Official G-II Announcement.

[Hesekiel]

Most of us are aware of a specific website and the list of specific coordinates it included.
We cant believe the hype this has caused.
firstly, there prob havent been a round when someones' coords lists were either stolen by hacking into their DB, or in another way.

During the past few hours we have a numerous times been called names and people have been threatening the alliance saying the rest of the universe will declare war on our 14-people-alliance as we're now.

Anyway, there are some things we need to correct:

1) no g-ii member ever hacked to anyone's db, be it ND's or APA's or anyone else's. someone just had a kid moving away and they forgot to take the back door key away. its as simple as that. we've seen worse.
2) as stated above, we cant see why the PA Team or anyone else could have a reason to delete anyones account.
3)the person who did this has as far as i know explain the whole deal, and we cant find a reason why we should kick him out of the alliance just because a bunch of people ( a couple of tens) tell us thats what we should do and that we have broken some rules. we havent.



It is a war game, and war aint ethical. Harrism stays. point made.



Hesekiel / Vader
the G-II

[Linoge]

make war not love eh

pld Heskey

[Zo0f]

Just ignore the drama queens.

[wakey]

Its one thing to obtain the intel, its another to publish it for all to see. Thats a cowardly and dispicable act especially seeing as there seems to be no reason for doing so. If he had a grudge agaisnt APA or NewDawn then then it might be understandable BUT the fact that he left in the co-ords for every other alliance that these alliances had intel on clearly shows there was no justification for it.

By supporting his actions like this your dragging G-II name through the mud and are actually failing your members by bringing them unnesccary conflict that you cant really win

[Hesekiel]

Originally Posted by wakey

Its one thing to obtain the intel, its another to publish it for all to see. Thats a cowardly and dispicable act especially seeing as there seems to be no reason for doing so. If he had a grudge agaisnt APA or NewDawn then then it might be understandable BUT the fact that he left in the co-ords for every other alliance that these alliances had intel on clearly shows there was no justification for it.

By supporting his actions like this your dragging G-II name through the mud and are actually failing your members by bringing them unnesccary conflict that you cant really win

G-II never published any coords in public.

[Harrism]

im not sure making a new topic was a wise idea, I dont really want to have to give an account of my actions again. Lets just leave it with you want me to stay in g2, I'll stay and do as you command, Ive already applogised to you personally about all this.

zo0f: Ive had enough.

[Harrism]

wakey: I never published it publicly, someone else did that; someone I wrongly trusted with the info, im trying to get to the bottom of this right now. Everyone's protecting everyone else, I wont find the source, I believe I know where it came from but I dont want to distrust those people. Im just sorry I let it out to them.

[TheRat]

God have mercy on your planet ^^

[Treveler]

Can someone pin-point a picture of that drama-lama?

[TheRat]

http://thedarktower.net/forums/uploa...1098757852.jpg !

[Treveler]

Thanks.

[Jonas]

So, you had a good time in ND last 3-4 rounds Harrism?

[yada-yada]

Originally Posted by TheRat

God have mercy on your planet ^^

Really good one^^ true too

[I am Idler]

Originally Posted by Harrism

wakey: I never published it publicly, someone else did that; someone I wrongly trusted with the info, im trying to get to the bottom of this right now. Everyone's protecting everyone else, I wont find the source, I believe I know where it came from but I dont want to distrust those people. Im just sorry I let it out to them.

I am so glad you are on the case. Im sure everyone will be thrilled at this point, Matlock

[Doorsdown]

Originally Posted by TheRat

God have mercy on your planet ^^

they'll need all the help they can get

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by Doorsdown

they'll need all the help they can get

True Story.

[Harrism]

So, you had a good time in ND last 3-4 rounds Harrism?

Yeah I did, til Riddim, beste and ma (argh, cant remember his nick, im sorry) It was a wonderful alliance. Im sorry the day they stepped down. That was a sad day, but we live on.

I bow, I will expect your fleets in the next few hours. :-)

Thankyou, I didnt expect this to go unpunished.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Hesekiel

G-II never published any coords in public.

One of your members just effectivly did so.
If I were you, I would be a bit afraid that ND and APA would as*rap* you til there is no more lubricant in the universe.

Making intel public is a way of pointing nose at people. Freelance individuals might do it without much cost, people whom are in alliances... well, someone might pay for it.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by wakey

Its one thing to obtain the intel, its another to publish it for all to see. Thats a cowardly and dispicable act especially seeing as there seems to be no reason for doing so. If he had a grudge agaisnt APA or NewDawn then then it might be understandable BUT the fact that he left in the co-ords for every other alliance that these alliances had intel on clearly shows there was no justification for it.

By supporting his actions like this your dragging G-II name through the mud and are actually failing your members by bringing them unnesccary conflict that you cant really win

there is nothing cowardish and dispicable about publishing a coord list. Those list are often used for negotiations between alliances and alot of alliances trade intel with eachother.
So it would be naïve to think those actions are ok but publishing a list isn't...

Only fault they made is that the intel is public property now rather then a bargain tool for them to retrieve other intel when they decide to trade with another alliance.

[Supersander]

I find it rather funny to see this happening to APA as they did the same with coven-coord list last round. Only difference I see is that APA obviously did it intentionally while Harrism never intended on giving it to the mass.

*points and laughs at APA*

Ah well.. it's still sad there's some much commotion about this.

[Gerbie]

If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?

[Supersander]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?

So sad..

[Hesekiel]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?

he did have the permission.

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by Harrism

wakey: I never published it publicly, someone else did that; someone I wrongly trusted with the info, im trying to get to the bottom of this right now. Everyone's protecting everyone else, I wont find the source, I believe I know where it came from but I dont want to distrust those people. Im just sorry I let it out to them.

How does it feel to be betrayed?

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by Doorsdown

they'll need all the help they can get

doubt they'll get much :P

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

there is nothing cowardish and dispicable about publishing a coord list. Those list are often used for negotiations between alliances and alot of alliances trade intel with eachother.
So it would be naïve to think those actions are ok but publishing a list isn't...

Only fault they made is that the intel is public property now rather then a bargain tool for them to retrieve other intel when they decide to trade with another alliance.

Gaining and using peoples membership lists isnt cowardly and dispicable but thats not what they did. What they did was obtain a list and because of a grudge against a couple of people publish it publically for everyone to see which has resulted in them damaging a number of innconcent peoples rounds. Its this that makes it cowardly and dispicable and extreamly underhand.

Spys and alliance HC's have a responsability to use the intel in a responsable manner not hand it out to any tom dick or harry to publish where they like. G-II as a whole (and those who are suporting this action) have broken this 'code of honour' that should exists and potentially damaged the round significantly for a a bunch of innconcent because of their jumped up ego thinking that the 9th and 12th placed alliances would be bothered about their insignifcant 13 member alliance

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?

There are potentially multiple breaches of the EULA based on what i know of the incident (which isnt much).

Such as:

Originally Posted by EULA

Secton 18.4. Abuse
(a) Abuse is considered as anything offensive to another player or to an admin.
(e) Depending on the circumstance, abuse will result in a warning or in Account closure.

Thus, if the action was deemed to be abuse, or abusive, by either another player or an admin, that would be grounds for either a warning and/or account closure. Granted, the EULA tends to refer to verbal messages and thus the consideration 'The definitions of abuse are, but are not limited to: ' could be interpreted ejusdem generis to mean verbal et al abuse and not the abuse of a loophole in a security system, however a literal interpretation could include that.

Or;

Originally Posted by EULA

Section 18.5
(c) You are also not allowed to have scripts in in-game system which will gain you an advantage in the game, or disrupt any computer systems other than your own.

This section could apply in this case, however the method that aquired the APA/ND co-ords was not necessarily a 'script' , nor was it necessarily 'in-game', and it could be argued that the system wasnt disrupted though it was compromised.

The best argument would be the following;

Originally Posted by EULA

Section 18.6 Miscellaneous Cheating
(c) As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so.

So, if the admins decide the hacking into third party (read: Alliance) databases/arbiters/websites et al was undesireable, then this last secion would apply. It is a very powerful legal sentence.

Thus, there are a few avenues for the admins to punish those involved - should they wish to - depending on the interpretation of the sections above.

[lokken]

Sadly all this legal argument is pointless here - the damage has been done and one planet deleted will not make the slightest bit of difference

ND and APA have to live with it. Simple as. And as a member of ND, I will live with it.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Hesekiel

he did have the permission.

heskey, get a grip. He did not have the permission to acc our database, he had no permission to put up a webpage to stream the database, and he had no permission to break into adminpasswords.

to put it simple: He had not the permission at all.

Next time heskey, i recommend you try using something else than gasoline to put out a fire.

[arbondigo]

Originally Posted by Kargool

heskey, get a grip. He did not have the permission to acc our database, he had no permission to put up a webpage to stream the database, and he had no permission to break into adminpasswords.

to put it simple: He had not the permission at all.

Next time heskey, i recommend you try using something else than gasoline to put out a fire.

Remember ruining some of f-crew's attacks and no doubt having access to their co-ords too? What goes around comes around i believe is the saying...

He hasn't broken any rules within the game, and as a former APA HC said that spying was merely stretching the morals by which we live by, i don't see a problem with how he got the co-ords. What he did with the co-ords i don't agree with, but at the end of the day what he did with the co-ords was his call. What's done is done, you can't change it so everyone should just get on as normal and stop moaning about it.

[Supersander]

Originally Posted by EULA
Secton 18.4. Abuse
(a) Abuse is considered as anything offensive to another player or to an admin.
(e) Depending on the circumstance, abuse will result in a warning or in Account closure.

What's the standard for something being offensive? If I get 18 ticks of incs straight from one alliance (hi kargool) I find that very offensive. Does this mean those planets get closed? Ofc not.. something being offensive is judged by the person who something is done too and has therefore no real value.

Originally Posted by EULA
Section 18.5
(c) You are also not allowed to have scripts in in-game system which will gain you an advantage in the game, or disrupt any computer systems other than your own.

He did not use anything in-game or in in-game systems, he did not disrupt any computer-systems and he did not personally gain anything by it.

Originally Posted by EULA
Section 18.6 Miscellaneous Cheating
(c) As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so.

It is no form of cheating, merely intelligence. Also it is not linked in any way to his account. That this person happens to have his own pa-account is of no interest here.

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by Supersander

What's the standard for something being offensive? If I get 18 ticks of incs straight from one alliance (hi kargool) I find that very offensive. Does this mean those planets get closed? Ofc not.. something being offensive is judged by the person who something is done too and has therefore no real value.

Oh my god, are you for real? Offensive does not mean trash your planet through accepted ways of gameplay. It means using abusive ways to try and destroy your round, such as hacking, dosing, knocking you in the back of the head with a baseball bat, etc.

[Supersander]

Spying has been an accepted way of gameplay fro some time now too.
No planets got crashed by what was done and i very much doubt any will.

Sure i took it over the top; im just trying to make a point that being offended is in the eye of the beholder.

[Kaisto]

I am sure that ND, as well as [APA] will survive this incident intact. I do however believe that the community as a whole should learn from this incident, and that the admins should revise and perhaps expand the EULA so it better protects the people who are trying to have fun playing this game, from similar incidents in the future.
Not that the admins should be alone in this, it appears to me that the alliances withing this game should roll up their sleeves and start actively promoting a more civilised way of playing, as it is well within their collective influence and power to do so.

[Supersander]

Originally Posted by Kaisto

I am sure that ND, as well as [APA] will survive this incident intact. I do however believe that the community as a whole should learn from this incident, and that the admins should revise and perhaps expand the EULA so it better protects the people who are trying to have fun playing this game, from similar incidents in the future.
Not that the admins should be alone in this, it appears to me that the alliances withing this game should roll up their sleeves and start actively promoting a more civilised way of playing, as it is well within their collective influence and power to do so.

Sorry for bringing it up again, but I didnt hear any APA complaining about that last round when you were going around posting Coven coords-list everywhere you could...

It's part of the game, find a bridge and get over it. Dont go crying now it happened to you.

[Hesekiel]

this is funny. ive made about half my overall posts in the past two days.

[Kaisto]

Originally Posted by Supersander

It's part of the game, find a bridge and get over it. Dont go crying now it happened to you.

We have gotten over it, and we are not crying. But I will not just say "oh well, this is a part of the game". If you just look at the consequences of what happened, you will see that ca 10% of the player population was compromised and negatively affected. Nothing we say can undo what has been done, but it might just prevent it from happening again to someone else! This is not something that should just be accepted with a shrug. This is something the whole community should be looking at. and agreeing that the extent to which spying has become a part of the game, is too great.

[notsure]

Originally Posted by Supersander

Sorry for bringing it up again, but I didnt hear any APA complaining about that last round when you were going around posting Coven coords-list everywhere you could...

I must have missed that.....as I don't recall anyone posting Coven's co-ords in fact I don't recall APA having all that many Coven co-ords until after the declaration of the non-eventual war....

As for the latest incident - tbh my main problem is the release of the co-ords - and that includes the release of the intel gained by both APA & ND - since (at least in the case of APA) not even our own members had access to the co-ords list we had compiled, as we considered it to be sensitive information. I'd also like to point out that although by that stage it was too late to stop any damage being done, as soon as I was made aware of the comprimise of our db security, I removed all co-ords from the db, not just those of APA members.

As for harrism "having permission", at no point did I, or any other APA member give him permission to access the APA account, nor did the System Administrator of the server on which the account is hosted. In fact, the very timing of the act, to coincide with the Admininistrator being on holidays for a week, would indicate otherwise....

[Guran]

Gonna announce the G-II -> Hydra officially too?

[Hesekiel]

Originally Posted by Guran

Gonna announce the G-II -> Hydra officially too?

nice intel there.

[JC]

Its quite amusing that everyone is making a big deal out of what was essenatial a spying incident when practically every alliance ever has used spies. Its not the first nor the last time an alliance will give access to someone that is willing to pass on those coords.

[Neferti]

Not everyone is making a big deal. I was for keeping it quiet

[wakey]

Originally Posted by JC

Its quite amusing that everyone is making a big deal out of what was essenatial a spying incident when practically every alliance ever has used spies. Its not the first nor the last time an alliance will give access to someone that is willing to pass on those coords.

As has been explained a number of times its not the spying thats really the issue here, the issue is his iresponsable use of the information afterwards (doesnt matter if he meant for them to leak or not, it was his intel so the buck stops at him) which has resulted in what 100-150 people many of whom WERENT from either alliance that he had a grudge against being screwed over. Hes relased intel to every person in this game which 75% wouldnt have ever got. And we havent even got onto all those secondary people whom get affected by this, all the alliance mates, galaxy mates, and friends.

Hes getting the critism for being naive, petty and irresponsable. He he hadnt trusted people he hardly knew and if he hadnt been so petty to let a problem with a couple of people make him take it out not only these peoples alliance, but also another alliance and every single person not connected with these two that was in their intel db then he might have realised what he was doing and what power he had with it and would have used it in a more responsable and smarter manner and people wouldnt have been half as bothered.

As you said the actual spying is something that goes on all the time and no-one can complain about that and iAPA and ND are responsable for failing from a security pov and they do share some of the blame for causing these problems for everyone in their arbiter but that will never excuse Harrism actions after this

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by wakey

As has been explained a number of times its not the spying thats really the issue here, the issue is his iresponsable use of the information afterwards (doesnt matter if he meant for them to leak or not, it was his intel so the buck stops at him) which has resulted in what 100-150 people many of whom WERENT from either alliance that he had a grudge against being screwed over. Hes relased intel to every person in this game which 75% wouldnt have ever got. And we havent even got onto all those secondary people whom get affected by this, all the alliance mates, galaxy mates, and friends.

Hes getting the critism for being naive, petty and irresponsable. He he hadnt trusted people he hardly knew and if he hadnt been so petty to let a problem with a couple of people make him take it out not only these peoples alliance, but also another alliance and every single person not connected with these two that was in their intel db then he might have realised what he was doing and what power he had with it and would have used it in a more responsable and smarter manner and people wouldnt have been half as bothered.

As you said the actual spying is something that goes on all the time and no-one can complain about that and iAPA and ND are responsable for failing from a security pov and they do share some of the blame for causing these problems for everyone in their arbiter but that will never excuse Harrism actions after this

What is wrong with spreading intel, aside from the fact that it is STUPID to share intel and not gain anything in return? It's their own stupidty that they don't do anything with their intel, but what is so immoral or "not done" about spreading their intel, even to every single person in PA?

I got most 1up coords and they got most of ours (no doubt) ... but what would stop either of us from spreading it?

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

What is wrong with spreading intel, aside from the fact that it is STUPID to share intel and not gain anything in return? It's their own stupidty that they don't do anything with their intel, but what is so immoral or "not done" about spreading their intel, even to every single person in PA?

I got most 1up coords and they got most of ours (no doubt) ... but what would stop either of us from spreading it?

The problem is there was no tactical advantage to doing so. He had a problem with NewDawn but he didnt have a problem with APA. He also didnt have a problem with any of the other alliances that APA and ND had intel on. So what hes ended up doing either intentionally or by being naive in trusting people he hardly knew is to release extreamly early on intel on a good number of alliances which he had no problem with and which he didnt need to. The outcome here isnt that hes got one over the people in ND he didnt like, but hes ended up causing alot of innocents damage which is where the problem is.

[notsure]

The repercussions both in PA and in the "real" world are what makes this so called "harmless" incident different from the normal run of the mill spying.

In PA we have maybe 10% of the player base co-ords exposed to the greater PA community - many of whom will have paid good money to play....

On top of which, the incident is also going to cost some people finanically in the real world....

so much for harmless....

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

What is wrong with spreading intel, aside from the fact that it is STUPID to share intel and not gain anything in return?

I think for Harry's aims, this made more sense, even if it was unintentional: it's actually more effective than using it as a bargaining chip!

Harry had issues with members of ND (Well, all of his issues appeared to be with members of DLR, not ND itself), and simply wanted to damage them.

If he had come to you and offered you ND's coordlist on the sly, would you have committed the firepower he'd want in order to ruin ND's round? We're simply not worth it to any of the alliances that would be skilled enough to obliterate us (except, perhaps Reunion, should they decide they want to get us out of the way) because we're too small, and we're not allied or NAPd to any alliance - so you wouldn't even be removing support for an enemy.

Releasing our coords allows every alliance or solo attacker that doesn't like us to pick a few ND and hit them hard, leading to extremely large levels of incoming that an alliance like ND can't handle (particularly after the pre-round incidents and the fact we're still rebuilding), and thus achieving G-II's aim.

Uh yea, point was, don't think it really was that stupid on Harry's part, I just feel he made an error of judgement in his scattershot approach; summarised by wakey.

[I am Idler]

Originally Posted by Supersander

something being offensive is judged by the person who something is done too and has therefore no real value.


.

Im pretty sure people find their coords all over the internet pretty offensive if they tried to keep it hidden.

BUT NOT in your fairytale world of Duckville mysteries