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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 21:39   #51
Veedeejem!
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What the hell is your point?
The point is that Red- wants to transform pa into a new game:
LOVEatarion

The object of this game is quite simple, there are no alliances, no fighting, no buildings, no unfairness, no nothing.
All you can do is send a lovemail to somebody and then he'll go up in the rankings. The more mails you get the higher you are
No more testing activity, it'll be a true test of popularity (though i doubt he'll do much better at it)
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 22:31   #52
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Mutlis where killing PA and now you lot want to reintroduce it???

Seems about as dumb as it gets.

Veedeejem - you just scored 10 out 10 possible on llamah'o'meter
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Unread 12 Jul 2007, 23:36   #53
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Re: Make Multying Legal

What's your basis for being against multies Red-, apart from the "omg multies are bad!!!!" view that has been instilled in us all over time?
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 07:44   #54
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Red-
Veedeejem - you just scored 10 out 10 possible on llamah'o'meter
No, i think that right is reserved for you and you alone.

Want me to go get you some crayons?
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 07:51   #55
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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LOVEatarion
Will naked women be allowed in galbanners of this new game?

If so, I'm all in. There's too little love on the internet. I well...
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Unread 13 Jul 2007, 08:25   #56
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Will naked women be allowed in galbanners of this new game?

If so, I'm all in. There's too little love on the internet. I well...
You're right that there isn't enough love on the internet, on the other hand though it's full of naked women...
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 11:27   #57
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Re: Make Multying Legal

There are lots of theories people have in PA.

1. That players who have more than one planet are bad.
2. That having more than one planet is bad.
3. That the game is thought to be skill based, and 1 and 2 are part of that.
4. The game design consistently aims to eliminate methods of play, for some mythical method that leaves the whole player base facing off the MHs any time anyone does anything innovative.

I have said in my postings that PA should allow everything, and I've always meant it. If you don't want someone doing something, then code it out of the game.

In terms of players having more than one planet, so what? So Long as I can have more than one planet, the game actually becomes a space game about empires, instead of worlds. Its fair because everyone has the same rules.

As for farming, yes players could do it, why not? I personally would look at building fleets on each planet, and taking it that route. Each player to their own.

If PA continues down the current road, where the support planet rule gets twisted, and yet again, the bottom line is you have a none innovative game, based along very limited, structured game play, fine. But don't be shocked if this limited based browser game continues to have declining numbers.

In most cases, where opening the game up to new game play, it has resulted in good things. Alliances, more races, I only wish people would see a more open game that allowed innovative play as being a good thing.

And bottom line, the buy with 20 planets who puts the hours in deserves to win, in a game where everyone can have 20 planets if they wish. And the alliances that have 70 guys who have 20 planets each who work their ass of are in the same boat. So long as its a level playing field.

For people like me, I can make 5 planets, and still have fun, I can't win the game today, I would not win the game in the above type game. But then I never was playing to win.

The other thing is that multying and the whole bullcrap that surrounds it would go away. If people can have planets and its all dealt with under one login, a lot of intrinsic basic problems go way. You get to actually see what players are doing, as its more transparent.

You may even finally do away with the STUPID proxy and MH coverage that stops me inviting friends and family from playing the game (Because they are usually on the same IPs, and what is the point in having family and friends in a game where you can't interact with them....)

Anyway, as usual, I will have the abuse for daring to argue in favour of 'farming', or rather a more expansive game where anything you can do in the game is legal.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 11:50   #58
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Re: Make Multying Legal

what you call innovation, others call cheating, or working around the rules.... not arguing the right or wrong here, just pointing out that most people who cheat, always try to rub it off as innovative thinking or being clever when end of the day, they are cheating pieces of dogshit.

and you can have family members play this game. all you have to do is apply for an exception

and by the way, do you think new players will stick around, while they struggle to learn how to play 1 planet, when some jackass comes along withe their 5-10 planet and bashes them to death?

and if you need to farm, that generally means your too much of a wuss to properly roid planets
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:02   #59
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by angryduck
what you call innovation, others call cheating, or working around the rules.... not arguing the right or wrong here
But what he's calling for is changing the rules. I think making having multiple planets possible on a very small scale could be productive for the game. Having the bonuses of more planets, roids and targets in the universe is great for the game if we can set up these new multiple planets so they can't be used for "bashing" as you describe above.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:10   #60
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by wakey
What has your reply got to do with the part of my post you quoted?

While Winning == Success, Success != Winning and people need to actually realise this

Multing does give you an advantage and I don't think theres any denying that and while it doesnt guarantee a win there is a benefit so for those able to manage them well they have a massive step up

And you say no-one forces you to have multiple accounts if everyone else has them you will be starting at a disadvantage befire you even start

How about the fact that this happens Right Now when players only have a single account?

As such its a pretty solid theory to take that when players have accounts that arent good they will get bored of them and not bother to play them
Thus the myth that multi's are bad in the game gets handed down through the generations.

If everyone can have as many planets as they wish, and use them in whatever innovative method they can, then its a level playing field.

The Myth that by limiting planets, or fleets, or anything else offsets hard work, is just bullcrap. A player who hardly logs in in the game with one planet or ten planets, is going to do less well than the guy who puts in days and days of work in his round.

So I will say it again. Instead of the artificial, and in this round sometimes illogical attempts at setting rules, the game needs to be so that what you can do IN game is allowed, even encouraged, or coded out.

And BY getting rid of the LAME IP issues, proxy not allowed, no friends and family, we can go back to having people we know playing in game. Multi-hunting and all the baggage that comes with it, is detrimental to the game overall, even if it pleases some who think a very limited game, with arcane rulings is the way forward.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:11   #61
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Re: Make Multying Legal

if you set them up so they can't be used for bashing, then you'll have to apply more rules to them..... also, what your going to see is it harder to land attacks, with ppl obviously setting up defense fleet planets, maybe a scan planet etc, hell in theory one could support himself galaxy style, with a bp of his own planets....

my example ofcourse is the worst extreme, and a stretch probably...what I'm saying is, allowing multi planets is a can of worms we really don't want the admin folks to have to be responsible to police, they can't police what we have now
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:18   #62
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
if you set them up so they can't be used for bashing, then you'll have to apply more rules to them..... also, what your going to see is it harder to land attacks, with ppl obviously setting up defense fleet planets, maybe a scan planet etc, hell in theory one could support himself galaxy style, with a bp of his own planets....
You can take a few approaches. Hardcode out interactions. Your other planet x.y.z is already defending/attacking these co-ords, you cannot send your fleet because of this. You can't bp with yourself either etc etc. Or you can set it up ingame so it's just not viable for a long time or if it is it comes at a cost to your planet (see the idea I posted earlier).

Quote:
my example ofcourse is the worst extreme, and a stretch probably...what I'm saying is, allowing multi planets is a can of worms we really don't want the admin folks to have to be responsible to police, they can't police what we have now
They can't police what we have now because the rules we have don't make sense. Nor would my proposals above require additional multihunting, they'd require code modifications.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:21   #63
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Re: Make Multying Legal

well it would certainly be a way for kal to push alliances out... no way an alliance is going to be able to control x amount of players times x amount of planets. there just isn't enough quality HC ppl to go around to effectively control members responsible for that many planets
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:21   #64
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
what you call innovation, others call cheating, or working around the rules.... not arguing the right or wrong here, just pointing out that most people who cheat, always try to rub it off as innovative thinking or being clever when end of the day, they are cheating pieces of dogshit.

and you can have family members play this game. all you have to do is apply for an exception

and by the way, do you think new players will stick around, while they struggle to learn how to play 1 planet, when some jackass comes along withe their 5-10 planet and bashes them to death?

and if you need to farm, that generally means your too much of a wuss to properly roid planets
To take your point in hand.
The cheating claim is one that comes from the Multi issue. Please understand, If I have 5 planets, and you can have 5 planets, neither of us is a cheat. If you send your 5 planets fleets at me, more fool you, that has an obvious up and down side, and BESIDES, bash limits are set in game already (25% max roid cap) and could be set to handle any issue, and should be.

The second point you made about friends and family. Yes. I can get an exception, and we are not allowed to interact. Some of your regretably don't seem to actually understand that if I said to your and your long term PA friends, you can no longer interact, it might see people leave the game. Having a game where your friends, family, or work collegues can join, but you can't actually play together is painfully braindead. And makes recruiting people into PA harder. Do you people want a growing innovative game, or do you want a tiny pool where old timers can play in small numbers in a non innovative game going no where.

Struggling to learn to play. Well, you see, if I can show and work together with friends, family, collegues, you get new blood, and people showing each other how to play.

To take your other point, anyone running 5 planets bashing single planets seems to be wasting res and time, and would not be very logical. In the more expansive game, they'd be busy having to do/handle other problems, don;t you think?

As for being a wuss, as a player who tends not to get allied up in most rounds, I think I get to see the game from one angle some of you alliance folk do not. Having more planets means when you come to bash my 1 planet, I have the option of more. Ones you may not know much about.

Unlike now, where any large player, gal or alliance can come and wipe out my whole game, or even whole ROUND in one night.

On a last note, more planets, more fleets, more action. Sounds good to me.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:28   #65
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
well it would certainly be a way for kal to push alliances out... no way an alliance is going to be able to control x amount of players times x amount of planets. there just isn't enough quality HC ppl to go around to effectively control members responsible for that many planets
I don't think changing the way alliances exist ingame is necessarily a bad thing. Alliances will still always exist, the very nature of a multiplayer war game is that you co-operate with some people to fight other people. Quite frankly it seems like members aren't exactly controlled that well now. Equally it is quite possible to have an alliance without "controlling" the members.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:31   #66
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
if you set them up so they can't be used for bashing, then you'll have to apply more rules to them..... also, what your going to see is it harder to land attacks, with ppl obviously setting up defense fleet planets, maybe a scan planet etc, hell in theory one could support himself galaxy style, with a bp of his own planets....

my example ofcourse is the worst extreme, and a stretch probably...what I'm saying is, allowing multi planets is a can of worms we really don't want the admin folks to have to be responsible to police, they can't police what we have now
Bashing already has limits set in game. Examples are 25% of roid cap. As for more rules, please, PLEASE drill this through. Not MORE rules. Less rules. You just alter the bash limits in game. You can even do a simple traffic value on people who try to over bash planets by citing a level of extra ETA's if the number of attack fleets gets X large or something.

If you run 20 planets, and have 60 def fleets, you'll keep your roids. Others might choose to have 60 attack fleets. What IS the problem? You can add in the massive alliances and a lot more action to boot.

As for talking about the admin work required, if you eliminate multi's, what work are you talking about? Off course, its mindbending to the older PA player, but thats what we are talking about. Getting rid of multying altogether, letting the players play, and the PAteam do what they want to do, ie run things better.

One of the other things to alter, is how the game is scored. So you'd make changes so that bashing the same planet gets less (example). Deffing your own planets gets a lower score than helping def someone else's planet, and so on.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:33   #67
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You can take a few approaches. Hardcode out interactions. Your other planet x.y.z is already defending/attacking these co-ords, you cannot send your fleet because of this. You can't bp with yourself either etc etc. Or you can set it up ingame so it's just not viable for a long time or if it is it comes at a cost to your planet (see the idea I posted earlier).

They can't police what we have now because the rules we have don't make sense. Nor would my proposals above require additional multihunting, they'd require code modifications.
Coding out problems is the answer. Make it legal or code in the limit.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 13:10   #68
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
there just isn't enough quality HC ppl to go around to effectively control members responsible for that many planets
Give examples of how it will make it more difficult for the HC please.

1. You have more planets = more intel of the universe.
2. You have more planets = more fleets for defence.
3. You have more planets = more people signing up for group attacks = more fleet movement
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 16:33   #69
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Give examples of how it will make it more difficult for the HC please.

1. You have more planets = more intel of the universe.
2. You have more planets = more fleets for defence.
3. You have more planets = more people signing up for group attacks = more fleet movement
ya on a good day with no friendly fire to hunt down, now for 5 planets instead of 1, no "don't hit ANY of the 5 galaxies I reside in because then I won't get galaxy support" no "he's neglecting the planet he has in the galaxy that I have this planet in and it's dragging us down etc" no " well she only works defense calls for her 5 planets, instead of she only works the defense calls for her 1 planet while everyone else gets roided"

the list goes on and on.. it's HC headaches x 5, or 10 etc
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 16:45   #70
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
ya on a good day with no friendly fire to hunt down, now for 5 planets instead of 1, no "don't hit ANY of the 5 galaxies I reside in because then I won't get galaxy support" no "he's neglecting the planet he has in the galaxy that I have this planet in and it's dragging us down etc" no " well she only works defense calls for her 5 planets, instead of she only works the defense calls for her 1 planet while everyone else gets roided"

the list goes on and on.. it's HC headaches x 5, or 10 etc
NAPs and the whole galaxy-protection thing are utterly retarded anyway, so I'd be glad if this got rid of them. Planet NAPS (hi elviz!) are especially crap.

It's your own fault for running your alliance in such a dictatorial way, too.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 17:00   #71
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
It's your own fault for running your alliance in such a dictatorial way, too.
I realize that any alliance with any rules looks dictatorial compared to Ascendancy, but give me a break.

That said your overall point is correct. Theres nothing wrong with a game change that changes the way alliances work as long as it is change that leads to better game play. PA would be a lot better now if the designers had focused more on shaping game play than crafting the game around existing alliance structures. I'm not sure legal multying is a good idea, but we shouldn't reject ideas out of hand just because they would lead to changes in how people organize.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 18:26   #72
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by K-W
I realize that any alliance with any rules looks dictatorial compared to Ascendancy, but give me a break.

That said your overall point is correct. Theres nothing wrong with a game change that changes the way alliances work as long as it is change that leads to better game play. PA would be a lot better now if the designers had focused more on shaping game play than crafting the game around existing alliance structures. I'm not sure legal multying is a good idea, but we shouldn't reject ideas out of hand just because they would lead to changes in how people organize.
If we are talking about single accounts, and an open ended method for players to have more planets, and so long as this operates in a linear way

Players > Galaxies = Bigger > Alliances = Bigger again

Then the game structure is the same. One or two aspects I like, and again, I say this because I play the game as a lone player, and look upon it from there, is none of you could bash me. Well, you could, but its more likely to be just one planet, while my others have a shot at escaping. And players not being wiped off the map to me means good things.

The other is that the game would up in intensity, and in action, for those who enjoy that. The night time raiding and prelaunch stuff might still happen, but I'd guess some would attack and play round the clock.

The original premise of one planet, one player was not to stop multi's, Its the primary cause of WHY Multi'ing exists as a problem. When they said, one planet per player, people went to circumvent that.

But one thing I would like to add is this. The game has facilities in Beta/ Speedgame where people rather than having preconceived ideas, could try be stuff out. Also, globally, people might have to go back to the early spirit of PA where each round was a big change, and where that changed game, good or bad was what people tried to win.

I also happen to think, that to be fair to the PAteam, they have made changes in rounds and some of these have been vary good. I don't think its always easy to test and see ideas until in a full round anyway.

With the game now with just a few thousand left playing, and alliances not what they were, why not be very bold and try some things like multiple planets. What do you have to lose in trying some things out?
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 19:26   #73
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
the list goes on and on.. it's HC headaches x 5, or 10 etc
Have less members if you can't cope with the numbers...?
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 19:42   #74
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
If we are talking about single accounts, and an open ended method for players to have more planets, and so long as this operates in a linear way

Players > Galaxies = Bigger > Alliances = Bigger again

Then the game structure is the same. One or two aspects I like, and again, I say this because I play the game as a lone player, and look upon it from there, is none of you could bash me. Well, you could, but its more likely to be just one planet, while my others have a shot at escaping. And players not being wiped off the map to me means good things.

The other is that the game would up in intensity, and in action, for those who enjoy that. The night time raiding and prelaunch stuff might still happen, but I'd guess some would attack and play round the clock.

The original premise of one planet, one player was not to stop multi's, Its the primary cause of WHY Multi'ing exists as a problem. When they said, one planet per player, people went to circumvent that.
Night time raiding and prelaunching would exit, its when people are sleeping, that will never stop being the best time to launch fleets. But everything else you say there is true. The big issue here is that more planets is more work, which means the advantage goes to whoever is willing and able to sift through the most accounts. This becomes a primary skill in PA, and casual players are pretty much left behind. As PA is now designed a prelaunch and sleeper can compete score wise with much more active players. This would swing PA back into the hands of hardcore players by greatly rewarding activity and dedication.

Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Quote:
But one thing I would like to add is this. The game has facilities in Beta/ Speedgame where people rather than having preconceived ideas, could try be stuff out. Also, globally, people might have to go back to the early spirit of PA where each round was a big change, and where that changed game, good or bad was what people tried to win.
The early spirit of PA was on a simple game with small changes. As the round numbers got higher the changes got bigger. Early on most people assumed that they would at some point find stats that worked well and stick with them. The goal should be a well designed game. Thats going to involve changes, tweaks and refinements, but they need to be done intelligently.

Quote:
I also happen to think, that to be fair to the PAteam, they have made changes in rounds and some of these have been vary good. I don't think its always easy to test and see ideas until in a full round anyway.

With the game now with just a few thousand left playing, and alliances not what they were, why not be very bold and try some things like multiple planets. What do you have to lose in trying some things out?
My preference would be refining the game and trying to make the 1 person 1 planet thing fun. I think thats a better model for a game. But failing that I suppose it would be cool to have multiple planets, and who am I kidding the game inst getting refined.

I suspect it wouldn't work, but I also suspect I would have a lot of fun, so call me neutral.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 19:44   #75
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Have less members if you can't cope with the numbers...?
Get rid of the official alliance ranking so net score doesn't define an alliances success.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 19:46   #76
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Re: Make Multying Legal

one word answer for this suggestion :
no
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 20:25   #77
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Great thanks for the input Phil! x
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 20:48   #78
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Phil^
one word answer for this suggestion :
no
Phil being the long time guy, nominally, what he says has a venerable wisdom. In this case, boringly, he is wrong.

But then, Phil and I never agree on much.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 20:50   #79
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by K-W
. The big issue here is that more planets is more work, which means the advantage goes to whoever is willing and able to sift through the most accounts.
Erm, it would be One account. You'd just have planet screens like you have fleet screens now (ish..)

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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 20:58   #80
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Re: Make Multying Legal

I think he means that, depending on implementation, more planets (regardless of the amount of accounts they are linked to) means you have to spend more time micromanaging (heh) your planets. Thus it comes down to whoever has the most spare time to do this properly getting the advantage, as this person will have x* perfectly setup planets to work with.

*Insert whatever amount of planets is seen as the perfect max/balance
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 21:04   #81
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Wandows
I think he means that, depending on implementation, more planets (regardless of the amount of accounts they are linked to) means you have to spend more time micromanaging (heh) your planets. Thus it comes down to whoever has the most spare time to do this properly getting the advantage, as this person will have x* perfectly setup planets to work with.

*Insert whatever amount of planets is seen as the perfect max/balance
All of the players have to manage their planets. As for micromanagement, the truth is the planets take very little to look after in real terms. People who want to log in only once a day could still play just as the guy who logs in ten times a day.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 21:15   #82
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Re: Make Multying Legal

That is the point, since all players "have" to do it, the advantage goes to those willing and able to be on at the right times to manage their planets. Depending on the level of interaction and development allowed between planets owned by the same account, it could give the actives a rather big advantage (having x active, well developed, planets vs x average planets from a lesser active guy). And the question then is should activity be rewarded to such levels, or would we be looking for other ways to show/get a score/ranking difference between planets (or complete accounts).
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 21:26   #83
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Wandows
Thus it comes down to whoever has the most spare time to do this properly getting the advantage,
Is that not already the case? These games have always been more about activity than about skill.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 21:46   #84
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Re: Make Multying Legal

That is true, but chances are the difference will show more. Currently we have a relatively close ranking for planets/accounts, it could be that differences in those rankings will be bigger when players are allowed to have multiple planets (exponentially increasing the growth through smart and active account usage). And seeing the way PA scoring has been changed to level the playing field (to make it easier for inactives to 'compete' with actives), it might not be a wanted change.

This is ofcourse all hypothetical and depends on the way it is implemented. Will each planet get a score of its own, or will the account (assuming multiple planets would be linked to one account) get a combined (average) score of all planets? Perhaps it could be 'counter-balanced' by the ability to completely destroy a multi-planet (losing all techs/whatever is/was on it).
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 23:10   #85
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Re: Make Multying Legal

A fantastic idea which is likely to rapidly bring about my preferred scenario for the final demise of this game:

The last two players, two rotund couch potatoes with buckets of kfc and coke bottles strewn across their bedrooms, and an incredible array of scripts, browser plugins and god knows what else, each controlling multiple alliances worth of planets, two individuals with a seemingly tireless ability to withstand the tedium of innumerable repetitive actions, will finally give up, when they realise that they have planet napped each others "homeworlds" and have spent the last few weeks twatting each others multies.

*sigh*
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 23:18   #86
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Re: Make Multying Legal

I don't really see how it takes that long to manage your planet(s). Apart from when you're attacking/being attacked, all you really need to do is research, construction, and check if you need to send defence or recall defence.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 23:22   #87
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Re: Make Multying Legal

Tomkat: just playing devils advocate here for a second, but im beginning to feel as though there is a body of players that would be quite happy for pa crew to create a "framework for play" attach a scoring system, but throw anything approaching a rulebook out the window, and Im assuming that this suggestion is a preliminary step towards that final goal?

If this is the case, I think the people concerned should just come out with it and stop pussyfooting around.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 23:46   #88
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Re: Make Multying Legal

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Apart from when you're attacking/being attacked
I think you just answered your own question. The difficulty and more importantly tedium comes from managing all the fleets.
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