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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 12:25   #1
Elevator
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New feature; blow up your own constructions

I would like to suggest the feature of being able to blow up your own buildings. It would make a nice edition to help scanners reach 150 amps and blow up their unwanted constructions as research labs etc when maxed out on other constructions.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 13:29   #2
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

No, because building constructions is (and should be) a strategic choice which will affect your entire round.

If you want 150 amps, you have to accept the factory/res lab/finance centre trade-off. That's just the way it is.


Why make the game easier? It's a challenge to get to 150 amps for a reason - because you're sacrificing a lot to reach that pinnacle.



(by the way, this isn't the first thread on this subject)
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 13:58   #3
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
(by the way, this isn't the first thread on this subject)
Indeed not. I've looked back a couple of pages in search of it, but lost my motivation before I found it.

I think the current system is fine, and doesn't need change; if you want your cons removed, get someone to havoc you, and run the risk someone else kills more than you wanted.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 14:41   #4
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Indeed not. I've looked back a couple of pages in search of it, but lost my motivation before I found it.

I think the current system is fine, and doesn't need change; if you want your cons removed, get someone to havoc you, and run the risk someone else kills more than you wanted.
I didn't even bother looking.

The problem with that mz, is that according to "Fiery" the "Head of the Multihunters" that would be classed as "farming".

Although she told me that when I'd done it, it was farming... yet refused to take punitive measures against me.

So either she was talking out of her arse, or doesn't punish cheaters any more.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 15:47   #5
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No, because building constructions is (and should be) a strategic choice which will affect your entire round.
Errr? Whatever you do with your constructions it affects your round, destroying them would affect it, keeping them would affect it, i don't really see where you are trying to go with this. I for one believe that the ability to destroy constructions might actually be more interesting strategically in the long run (admittedly it would probably require a more exciting and diverse constructions/techtree than what we have atm, but the possibility would be there).

i don't agree it would make the game easier either, given the right cost for destroying your constructions (i.e. it takes 1 tick + 20% of the building cost to remove a construction). It would actually add some more options to switch gameplay or focus during the (short) round and perhaps make the game a bit more exciting in terms of planet management.

Quote:
Why make the game easier? It's a challenge to get to 150 amps for a reason - because you're sacrificing a lot to reach that pinnacle.
it would still be a challange? It still a choise to be high on amps from the start, which helps your alliance by being able to scan the heavy dist whores aswell, opposed to a slower start to get other benefits (fast research) while being able to scan less targets. I really don't see the issue. Its still quite alot of work to get to 150 amps regardless of being able to destroy buildings in the process.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 15:50   #6
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
(i.e. it takes 1 tick + 20% of the building cost to remove a construction
Perfeck solution.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 15:51   #7
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

SKing makes it incredibly hard to get and keep your 150 amps or dists, so I'd say there's enough challenge even with the ability to remove your own structures. I have to say I'm liking this idea more and more.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 16:33   #8
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Its a tactical choice how you build up your constructions. Therefore forethought should be put into how you build them up. Im opposed to allowing people to cherrypick their structures at a whim.

If destroying them yourself does become an option ( and certain 'lobbyist' groups sure seem persistant in getting their way despite it being a bad choice ) -it should leave the construction slot entirely unavailable for re-use by any other class of construction
ie a light factory can only become a medium or heavy factory.
an amp can only become an amp ( and/or a dist )

etc

It should also take minimum of 2x construction time to remove + replace, and come with a decommisioning cost that is non-trivial.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 16:40   #9
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Not in agreement here. It's all about freedom of choice, and not being told how to play the game.

But can your tell me where to find these anarchic lobbyist groups? I want to hang out with them and attend meetings and such.

Ooooh, I could get a new t-shirt!

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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 16:45   #10
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

'oh no, i should be allowed to have my fleet instantaneously appear at a targets planet when im attacking them and let it stay there for 50 ticks. Its freedom of choice - i dont like being told i have to wait a few hours before my fleet can arrive'

Freedom of choice is not a reasonable excuse for altering game dynamics. Games have rules, and procedures in order to play them and planetarion is no different.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 16:59   #11
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Since it's already possible to do this (with a slight risk of others cov-opping you as well) using cov-ops by friendly planets I don't see why it shouldn't be implemented. If it is actually not allowed by the rules (and it isn't disallowed in any specific section of the EULA) then it is an entirely unenforcable rule anyway since it's virtually impossible to track every single cov-op and even when you find something suspicious then it's almost impossible to prove it's a friendly planet doing the cov-op anyway.

If something is possible but against a completely unenforcable rule and the playerbase agrees it gives no major advantage then I don't really see any point in not just allowing it.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 17:06   #12
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
...then it is an entirely unenforcable rule anyway since it's virtually impossible to track every single cov-op and even when you find something suspicious then it's almost impossible to prove it's a friendly planet doing the cov-op anyway.
afaik, every covert op is already logged and trackable, and it is trivial to automatically check to see if they lower their security prior to a covert op and then raise it again straight after.
its not something that you need to manually check for each one, theres often a telltale pattern.
its just like one of the oldest tricks to determine account sharing. They change the password to something - someone else logs in, and they change the password again after the person is done - often back to the same one.

As for unenforcible - tell that to the multihunters. They can enforce any rule as they see fit.
For such an event, imo they should restore the structure, remove the xp from the covert opper and punish both by removing 5% of value and xp.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 17:24   #13
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
'oh no, i should be allowed to have my fleet instantaneously appear at a targets planet when im attacking them and let it stay there for 50 ticks. Its freedom of choice - i dont like being told i have to wait a few hours before my fleet can arrive'

Freedom of choice is not a reasonable excuse for altering game dynamics. Games have rules, and procedures in order to play them and planetarion is no different.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you again here. This feature would not alter the game dynamics in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER. People can already get their structures removed (by friendly/hostile covops/sks) whereas even when the research tree is fully maxed out... and then some for Havoc... appearing 'instantly' is not possible. Stay for more than one tick is not possible (without using multiple fleets).

So comparing something that is possible to two things that aren't makes your argument invalid.

It's hardly going to be a huge revolutionary change, but it will be improving the gameplay for everyone that wants to take advantage of it. The only people it wont be benefitting are the inactive people who never make it to 150 structures anyway. So my question is... Who cares?

I really don't understand why you're so against this idea Phil, I really don't. Unless you accidentally knocked over one of your lego buildings as a child and this kind of talk brings back painful memories - your opposition to this suggestion is completely without merit.
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Unread 17 Feb 2008, 19:52   #14
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
afaik, every covert op is already logged and trackable, and it is trivial to automatically check to see if they lower their security prior to a covert op and then raise it again straight after.
its not something that you need to manually check for each one, theres often a telltale pattern.
its just like one of the oldest tricks to determine account sharing. They change the password to something - someone else logs in, and they change the password again after the person is done - often back to the same one.

As for unenforcible - tell that to the multihunters. They can enforce any rule as they see fit.
For such an event, imo they should restore the structure, remove the xp from the covert opper and punish both by removing 5% of value and xp.
When I said it was virtually unenforcable I was going on what multihunters had told me. I'm sure if there were enough people looking through for long enough it would be possible to do. At the moment though it would need someone to look at every single cov-op that was done and check if it looked like it was allowed by the planet and even then it would only be circumstantial evidence. Unless you only want to make it against the rules to do it repeatedly, and then you'd have arguments as to how often counts as "repeatedly". Basically it's not practical to make a rule that both isn't incredibly hard to enforce and doesn't require imposing arbritary limits.
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Unread 18 Feb 2008, 17:31   #15
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Given the actual current situation whereby you can (and yes phil apparently a rule against this is not enforceable) get someone to cov-op off dists/amps or other structures in general I'm really not to argue too much with this suggestion.
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Unread 19 Feb 2008, 12:15   #16
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
If destroying them yourself does become an option ( and certain 'lobbyist' groups sure seem persistant in getting their way despite it being a bad choice )
then again certain groups which dont even play the game anymore are persistent in opposing everything!
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 01:55   #17
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
then again certain groups which dont even play the game anymore are persistent in opposing everything!
Too true.
Being able to destroy our own buildings would be a good thing, just have to find the correct cost (in time and resource).
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 06:33   #18
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
'oh no, i should be allowed to have my fleet instantaneously appear at a targets planet when im attacking them and let it stay there for 50 ticks. Its freedom of choice - i dont like being told i have to wait a few hours before my fleet can arrive'

Freedom of choice is not a reasonable excuse for altering game dynamics. Games have rules, and procedures in order to play them and planetarion is no different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
As for unenforcible - tell that to the multihunters. They can enforce any rule as they see fit.
For such an event, imo they should restore the structure, remove the xp from the covert opper and punish both by removing 5% of value and xp.
'Oh no, I want more rules into the game, otherwise someone might outsmart me and figure out some another innovative way to play. Every retard should be equal and anything endangering this should be removed by rules.'
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Unread 20 Feb 2008, 21:25   #19
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I think the current system is fine, and doesn't need change; if you want your cons removed, get someone to havoc you, and run the risk someone else kills more than you wanted.
i'm with Mz on this. as someone also said, building cons is a strategy. if you allow your cons to be self destroyed, you'll see scanners making 1 factory to build a few ships to defend all round for xp, then destroy it for an amp. same way with disters - they'd build their ships, then sit on 150 distorters until they felt the need to build more ships where they'd then trade out and back again.

this round saw the introduction of that 'quest system' where you could build a research lab and a security centre for some resource, research, and asteroid bonuses. the people that i know that were going hardcore scan or dist planets didn't build those two cons with the end product in mind.

just as when picking a research schedule to follow, you should try to plan out your constructions as to get the most benefit from them.
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Unread 21 Feb 2008, 07:53   #20
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Re: New feature; blow up your own constructions

I'm going to agree with those who say this would not be preferable. On the one hand, on a personal level I understand the wish to remove useless buildings; I have 9 res centers that I used to boost me to be one of the faster on eta-teching and bs-teching early on, but which now sit idly being of litle use. I'd gladly remove them in favor of more factories, amps or dists, but I'm not willing to risk taking out an FC instead.

However, I realize that this is again a trade-off in priorities. Just as I'd gladly pick a government that boosted research early on and then changed to feud for cheap ships later, I realize that there need to be sacrifices for different paths. It helps differentiate between different players. It keeps us from becoming one big gray mass. It's not much, but atleast it's something.
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