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Unread 3 Oct 2014, 18:05   #251
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Originally Posted by Bastet View Post
Not bitching but I'd prefer PA team to make the stats.

I get they host the game etc but for the cost of the credit, or even 1-2 more, I'd rather the stats were made in-house than by other players.

There are a few people posting here with terrible PA reps but I don't think Appoco would ever use their stats, but still, I'd rather the PA team took this on themselves.

Papadoc's were fab, but I'd still rather see new PA team ones or reused nostalgia ones from waaaay back.
Exactly what i said. Give back this job to pa team.
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Unread 3 Oct 2014, 18:13   #252
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

You can repeat that a hundred times but it still wouldn't change the fact that PA Team doesn't have the time (and probably doesn't want to deal with stats), which is the whole reason why they want a 'stats committee' in the first place.
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Unread 3 Oct 2014, 19:42   #253
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
You can repeat that a hundred times but it still wouldn't change the fact that PA Team doesn't have the time (and probably doesn't want to deal with stats), which is the whole reason why they want a 'stats committee' in the first place.
Are they capable though?
The lack of creativeness and shallowness off the stats are a big issue.
Balancing it in the wrong eras is the issue
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Unread 3 Oct 2014, 22:03   #254
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Here's my one detailed post!

Looks to me like De needs a buff. Xan De is terrible, and Ter De is mediocre at best. The teamup makes up for a lot, but I'd still like Xan De to be able to roid at least 1 more race.

Zik has 2 ships that steal into a class that it cannot build itself: Rogue and Buccaneer. This is bad. I suggest swapping types with Cutter and Pirate.

I rather like that Xan has a Bs hole as long as they don't have Siege. They'er not helpless against it, but the Wraith is simply amazing.

I worry about the Judge/Beetle mechanic. EMP just cannot deal with an EMP ship that fires before it that can make the ETA. In addition, the Viper's init makes it fairly bad. The only ship that it'll beat in practice is the Thief, beacuse no one will build the Revenant. Swapping the types on the Beetle and Viper helps both ships.

I dislike how many races have targets they can only build one ship against. Fi/Co/Cr/Bs for Ter and Cat, Fi/De/Cr for Xan, Fi/Co/Fr/Bs for Zik and Etd. That makes the stats very static. Once people have figured out what fleets work best, there's nothing anyone can do about that any more. Mid-round strategy adjustments are virtually impossible, especially when dealing with Fi and Bs.

In addition, even for targets that races can build more than 1 ship to cover, in theory, many are bad. Sylph, Spider, Revenant, Pulsar, Cutter and Creditor (except for people who are 'lucky' enough to cap Illusion early) are all either completely useless, or even if they have a use as alliance defense ship, no one will build them anyway. Then again, I don't think we've ever had a set in which every ship had a point, so *shrug*.

Some small buffs to Cat's effs might be a good idea. They, more than any race, are hurt by having to build more than a handful of ships. I'd suggest increasing the standard 160% eff to 170%. And while you're at it, increase Zik's A/C and Ter's D/C by like 5-10% as well. They can use the buffs.

Revanant should be Revenant.

Final thoughts: these stats need some work, but they're far from bad. I don't see any of the deep subtleties that would make them great, but they'll do fine once Tiamat is finished with them.
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Unread 4 Oct 2014, 01:02   #255
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

This is my first round back after about 10 years of not playing. I think involving the community in making the stats is a positive move, but this thread is not the best advert for it.

People who make the stats are giving their time to the community and that deserves at least a basic level of respect. For me, this means there should be at least a minimum level of effort put into feedback on the stats. Much of the feedback here has been personal attacks or simple assertions with little justification for them. I don't want to suggest everyone is guilty of this - the post above this one is a good example of some constructive feedback - but still, too many of the posts in this thread are of poor quality.

Ultimately, I think the stats committee idea is a good one - the community / PAteam would need to ensure it operated in a fairly open way, but it has potential to be a positive force.

Out of interest, has such a thing ever been used in the past? If so, what were the issues/problems that mean it stopped?

If not, how about we actually start putting such a thing in place? It's probably too late for it to have any impact on the stats for next round, but it seems like now would be a good time to start putting such a thing in place in order to have something ready for next round.
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Unread 4 Oct 2014, 01:53   #256
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

No problem with zik stealing into classes they cannot build themselves imo, tho making the clipper de -> cr and a bit stronger would fix this and also might be a good change.

I dont really think ter and zik is in a bad place and in need off acdc buffs.
And I also believe the ships you names as useless have some good uses apart from the pulsar and revenant which are proper useless.(maybe make one of em a co hitting fi and remove the other as xan have 1 fighting ship more than the other races anyway)

Xan de is abit weak in solo roiding I agree but I don't really see a good way (atleast not this late) how to make xan de more viable, while keeping their fi viable, and having the awesome wraith and great teaming options with ter de. Just boosting their de would make them OP

About only having 1 ship vs certain classes I dunno if this is that bad a thing in ST as long as its pretty equal between the races. I believe the choice is more about do I leave a hole vs a class or not, instead of which class do I wanna cover the hole with.

I didnt worry too much about the judge beetle mechanic but think the judge needed a lower eff 100% max. Then again I kind lost my fear since etd most likely will have to put their anti co value in gryphons anyway.

Minor cat emp increase is probably ok
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Unread 4 Oct 2014, 07:53   #257
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Originally Posted by Haer View Post
This is my first round back after about 10 years of not playing. I think involving the community in making the stats is a positive move, but this thread is not the best advert for it.

People who make the stats are giving their time to the community and that deserves at least a basic level of respect. For me, this means there should be at least a minimum level of effort put into feedback on the stats. Much of the feedback here has been personal attacks or simple assertions with little justification for them.
I agree. Monroe used to keep people on a pretty tight leash on SD, but he's pretty much disappeared, and since then, the posting culture on AD has jumped the border this place.



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No problem with zik stealing into classes they cannot build themselves imo, tho making the clipper de -> cr and a bit stronger would fix this and also might be a good change.
I totally did not consider that option. It's a smaller change that achieves the same thing. Has my vote.

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
And I also believe the ships you names as useless have some good uses apart from the pulsar and revenant which are proper useless.
It's a bet. No more than 1% of the universe ship value will be represented by any of the ships I mentioned (so that's 6% total, for 15% of all ships), if their vital stats (targetting, type, init) remain the same.

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xan have 1 fighting ship more than the other races anyway
I'm not sure if you're implying that each race should have the same number of ships, but if you are: no, that is not even remotely problematic.
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Unread 4 Oct 2014, 09:48   #258
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Im not saying all race need the same number of ships, but I don't see a problem whatsoever removing a useless ship from a race that have more fighting ship than the others(xan)

About them useless ships
Cutter prefires ter de so will be built to some degree in zik fr strats even with pirate being so good vs de.

Sylph is a strong co anti fr which prefires zik fr with eta advantage(which and will be built especially in bs strats where both zik and ter has co anti fr and its ziks only option.

Creditor tho not great defensive purposes themselves,they can be useful to try and get yourself some de ships during the round.
Peg, Cerberus and to some degree bomber are great preinit ships that even if you steal just a few off em they can really lower ur incs, so can see some people going for theese.

But yeah spider might go in line with the xan ships mentioned as pretty much useless.
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Unread 4 Oct 2014, 10:12   #259
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Cutter prefires ter de so will be built to some degree in zik fr strats even with pirate being so good vs de.
I have no idea why I listed the Cutter as a useless ship. Roiding class ships are never useless. So let's forget that one.

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Sylph is a strong co anti fr which prefires zik fr with eta advantage(which and will be built especially in bs strats where both zik and ter has co anti fr and its ziks only option.
People will build the Centaur instead. Roiding class beats non-roiding class. The tragedy of the Terran fleet.

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Creditor tho not great defensive purposes themselves,they can be useful to try and get yourself some de ships during the round.
The only reason I would build Creditor is to round out a stolen Fi fleet, with the Judge as strong as it is. Building a steal ship purely for the purpose of attempting to cap some other ship is not a strong strategy, unless you're a farmer. Faking Fi as Cr might be pretty strong, though, and in that circumstance, capping some De won't totally ruin your fleet the way it would a 'normal' Fi fleet.
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 13:52   #260
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Etd cr still getting firrd before all races exept etd,
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 14:52   #261
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Etd cr still getting firrd before all races exept etd,
Yeah etd cr is the worst solo fleet atm. And I cant think of a easy fix to it right now. Mantis -> emp is probably too big a hit towards cat.
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 14:55   #262
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
Etd cr still getting firrd before all races exept etd,
yet their CR attack partner, Cath CR has awesome init. Together its one of the only attacking combo's that doesnt have an efficient ship to counter it.
So while your statement is totally correct, I wouldnt think it means anything needs to change.
The ETD Cr still adds a lot in CR teamups with its killing/stealing power.
Only if you want to attack solo the whole round, don't do it with ETD CR.
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 16:00   #263
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Well I kinda have the feeling that a etd cat teamup would rather get fr than cr for main attack fleet anyway..
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 16:34   #264
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

The problem for Etd is that the only anti-fr they have is their cruisers. With 3 races having Fr pods, the lack of alternative anti-fr means Etd will have to invest in some Cr. A similar problem exists for Fi/Bs. In the early game period, when people are still solo attacking, Etd will have to invest in 3 ships which are not useful for them to attack with and cannot be used for ally def.
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 17:16   #265
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

U cant make a fleet shit just bcoz other race and other player can help u.
Imho.
Hard to fix it idd.

And we should remeber that soloing is used a lot in pa. The first ticks are all about solo landing and 3 fleeting. Very important move for the rest of the round.
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 17:37   #266
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Ideally, fleets that are shit solo and amazing in teamups would be changed to being decent solo and good in teamups instead.
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Unread 5 Oct 2014, 18:55   #267
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
U cant make a fleet shit just bcoz other race and other player can help u.
Imho.
Hard to fix it idd.

And we should remeber that soloing is used a lot in pa. The first ticks are all about solo landing and 3 fleeting. Very important move for the rest of the round.
First ticks are all about solo landing and 3 fleeting because everyone builds only their roiding fleet and nothing else.

ETD CR can land during this time on:
Terran DE
Cath CO + Cath CR
Xan Fi , Xan DE
Zik BS
ETD FR and ETD CR.

Sure later on when everyone builds more defensive ships, it might be more difficult, mostly because the anti FR is steal, which sucks init wise and will always have troubles landing solo ( unless we make armor eff higher than dmg eff, so init is less important, but thats another discussion ) . I would increase the investors armor a bit, not sure why its this low.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 01:20   #268
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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First ticks are all about solo landing and 3 fleeting because everyone builds only their roiding fleet and nothing else.

ETD CR can land during this time on:
Terran DE
Cath CO + Cath CR
Xan Fi , Xan DE
Zik BS
ETD FR and ETD CR.

Sure later on when everyone builds more defensive ships, it might be more difficult, mostly because the anti FR is steal, which sucks init wise and will always have troubles landing solo ( unless we make armor eff higher than dmg eff, so init is less important, but thats another discussion ) . I would increase the investors armor a bit, not sure why its this low.
The issue for Etd will come in the period between three fleeting and most attacks becoming team efforts. Based on last round, the three fleeting period will be much shorter than the one other two.

If Etd are going to be comparatively weaker during this phase (unable to attack effectively with Cr, but having to build them to target Fr), then they will generally enter the later phase quite far behind. If they were to get a big jump in effectiveness at this point, it might be OK, but I don't see this happening currently. It is quite likely that there will be a lot of Fr in the universe at this point, and i'm not sure that Etd/Cat will be any/much better attacking wise than 2 * Cat.

Somebody above mentioned a change to the Investor - make it kill and init 6. I think this could help.

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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 01:46   #269
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Anyone here believe we could make one set of stats over a few rounds that are balanced enough you could go any class. Then run them for a few more rounds. Politics would change. If all 6 are balanced... games like starcraft,warcraft etc are basically just stats but, were played for years once fully balanced...
They would have to be a big set. It would be something a bunch of people would have to work together on.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 06:52   #270
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

init 6 investor would stop all FR incs. making CR the only attack fleet with no easy counter.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 08:10   #271
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Anyone here believe we could make one set of stats over a few rounds that are balanced enough you could go any class.
Have there been any that have been close to being so balanced in the past? Starting with a set that is already nearly balanced would be much easier than creating a new set. Particularly as we would not really know if the new set is close to balanced until they have been played in a round.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 09:15   #272
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
Anyone here believe we could make one set of stats over a few rounds that are balanced enough you could go any class. Then run them for a few more rounds. Politics would change. If all 6 are balanced... games like starcraft,warcraft etc are basically just stats but, were played for years once fully balanced...
They would have to be a big set. It would be something a bunch of people would have to work together on.
I think a solid attempt could be made to make a decent set and then refine them after every round. After all, games like Starcraft go through so many beta test hours that a single beta PA round (or even a single full round) might not be enough to truly be able to balance the stats. Not even talking about the half-assed beta testing we normally do :P

There was some talk about using last rounds stats for such a purpose, but there's also a few rounds stats that keep coming up (I think 34? from the top of my head) as examples of a good set.

Unless you're talking about migrating to a set with 3 or more pod classes per race for the sake of... more options with the same race in a new round?
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 09:55   #273
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

I think the new stat sets is something that keeps the game fresh tho and is very much needed unless we get more development in other parts of pa to keep the crowd entertained. A middle ground would be to have used sets(not necessarily the same) every other round with small modifications and new sets in between to keep it fresh.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 13:25   #274
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

The problem with comparing PA to games like wc3/sc2 is that PA takes place in a persistent, multiplayer universe. A game of starcraft will generally have 2 players, both starting from scratch. This makes it much easier for the designers to make assumptions about the scenarios in which each unit will be used. Doing something similar with PA might be possible, but it would take a lot of work to find a set of valid assumptions and build a decent model.

One thing that could potentially help, would be to have the beta played by bot planets and include a lot more information in the PA dumps. This would allow ppl to upload a set of stats, let the bots fight it out for a day or two and then do some statistics on the resulting universe.

In terms of fixed/changing stats each round, I think the best thing would be to have something in the middle of fixed stats & the current system. It would be nice to have a set of stats that get used 2-3 times, with a few minor modifications between the rounds, and then change things up with a whole new set. Some people here have been complaining that all the stats seem to do is shuffle the old set, which is a valid criticism I think. If stats were done this way, you could look to introduce something a little bit more different with the new set.

Both of these ideas really require input from multiple dedicated people to work though. The stats committee idea has been mentioned a few times in this thread, but I still dont see any action to put such a thing in place.

In terms of the current set, how about changing the investor to be init 8 kill instead of init 6?
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 14:17   #275
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Will make zik pretty bad, and the investor have already gotten a acdc boost so is now second highest in ac + dc just behind the cutlass and it steals into a podclass so it's not all awful.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 16:32   #276
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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I agree. Monroe used to keep people on a pretty tight leash on SD, but he's pretty much disappeared, and since then, the posting culture on AD has jumped the border this place.
Guilty as charged, but I'm not actually gone. If people report abusive posts I will remove them, and will try and check in on this thread (This forum had been pretty idle for a long time).

I strongly encourage folks to be respectful on this forum. You are welcome to disagree with others as much as you'd like, but please do so in a respectful manner or I will start deleting posts again.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 16:45   #277
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

The Investor seems to be almost as perfect as a stealship can ever be, ( without free stealing) It steals FR which you actually want and you can team up with EMP + you're the only race that can.
Besides that it has 100%+ efficiency vs all ships it hits, meaning you could even gain value stealing.
Moving it from steal to kill, just so it shoots before Zik FR doesn't really make ETD CR better, just makes it less interesting.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 22:45   #278
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

pretty please

Can we add a few secondary targets to some ships? All this Single Targetting just creates too many holes in fleets..

If can add 2 or 3 t2 ships to each race, which compliment their primary defensive holes will make the round a bit more interesting..!
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 22:48   #279
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

I miss these stat sets:

http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki..._24:Ship_Stats

http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki..._29:Ship_Stats
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Round 29 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 23:30   #280
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

R24 had 60% of the top20 xan, 70% top10 xan, 100% top10 xan.
I doubt that will be very popular.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 23:34   #281
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Myself would like to see a remake of r51, those were pretty well spread stratwise over the diffrent allies.
The goverment changes perhaps would make CO weaker.
The stats i put forward was a mix up of r51
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 00:03   #282
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

yeh true that about round 24

But those kinda stats - loved the multiple targetting...

!!
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Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 29 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
Round 66 - Rank 9 - Ultores (Etd)
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 00:50   #283
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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R24 had 60% of the top20 xan, 70% top10 xan, 100% top10 xan.
I doubt that will be very popular.
I assume you mean the top 5 had 100% Xan, though your point still stands that Xan was much too strong that round

PS. Caj, this is usually a better source, and easier to read for me, though your eyes may have gotten used to the wiki style page.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 01:24   #284
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Stats are final and have been turned over to Appocomaster. The only change that was made was investor A/c D/c got buffed a bit. You may now start flaming because i wont read this thread anymore.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 01:56   #285
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

I like the stats, cant see a big problem. Good work.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 02:38   #286
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

ok but can we please have MT next round? thx
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 04:42   #287
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

CaJ we have had MT stats for the past 8 rounds. You can live through one round of ST ships. Same with Wishmaster.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 05:18   #288
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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CaJ we have had MT stats for the past 8 rounds. You can live through one round of ST ships. Same with Wishmaster.
Besides r51 i would call all those sets more ST than MT. Clearly a mix, with the majority of ships as ST!
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 09:08   #289
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Stats are final and have been turned over to Appocomaster. The only change that was made was investor A/c D/c got buffed a bit. You may now start flaming because i wont read this thread anymore.
Good job.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 10:06   #290
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Now to harass Appocomaster!

And yes I can live with a round of shit stats. Just bad luck that I had planned to play this round.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 12:08   #291
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Nice stats, love stats with massive holes in them as it means no-one is invincible without help. Can see why the 'top players' don't like them though as they have to actually deal with incomings.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 12:25   #292
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Nice stats, love stats with massive holes in them as it means no-one is invincible without help. Can see why the 'top players' don't like them though as they have to actually deal with incomings.
Lets see if the gap between the top 3 aliance and the rest of the univers in average score changes then.
Interesting theory that you think "top players" dont like them
One would think that with more holes in the stats, more political deals will be made to deal with the holes.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 12:44   #293
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

Funny how you even think top players care about stats. A top player can play any set at a much better level than others.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:14   #294
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

have to agree with theodd, stats make difference for alliances, not players.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 15:17   #295
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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But those kinda stats - loved the multiple targetting...
The community has changed a lot since you last played. I brought back the r31 stats a few rounds ago, and it was utter shit. People just inited to 1500+ roids while sitting on their asses doing nothing, up to their eyeballs in NAPs. Full MT stats just no longer work the way they used to, a mix of single and dual target ships is as defensive as stats should be these days. We don't need full ST either, but it's been a long time, and it makes a nice change.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 15:33   #296
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

the thing i dislike the most about this set, and last round set is the limitted class interaction. Are we seriously at the point, where we need to stop freesteal/freekill through stats? (And yet this happends) Just MH/PA Team that can't see past the obvious, and rather make stands elsewhere.

I wouldn't mind a ST set where there was more diversity, more viable strategies, and more viable counters. With this beta set, and last rounds limitted class interaction makes this more of a numbers game than anything. Which clearly was prooven last round!
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 16:30   #297
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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The community has changed a lot since you last played. I brought back the r31 stats a few rounds ago, and it was utter shit. People just inited to 1500+ roids while sitting on their asses doing nothing, up to their eyeballs in NAPs. Full MT stats just no longer work the way they used to, a mix of single and dual target ships is as defensive as stats should be these days. We don't need full ST either, but it's been a long time, and it makes a nice change.
With MT stats, can't you just boost armour / decrease damage to make it easier to land?
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 16:34   #298
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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With MT stats, can't you just boost armour / decrease damage to make it easier to land?
that sounds very contradictive. boosting armor and debuffing damage will have quite an opposite effect.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 16:49   #299
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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With MT stats, can't you just boost armour / decrease damage to make it easier to land?
Yepp, also makes init less important.
It's what i tried to do with the shipstats set i made. It's a way to make MT work without making it too defensive.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 16:52   #300
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Re: Stats - Round 59 and beyond

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Yepp, also makes init less important.
It's what i tried to do with the shipstats set i made. It's a way to make MT work without making it too defensive.

lack of logic?!?

Edit: Feel free to explain how you figured this.

Last edited by TheoDD; 7 Oct 2014 at 17:04.
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