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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:23   #51
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^ View Post
you arent sold a product, you're sold a licence to a service which can be withdrawn at any time
Indeed and it falls under the sale of goods act under services (as defined in English Law) as a provision of service to which you are entitled to use as per the user agreement.

You cannot simply change the user agreement without the prior consent of the user, that would make any agreement nul and void, therefore you (Planetarion/Jagex) would be in breach of contract.

Of this I am 100% certain, if you do not believe me I suggest you consult a solicitor who is aufait with the relevant consumer laws.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:24   #52
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
at no time did i deny that i broke the rules, at no time did i deny that the rules (as published) existed.

You are missing the entire point of the argument, the point is Ace Changed the rules and the Manual to suit the circumstance of his applied sanction, a sanction that should not be applied as it is not within the rules.
Ok, so you broke the rules, were punished appropriately - and the punishment was then explicitly listed for everyone else via the mechanism for clarifying the eula instead of leaving it as mh discretion. I see no problems there

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
The rules and regulations page clearly stated that the sanction for "mail abuse" was warning and subsequent closure on re-offence.
Again, no. They include those punishments but all punishments are ultimately at mh discretion. Lets run through that section


Quote:
We reserve the right to determine how much evidence is required before action is taken
That clause lets them decide if an account should be punished or not, regardless of what for and what evidence is needed. how much evidence can be zero, if wanted.

Quote:
Any such actions will result in a warning or closure (1) of your Account depending on the case.
and from the abuse section
Quote:
Depending on the circumstance, abuse will result in a warning or in Account closure.
Did you consider that being prevented from using the messaging system was a warning? Given that the other option is to close you - which they can still do if they want...

Quote:
If your Account is closed you will be sent an automated message briefly stating the reason for the closure. If you wish to appeal against the closure contact the multihunter team in #multihunters. Upon completion of this appeal the decision to close the Account will be reviewed and one of a number of actions may result including but not limited to re-opening, deletion or other various punitive measures (2).
Quote:
(2) Various punitive measures imply that the punishment is completely at the discretion of the Admins, it can vary from small score/ship/asteroid losses to full account closures depending on the situation
So, assuming they did close you - and you appealed, they can still apply this punishment to you through subsection 2.
Either way, any punishment can be ultimately applied and this whole whine is for nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
It is custom and practice within the MH team to send a warning and for that to be dealt with, then if a person offends AFTER the warning, he (or she) may be closed. There is never a case of simply closing someone for an offence he has not been prior warned of, so to jump straight to closure would again not be in keeping with the published rules or custom and practice.
Yes, there have been cases where accounts have been closed straight off with no warning. Killmarks bot accounts as one notable example had spinner swearing and database deleting them - no warnings were issued there.
Custom is a guideline, not a rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
This would of course be different if it was a serious case like someone hacking the servers or exploiting the game in some way to obtain an advantage, which would then of course warrant immediate closure to protect the game.

A whole other ball game....
Both cases break the rules, both cases result in punishment. The scale doesnt matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
Is that to simple for you or do you want me to put it in words of one syllable?
Trolling.

Again. I reiterate what i said earlier - I would have closed you, and I would have been right to do so.
You knew better, i have no sympathy for you as a result
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:25   #53
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Your point being? They dont have to inform you before hand. He made a decision on how to punish you, he did it, then told you. If i was going to arrest you im not going to ring you first and tell you before turning up at your front door.

As the sanction was not one within the published rules of the game when I signed up, then yes he does have to inform me, and everyone else that there has been a change in the Terms and Conditions.

Don't you get it, this affects everyone, not just me?
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:27   #54
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
Paisley, the change was made to the manual, not any of the three things you agree to when you sign up.
Looks like my point was already made 30 posts ago. And it was disregarded then, too. Funny how that goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
You are not obliged to stick your nose in where it is not wanted.
My apologies. To avoid future mishaps like this, maybe you could update the first post and include a list of people you feel should be allowed to reply to it. I'm sure that the PD mods will be glad to enforce it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
As the sanction was not one within the published rules of the game when I signed up, then yes he does have to inform me, and everyone else that there has been a change in the Terms and Conditions.
There was no change in the ToC.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:28   #55
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
Nice one appoco

what I knew or did not know, is pretty much irrelevant, the fact remains that players including me signed up under a published set of rules, that constituted a contract of sale of a product.

My offence should have been dealt with under the PUBLISHED rules as per the manual, not as per whatever may have been known or not known (by me or anyone else).

Your position is untenable both in terms of fairness to the players and in breach of the sale of goods act.

As Jagex are in the UK they have to comply with the sale of goods act, and I will be pursuing this at my earliest convenience, I have already put together the logs from IRC and from this forum along with all the published rules and T&C's and will be forwarding them to the Consumer Watchdog for there consideration.

As for your comment about the Beta Manual not being relevant pretty much says it all, as it was an exact duplicate of the game manual until altered by Ace to reflect his changes, and is therefore evidence of him doing so, and of the rules prior to his changes.

These are not empty threats, the whole case was a joke from start to finish, it became serious when Ace decided to change the rules on the fly.

Anything else is irrelevant
All your discussions surround "http://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=rules" which isn't part of the signup agreement and merely explains the rules when signed up. I don't think we therefore have any obligation to tell you when we update it; as the top of the page says, it's more of a practical / working set of the rules set out in the terms and conditions.

Also, as I said, the beta server is IN NO WAY REFLECTIVE of the manual of the game server. In case you missed it in my last post.
The manual is based on the round 30-something manual - it has never been updated; the game manual has never been loaded into it and. I'm not sure I can make it any clearer; your assumptions are completely incorrect.

What you're saying is "despite the fact I said I knew x to be true and you held me to it, I've found out a loophole and am now vigorously backtracking".
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:29   #56
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
As the sanction was not one within the published rules of the game when I signed up, then yes he does have to inform me, and everyone else that there has been a change in the Terms and Conditions.

Don't you get it, this affects everyone, not just me?
There hasn't been a change in the rules & conditions.
Stop being wrong.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:32   #57
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
As the sanction was not one within the published rules of the game when I signed up, then yes he does have to inform me, and everyone else that there has been a change in the Terms and Conditions.

Don't you get it, this affects everyone, not just me?
And what you seem to fail to grasp is no he doesnt. States they can add to the rules when ever they see fit. Also states they can punish how they see fit its under their discretion based on the evidence provided.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:37   #58
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^ View Post
Ok, so you broke the rules, were punished appropriately - and the punishment was then explicitly listed for everyone else via the mechanism for clarifying the eula instead of leaving it as mh discretion. I see no problems there
It was not within the published rules of the game neither in the manual or in the User Agreement, hence the rule does not apply, publishing the "rule" elsewhere does not make it relevant nor enforceable.

That would be akin to getting a speeding ticket from a Police Officer after they changed the speed limit on a section of road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^ View Post


This would of course be correct, but the rules as published stated that the offence in question should be de

and from the abuse section


Did you consider that being prevented from using the messaging system was a warning? Given that the other option is to close you - which they can still do if they want...



So, assuming they did close you - and you appealed, they can still apply this punishment to you through subsection 2.
Either way, any punishment can be ultimately applied and this whole whine is for nothing.
It is hardly a whine, when I am pointing out the errors within the game manual and the way in which people engaged in policing the game seem to change the rules at will and apply sanctions against a player where they do not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^ View Post
Yes, there have been cases where accounts have been closed straight off with no warning. Killmarks bot accounts as one notable example had spinner swearing and database deleting them - no warnings were issued there.
Custom is a guideline, not a rule.
I already said that there were cases that would warrant immediate closure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^ View Post

Trolling.

Again. I reiterate what i said earlier - I would have closed you, and I would have been right to do so.
You knew better, i have no sympathy for you as a result
as for your opinion it hardly matters your a non player and a non admin, what you say is pretty much worthless as for closing me for a 1st offence and without warning, that would certainly land you in hot water.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:40   #59
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

The PA rules are idiotic and stupid anyway, this has never been a shock to me. (the exception rule - restricting legitimate players etc, etc) If people wonder why Jagex don't put us on their portal... ha.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:40   #60
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
There hasn't been a change in the rules & conditions.
Stop being wrong.
yes there has

Ace altered the manual to reflect the changes published elsewhere.

The fact that they were published elsewhere does not make them part of the game T&C's unless there is a direct link in the manual to that document. Which there is not.

Being wrong is not an offence, being too stupid to see that your wrong (Appoco) gives cause for concern to all of us.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:41   #61
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
It was not within the published rules of the game neither in the manual or in the User Agreement, hence the rule does not apply, publishing the "rule" elsewhere does not make it relevant nor enforceable.
the manual isnt the user agreement.
the user agreement allows them to set arbitrary punishments ( see above )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
That would be akin to getting a speeding ticket from a Police Officer after they changed the speed limit on a section of road.
Argumentum ad ridiculum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
It is hardly a whine, when I am pointing out the errors within the game manual and the way in which people engaged in policing the game seem to change the rules at will and apply sanctions against a player where they do not exist.
it is a whine, seriously. How many current and ex mh heads / pateam does it take to say you are wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
I already said that there were cases that would warrant immediate closure.
and yet those cases arent listed explicitly either. You cant argue that there are cases where you dont have to list punishments before they are valid and cases that there are when it suits you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
as for your opinion it hardly matters your a non player and a non admin, what you say is pretty much worthless as for closing me for a 1st offence and without warning, that would certainly land you in hot water.
Again, no. read my last post where i explain exactly how they can do anything they want.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 12:59   #62
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Again another Punishment blown all out of perportion followed by massive flame, gotta love pa forums, if a new player was to look at these forums now im pretty sure they wouldn't take a second look at pa again, some ambassadors to this game you guys are.

If i was looking at a game and i saw this kind of tom foolery id not want to play simples.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:00   #63
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
There hasn't been a change in the rules & conditions.
Stop being wrong.
From the sign up page>>
Quote:
By signing up, you agree to the Terms & Conditions, Privacy Policy and the Planetarion Terms & Conditions
As you can see on the sign up page you are directed to the T&C's and the Planetarion Rules (although this is out of date as well)

But it also eludes to the Rules and Regulations as Published in the Manual, on Jagex's T&C's

Therefore the Manual at the time of the offence and sanction did not reflect the actions taken by Ace.

You implication that anything can be changed at the sole discretion of Jagex is not quite correct, it can be changed, BUT the user(s) have to have PRIOR notification of that change, so that they can then make an informed choice to accept it or not.

Ace acting in the way he did in changing the manual to reflect the action taken against me is wrong in his actions, and has made it impossible for this to die down.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:03   #64
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

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Originally Posted by Cervantes View Post
Again another Punishment blown all out of perportion followed by massive flame, gotta love pa forums, if a new player was to look at these forums now im pretty sure they wouldn't take a second look at pa again, some ambassadors to this game you guys are.

If i was looking at a game and i saw this kind of tom foolery id not want to play simples.
Im sure if he had bin closed instead of this new silly rule implemented we wouldnt have to be having this whole convosation.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:06   #65
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
He needs a tactical advantage?
for it to be cheating, yes refer to the oxford dictionary links.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Hes abusing somone ingame, therefore hes breaching the rules.
Im not disputing/disgreeing/annoyed with judge being naughty.
Judge sent an abusive maiil ingame but for it to be cheating judge would need to get a tactical advantage for it to be classed as cheating.
I do not wish to make this a flame/troll fest
with respect assassin I need ask that you can confirm that you understand this difference with an answer to my previous post.

Next point

http://game.planetarion.com/manual.p...rn=58145929118

on the page that was edited after judge's "hearing" from the MH team

Abusive/Inappropriate in the game Messages, Fleetname(s), Galaxy Banner, Galaxy Name, in the game Forum Posts (Galaxy and Alliance), Message from Commander
Punishment 1st offence: Warn & Reset (if applicable).
Punishment 2nd offence: Warn & Reset (if applicable).
Punishment 3rd offence: Close (Another way of punishment might be introduced during or after this round)
Fleetnames will be reset and a ban will be set on changing them for X days (ban time will be set based on the nature of the name(s) )
[Same goes for the in game mail system, If you send out abusive mail(s) a ban will be set on sending mail(s) to other users for X days (ban time will be set based on the nature of the mail(s).]

the part that is in [] was added after judges hearing and not before/during.
as I have made across in previous posts.

This is what I disagree / am annoyed with.

http://game.planetarion.com/terms.pl
Miscellaneous cheating
C.As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given in these terms and conditions and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so

if it is not cheating then it cant apply in judge's case.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:06   #66
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Im sure if he had bin closed instead of this new silly rule implemented we wouldnt have to be having this whole convosation.
He got quite a small punishment in the scheme of things so I don't understand what all the fuss as about, but I guess people have nothing better to do than whine on the forums.

Now I remember why I don't Look at the forums anymore.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:09   #67
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

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Originally Posted by Cervantes View Post
He got quite a small punishment in the scheme of things so I don't understand what all the fuss as about, but I guess people have nothing better to do than whine on the forums.

Now I remember why I don't Look at the forums anymore.
I totally agree with you, hence why me and Phil both did state hes got off lightly. Anyway ive said my peice if Judge fails to understand it then so be it.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:10   #68
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
It was not within the published rules of the game neither in the manual or in the User Agreement, hence the rule does not apply, publishing the "rule" elsewhere does not make it relevant nor enforceable.

That would be akin to getting a speeding ticket from a Police Officer after they changed the speed limit on a section of road.

Except for the fact that they didn't change a rule (abusive behaviour has been frowned upon and punishable since round 1), but they changed the punishment. The rules state that punishment is at the discretion of the MH. So like phil stated previously, your case holds no merit (or in his words, you have no leg to stand on)

Is it common for MH to warn first, punish later? It might have been when you were still part of them, but nowadays offensive planet and fleetnames are changed without a second thought.

As far as the Terms & Conditions, and the sale of goods act, go. By being abusive you broke the Terms & Conditions, ergo the contract had allready been void by yourself.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:11   #69
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
As you can see on the sign up page you are directed to the T&C's and the Planetarion Rules (although this is out of date as well)
Ive noticed something in the jagex terms as well - theyve got a nice catch all too

Quote:
If we fail to enforce any provision of these terms and conditions, that failure will not preclude us from enforcing either that provision (or any similar provision) on a later occasion.
So basically, they dont even have to abide by the rules of their own eulas in any jagex game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
Therefore the Manual at the time of the offence and sanction did not reflect the actions taken by Ace.
the manual is not the signup agreement, how many times does this need to be repeated to you before it sinks in.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
You implication that anything can be changed at the sole discretion of Jagex is not quite correct, it can be changed, BUT the user(s) have to have PRIOR notification of that change, so that they can then make an informed choice to accept it or not.
And what exactly do you think is your option should you not accept the change?
Thats right, you are required to delete your account.
Are you going to delete yourself?

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Originally Posted by Judge View Post
Ace acting in the way he did in changing the manual to reflect the action taken against me is wrong in his actions, and has made it impossible for this to die down.
History has proven otherwise.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:16   #70
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
on the page that was edited after judge's "hearing" from the MH team

Abusive/Inappropriate in the game Messages, Fleetname(s), Galaxy Banner, Galaxy Name, in the game Forum Posts (Galaxy and Alliance), Message from Commander
Punishment 1st offence: Warn & Reset (if applicable).
Punishment 2nd offence: Warn & Reset (if applicable).
Punishment 3rd offence: Close (Another way of punishment might be introduced during or after this round)
Fleetnames will be reset and a ban will be set on changing them for X days (ban time will be set based on the nature of the name(s) )
[Same goes for the in game mail system, If you send out abusive mail(s) a ban will be set on sending mail(s) to other users for X days (ban time will be set based on the nature of the mail(s).]

the part that is in [] was added after judges hearing and not before/during.
as I have made across in previous posts.

This is what I disagree / am annoyed with.
First of all, the manual is not and has never been the signup agreement. Its a guideline at best - nothing more. Referring to it to back up a point is a waste of time because it is not applicable.
Now, see the sections ive bolded in your post?
If the punishment for the first offence is not applicable - what do you think they should do?
hint - its not "nothing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
http://game.planetarion.com/terms.pl
Miscellaneous cheating
C.As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given in these terms and conditions and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so

if it is not cheating then it cant apply in judge's case.
The question you should be asking is "is it abusive" followed by " is abuse permitted "

Have you seen what he sent?
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 13:24   #71
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Re: It becomes quite amusing

Closing this thread as it doesn't appear to be breaking any new ground and it's just going to get worse. I'll leave it to Ace to make any further statements on this as necessary.
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