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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:50   #101
HRH_H_Crab
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
So you wouldn't mind then if a cheater got caught in your alliance and they decided to close you and your entire alliance simply based on what that person did...
Would I mind? Yes.
But thats not the point.

You say it would be mighty easy to take an alliance down, I say it would make alliances a lot more careful about keeping their house in order.

It would make people a bit more careful about who they sign up with.

Instead of going:

"oh wow Im playing with <insert famous cheat> how unbelievably cool I am: he farmed himself to victory in round <insert round here>!"

It would be a case of:

"oh dear now that mh/pa crew have some teeth, I better find another alliance because that <insert famous cheat> dude is going to ruin things for everyone (yet again)."
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:55   #102
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
You're calling him a twat when what he did was PRESENT AND ARGUEMENT IN CIVIL FASHION! Seriously, learn to read you witless moron, the twats in this thread were wholly on the other side of the argument, Aedolaws made an admirable effort to refrain from stooping to their level, his patience was far greater than I personally would have shown in his situation. And you illiterate **** come in and start attacking him for this? LEARN TO READ A ****ING THREAD BEFORE REPLYING TO IT! YOU ARE WASTING MY AND EVERYONE ELSES TIME YOUR SELFCENTERED BULLSHIT! *THAT* IS WHY YOU ARE A TWAT YOU ****ING MORON!
I read until this far and then came into the conclusion that it's not really worth reading any arguments or posts from a person who feels the need to include a totally useless personal insult written in caps in his post.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:57   #103
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Would I mind? Yes.
But thats not the point.

You say it would be mighty easy to take an alliance down, I say it would make alliances a lot more careful about keeping their house in order.

It would make people a bit more careful about who they sign up with.

Instead of going:

"oh wow Im playing with <insert famous cheat> how unbelievably cool I am: he farmed himself to victory in round <insert round here>!"

It would be a case of:

"oh dear now that mh/pa crew have some teeth, I better find another alliance because that <insert famous cheat> dude is going to ruin things for everyone (yet again)."
And you seriously don't think that this would have a bad effect on the game? 1) A couple of alliances being closed because the accepted cheaters without knowing
2) New people / unknown people not being able to get into an alliance because "OMG, it might be a cheater send here to destroy us all!!!!!"

The game is allready lacking people playing it atm and a solution like that would only drive what players we have left away
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:03   #104
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
And you seriously don't think that this would have a bad effect on the game?
If you are seriously suggesting that as a community we shouldn't take a hard line against cheating because it might reduce the player base, then I am even more certain that I am right.

And if thats the feeling of the majority of the community (and each round I play it seems more certain that it is), then the day draws ever closer when I will do my bit to personally reduce the player base.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:05   #105
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Re: Official Denial Statement

I've lost all interest in debating the anti-Aedolaws crowd anymore, but there was something that did catch my eye in Kargools post, namely his quote from the EULA...

Now, I thought I knew the EULA rather well(I've even written two EULAs myself and read various others in the process), but the wording of the current PA EULA does seem to imply a that another matter concerning Denial as an alliance which was recently brought to my attention(although confidentially, and as such I won't go into details) may infact be in breach of the rules(as opposed to simply be in breach of the spirit of the rules)...

Mz, JBG, thoughts?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:14   #106
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
If you are seriously suggesting that as a community we shouldn't take a hard line against cheating because it might reduce the player base, then I am even more certain that I am right.

And if thats the feeling of the majority of the community (and each round I play it seems more certain that it is), then the day draws ever closer when I will do my bit to personally reduce the player base.
Then take a hard line against it with actions ingame (as is going on right now) but speaking of completly closing alliances is just lunacy.
Where does the closing spree end then?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:24   #107
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Where does the closing spree end then?
The closing spree ends when people that cheat are made pariahs for it instead of getting kudos for it.

The closing spree ends when fair play and adherence to the rules is rewarded rather than being an impediment to score.

The closing spree ends when people that behave in a way which deserves closure start to behave in a way which deserves their being allowed to continue playing.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:25   #108
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
I've lost all interest in debating the anti-Aedolaws crowd anymore
Not long ago you made some excellent points about this thread and its direction towards personal attacks. With all, if any, due respect, this thread is about the arguments he/she put forward, i wish no i'll will towards he/she, but i do believe the idea that was presented was ludacris. And while alot of people have made the attack on aedolaws personal, the higher majority, especially the last few posts, have all addressed the issue of banning the entire alliance Denial.
In fact Aedolaws hasn't even been mentioned in the last 12 posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
community we shouldn't take a hard line against cheating because it might reduce the player base
I know what you mean, and i point out that they were banned/reset/closed. You start banning people that are completly innocent then the game will totally fall apart, not just a reduced player base.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:34   #109
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
The closing spree ends when people that cheat are made pariahs for it instead of getting kudos for it.
I wasn't aware anyone was awarding them priase, but if so that's obviously wrong. The one thing that alot of people are screaming about is that they are only reset, not banned. As an earlier point brough up, what would be the point in banning? Make a new account, it's not hard. Only now you don't know who they are. And no-one even think of mentioning IP Banning, it takes roughly 2 minutes to change, ignoring proxies etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
The closing spree ends when fair play and adherence to the rules is rewarded rather than being an impediment to score.
Doing the right thing should not be rewarded. Doing the wrong thing should be punished! Then everyone is on a level playing field, i do however believe cheating for the most part is only a small percentage of the community, so MOSTLY it is fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
The closing spree ends when people that behave in a way which deserves closure start to behave in a way which deserves their being allowed to continue playing.
Well the people that were doing the wrong thing were reset, and while it would be impossiable to undo all the damage that has been done, they have been reset to 0. And as one can only assume they are being observed closly, one would also assume they are doing the right thing as they haven't been kicked/reset/closed again since. So does that mean they're allowed to play in peace now?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:43   #110
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
The closing spree ends when people that cheat are made pariahs for it instead of getting kudos for it.

The closing spree ends when fair play and adherence to the rules is rewarded rather than being an impediment to score.

The closing spree ends when people that behave in a way which deserves closure start to behave in a way which deserves their being allowed to continue playing.
And how many completly innocent people do you plan on closing along with them?
People that will probably never play PA again.
People that (in any other round than this one) payed money to play PA and get closed because somebody in their alliance cheats?
Talking about good customer relationship...

What do you think will happen to a shop or any other business that refuses costumers just caus another customer once didn't pay his bills or steal?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:53   #111
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
I know what you mean, and i point out that they were banned/reset/closed. You start banning people that are completly innocent then the game will totally fall apart, not just a reduced player base.
I disagree. I think people that put a premium on honesty and adherence to the rules would finally see some sort of reward for it. The only way the game would "completely fall apart" is if the majority of the community are cheating, and the ones that aren't cannot be assed to deal with the rest.

I would strongly suggest that if thats the case, then the sooner it falls apart the better.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:57   #112
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by -CP-
Yes. Of course it is a punishment for the events that has taken place the last days. It has nothing to do with the fact that "someone" wanted to take out Denial and they didn't have the balls to do it themselves. So why not find a good excuse to teamup with other allies and get back the #1 position
I for one am certainly surprised that a group of alliances hit the extremely unpopular current #1 alliance.

PS Nobody would end up playing if we implemented crab's suggestion. I for one certainly wouldn't even consider putting in effort into a round where someone I only vaguely know might end up getting me closed. Not to mention the rather obvious trick where any spy you can get into another alliance could then be asked to cheat in order to get that alliance closed. The only real response to this would be staggeringly strict recruitment procedures (hardly an avenue we want to pursue).

Quote:
Mz, JBG, thoughts?
Unless you want to talk about it I'm not going to comment!
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:00   #113
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
... but the wording of the current PA EULA does seem to imply a that another matter concerning Denial as an alliance which was recently brought to my attention(although confidentially, and as such I won't go into details) may infact be in breach of the rules(as opposed to simply be in breach of the spirit of the rules)...

Mz, JBG, thoughts?
Its hard to comment on something when you dont know the details of it, Care to elaborate?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:00   #114
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
This act makes them no better than how america handles the world, and its sad because you europeans give us americans grief for it but yet at first chance you do the same thing, sad really.
I refer to your earlier statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
We need to stop trying to relate this situation to the real world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
I know this samething happened last round when some cheaters were caught, you people need to let the PA Team handle these issues and just play the damn game. This kind of self righteous cleansing punishment you feel you need to give cheaters needs to stop, its not your job or your duty, and it pulls from the fun of the game. Its gotta start somewhere.

Before you crucify me and flame me til my hair turns red, yes i am a member of xVx an alliance part of this attack, but that doesn't mean i agree to it and i refused to take part of it.
Would you have joined the attack if they hadn't cheated? If Denial was running away with the round (which, incidentially, they were), and a group of alliances wanted to take them down a notch?
This is a war game. People don't need any justification at all to attack an alliance. While you can criticise the motivation behind the attack, ingame actions of any sort are always warranted.

On a complete sidenote (though I'm sure someone will feel the need to respond to just this point), if you define cheating as "performing ingame actions which are against the rules", then there was no confirmed cheating in Ascendancy last round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
The whole holier than thou attitude of many of you in this thread is ridiculous, many of you have broken the EULA in some way or another at some point in time during the course of your PA careers, whether you were caught or not is immaterial, its still hypocritical.
I'm glad to say I've never cheated in PA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Don't punish people simple based on other people's actions and the assumption that they probably knew what they were doing.
While I agree with your conclusion, the first half of your post is complete and utter bollocks. You put words in people's mouths, oversimplify the arguments involved, and finally you exaggerate and distort their conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
I've lost all interest in debating the anti-Aedolaws crowd anymore, but there was something that did catch my eye in Kargools post, namely his quote from the EULA...
I'm slowly but surely starting to see why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Now, I thought I knew the EULA rather well(I've even written two EULAs myself and read various others in the process), but the wording of the current PA EULA does seem to imply a that another matter concerning Denial as an alliance which was recently brought to my attention(although confidentially, and as such I won't go into details) may infact be in breach of the rules(as opposed to simply be in breach of the spirit of the rules)...

Mz, JBG, thoughts?
I'm sorry man, if you want to discuss anything on a public set of forums, you need to be a little bit more specific.

[edit]I see JBG beat me to it.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:01   #115
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Doing the right thing should not be rewarded. Doing the wrong thing should be punished! Then everyone is on a level playing field, i do however believe cheating for the most part is only a small percentage of the community, so MOSTLY it is fair.
I think that most of the community cheats.

I may be paranoid about that, but there have been issues those discussed in this thread EVERY SINGLE ROUND I have played, and I started in round 4.

Jerome posted earlier in the thread words to the effect of "cheating is fine provided you don't get caught" - I believe that this is exactly what the majority of players believe.

I think the only way to change it is to make an entire alliance pay for the actions of cheats.

Anything less is a slap on the wrist and a green flag to start all over again which is precisely why we still see so much cheating.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:05   #116
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
I for one certainly wouldn't even consider putting in effort into a round where someone I only vaguely know might end up getting me closed.
I didn't say anything about closing innocent people.
The innocent should be allowed to form a new alliance if they wish, or find another alliance.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:05   #117
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I for one am certainly surprised that a group of alliances hit the extremely unpopular current #1 alliance.
My point is that people are pretending there is some moral purpose behind these attacks when they could have been honest and said: We want your roids.

There's nothing wrong with attacking, I just find it distasteful to pretend to do it for the good of the game or something.

I think you know that the people who are being hit (as far as I know) knew nothing about the 0 factory scheme or what it was and only play the game as it is suppose to be played.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:08   #118
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I think that most of the community cheats.

I may be paranoid about that, but there have been issues those discussed in this thread EVERY SINGLE ROUND I have played, and I started in round 4.

Jerome posted earlier in the thread words to the effect of "cheating is fine provided you don't get caught" - I believe that this is exactly what the majority of players believe.

I think the only way to change it is to make an entire alliance pay for the actions of cheats.

Anything less is a slap on the wrist and a green flag to start all over again which is precisely why we still see so much cheating.
You as a community have every right to punish them ingame.
However talks of getting an entire alliance closed even the ones that don't have anything to do with it is just major overkill.
Also keep in mind the other flaws what you propose have (which I think have been pointed out enough by me & by JBG's last post)
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:10   #119
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I think that most of the community cheats.
Thats a depressing point of view
I think there is a culture of 'push the boundaries as far as they go' which is concerning but i wouldnt go as far as to say most people cheat.
Now, i dont quite like the status quo where rules are determined as a blacklist of what *isnt* allowed as it allows for people to push them as far as they can - what would be better at solving this is a whitelist solution which explicitly states what you *are* allowed to do, and anything else is forbidden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Jerome posted earlier in the thread words to the effect of "cheating is fine provided you don't get caught" - I believe that this is exactly what the majority of players believe.
It may be what clusters of people believe but i dont think its a view shared between most - take this thread for example. A handful, if any are condoning the actions of Denial HC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I think the only way to change it is to make an entire alliance pay for the actions of cheats.
I really cant agree on this - its overkill imo. What would be better is for people to grow a backbone and to reject people who have cheated in the past from ever getting into their alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Anything less is a slap on the wrist and a green flag to start all over again which is precisely why we still see so much cheating.
we see cheating because 'people are shit', ultimately. Theres a distinct lack in ethics and fair play when it comes to competition of any sort.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:18   #120
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Cheating cant be fun can it? Not that i know what type of "cheat" they have used but still, whats the fun in being the "best" if you know its only cause u know ur way around things

Oh well, were all different :P
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:20   #121
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorn
Cheating cant be fun can it? Not that i know what type of "cheat" they have used but still, whats the fun in being the "best" if you know its only cause u know ur way around things

Oh well, were all different :P
cheating can only be fun for those who are cheating. For everyone else its distinctly not fun.

They used something that rewrites sections of the page so that they could send variables to the server which are not possible through normal means. It only worked due to a severe lack of any server side checking of data passed.
it could easily have been done numerous other ways to have the same effect.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:20   #122
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
I really cant agree on this - its overkill imo. What would be better is for people to grow a backbone and to reject people who have cheated in the past from ever getting into their alliances
Alternatively, what happened to Ascendancy last round and Denial this round is a clear example of how the PA community can punish those it views as being in the wrong. I'm not entirely sure if I'm in favour of the direction this is going into, but I am sure that I prefer it over anything Crab suggested.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:22   #123
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by -CP-
My point is that people are pretending there is some moral purpose behind these attacks when they could have been honest and said: We want your roids.

There's nothing wrong with attacking, I just find it distasteful to pretend to do it for the good of the game or something.

I think you know that the people who are being hit (as far as I know) knew nothing about the 0 factory scheme or what it was and only play the game as it is suppose to be played.
I wanted your roids! Others felt Denial deserved to be hit for the actions their HC took. I did too to an extent but only because Denial got involved in the hit on Ascendancy last round. You'd have to ask each alliance for their own reasons to be honest.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:33   #124
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Re: Official Denial Statement

It doesn't matter really - attacking is part of the game, if they wanted to do it to enforce some kind of 'moral' point or whether it's just for the roids, I'm sure Denial will deal with it and the game will be better for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorn
Cheating cant be fun can it? Not that i know what type of "cheat" they have used but still, whats the fun in being the "best" if you know its only cause u know ur way around things

Oh well, were all different :P
Actually cheating and winning is sort of a giddy thrill. There's always something nice about watching your schemes, however underhanded they might be, working out for you.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:39   #125
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I wanted your roids!
Thank you for being honest.

I also felt the asc hit last round was rediculous and wanted no part of it. Don't know what others did though.

I'll remove myself from the discussion and leave you to it.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:41   #126
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Jerome posted earlier in the thread words to the effect of "cheating is fine provided you don't get caught" - I believe that this is exactly what the majority of players believe.
by the way, the reason i stand by statement is (believe it or not) not because of the 'unfair advantage' gained by cheating but i think a lot of things that are constituted as cheating in PA are stupid, and should be viable options implemented into the game. account sharing is a GOOD thing, the time intensive aspect of planetarion is ridiculous and incredibly self-involved for a game to have to assume that it should be the focal point of a players life. more controversially perhaps, i think each 'credit' should allow up to 10 planets, and farming and nearly every limit implemented in the game should be lifted simply because if you actually think about the width of any pathway you can take in the game right now; it's of an embarrassing size relatively to any other big internet game, text based or not.

cheating in the sense of actual DB manipulation like these naughty evil denial have done here is obviously still always going to be a no-no. however, i think people should have had the ability to stall production lines to begin with. which leads to me now summarising my point: i think 'CHEATING' should be reduced to viable options for EVERY player, not just some with extensive knowledge about VNCs or html or whatever the ****. you're never going to be able to stop the cheating as long as there's an unfair advantage to be gained. however, if you remove the unfair advantage aspect from it and make options available to everyone........
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:44   #127
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
you're never going to be able to stop the cheating as long as there's an unfair advantage to be gained.
As you mentioned VNC, this would essentially require allowing people to control other people's accounts.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:45   #128
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Re: Official Denial Statement

No, you just give them your password etc and they log in from home, this if account sharing were legal.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:45   #129
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Re: Official Denial Statement

yes as i said "account sharing is a GOOD thing, the time intensive aspect of planetarion is ridiculous and incredibly self-involved for a game to have to assume that it should be the focal point of a players life" which could be translated to: account sharing should be allowed (to some extent at the very least)


edit: travian is a good example of account sharing done legally in my opinion by the way, well maybe not 'good' as in good as it can be but it's definitely a huge progress on pa's insistence that our lives revolve around pa's events!
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 11:58   #130
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Yeah. I agree that the time intensive aspect of the game is a key part of what's killing it.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 12:41   #131
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yeah. I agree that the time intensive aspect of the game is a key part of what's killing it.

See? Now you've ruined a perfectly good argument by agreeing :-/
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 12:49   #132
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Well, to further elaborate, it's the fact that you cannot really choose when to play (eg. to play when you have time, when you feel like it) to succeed, instead, the game flow dictates it (be it in the middle of night, while you're having sex, and so on).
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 13:29   #133
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Thats a depressing point of view
Its a point of view which has come about because time and time again, one will post in a thread like this, leave it for five minutes and come back to find:

Quote:
The only real response to this would be staggeringly strict recruitment procedures (hardly an avenue we want to pursue).
Translation: "I for one cannot be arsed to spend any effort whatsoever in ensuring that people I play with are keeping their noses clean, and btw, where was that login to the other alliances tools?"

And posts from Jerome and Tietäjä discussing some other rules that they feel it is acceptable to break because they don't like the way the game is designed.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 13:36   #134
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Translation: "I for one cannot be arsed to spend any effort whatsoever in ensuring that people I play with are keeping their noses clean, and btw, where was that login to the other alliances tools?"
I actually do. I just don't think we should make keeping cheaters out of your alliance the #1 aim of the game. It's an internet game, not a UN convention on human rights. Maybe you'd like to play a game where the most effective strategy to win is inserting someone willing to cheat into your competitor alliances. I for one, wouldn't.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 13:56   #135
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Maybe you'd like to play a game where the most effective strategy to win is inserting someone willing to cheat into your competitor alliances.
We might have to tighten things up a bit, but I don't think it would take my lot a lot of work to safeguard against this. I believe that the culture of fair play is very strong in my alliance so it wouldn't be a big problem.

If I'm wrong about that, I would be very pleased to find out sooner rather than later, because I'd rather not waste time playing with cheats.

If you are really scared about taking some responsibility to help clean up the game, I would propose maybe significantly reducing the size of alliances - this might make the task for HC more palatable - but hey that involves regulation which you detest in all forms, and what you want is a total free for all where the best hackers or those with the largest clique earn victory right?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 14:18   #136
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
Its a point of view which has come about because time and time again, one will post in a thread like this, leave it for five minutes and come back to find:



Translation: "I for one cannot be arsed to spend any effort whatsoever in ensuring that people I play with are keeping their noses clean, and btw, where was that login to the other alliances tools?"

And posts from Jerome and Tietäjä discussing some other rules that they feel it is acceptable to break because they don't like the way the game is designed.
i think you miss my point, i don't think it's 'acceptable' to cheat (i don't encourage it) however never am i going to think that it's unconditionally 'bad' or 'evil' just because it's in the eula that account sharing is naughty. it's completely circumstantial and i don't think it's as black and white as the game tries to make it be.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 14:38   #137
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
We might have to tighten things up a bit, but I don't think it would take my lot a lot of work to safeguard against this. I believe that the culture of fair play is very strong in my alliance so it wouldn't be a big problem.
I'm sure it is. However we'd be completely changing the concept of the game. If only one "bad apple" joins or just one spy is successfully inserted your alliance gets deleted. It doesn't currently matter that much if one planet in alliance X cheats. Under your proposal it becomes the single most important factor in the game.

Quote:
If I'm wrong about that, I would be very pleased to find out sooner rather than later, because I'd rather not waste time playing with cheats.
But you're probably not. If 74 players in ND don't cheat and one who, say, just joined this round gave his login to a friend because he was out one night and couldn't get to a computer to run his fleet or something like that, should the other 74 have their game taken away from them? If you've done nothing wrong and the only way you could ensure that nothing could have happened was outright paranoia verging on a phobia of people not already established in your community should you really be punished? People just won't play under your system. The risk of having something you put effort into destroyed because you didn't put in enough effort in a related area is just absurd. As jer points out it's the amount of effort this game often requires that's proving to be its downfall.

Quote:
those with the largest clique earn victory right?
That does happen, is happening and will always happen in a war game. Numbers, activity, skill, that's what wins PA (in decreasing order of importance).

Significantly reducing the size of alliances is likely to kill the game completely as has been pointed out elsewhere on numerous occasions and discussed at great length. Or you'd just have alliances that would effectively split into 2 or 3 parts.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 16:34   #138
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Mystic <3

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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 16:52   #139
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Lets play a game, 80% of you can pretend to be America, 20% of you can pretend to be Iraq and lets say hmmmmm roids = oil.

Btw id be interested in knowing who was responsible for approaching the allies involved in this. Who approached who etc. Any chance of that happening?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 17:13   #140
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Allright, new day, bunch of new posts, the extremes even more far away from eachother, Denial still standing strong after a bunch of them cheated, and even a few got caught, and no compromise in sight (which was what I originally intended, and we got close yesterday with Lokken's proposal).

We have not punished the alliance for harboring terrorists (hah, I had to do it)

We have not shown to the community, in a convincing way, that top alliances better revise their internal policies and they better stress to their members that cheating is forbidden.

We have not offered any restitution to the community, and the victims (we all) are left simply with the assurance that this won't happen again.

We have even encouraged certain HCs to strongly believe that it is better a game in which HCs should not ask and the members should not tell, and if someone gets caught they are on their own, and the alliance will only suffer their loss (until next round).

At this point, it seems evident that Denial won't be barred from this round, nor players will be reset that should have known and done something about the cheating. This is unfortunate. We could have made an example of them and teach a lesson to us all. We squandered this opportunity.

Touche
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:23   #141
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Now, I thought I knew the EULA rather well(I've even written two EULAs myself and read various others in the process), but the wording of the current PA EULA does seem to imply a that another matter concerning Denial as an alliance which was recently brought to my attention(although confidentially, and as such I won't go into details) may infact be in breach of the rules(as opposed to simply be in breach of the spirit of the rules)...
Do tell...
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:26   #142
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Re: Official Denial Statement

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Originally Posted by Reese
They did.
Such a blatant lie...

Or did KoKs get reset and get to 1.3mil score before getting closed again?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:36   #143
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Re: Official Denial Statement

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Originally Posted by Aedolaws
We have not punished the church for harboring paedophiles (hah, I had to do it)

We have not shown to the community, in a convincing way, that church better revise their internal policy and they better stress to their members that molesting children is forbidden.

We have not offered any restitution to the community, and the victims (we all) are left simply with the assurance that this won't happen again.

We have even encouraged certain bishops to strongly believe that it is better a life in which bishops should not ask and the priests should not tell, and if someone gets caught everything will be covered for, and the church will only deny everything.

At this point, it seems evident that church won't be barred from this world, nor molestors will be castrated that should have known and done something about the molesting. This is unfortunate. We could have made an example of them and teach a lesson to us all. We squandered this opportunity.

Touche

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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:41   #144
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Re: Official Denial Statement

very funny indeed
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:46   #145
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Re: Official Denial Statement

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Would you have joined the attack if they hadn't cheated? If Denial was running away with the round (which, incidentially, they were), and a group of alliances wanted to take them down a notch?
Had it been for that justification then I'd see nothing wrong with it, because of the nature of the game. But in all honesty can you say that is the reason that attack occurred last night?

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
This is a war game. People don't need any justification at all to attack an alliance. While you can criticize the motivation behind the attack, in game actions of any sort are always warranted.
If there was no malicious intent because of their few members cheating as a cause for that attack last night, then i have to give kudos to Ascendancy for puppeteering people to there will.


I took last round off so i was not here for the Ascendancy fiasco.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 19:07   #146
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Curiously Aedolaws, how are u any less responsible for Denial HC's cheating than the members are? Simply for the fact that u dont idle in the private channel? If you are privy to exactly the same information as Denial members, surely you are just as responsible as you proclaim the members to be?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 19:19   #147
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Re: Official Denial Statement

PA is a team game. I am not part of their team. We already went over this JM. supra
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 19:21   #148
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Re: Official Denial Statement

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Originally Posted by crazypyro
Had it been for that justification then I'd see nothing wrong with it, because of the nature of the game. But in all honesty can you say that is the reason that attack occurred last night?


If there was no malicious intent because of their few members cheating as a cause for that attack last night, then i have to give kudos to Ascendancy for puppeteering people to there will.


I took last round off so i was not here for the Ascendancy fiasco.
/invite crazypyro #therealworld

I agree that its great play from Asc, assuming it was them who kicked it all off, but seriously how retarded are the other HC for actually swallowing it? Id love to say all other HC did it to take Denial down a peg as, for once, itd show some foresight amongst the PA leadership, but really, we both know theyre not that intelligent, in which case, they made out to be handy henchmen.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 19:27   #149
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Re: Official Denial Statement

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Originally Posted by Aedolaws
PA is a team game. I am not part of their team. We already went over this JM. supra
Team? You mean like, HC Team? Last i heard Denial had 4 members in that "Team," not 75.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 19:30   #150
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Re: Official Denial Statement

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin]
/invite crazypyro #therealworld

I agree that its great play from Asc, assuming it was them who kicked it all off, but seriously how retarded are the other HC for actually swallowing it? Id love to say all other HC did it to take Denial down a peg as, for once, itd show some foresight amongst the PA leadership, but really, we both know theyre not that intelligent, in which case, they made out to be handy henchmen.

When did I ever accuse or state this to be fact? I didn't. Don't turn hypothetical questions into your assumed facts.
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