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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 18:31   #101
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
yeah he should follow your fellow hc's style when they're scared of 'beating people 1v1' and cheat and pretend he is stupid enough to not think it was cheating even though an inch of sense would have corrected that belief.....................
Lol because 5 people using this tactic of setting factories to 0 (only 1 (a cov opper) who wudnt LEGALLY be able to do this themselves anyway) is more likely to help us beat ND than us having our whole tag deleted would help ND beat us. OK.
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 18:33   #102
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Lets take this into a real life situation: your car breaks down, you take it to the garage, you go to pick it up again later, they claim it's fixed, you ride it again and 1 mile later you break down again with the same issue...
Would you not go back to that garage & slap the person responsible for "fixing" your car?
The better analogy would be the follwing.

You return from work one day and find your windows have been smashed and your TV set has been stolen. You get someone to fix the window, which they do. A week later your door has been blown out of its hinges, and your PC is gone. Do you go back to the company that fixed your windows and slap the guy responsible for it?

The problem with analogies is that they never preserve all the details; as such, when all parties understand the subject matter at hand, they're mostly useless, and serve only to distract people from the actual topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
Lol because 5 people using this tactic of setting factories to 0 (only 1 (a cov opper) who wudnt LEGALLY be able to do this themselves anyway) is more likely to help us beat ND than us having our whole tag deleted would help ND beat us. OK.
The only (legit!) way to set your order to 0 factories in the current game is by having them all destroyed. Further, anyone can see that the MHs wouldn't delete your entire tag for the wrongdoing of a few bad apples. That said, I doubt this was an organised plot to beat the mighty ND.
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 18:34   #103
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

he doesn't need your tag deleted, you guys harm yourselves more than anyone else could harm you anyway (like last round)
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 18:56   #104
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
I logged into other peoples tools myself since user/passwords were being passed around by a host of different allies. Big whoop. It doesn't make me a cheater.
in the game, no as theres no clause in the eula preventing it.
However.
You may not be aware of these little things such as computer misuse laws and generally one of them covers accessing things for which you are not allowed.
Morally, ethically and quite probably legally - you are in the wrong.
Please do not waste my or anyone elses time pretending that everything is *fine*
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 19:21   #105
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Further, anyone can see that the MHs wouldn't delete your entire tag for the wrongdoing of a few bad apples.
Speaking of bad apples, i heard Veil05 was the 5th person deleted, as his name suggests. Any truth to these rumours?
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 19:51   #106
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Second of all i wasnt either closed or had anything to do with the said alliance in question. This scanario is. See a difference in this?
.
Of ****ing course you wasn't closed, you'd been really shitting yourself getting closed as the MH manager? Of course you didn't have any affiliation to 1up, nor any bias towards them. It was a total coincidence that you happened to join them right after leaving your MH dept. Odd enough, during your career you had made similar choices against alliances like eXilition (and in favour of 1up), but never the other way around. Facts stand, you were the person who did a midround rules change to decline the so called eXilition support planets (before round 17), and you were the person who didn't do the midround rules change (because midround rules changes are yada bla bla and bla - in fact, in strict terms of reading the EULA back then, a rules change would have been unnecessary and all planets circulated in and out of the 1up tag should have been closed - which was never done - no matter had it not made a difference to the end result it would have at least shown that what they did was wrong - instead, well, you know) when 1up had more or less obvious support planets (judging by the fact that this was by you disapproven for the next round as enquiried by me).

You're a funny man. That's why I "joined the bandwagon".
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 20:22   #107
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

why on earth are the pair of you arguing over something that happened 10 rounds ago and has no relevance to the current drama.
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 20:25   #108
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

i dont like this but here goes nothing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobbe
Welcome to round 27, not 17 !
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 20:41   #109
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

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Originally Posted by Ceadrath
why on earth are the pair of you arguing over something that happened 10 rounds ago and has no relevance to the current drama.
Because he makes sounds when you poke him.
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 20:42   #110
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
why on earth are the pair of you arguing over something that happened 10 rounds ago and has no relevance to the current drama.
Dont look at me its himself who saw it fit to come on here attacking me for no reason. But he seems to hate me ever since that moment so i dont mind. I see it as an honour to have my own personal stalker
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 22:24   #111
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

to set the record straight (seems lots of ppl are throwing around this fact) that all the Denial HCs caught have got off with a reset of their planets - they havent. simply closed.
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 22:45   #112
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Its been a case of some closed some reset.
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Unread 23 Jun 2008, 23:52   #113
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Are you allowed to start a new planet when you get closed?
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 00:32   #114
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikard
Are you allowed to start a new planet when you get closed?
My first thought was "yes, you are", but now I'm not sure any more. Would a MH be so good as to put our minds at rest?
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 09:13   #115
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Dont look at me its himself who saw it fit to come on here attacking me for no reason. But he seems to hate me ever since that moment so i dont mind. I see it as an honour to have my own personal stalker
Essentially, I wasn't even quoting you to begin with, though.

I simply quoted Mystic in an act to refer to another case where the support team et cetera had arguably claimed that an act that was later deemed violating the EULA is okay. Hence, support team claiming something's "okay" to do when it's actually - strictly interpreted - against the rules (thus resulting in action to more specifically deny it in the future) isn't really new.

Then UltimateNewbie started arguing that there is no bias in these situations, hence I came to elaborate him an example of multihunter bias (where Veedeejem! seemed to agree).

You're simply the best example of multihunter bias, and a lot of people will support this claim.

Planetarion rules-making is often bound, like a dog to it's leash, to people's consistent attempts to go around the rules. Using external programs to log, modify, or bending the in-built limits to their limits (here, VNC, out-of-tag support planets, "semi-active retired players in tag for resources" while real players are out of tag, obviously coordinating into tag and vice versa, and so on). It's simply, even for the support team, hard to keep track on the real events. Usually, you really shouldn't be asking whether something's allowed or not from the support team, nor any regular multihunter. The only person you should direct your rules questions to, would be the chief multihunter of the given time, and even so you should make sure you log up things he says. Given all this, things may still be subject to change in regards to the multihunter's personal preferences and how he feels towards given factions.

If this wasn't specifically "forbidden" for this round, you could interpret it as an attempt to bend the rules. Much like VNC was, until it was officially listed as illegit. "Support planets" were to an extent like this - a midround change was once issued by a multihunter to forbid this activity (eg. to go around the given alliance planet limits by having cooperating planets outside tag). This rule was largely enforced according to personal preferences.

The bottom line is, forum moderator bias is largely inrelevant. (While it can happen too). Support team bias (a HC granting his own alliance the "right" to do something) can result in large issues. Same is true for multihunter bias. It's very obvious that people strongly affiliated to certain factions will be biased, more or less. Even if on the level of being more keen to listen to their former or future friends' explanations than their former or future enemies'.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 24 Jun 2008 at 09:24.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 13:59   #116
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikard
Are you allowed to start a new planet when you get closed?
Apparently you are not. When I was closed in the great scanning debacle of a few rounds ago I was told I could not open a new planet before my old one was deleted by the ticker or I would be closed for multiing. I was denied a request to be reset. But then I was treated extremely shabbily and with great bias because I chose to make a fuss. As others have said in this thread, how you approach the MH's makes a great difference to the type of justice you receive; something I thought was wrong then and is clearly still wrong now. That said, at least in the end they bowed to public pressure and now you can actually scan for who you like. Viva la revolution and all that.

And Keizari, seriously, you even won the round in question. Stop being a carebear, making the point once in the thread is surely enough.

Last edited by Achilles; 24 Jun 2008 at 15:41.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 14:59   #117
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
What difference does it make if this support team member was a HC in Denial or not. Because he is our HC this doesnt make him a support team member and they shudnt believe him when he says its ok? KoKs shud have known better yes. Reese and eksero were naive to believe this wasnt wrong and made a genuine mistake, as all humans do. They arent malicious cheaters and the scale of advantage gained in this case is neglible.
This whole "naive mistake" argument just doesn't hold up I'm afraid. I've known elviz for many many years and although I believe there's more to him than just his sordid past, I also know for a fact he knows the rules very well and there is literally no chance in hell he'd be unaware that what he was doing was illegal, and as such you have a outright guilty party amongst the co-conspiritors. Furthermore I spent some time in the same gal as eksero two rounds ago, and he did not display the level of IT ineptitude that would be required for a person not to understand that altering the information that is sent to the server gives them an unfair advantage, and as such is obviously illegal.

That's something else that bugs me with this argument. How naive does one have to be in order not to know that something which enables you to do things which others aren't able to do without specific knowledge which they have not been given gives you an unfair advantage. And how could any kind of unfair advantage ever be anything other than cheating?

I'd normaly be the first to question the capabilities of your HC's, but in this situation, I find that there is no possibility that the knowledge of the illegality of what they did escaped them.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 20:58   #118
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
no it doesn't. we should be allowed to set our factories to 0 "normally" if we want to.

Finally, someone who thinks like I do! WTF is wrong with having a 0 factories option?

IMO I think the planets that were reset were reset because the MH's knew they had made a wrong decision and there was no way to back out without conceading a failure on their part, so this was the best compromise they could come up with. They knew this problem had been around, they knew they failed to fix it, they knew it had been abused countless times before, only these few had been caught. They also knew they were using very fuzzy interpretation of the EULA to do it. Now apparently after a 2 minute fix, this can never happen again, so they say. 2 mins, if done 6 rounds ago when it first showed up, think of the ramifications....
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 21:03   #119
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse
it had been abused countless times before
Er. No.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 21:37   #120
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
I'd normaly be the first to question the capabilities of your HC's, but in this situation, I find that there is no possibility that the knowledge of the illegality of what they did escaped them.
And what's already been said, if they thought it was a legitimate tactic then why didn't they let more than a handful of people know about it in the ally (of whom only one actually benefited in the words of Venox)? I believe them as much as I believ Expl8t forgot where he obtained those logins.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 21:43   #121
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra
And what's already been said, if they thought it was a legitimate tactic then why didn't they let more than a handful of people know about it in the ally (of whom only one actually benefited in the words of Venox)? I believe them as much as I believ Expl8t forgot where he obtained those logins.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 03:11   #122
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse
Finally, someone who thinks like I do! WTF is wrong with having a 0 factories option?
Nothing, if it was an option presented to you by the game. It isn't. If we are just going to make shit up then what's wrong with a billion ships for the price of one option? I mean, if you find a way to hack the DB input then it should be ok right? Seems fair to me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse
IMO I think the planets that were reset were reset because the MH's knew they had made a wrong decision and there was no way to back out without conceading a failure on their part, so this was the best compromise they could come up with. They knew this problem had been around, they knew they failed to fix it, they knew it had been abused countless times before, only these few had been caught.
If they really thought it was above board they would have told everyone in their alliance that they could trust even remotely about it, as mentioned above. They didn't, they kept it at HC and prior renowned cheat level only. Can you explain why that is?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:00   #123
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
And Keizari, seriously, you even won the round in question. Stop being a carebear, making the point once in the thread is surely enough.
That'd be a fair point. If it only was true. Which it isn't. I'm waiting for you to elaborate how exactly I won that round as a planet/galactic commander of my galaxy/high commander of the Omen alliance. Feel free to take this elaboration into my private messages box, but please do so very soon or retract your claims.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:38   #124
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Its been a case of some closed some reset.
Is it fair to punish people differently for the same crime?

Shouldn't there be a standard punishment for this. Like deletion.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:40   #125
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

We all hear that Koks said it was alright to do this?
But is there actually any proof of this?

Surely in order to try and clear the names of the other HC's you would have some proof that the support team member gave you permission to do so?

Without logging such a conversation, would be such a niave move if your doing something your unsure of. You would have the logs as back up in your defence if/when you get caught.

Any chance of seeing these logs to prove that it was an honourable mistake?
Not having these logs suggests that this may just be an elaborate story to cover up a plotted plan at cheating to win the round.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:58   #126
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by damo8
Is it fair to punish people differently for the same crime?

Shouldn't there be a standard punishment for this. Like deletion.
No, and as ive said numerous times throughout all of this, had i been the one to handle the case i would have closed them and left them to be deleted by the ticker.
Theres no excuse for what they did, absolutely no way they can pretend that it was a potentially valid tactic and absolutely no way they can say it wasnt them.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:31   #127
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by damo8
We all hear that Koks said it was alright to do this?
But is there actually any proof of this?

Surely in order to try and clear the names of the other HC's you would have some proof that the support team member gave you permission to do so?

Without logging such a conversation, would be such a niave move if your doing something your unsure of. You would have the logs as back up in your defence if/when you get caught.

Any chance of seeing these logs to prove that it was an honourable mistake?
Not having these logs suggests that this may just be an elaborate story to cover up a plotted plan at cheating to win the round.
This is an interesting post for a multitude of reasons. First, as mentioned in the post before, the support team does not make descisions in what is correct according to rules and whatnot. Questions regarding enforcement of the rules should be directed to the multihunters (preferably the chief MH). Ignroance is no excuse here. The "but support/MHs told me it's okay" -card has been played before, and at that time no support team member nor multihunter ever admitted to having stated so. In this case, it's even more blatantly obvious, since it's frankly quite awkward to "allow" yourself something in a position where you're not authorized to do so.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 12:28   #128
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

In Denial's Defence

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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 14:15   #129
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
No, and as ive said numerous times throughout all of this, had i been the one to handle the case i would have closed them and left them to be deleted by the ticker.
Theres no excuse for what they did, absolutely no way they can pretend that it was a potentially valid tactic and absolutely no way they can say it wasnt them.
good thing you weren't involved then phil wasn't it.
although i respect your view, i don't agree with it.

Denial HC were reset to save alliance tag, the others were deleted, denial still lost score/rank/value/roids. the planets that were deleted are free to rejoin the universe, and as "RESETTING" EVERYTHING is put back to tick1, so basically, every1 got dealt with the same.

The hate for Denial is massive here, yet they've done nothing wrong other than shitty PR r26, and 3 HC making an error, yet they've bought new players through, a fun atmosphere for their 75 members each round, and a challenge for #1 spot alliance. From what i can see, other alliances are jumping on the "bad denial" bandwagon of hate merely because Denial members are bigger, fatter, more active than their alliance members, and its making them look shit! would this be a fair assessment?

ofcourse thats not every alliance, but good excuse to block against denial so if another alliance wins the round it can be classed as legitimate rather than being branded the 2nd best alliance, wouldn't you say?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 14:22   #130
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

i don't think anyone particularly hates denial but i'd probably guess people think you guys are pretty stupid all things considered.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 15:09   #131
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keizari
I'm waiting for you to elaborate how exactly I won that round as a planet/galactic commander of my galaxy/high commander of the Omen alliance.
My apologies, it was a very long time ago and I incorrectly assumed that eXilition played the round when in fact they played the following one and that you were affiliated with them at the time. The main thrust of my point stands though, in was 10 rounds ago, anyone who cares already knows about it. There are other threads discussing it in great depth and if you feel the topic still deserves attention you could bump one. I doubt you'd get a very positive reaction though. It was a fair point to raise once and an accurate rebuttal of Assassin's (and other's) posts but I really don't think it was required to debate the entire thing again in a thread that doesn't even concern it. You stated your opinion on MH bias and "judicial inequality", which I happen to agree with but I don't agree with having to read it another 3 or 4 times in exhaustive detail. That said I once again apologise for incorrectly assigning your affiliation that round.

Last edited by Achilles; 25 Jun 2008 at 17:50.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 16:14   #132
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
good thing you weren't involved then phil wasn't it.
although i respect your view, i don't agree with it.

Denial HC were reset to save alliance tag, the others were deleted, denial still lost score/rank/value/roids. the planets that were deleted are free to rejoin the universe, and as "RESETTING" EVERYTHING is put back to tick1, so basically, every1 got dealt with the same.

The hate for Denial is massive here, yet they've done nothing wrong other than shitty PR r26, and 3 HC making an error, yet they've bought new players through, a fun atmosphere for their 75 members each round, and a challenge for #1 spot alliance. From what i can see, other alliances are jumping on the "bad denial" bandwagon of hate merely because Denial members are bigger, fatter, more active than their alliance members, and its making them look shit! would this be a fair assessment?

ofcourse thats not every alliance, but good excuse to block against denial so if another alliance wins the round it can be classed as legitimate rather than being branded the 2nd best alliance, wouldn't you say?
I don't really know how you can say this, because the first thing they did after getting reset, was to put their planets up for deletion.

Because everyone knew their coords. Reese blamed it on getting dirty messages ingame, which clearly should have been reported and dealt with that way?

Also, VenoX was still HC ingame and open. Why do they need all their HC's to manage ingame? It's a blatant lie to stay open and say they didnt cheat seriously enough to get closed. It's all a show for the public/denial members.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 16:18   #133
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
The hate for Denial is massive here
Personally, I don't "hate" Denial, but it's fun throwing shit in their direction every now and then, especially when there's a pretty good reason to, like there is now. If 3 ND HCs had gotten closed I would have done the exact same thing, and ditto for if it had been 3 Ascendancy members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
From what i can see, other alliances are jumping on the "bad denial" bandwagon of hate merely because Denial members are bigger, fatter, more active than their alliance members, and its making them look shit! would this be a fair assessment?
Opportunistic, but a perfectly legit strategy to influence the meta-game. I recall something similar happened last round, because of which an alliance got incomings from 6 alliances.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:13   #134
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
It was a fair point to raise once and an accurate rebuttal of Assassin's (and other's) posts but I really don't think it was required to debate the entire thing again in a thread that doesn't even concern it. You stated your opinion on MH bias and "judicial inequality", which I happen to agree with but I don't agree with having to read it another 3 or 4 times in exhaustive detail. That said I once again apologise for incorrectly assigning your affiliation that round.
As said, the validity of the point stands. The reason I had to extend the detail of the issue was to elaborate UltimateNewbie why he was wrong when he stated that

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateNewbie
However, i think the distinction here is that it is between rounds. Many of the MH rules are so broad they require specific interpretation sometimes essentially on the fly. Now, due to precedent, that needs to be maintained throughout the round, else you have what is essentially a mid round change which is usually a terrible thing.
while we all know there's been no hesitation to do mid-round EULA revamps when the "need" has arisen. If you read, it's been people stating false claims regarding the history of such events (the shady EULA parts barely covered, resulting in midround changes, support teams alledgedly allowing something while the reality is that they might never even have said so, et cetera).

I'm not sure how people contesting the validity of my point and me responding to them accordingly makes it less valid.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 21:17   #135
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Personally, I don't "hate" Denial, but it's fun throwing shit in their direction every now and then, especially when there's a pretty good reason to, like there is now. If 3 ND HCs had gotten closed I would have done the exact same thing, and ditto for if it had been 3 Ascendancy members.


Opportunistic, but a perfectly legit strategy to influence the meta-game. I recall something similar happened last round, because of which an alliance got incomings from 6 alliances.
i agree totally, i dont know about finer details or peoples views tho so not in enough of a situation to pass my side of that arguement.

last night was stressful/fun though, its a war game, i want war
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 21:27   #136
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

You know, im finding it hilarious that the denial HCs have the *audacity* to appeal against the punishment brought upon them

you were found guilty
you confessed your own guilt
appeals are entirely about proving innocence and not about giving reasons for why you cheated

have you no shame?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 21:35   #137
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Well, isn't it merely a technicality? You're always supposed to appeal, whatever the odds. Appealing for a more lenient sentence perhaps?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 21:37   #138
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

No, you're only going to succeed on an appeal if you can prove your innocence beyond a reasonable degree.
Theyve confessed already, as far as appeals go its game over for them. The fact that they're whining and trying just shows how far they are prepared to sink.
If i were still a multihunter i would consider increasing the sentence after such a pathetic and shallow attempt

Denial members - is this the sort of people you want to lead you?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 22:14   #139
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
No, you're only going to succeed on an appeal if you can prove your innocence beyond a reasonable degree.
Theyve confessed already, as far as appeals go its game over for them. The fact that they're whining and trying just shows how far they are prepared to sink.
If i were still a multihunter i would consider increasing the sentence after such a pathetic and shallow attempt

Denial members - is this the sort of people you want to lead you?
I don't think anyone needs to do anything. In terms of their own reputation they are pretty much digging their own hole.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 02:32   #140
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
No, you're only going to succeed on an appeal if you can prove your innocence beyond a reasonable degree.
Not at all. This only applies if you appeal your guilt. It is also possible in any reasonable system to seek an appellant review of your sentence(/punishment) which is what happened here. While I also disagree with the result in this case that is really an entirely separate issue.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 03:32   #141
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

hmmm... chances are that you can always appeal once, especially in criminal cases. You can almost always find a valid reason to say the lower court misapplied the law or made an error (courts of appeals do not review the facts, only the trial court does so. Court of Appeals review what the lower court did (mis)applying the law to the facts).

So the question largely becomes whether it is worth the $ (Appeals = more money). If you got 1 chance in 100, then it probably is a waste of resources (unless in a criminal case where death or big sentence is on the line). If you got better odds, and money, then, in civil cases, you will probably throw the dice once, twice or three more times.

Now, in some states (with a 3 tier court system), a 2nd appeal is largely at the discretion of the supreme court of each state (here in the US), it may vary by jurisdiction.

And the 3rd (and final) appeal to the Supreme Court of the land is 99.99 discretionary. The court decides whether it wants to hear it or not, and they have the final word.

Again, in appeal, the court does not review the facts. They only review legal questions (i.e. how the lower court (mis)applied the law to the facts).

----------
So, for example. Here we already know the fact that some of them cheated, but we do not know whether others did. If this was a real case, and Denial wished to appeal, they could not argue that none of them cheated (as Lokken said, they confessed [tip: NEVER CONFESS, always shut up!], this factual issue is settled). They would have to appeal/argue that the community missaplied EULA to those who confesed, etc

[heh, this is all oversimplified ofc]

Last edited by Aedolaws; 26 Jun 2008 at 03:53.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 05:05   #142
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
You know, im finding it hilarious that the denial HCs have the *audacity* to appeal against the punishment brought upon them

you were found guilty
you confessed your own guilt
appeals are entirely about proving innocence and not about giving reasons for why you cheated

have you no shame?
Like i said earlier, good thing you ain't a MH, Planetarion is now a better place for it

Denial HC and its members have been dealt with by the eula and community respectively.

Now take your egotistical personality and to be honest **** off, do you think Denial members would listen to you anyway? so asking the members questions relating to their round is dumb.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 07:40   #143
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
Like i said earlier, good thing you ain't a MH, Planetarion is now a better place for it

Denial HC and its members have been dealt with by the eula and community respectively.

Now take your egotistical personality and to be honest **** off, do you think Denial members would listen to you anyway? so asking the members questions relating to their round is dumb.
Personaly its only a good thing for Denial HC that Phil isnt a MH. He isnt stating somthing out of biased, he would be like this with anyone that abuses the system and cheats. Simple fact is they did and shouldnt of been re-oppend

Dont think hes trying to force members to leave Denial but to open their eyes on what a 'fantastic' HC team you have. One that lies, decieives and puts their own planets/egos above the alliance.

And the question still stands which the Denial people keep ignoring on this thread. If this was a legitemate tactic (or saw as one by the HC team) why didnt they actually put it as a valid tactic with their own members?

I have asked this question several times now and we never get a responce. Its a bit like the question is never asked. Reason why? Becuase they knew what would happen and knew it wasnt a valid tactic all along.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 08:13   #144
SteInMetz
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
Like i said earlier, good thing you ain't a MH, Planetarion is now a better place for it

Denial HC and its members have been dealt with by the eula and community respectively.

Now take your egotistical personality and to be honest **** off, do you think Denial members would listen to you anyway? so asking the members questions relating to their round is dumb.
I love how you keep ignoring my earlier post, even tho it was directed at you.

But it's ok, your probably in Denial.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 09:37   #145
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
And the question still stands which the Denial people keep ignoring on this thread. If this was a legitemate tactic (or saw as one by the HC team) why didnt they actually put it as a valid tactic with their own members?
Denial members are not "allowed" to post.

(Baah.)
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 11:52   #146
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

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Originally Posted by SteInMetz
I love how you keep ignoring my earlier post, even tho it was directed at you.

But it's ok, your probably in Denial.
i'll look for it
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 12:06   #147
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

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Originally Posted by SteInMetz
I don't really know how you can say this, because the first thing they did after getting reset, was to put their planets up for deletion.

Because everyone knew their coords. Reese blamed it on getting dirty messages ingame, which clearly should have been reported and dealt with that way?

Also, VenoX was still HC ingame and open. Why do they need all their HC's to manage ingame? It's a blatant lie to stay open and say they didnt cheat seriously enough to get closed. It's all a show for the public/denial members.
like i said earlier i'm not clued up on the inner thoughts of peoples minds so how can i possibly speak about how reese is thinking? all as i know is that hc are damn good at the job that they do.

also i'd like clarification on a certain issue, 2 nights ago ND raided the Denial in my gal, two of our biggest planets were closed for a brief time because some1 said they lived in the same hometown as eachother, after incs were past eta 4 they were reoppened, i've got a few questions....

1) Is it normal for MH-Team to be closing accounts at 5am?
2) Did ND have a hand in letting MH team know that both players lived in Liverpool
3) Was it neccessary to close these accounts at 5am and convieniently open them again after gals incs were eta 4.

Heres a few facts

. ND raided the gal, and DID profit from the closed accounts being closed
. Noone ingal has ever been under suspicion for cheating this round, so extremely odd to have two players closed from game for a period at an extremely odd time, considering they've both lived in liverpool since they played Planetarion.

I'm not gonna name people/coords here Ste, but please msg me on irc to clear this issue up
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 12:08   #148
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Denial members are not "allowed" to post.

(Baah.)
So you'd have 50 people posting the same views instead of five. It's probably better this way.

I'm posting because HC told me not to
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 12:31   #149
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
1) Is it normal for MH-Team to be closing accounts at 5am?
you *are* aware that fiery is american, arent you?
its not 5am where she is

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
2) Did ND have a hand in letting MH team know that both players lived in Liverpool
No, thats pretty damn obvious when you have the information staring you in the face from both signup details and ip addresses - which for certain ISPs narrow your place in the world down nicely.
If they were closed then you can be certain there was more to it than simply living in the same town.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
3) Was it neccessary to close these accounts at 5am and convieniently open them again after gals incs were eta 4.
You wanted the multihunters to do you a favour and close when its conveniant for you?
Are you insane?

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
Denial HC and its members have been dealt with by the eula and community respectively.
So explain why they thought they could do an end-run around the system and appeal against their punishment despite being found guilty, confessing that guilt and for the one HC who *didnt* cheat to apologise on their behalf as they didnt have the courage or decency to do it themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
Now take your egotistical personality and to be honest **** off, do you think Denial members would listen to you anyway? so asking the members questions relating to their round is dumb.
I really dont care if they listen to me or not, at the end of the day its their own actions that they have to account for.
This is a stain which will be on Denial for a *very* long time, and that stain will tar members who remain there equally if anything else comes to light about behaviour that breaches the eula again.
After last rounds debacle, and now this - for their own self interest they should be giving their position a really good think
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 12:49   #150
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Re: Denial HCs Round 27

Phil you've ranted on their alot, yet reall, you've answered **** all of my questions.

I stated that these individuals have lived in liverpool for their entire PA playing days, yet they've been closed for a very brief time while their gal has incs, alarm bells are ringing as to why this happened, so over the last 9 or so rounds fiery hasn't spotted they have similar ip's, yet on the night their gal is under attack she is surfing for cheats, they get closed, later to be reopened, ofcourse this is fair enough if they had of been cheating, but they weren't they are good honest people, yet because MH jumped the gun, the gal lossed and ND profitted, thats the bottom line, you say Fiery is American, all well and good, but abit of common sense wud be to speak to the people beforehand, i very much doubt that the gal will be reimbursed for MH bad handling of the situation.

Also you said "evidence", if this is the case, then why aren't they still closed? and your evidence is location? I'm sure that more than 2 ppl live in one place who play Planetarion, so just shhhh on that one, coz many ppl live close to eachother.

Lastly, your saying what denial members should do again, your in no position to tell them to "have a long hard think", members aren't dumb, they can make their own minds up im sure, and if they dont listen to you, why repeat ur sentence asking them to "think". Go find a girlfriend
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