User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Planetarion Related Forums > Planetarion Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 10:40   #1
Phil M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
Phil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the rough
The open source idea

After looking at the current development of Planetarion, I'm not entirely sure if that much effort is being put into changes between each round. The current developers do this as a thing in their spare time, so sadly we don't expect much. Most of the changes between rounds are generally minor formula tweaks and occasional improvements. A typical example of this are the ETA changes - a few rounds ago we had cluster ETAs again, now we've back to the old ETAs we had a few rounds ago. Maybe alliances will have 5 more members next round, you get the idea.

One huge problem which has slowed down development is the fact that it's damn difficult for Planetarion to get more help in its current state. Anyone officially working on Planetarion needs to agree to the NDA, which many people dislike. It's also hard for PA team to get coders, they only tend to recruit from the support team which limits who they're getting. I'd guess that many of the most talented coders within the Planetarion community are being wasted, they're just coding for their alliances.

So, here is my idea. Open source Planetarion development.

Anyone can contribute to the development of an open source Planetarion without having to agree to an NDA. The more talented coders could actually contribute something to Planetarion!

Jolt would not need to release any existing source code, the community would start from the ground up with a reworked Planetarion code base without any of the weird bugs or problems. If any of the code isn't up to scratch then it doesn't get added. Think of it as PA:Next done right.

What would PA team do if this happened? The same as always, run the game in the best way possible. If the NDA was modified then their coders could work on the open source code as well. If for some reason they really wanted to add a surprise feature to the game they could quietly fork the code until the start of a round and then submit the changes so everyone else can work on improving them.

Yes, there are some disadvantages to the changes as well, however I'd say it would be more beneficial in the long run for the future of Planetarion. Genuine new features seem to have stopped this round, however the work of many people could bring back new features into the game.

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this?
Phil M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 11:23   #2
Smudge
For Crowly <3
 
Smudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
Smudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The open source idea

one of the main things (in my opinion) thats holding PA back is the fact that its in perl, which not many alliance coders use at the moment. i've been doing some coding for subh during the close round period and they have a couple of decent coders, but (i believe) they only dabble in php. jolt REALLY need to get some form of investment to get PA transformed into php. and yes perl is like php in some ways, but not in other ways.

pa in php along with a modded nda == more developers.
__________________
[14:53:26] * Keiz`afk has joined #support
[14:53:36] <Keiz`afk> THE SMUDGE CHEERLEADING TEAM HAS ARRIVED
Smudge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 12:12   #3
Jester
Pedantic hypocrite
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Back and to the left
Posts: 1,488
Jester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond reputeJester has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
one of the main things (in my opinion) thats holding PA back is the fact that its in perl, which not many alliance coders use at the moment. i've been doing some coding for subh during the close round period and they have a couple of decent coders, but (i believe) they only dabble in php. jolt REALLY need to get some form of investment to get PA transformed into php. and yes perl is like php in some ways, but not in other ways.

pa in php along with a modded nda == more developers.
Pipe. Dream.

Keep in mind that porting it to PHP would require an effort proportional to the amount of effort it took to write the current codebase.
__________________
I always wanted to be a dancer, but I could never get the shit off my shoes
.......
Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 12:33   #4
Phil M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
Phil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

I doubt Jolt are going to pay for anyone to port the entire game over to PHP. This was supposed to happen with PA:Next but it failed. Jolt prefers to stay as far back as possible, it's far easier to let someone make simple modifications with the horrid Perl code than to put many hours of effort into something new.

This would be the perfect opportunity to restart the game in PHP, as such an effort would have to start from scratch.

Yes it is a bit of a pipe dream. I feel that Planetarion development has stalled so badly that it needs a huge infusion of enthusiasm to bring it back as a great game again. Instead of Appocomaster being the one man band for developing the game, there is the potential for many people to contribute to the improvement of Planetarion.
Phil M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 12:35   #5
Mzyxptlk
mz.
Space Invaders Champion, Alien Invasion Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion, Squid Hunter Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Barts Watersports Adventure Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,495
Mzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The open source idea

PA development is doing better (or more at least) than it ever has, to be quite honest.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Mzyxptlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 12:52   #6
GReaper
The BOFH
 
GReaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 463
GReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant future
Re: The open source idea

Interesting idea. Two questions:

- Would jolt support this?
- Would PA Team support this?
GReaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 13:06   #7
Phil^
Insomniac
 
Phil^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,584
Phil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldPhil^ spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
Interesting idea. Two questions:

- Would jolt support this?
Highly unlikely
Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
- Would PA Team support this?
Im not certain, but without the permission of jolt it doesnt matter in the end anyway
__________________
Phil^
Phil^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 14:19   #8
Awake
Asleep.
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Leeds.
Posts: 48
Awake has a spectacular aura aboutAwake has a spectacular aura aboutAwake has a spectacular aura about
Re: The open source idea

While a good idea it would open the flood gates for a million Planetarion clones even worse than the ones that have come before.
__________________
Awake.

Plastic Brilliance
Awake is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 15:07   #9
Phil M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
Phil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

The key point about Planetarion isn't the code, but more about the community which still plays the same game. There are clones already out there, but the problem is that most of these never find enough players. Any idiot could code their own version in a few months, but the main point with this idea is that it improves Planetarion itself.

I'd like to see Planetarion improve, I'd also like to help improve Planetarion. However I don't want to sign an NDA to do this. This seems a decent solution which could allow myself and others to contribute something to help this game.
Phil M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 15:27   #10
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
I'd like to see Planetarion improve, I'd also like to help improve Planetarion. However I don't want to sign an NDA to do this.
Out of interest have you seen the latest version of the NDA? It really isn't that bad and has certainly improved quite a lot this year.
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 15:49   #11
Phil M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
Phil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Out of interest have you seen the latest version of the NDA? It really isn't that bad and has certainly improved quite a lot this year.
If I'm not getting paid for something, not dealing with existing secret code, not dealing with sensitive data, then I don't particularly want to sign an NDA for a voluntary job.

If copyright on all code created were assigned to Jolt, then Jolt would still retain ownership of all code created. It's still possible to please both sides with an open source idea.
Phil M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 16:25   #12
Veil05
Heresy
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 814
Veil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud ofVeil05 has much to be proud of
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
If I'm not getting paid for something, not dealing with existing secret code, not dealing with sensitive data, then I don't particularly want to sign an NDA for a voluntary job.

If copyright on all code created were assigned to Jolt, then Jolt would still retain ownership of all code created. It's still possible to please both sides with an open source idea.
Well really then how eager are you? You know to "help"?
__________________
PEACE.
Veil05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 17:47   #13
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
If I'm not getting paid for something, not dealing with existing secret code, not dealing with sensitive data, then I don't particularly want to sign an NDA for a voluntary job.

If copyright on all code created were assigned to Jolt, then Jolt would still retain ownership of all code created. It's still possible to please both sides with an open source idea.
If you were being paid an NDA wouldn't be needed as everything in the jolt NDA would be covered by the contract of employment. - the purpose of the NDA is to stop unpaid people damaging jolt, which lets be honest anyone with high levels of game admin access, server access, code access etc. has the potential to do.

Another reason for the NDA is so that all the code belongs to jolt
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:28   #14
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,417
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Another reason for the NDA is so that all the code belongs to jolt
I think this is the crux of the issue, and where the open source issue sort of falls dead, assuming by open source Phil M means actual open source, released under GPL 2 or something.

You're asking Jolt to support, as a company, something that allows people to walk along, say "hey, neat game", set up a server, load on the open source code and start what's basically Planetarion. I know Awake mentioned this, but really .... I know there are clones, and some have gone their own way, but it's still a bit of an issue..


If you don't mean open source, but more that people can contribute code to the game, then Jolt are asking you to sign an NDA so you can't say "hey, you've done something that's made me cross, I don't want you using my code any more". It's a legal thing.

Also, you still need to decide the features going into the game - there's no use 3 people coding their own versions of the research tree and then aruging about which one is better.

And who's in charge of bug fixing it all?

Finally, too much change is arguably as bad as none at all. Planetarion, despite the changes since say Round 4, doesn't change a large amount round on round. We usually have something every round or two that's a bit different, and lots of minor changes (and all the arguments about alliance rules, buddy packs, etc), but we don't recode the whole system each round and change everything. That just confuses people and makes them less likely to play. Whilst say the top players can cope, many don't want to have to spend 5 hours talking to people and reading the forums and another 10 in the beta to understand the game before they start playing. If they know that they can go off and come back after a couple of rounds off working or on holiday and still have roughly the same game, they're more likely to play than if they have to re-learn the whole game from scratch.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:34   #15
Mzyxptlk
mz.
Space Invaders Champion, Alien Invasion Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion, Squid Hunter Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Barts Watersports Adventure Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,495
Mzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The open source idea

NDAs have nothing to do with ownership of produced code, by the way.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Mzyxptlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:37   #16
Wandows
[Vision]
 
Wandows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
Wandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond reputeWandows has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I think this is the crux of the issue, and where the open source issue sort of falls dead, assuming by open source Phil M means actual open source, released under GPL 2 or something.

You're asking Jolt to support, as a company, something that allows people to walk along, say "hey, neat game", set up a server, load on the open source code and start what's basically Planetarion. I know Awake mentioned this, but really .... I know there are clones, and some have gone their own way, but it's still a bit of an issue..


If you don't mean open source, but more that people can contribute code to the game, then Jolt are asking you to sign an NDA so you can't say "hey, you've done something that's made me cross, I don't want you using my code any more". It's a legal thing.
This obviously makes sense from a business point of view. But generally a business works both ways, they expect their workers to create/maintain a product of which the company has ownership. And in return the workers get paid for the work they do. Jolt on the other hand seems to think it will all work out fine by only sticking to one side of the agreement: you do all the work, we get all the benefits. And that is where the main problem is for alot of ppl to sign an NDA or perhaps even to work on PA to begin with.

Frankly, despite admiring the work the current PaTeam ppl put in the game, i think they are crazy :/
__________________
[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
Wandows is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:43   #17
Appocomaster
PA Team
 
Appocomaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,417
Appocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldAppocomaster spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
NDAs have nothing to do with ownership of produced code, by the way.
Generally, no.
The NDA you sign has something stating that things you produce for Planetarion belong to Jolt, and are Jolts if/when you cancel the NDA though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Frankly, despite admiring the work the current PaTeam ppl put in the game, i think they are crazy :/
I know I'm lacking a bit in the sanity area sometimes, but if the game is to be played, it needs to be there to be played.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Appocomaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:45   #18
Phil M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
Phil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
If you were being paid an NDA wouldn't be needed as everything in the jolt NDA would be covered by the contract of employment. - the purpose of the NDA is to stop unpaid people damaging jolt, which lets be honest anyone with high levels of game admin access, server access, code access etc. has the potential to do.

Another reason for the NDA is so that all the code belongs to jolt
These are some of the reasons why I thought my idea would be logical.

If it starts from scratch then it isn't existing Jolt code, so there is nothing to access there. If the coders were seperate from PA Team then they wouldn't get game access or server access. If such a project required all contributors to assign copyright to Jolt then they'd still own the code, you don't need an NDA to transfer copyright.
Phil M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:46   #19
Marv
Jazz Man
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,494
Marv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Out of interest have you seen the latest version of the NDA? It really isn't that bad and has certainly improved quite a lot this year.
He tells the truth.

Really, the only thing it doesn't allow you to do is to work for a competitor to Planetarion for 6 months after your NDA termination.

The rest is stuff that's simple command sense, such as;

-Don't give out peoples personal information if your given access to the accounts db info.
-Don't go leaking game development / new code / current code if given access to it.

That's basically all it limits you from doing. In a sense it's basically a piece of paper covering them if you don't apply an ounce of common sense when dealing with sensitive information behind the game.

It doesn't actually prevent you from doing anything you currently do unless you work for a competitor of the game as said above, but if you did, why do you want to work for this one in the first place anyway?

I think the main issue is an overly large amount of paranoia with these things, people thinking they sign their soul away (joking apart Appoco :P). Before I signed mine I took mine to a lawyer down the road to have a look, it was so short (about a page) that he read it for free.

Working on Planetarion no matter what capacity your role takes is, while tiring at times, quite a rewarding thing when it all comes together and works (much like most things in life).

I reckon people should try to get past this tiny mole hill which is being made a mountain of and try to help out all they can if they want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
I'd like to see Planetarion improve, I'd also like to help improve Planetarion. However I don't want to sign an NDA to do this.
I do hope you've read it in full before you made that comment.

Secondly, does it not occur to you why the NDA has to be in place? It's not Jolt trying to make life difficult, it's also to stop you (or anyone else) coding a feature of the game, getting it implemented then turning around and saying "actually, I don't want you to use it any more, give it back" and then you suing Jolt for nicking your code.

It's for the same reason that "mind the gap" stickers appear on train platforms, to stop you suing them when you're a retard and fall down the gap.

If everyone tries to get past their phobia of a short 1 page document that I doubt half of you have actually read, you might see it's not that scary and perfectly suitable for its needs.
__________________
Marv

Ex ROCK HC & PA Team Head of Support.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:48   #20
Mzyxptlk
mz.
Space Invaders Champion, Alien Invasion Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion, Squid Hunter Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Barts Watersports Adventure Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,495
Mzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldMzyxptlk spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The open source idea

Where can we find said document? I think it used to be on the portal, but I don't think that's up yet.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Mzyxptlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:53   #21
Monroe
Planetarion Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,289
Monroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud of
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Frankly, despite admiring the work the current PaTeam ppl put in the game, i think they are crazy :/
I agree with Wandows 100%. Jolt is a for profit company and by extension so is PA. Why the PA Team continues to do tons of hard work for Jolt for little or no pay can in my opinion only be attributed to a love for the game and a desire to keep it alive. I can't understand what else would motivate them to work so hard and take so much flak from the players and still stay at it. So while I totally understand where Phil is coming from, and in some regards I feel what he proposes would be the best thing for PA, I don't see how it would fit into Jolt's plan for PA. So while admirable in concept, I'm afraid it's never going to happen Phil, at least not as long as Jolt owns PA and continues its current "policies" towards PA. Sad but true unfortunately.
__________________
Romans 10:9-10

#strategy
Monroe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 18:58   #22
Kal
Inactive peon
 
Kal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
Kal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant futureKal has a brilliant future
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Where can we find said document? I think it used to be on the portal, but I don't think that's up yet.
http://www.planetarion.com/PlanetarionNDA.pdf
__________________
Kal

Round 6-10 NoS member-->NoS junior HC
Round 10.5 FAnG member
Round 11-15 PATeam
Round 17-30 PATeam
Round 31 ???

Check out toastmonster.com for crazy illustrations and art
Kal is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 19:16   #23
Phil M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
Phil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I think this is the crux of the issue, and where the open source issue sort of falls dead, assuming by open source Phil M means actual open source, released under GPL 2 or something.
An open source license of some sort with the copyrights assigned to Jolt. Could be GPL2, could be something else varying on what restrictions are needed.

By owning the copyright a version could be released this month under that license, Jolt could cease open source development and continue things as before. The released version would still have the same license, but by owning the copyright they don't need to seek the permission of all contributors to do what they want with the code (sell, etc.).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
You're asking Jolt to support, as a company, something that allows people to walk along, say "hey, neat game", set up a server, load on the open source code and start what's basically Planetarion. I know Awake mentioned this, but really .... I know there are clones, and some have gone their own way, but it's still a bit of an issue..
Jolt do nearly the same thing with all other game servers? Doesn't stop them making a business out of it.

If we go back say 5 years ago I'd agree with you, keeping developed code like this would be highly valuable with hardly any clones out. However I'd hardly say that Planetarion is cutting edge gaming anymore. Anyone with a small amount of time could knock out their own clone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Also, you still need to decide the features going into the game - there's no use 3 people coding their own versions of the research tree and then aruging about which one is better.
I'm sure whoever organises it would have the common sense to manage other people effectively.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
And who's in charge of bug fixing it all?
Any coder willing to do so. This could even be a member of PA Team finding a bug and submitting a patch.
Phil M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 20:09   #24
Smudge
For Crowly <3
 
Smudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
Smudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appoco
You're asking Jolt to support, as a company, something that allows people to walk along, say "hey, neat game", set up a server, load on the open source code and start what's basically Planetarion. I know Awake mentioned this, but really .... I know there are clones, and some have gone their own way, but it's still a bit of an issue..
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilM
The key point about Planetarion isn't the code, but more about the community which still plays the same game.
The arguement for clones being set up etc is a null and void arguement in my eyes. Clone games can be easily made / searched for on google (hell, I've even made a clone) and hosted. The fact is if Smudgetarion started up tomorrow, what user base would I have? How would I be able to compete against PA? Answer - I wouldn't.
__________________
[14:53:26] * Keiz`afk has joined #support
[14:53:36] <Keiz`afk> THE SMUDGE CHEERLEADING TEAM HAS ARRIVED
Smudge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 23:33   #25
wakey
Hamster
 
wakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
wakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
The arguement for clones being set up etc is a null and void arguement in my eyes. Clone games can be easily made / searched for on google (hell, I've even made a clone) and hosted. The fact is if Smudgetarion started up tomorrow, what user base would I have? How would I be able to compete against PA? Answer - I wouldn't.
There's a difference between a 'Smudetarion' being started that's coded from scratch and their being an Open source version of the actual code open for anyone to take and use. It wouldnt be some cheap knockoff but THE ACTUAL GAME which others if they wished could be offered for cheaper amount or even free by someone who doesnt have business concerns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
Open Source Idea
Despite what the open source movement would like people to think its not infallable model. While it works for some projects, its not really suitable for others. I dont personally believe that an MMO is one that falls into it. For starters coding of it isnt ongoing as such and the additions are time sensitive. Then secondary you have the fact that its fine having tens of open source programmers working on different things but the more people involved the more chance of problems, features after all arent isolated, you add one new thing or change the way something works and it changes alot of other things. You cant have people working on something willynilly as their feat ures may not be compatable or may require other changes in others code, or if one person fails to deliver it can null and void a whole development branch. Thirdly you make staying ahead of competitors hard as your competators are potentially running the same code as yourself. And finally its the possability of cheating with additions or being able to notice and abuse loopholes in the code, which in a mmo is a major issue as your abuse screws over real people your playing with.


An MMO is better developed by a tighter, smaller and more controlled group than anyone who wants to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
...
As for Wandows comments, they are extramly misguided and seem like just a way to cluelessly bash jolt . Its fine saying "business works both ways with people working for the business and getting paid in return" but your basing that on a proper business. Something which if PA was a proper business wouldnt exists as it makes no where near enough for it to be worthwhile and make a positive contribution to Jolts accounts.

Take the role myself and the other mods do here on the forums.One of the old F-crew HC did almost the exact job we do commercially, working for a company that supplied forum moderation for organisations like the BBC. He was on around 12-14kpa. Based on 2.5k people paying 3.33 to play the game PA has a gross revenue of 8325. You can get maybe 4 rounds in a year so thats 33k before you take out transaction costs, server costs, bandwidth costs ect ect (Yes people will state "Jolt already pay for the servers and bandwidth ect ect even if PA isnt there but from an accounts pov that doesnt matter, while the product is there it is expected to rake on a share of the fixed costs that jolt has)

As such the forum mods themselves would eat up all the profit in wages, lets alone PATeam, Coders and the various other staff. Even if you only paid coders and they were working part time you wouldnt get many coders hired for the profit made and by that point any chance of the PA part of jolts business making a positive contribution is out of the window and hence isn't worthwhile keeping running.
__________________
Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
Co-founder of [F-Crew]
The Farnborough Crew
Cos anything else is just an alliance
Join our public channel at #f-crew

Last edited by wakey; 29 Aug 2007 at 23:39.
wakey is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 23:40   #26
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: The open source idea

The reason why I didn't sign the NDA when invited to the PAN development group remains in place.

Quote:
2.4 Furthermore the individual shall not make any public comments or derogatory remarks regarding Jolt & Planetarion or any current or former employees or officers of Jolt & Planetarion or current or former clients of Jolt.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 23:50   #27
Awake
Asleep.
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Leeds.
Posts: 48
Awake has a spectacular aura aboutAwake has a spectacular aura aboutAwake has a spectacular aura about
Re: The open source idea

Yes but there is a difference between being a twat and calling something shit (derogatory) and giving constructive criticism.

People who work in call centres don't slag off the company they work for or their clients over the phone. Why should you be allowed access into developing the game and be allowed to slag it and the people off who you're doing it for in public as well?
__________________
Awake.

Plastic Brilliance
Awake is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 29 Aug 2007, 23:59   #28
Awake
Asleep.
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Leeds.
Posts: 48
Awake has a spectacular aura aboutAwake has a spectacular aura aboutAwake has a spectacular aura about
Re: The open source idea

Calling people tossers and telling them they're ideas are shit is what private forums / channels are for, which I assume you get access to once you're in.

You don't go doing it in public which is what that clause is about.
__________________
Awake.

Plastic Brilliance
Awake is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 00:12   #29
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awake
Yes but there is a difference between being a twat and calling something shit (derogatory) and giving constructive criticism.

People who work in call centres don't slag off the company they work for or their clients over the phone. Why should you be allowed access into developing the game and be allowed to slag it and the people off who you're doing it for in public as well?

But if you're not part of PA Team? If you have no such access?



It's just too restrictive for people to sign if they're not part of PA Team.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 00:19   #30
Aryn
Happy
 
Aryn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,782
Aryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The open source idea

is it really that hard to hold your tongue? and is that really the only reason you didn't sign it?
__________________
Where ever you go, there you are.
Aryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 00:23   #31
Marv
Jazz Man
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,494
Marv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
But if you're not part of PA Team? If you have no such access?
You clearly have no idea how it works.

For example, a coder, not in PA Team will get access to the code. Depending on the job / role you fulfil will depend on what you get access too. Plus, if your working in a team with people who have different access you want them to all be able to discusses things from a central focus with out all the mess off "oo we can't say that here because so n so hasn't signed the nda so we can't tell him / her that, so really it's pointless him / her being here even though they could give a valid contribution."

The NDA isn't just a clearance so you can get access to buttons. It's information of a potentially sensitive nature that you might come across / be exposed to that it covers as well.
__________________
Marv

Ex ROCK HC & PA Team Head of Support.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 00:25   #32
Marv
Jazz Man
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,494
Marv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

Plus if the only reason you didn't sign the NDA was because you want to reserve the right to be rude in public towards those doing the work then you don't deserve to be on on such a program / project anyway to be quite frank.
__________________
Marv

Ex ROCK HC & PA Team Head of Support.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 00:29   #33
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: The open source idea

Marv, don't be a patronising idiot. I completely understand how an NDA works and why it's needed for people who work with the code. However, people in the past have been asked to sign the NDA for positions that aren't part of PA Team nor have access to the code.


I was one of those people asked to do so. I saw no reason to sign something that curtailed my speech across all of the forums on any issue to do with Planetarion (not just regarding PAN development). The NDA does not need to be as wide-ranging as it is for people in non-PA Team/coding positions, and in fact I suggested to Appocomaster at the time a number of amendments that would make me willing to sign it. Suffice it to say that Jolt were not willing to budge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
Plus if the only reason you didn't sign the NDA was because you want to reserve the right to be rude in public towards those doing the work then you don't deserve to be on on such a program / project anyway to be quite frank.
Way to go Marv in manipulating what I said. I had a lengthy conversation via pm with Appoco where I carefully outlined why I wasn't happy with it. Jolt claim that it's just there to stop people using inside information as leverage against them, yet that's not what it says at all - and in fact, Section 1.1 (confidential information) will do that just fine.

To quote from me at the time:

Quote:
I'll attempt to illustrate why I am opposed to Section 2.1:

Let's say that I was unhappy with a change made in the current round of Planetarion, e.g. the recent rule change made with respect to support planets. Under Section 2.1, I would be unable to criticise PA-Team (Planetarion) nor Jolt if they came to defend the actions of PA-Team. I find that unacceptable.


I am willing to come up with an alternative Section 2.1 that isn't as wide-ranging. But I will not sign the Waiver as it is.
(what was section 2.1 then is now section 2.4)



I would add to this post the responses of Appocomaster and biffy, but I'd rather have their permission to do so first.
__________________
Finally free!

Last edited by furball; 30 Aug 2007 at 00:37.
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 00:37   #34
Marv
Jazz Man
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,494
Marv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

So you think that people should be allowed to be involved with development of the game & be allowed to broadcast it as they so wish? While at the same time allowed to be rude towards people on the forums?

Sorry mate but pull your head out of your arse and get real. PAN was a project to radically change Planetarion on a longer term scale. All clause 2.4 does is stop you from publically criticise and put down something you are involved with.

It doesn't stop you calling the alliance you don't like crap or the people you think make shit posts tossers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Marv, don't be a patronising idiot. I completely understand how an NDA works and why it's needed for people who work with the code.
I wasn't referring to how the NDA works, I was referring to how access / information is dished out with in the system. Which one of us as seen and experienced the other hasn't, mmk?

Just because you're not in PA Team or a coder doesn't mean you're not going to be privy to information the team / Jolt want kept under wraps until such time as it's released.

Plus I stand by the point if you won't sign it just based on 2.4 as you stated in your initial post above, you really have some sort of knob head complex you need to resolve.
__________________
Marv

Ex ROCK HC & PA Team Head of Support.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 00:52   #35
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: The open source idea

I edited my post, doubt you saw it before making yours. Have a read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
So you think that people should be allowed to be involved with development of the game & be allowed to broadcast it as they so wish? While at the same time allowed to be rude towards people on the forums?
Never said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
Sorry mate but pull your head out of your arse and get real. PAN was a project to radically change Planetarion on a longer term scale. All clause 2.4 does is stop you from publically criticise and put down something you are involved with.
No, it doesn't. It stops signees from making "any public comments or derogatory remarks regarding Jolt & Planetarion or any current or former employees or officers of Jolt & Planetarion or current or former clients of Jolt."

If the NDA was just there to stop you from using confidential information against them, there would be no need for section 2.4 as section 1.1 does the job perfectly well.

Quote:
1.1 The individual shall not disclose or permit to be disclosed without the prior consent of Jolt any confidential information, trade secrets or proprietary data concerning the practice, business dealings or affairs of Jolt or the game Planetarion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
It doesn't stop you calling the alliance you don't like crap or the people you think make shit posts tossers.
No, but it would stop me from criticising something like multihunter actions or the support planet rule.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
I wasn't referring to how the NDA works, I was referring to how access / information is dished out with in the system. Which one of us as seen and experienced the other hasn't, mmk?

Just because you're not in PA Team or a coder doesn't mean you're not going to be privy to information the team / Jolt want kept under wraps until such time as it's released.
And I made clear at all times that I'd be more than happy to abide by such rules.

My suggested amendment was as such:

Quote:
I thus propose an amended Section 2.1, to read:
2.1.1 The individual shall not make any derogatory remarks regarding Planetarion: NEXT.
2.1.2 The individual shall not make any derogatory remarks regarding any current or former employees or officers of Jolt & Planetarion or current or former clients of Jolt, where said remarks are in any way related to Planetarion: NEXT.

So yeah, big bad furball who wants to leak all the information and say nasty things about PAN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
Plus I stand by the point if you won't sign it just based on 2.4 as you stated in your initial post above, you really have some sort of self love complex you need to resolve.
I've made over 5000 posts on these forums with a majority of them about Planetarion-related issues. I didn't, and still don't see any reason to give up my ability to post freely on issues that I'm not specifically involved with.


Of course, a couple of months later I was invited to the mods team and there are numerous unwritten rules to obey if you're a mod - but those don't involve Jolt potentially suing you for damages if you breach them
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 01:12   #36
Marv
Jazz Man
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,494
Marv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

So why, when you have all that explanation & reason behind your decision, make such an obnoxious post initially?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The reason why I didn't sign the NDA when invited to the PAN development group remains in place.

Quote:
2.4 Furthermore the individual shall not make any public comments or derogatory remarks regarding Jolt & Planetarion or any current or former employees or officers of Jolt & Planetarion or current or former clients of Jolt.
All it does it make you look a toss pot who wont do something unless he can say what he wants when he wants about whatever he likes? Hence my argument against you which you've now explained yourself for.
__________________
Marv

Ex ROCK HC & PA Team Head of Support.

Last edited by Marv; 30 Aug 2007 at 01:50. Reason: Removed a line & put the edit text in the right place :p
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 01:17   #37
GReaper
The BOFH
 
GReaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 463
GReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant futureGReaper has a brilliant future
Re: The open source idea

An idea like this could work if a few people got together and worked on it, however once the clone is at a point where it's nearly identical to Planetarion - what happens next? New features would have to be added by PA Team as they're the ones with an idea of the direction to take. A bunch of random coders could add features they feel the game needs but neither the public or PA Team want.

I'm surprised that there aren't that many other Perl programmers working on the game. I know it's a bit of an old language and not flavour of the month like PHP or Python, but it's a fairly solid language which PHP developers should be able to get to grips with. Add mod_perl and you've got a highly flexible programming language highly integrated into the web server.

I'd say the game needs more Perl programmers, not an open source movement!
GReaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 01:18   #38
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
So why, when you have all that explanation & reason behind your decision, make such an obnoxious post initially?
I'm not Wakey, I don't write it all out first-time round and risk people just saying tl;dr
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 01:19   #39
Marv
Jazz Man
 
Marv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,494
Marv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the roughMarv is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'm not Wakey, I don't write it all out first-time round and risk people just saying tl;dr
lol fair doos then :P
__________________
Marv

Ex ROCK HC & PA Team Head of Support.
Marv is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 04:13   #40
Travler
Bona Fide Jesus Freak
 
Travler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In the Word of the Lord
Posts: 765
Travler is a name known to allTravler is a name known to allTravler is a name known to allTravler is a name known to allTravler is a name known to allTravler is a name known to all
Re: The open source idea

We are lucky that Jolt still allows this game to run. It does not make much of a profit and the majority of the people working on the game are doing it out of pure love for the game and the community.

Maybe some of you will remember why PA was sold to Jolt in the first place. Spinner and CO. could no longer afford to pay to keep the game running and Jolt provided more server space for code and database. The downside was that pay to play started but in general the upside is less frequent downtimes and fast recovery when there is a total failure.

You want to help out with coding then sign the NDA and get typing. You want to get paid then you better look elsewhere. If you want total control over PA then buy it away from Jolt. I am sure they would be more than willing to sell it for the right price.
__________________
Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

CT R22-20, [1up] R18-16, TGV R15,
The Illuminati - [NoS] - R14-13
Travler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 10:37   #41
Smudge
For Crowly <3
 
Smudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
Smudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond reputeSmudge has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
There's a difference between a 'Smudetarion' being started that's coded from scratch and their being an Open source version of the actual code open for anyone to take and use. It wouldnt be some cheap knockoff but THE ACTUAL GAME which others if they wished could be offered for cheaper amount or even free by someone who doesnt have business concerns
its SMUDGETARION you fool! there's a g in it!
__________________
[14:53:26] * Keiz`afk has joined #support
[14:53:36] <Keiz`afk> THE SMUDGE CHEERLEADING TEAM HAS ARRIVED
Smudge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 10:40   #42
Influence
Finally retired
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Influence is a splendid one to beholdInfluence is a splendid one to beholdInfluence is a splendid one to beholdInfluence is a splendid one to beholdInfluence is a splendid one to beholdInfluence is a splendid one to beholdInfluence is a splendid one to beholdInfluence is a splendid one to behold
Re: The open source idea

what i dislike about the NDA or you lot is the lack of understanding that
Quote:
2.4 Furthermore the individual shall not make any public comments or derogatory remarks regarding Jolt & Planetarion or any current or former employees or officers of Jolt & Planetarion or current or former clients of Jolt.
clients of Jolt include PA Players. and if you can't even say anything bad about those anymore...

i wonder if the multihunters had to sign this NDA...

if so the word cheaters should never come out of their mouth as it is pretty derogatory to me.
__________________
don't be an arse, join [TiT]

In the absence of the good old TiT alliance, look me up in VGN
Influence is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 10:43   #43
Monroe
Planetarion Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,289
Monroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud ofMonroe has much to be proud of
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
If you want total control over PA then buy it away from Jolt. I am sure they would be more than willing to sell it for the right price.
I've thought about doing this, I just don't think my wife would approve. :-p

But otherwise I agree with Travler completely, if you want to help sign the NDA and volunteer your time. Me I can't code worth crap, and the PA NDA might theoretically conflict with my other professional NDAs if I signed it, so I have to stay out of direct development. But for the rest of you, go sign the NDA, perhaps learn to be more careful about how you word your criticism of PA (which can allow you to circumvent the 'restricted speech' part of the NDA) and help the community.
__________________
Romans 10:9-10

#strategy
Monroe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 10:49   #44
Mistwraith
Bad Girl
 
Mistwraith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: right here..right now
Posts: 1,054
Mistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud ofMistwraith has much to be proud of
Re: The open source idea

i have to agree with furball on clause 2.4, its signing away your right to free speech !

example : as soon as someone says openly .. *i hate so and so* they have broken the NDA. (after all, within any work place theres going to be collegues we dont like, thats life)

clause 2.4 needs a clearer definition, and a bit of sanity, i wouldnt personally sign it with 2.4 in place.
__________________
R1 - noob
R2,3,4, - ICD | R5 -ICD HC |R6 - HR Command | R7 - HR Command/NoS
R8,9,9.5,- HR HC /NoS Exec | R10 - HR HC | R10.5 - HR HC (FYTFO with LCH)
R11 -> NOW HR HC
(a round history not condusive to suceeding in exams, having a life or much sleep )
I'm not misunderstood ... I'm EVIL
Mistwraith is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 12:24   #45
wakey
Hamster
 
wakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
wakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himwakey is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
We are lucky that Jolt still allows this game to run. It does not make much of a profit and the majority of the people working on the game are doing it out of pure love for the game and the community. .
I think that the fact it doesn't make too much profit is part of the reason that there's so much hate towards Jolt. When Jolt bought PA they made alot of promises based on the belief that they could get the playerbase backup significantly and quickly thus allowing them to make a good profit from it.

Despite the investment initially that didn't happen which meant that alot of the promises never bore fruit as it just wasn't financially viable. If they had been more realistic with their goals they would have probably all been met and we would have all been more satisfied.

The second problem is connected, when the community got annoyed with promises not being met and voiced their concern Jolt decided not to explain themselves. An honest response would have probably gone down well, the response we got were bans on people, requests to the mods to have people censored ect ect as they believed that a forums that seemed completely happy was a better marketing tool than issues being raised and then answered openly and honestly. Their choice seemed to backfire and built up the rep that Jolt are "money grabbers who dont care"
__________________
Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
Co-founder of [F-Crew]
The Farnborough Crew
Cos anything else is just an alliance
Join our public channel at #f-crew
wakey is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 14:50   #46
carld
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21
carld is on a distinguished road
Re: The open source idea

Perl in and of itself is a simple, robust, and easy to learn language. Its incredibly similar to PHP in many ways, and many programmers could easily transition over to Perl. Regardless of its similarities though, any half-decent programmer can program in any language. Once you understand the concepts and principles of programming, it is strictly a matter of syntax to get the desired result in the language you choose.

While I'd like to see Planetarion's code become publicly available so that we could help fix all the glitches and bugs with the code, along with adding in necessary features, I can completely understand the necessity of keeping the code closed source. There just needs to be more incentive provided to the people who will step up and give their free time and energy to better the game for Jolt and its customers.
carld is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 15:34   #47
Phil M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
Phil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the roughPhil M is a jewel in the rough
Re: The open source idea

How does a programmer who doesn't have any interest in joining the support team get noticed by PA Team? This is another one of the reasons for my idea, there is very little recruitment for staff so there is very little improvement in the game. It would've given many other people the opportunity to help.

Nearly all of the interesting positions within Planetarion aren't advertised, you only tend to recruit from the support team. People in this thread have suggested that the NDA isn't that bad, and that we should all do our bit for Planetarion. How do you contribute something to people who don't seem to want help?
Phil M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 17:10   #48
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Maybe some of you will remember why PA was sold to Jolt in the first place. Spinner and CO. could no longer afford to pay to keep the game running and Jolt provided more server space for code and database. The downside was that pay to play started but in general the upside is less frequent downtimes and fast recovery when there is a total failure.
Actually, pay to play was already in place when Jolt took over - it was introduced in Round 5 and Jolt only took over in Round 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
what i dislike about the NDA or you lot is the lack of understanding that


clients of Jolt include PA Players. and if you can't even say anything bad about those anymore...

i wonder if the multihunters had to sign this NDA...

if so the word cheaters should never come out of their mouth as it is pretty derogatory to me.
By 'clients' they mean the other games that Jolt run, not the players themselves.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 18:26   #49
Allfather
The PropaGhandi
 
Allfather's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 796
Allfather is infamous around these partsAllfather is infamous around these partsAllfather is infamous around these partsAllfather is infamous around these partsAllfather is infamous around these partsAllfather is infamous around these parts
Re: The open source idea

Still bugs me they sold it to Jolt and not to Hinch
__________________
Free imagehosting: Link
Free scans: #transcendancy

<Deffeh> I just told my parents im a homosexual, now they kicked me out
Allfather is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Aug 2007, 18:40   #50
Aryn
Happy
 
Aryn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,782
Aryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond reputeAryn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The open source idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
How does a programmer who doesn't have any interest in joining the support team get noticed by PA Team? This is another one of the reasons for my idea, there is very little recruitment for staff so there is very little improvement in the game. It would've given many other people the opportunity to help.

Nearly all of the interesting positions within Planetarion aren't advertised, you only tend to recruit from the support team. People in this thread have suggested that the NDA isn't that bad, and that we should all do our bit for Planetarion. How do you contribute something to people who don't seem to want help?
if a programmer wants to help they can just send an email to appocomaster to make him aware of your willingness to help out. same as if you wanted to try multihunting you'd talk to fiery, or if you were interested in the forums you'd talk to kal. PA can always use help in one way or another.
__________________
Where ever you go, there you are.
Aryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2002 - 2018