like this is that I dont want there to be less xp, I want there to be more, just for there to be more interesting ways to get it! To me the preventing people running away with the win due to lots of xp that never disappears is very much a secondary objective of the suggestion even if I will admit that it is what gave me the idea to make the suggestion.
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Last edited by booji; 8 Oct 2014 at 16:57.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 17:08   #10
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Re: Stealing XP

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I am guessing this conceptual problem is the reason why it has not been suggested before (if it actually has not). My view would be that what other games do or real life should not really be a limit on what we can do in planetarion. If it would be more fun to be able to steal xp then why should we not do it simply because other games dont? Of course the consensus at the moment seems to be that it would not be fun at all!

However I also think you are wrong. Of course you don't lose - or still less have experience stolen - as a person, but that does not mean a planet cant have its experience stolen. In the real world where is experience located? In two ways 1, in books, computers, databases with information - these can clearly be stolen. And 2, in people/the population - which can also be stolen. Just think of it as kidnapping the top pilots/gunners etc. This was why I initially thought a cov op the more sensible or realistic option I just don't think it would work as well in planetarion.
You can steal / kidnap the persons, steal / ruin the books/databanks.
It's still their experience, you can only learn so much from it, but you can never steal the experience.
On another note: I do not disclaim or claim this idea to be good/bad, tbh i wouldn't mind seeing the ability to steal xp or tamper with other players xp for a round atleast.

Might also be an idea to modify the "anarchy cov op" and add a reduced xp gain during this time. Will make it a more attractive cov op, would love to see stats of how many of each cov ops has been attempted and successfull over the past rounds. As i do't think Goverment Subversion is used to the extent it should be. ( it is a nasty cov op, but not nasty enough ) So adding something that tampers with targets xp gains might be an option. Could also consider stealing xp through cov ops... Maybe 0.1 - 0.5% xp for every 1 - 10 agents?
I'm sure we can easily calculate a way to make that balanced.
Also forces those heavy on XP to protect their alert level.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 17:14   #11
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Re: Stealing XP

I like the idea for the anarchy cov op. I guess it is not really used because it does not really benefit the cov opper himself. This means the only time it is really used is when someone in their alliance wants to try and prevent someone spending a stock of res. This would make it a more valuable cov op to alliances.

Perhaps my kidnapping was not the best example. Best would be the way that companies poach experienced staff members from rivals... unfortunately this is not very relevant to pa!
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 17:40   #12
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Re: Stealing XP

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
You can steal / kidnap the persons, steal / ruin the books/databanks.
It's still their experience, you can only learn so much from it, but you can never steal the experience.
All a bit narrow minded for a space game when the ships are in range (i.e. during the attack) some of the crew use some drugs to mentally rape the opposing commanders/pilots whatever, thus gaining their experience. The trauma also results in the victims forgetting.

I am in favour of it if it is quite limited, i suspect some of the opposition is that the indestructibility of xp is a bit of a comfort blanket!
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 17:44   #13
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Re: Stealing XP

It's not a bad idea, just not the direction I'd like PA to go in. As I said a while ago:
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Score as a measurement of past performance, value as a measurement of current power, and roids as a measurement of future growth.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 17:45   #14
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Re: Stealing XP

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
All a bit narrow minded for a space game when the ships are in range (i.e. during the attack) some of the crew use some drugs to mentally rape the opposing commanders/pilots whatever, thus gaining their experience. The trauma also results in the victims forgetting.

I am in favour of it if it is quite limited, i suspect some of the opposition is that the indestructibility of xp is a bit of a comfort blanket!
So they abandon ship, to enter their enemy ships, force drugs into their enemies bodies just to rape them mentally? And how will their experience be transferred this way? The trauma part is the only thing i understand of your point, as amnesia is more than possible.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 17:51   #15
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Re: Stealing XP

hmm the drugs bit was more they take the drugs and use it to escape their own minds and and enter those of the enemies.
My point was that wandering around someone else's head is such a standard sci-fi trope that I'm surprised people hadn't thought of it before.

Tbh, Why does there need to an explanation of how it happens at all?
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 20:14   #16
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Re: Stealing XP

XP is earned.. and shouldn't be stolen or removed.

Maybe we should go back to the days where zik ships actually gained value.. and maybe could give other races a value orientated boost..

...I like my suggestion of removing the cap on Finance Centres to further promote value play tbh!
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Round 18 - Rank 2 - eXilition (Zik)
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Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 29 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
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