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Unread 10 Jul 2006, 22:44   #1
meglamaniac
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Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

I originally posted much of this in response to another thread, but decided it merited it's own discussion.

Earlier, I was reading a blog linked from somewhere or other. This is not normally something I do as I see most of this "web 2.0" bollocks as just that. However, this one entry is more than the usual "today I woke up and cut myself again."

It has relevance to the discussion, and linked to another article I already read in paper format this morning. I think you should read, or at least skim, both.

Blog: Freedom Of Speech Does Not Extend To Criticising The Police - The Londonist
Newspaper article: Blair laid bare: the article that may get you arrested - The Independant
Follow up proving that the article did, indeed, almost get someone arrested: Police hold mother-of-three for reading 'Independent' outside Downing Street - The Independant

It worries me that it took spelling it out in black and white for me to be made aware of quite how much damage Blair has done. The information has been available to anyone who wanted it, but, like most of the public at large, I couldn't be bothered to make the effort to find it. There have always been things I've disagreed with that Labour have done, the primary one being the Terrorism act - the imprisonment without trial, and the it's-not-house-arrest-because-we've-called-it-something-else bit. The demonstration restriction round parliament is also pretty bullshit. However, to see it all laid out for me like that is a very worrying thing.

Has anyone read or watched V for Vendetta? Does anyone else worry that this all has a whiff of Adam Sutler and Norsefire about it?

It comes to something when you're forced to vote Tory for the less authoritarian option, but that's what I'll be doing come the next chance.



Incidentally I don't have access to the full text of the article followup, so if anyone does and fancies posting it or a summary thereof, that'd be ace.
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Unread 10 Jul 2006, 23:07   #2
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

I'll be doing my usual thing of tactically voting against Labour. Lib Dems for me!


I used to support the Tories, I really did. But I don't trust Cameron anymore, despite having been caught up in the wave of euphoria that surrounded his election. There was a superb Sunday Times article that converted me a few months ago on my opinion of Cameron, but I'll be damned if I can find it
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Unread 10 Jul 2006, 23:15   #3
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Who cares?

Blair isn't going to be in office for much longer anyway (relatively speaking).

Besides, personifying Labour into "Tony Blair" and not a party is a bit sensationalist and tabloid, isn't it?
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Unread 10 Jul 2006, 23:57   #4
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

The first group were GOTHS* for goodness sakes. No rights for Goths or the world as we know it could end.

As for the reader of the Independent, here name was Sweet, Charity#. Clearly an assumed name to be used to subvert a nation.



*for Goths please see anti-Christ

#Sweet Charity was a musical-comedy about a hooker, nuf said.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 07:35   #5
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Who cares?

Blair isn't going to be in office for much longer anyway (relatively speaking).

Besides, personifying Labour into "Tony Blair" and not a party is a bit sensationalist and tabloid, isn't it?
Acts of parliament are not repealed when the present prime minister leaves office.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 07:38   #6
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Earlier, I was reading a blog linked from somewhere or other. This is not normally something I do as I see most of this "web 2.0" bollocks as just that.
What a bizarre attitude.

Anyway, obviously Labour and Tony Blair in particular are authoritarian arseholes but I fail to see how the Conservatives would have been substantially different. The only laws I can see the Tories not passing if they had been power (and facing the same national security issues, London bombings etc) would be the ban on smoking (because of the tobacco lobby) and maybe the ID cards thing. And that's not certain - the Tories have discussed it before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
Blair isn't going to be in office for much longer anyway (relatively speaking).
The damage will have already been done to an extent and if Brown get's in I don't remember him protesting too loudly about most of this. In fact, is any of the Labour inner-circle known to have particularly liberal (with a small l) views?
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 12:41   #7
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

I'm aware it will, in all likelyhood, be a case of meet the new boss, same as the old boss. However, I'm at the point where I just want Labour out, and voting Lib Dem won't achieve that (sorry guys), so it has to be Tory.

And while the Torys aren't exactly perfect, they've yet to assault what passes for our constitution in the way that Labour have.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 13:00   #8
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
If anyone is thinking that either Gordon Brown or David Cameron are any less shit then the Prime Minister then please go and read what they actually say. They are both utterly rubbish.
brown I'm pessimistic about but I like to hold some hope that he's presenting a united front rather than actually being on the same ideological ground.

anyone who thinks the Tories will somehow be "better" at defending civil rights is deluding themselves. The reason Labour are appalling is that we didn't expect all this from them.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 14:00   #9
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Exclamation Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Gordon Brown is a Scottish Labour Party politician.

That tells you all you need to know about him tbh.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 14:40   #10
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

How are the laws passed to fight terrorism (not my words) responsible for some idiot getting fined for swearing? This is a genuine question, some sort of reference to a specific piece of legislation would be warmly received, because the original article seems to suggest that these two twits were pulled over on some kind of terrorism charge.

In any case, the metal detector was more likely there to detect knives or other personal weapons (as I recall the Met has been "cracking down" on this?) than explosives or whatever. You may have a point worth making regarding authoritarianism in the UK, but this example was a very poor way to bring it to our attention.

A couple of other pointers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Londonist
I also asked them very politely if this was the UK or the People's Republic of China.
If you find yourself saying this kind of thing to a policeman you are probably a middle-class prat who fancies himself as the re-incarnation of Che Guevara. Your biting wit will not discourage the average plod but only anger him, and I won't be around to care when your first-time misdemeanor blows up in your face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Londonist
swearing on and at the tube is the only way to deal with the pain of having to travel on the dratted thing every day.
Londoners who complain about the tube in this non-constructive manner really need to put things in perspective. Most cities (especially in the UK) have made far worse attempts at mass transit. Put a ****ing sock in it.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 14:58   #11
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
No its not that, he really is a jerk (from the "the British people are too lazy and need to be less spolied despite working the longest hours in Europe" school of jerks). Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.



(ps, shut up Manson)
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 15:05   #12
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

A one mile-exclusion zone for demonstrations around Westminster is a marvellous idea. Out of sight, out of mind eh?

On a semi-related note contained the greatest sentence in the english language to date.

Quote:
But a Home Office spokesman told the BBC: "We set a timetable for when ID cards would be introduced and that might change.
And finally at the pinnacle of human evolution we reach the point of the changing timetable. What's that you say, the point of having a changing timetable? Well somebody has to get paid a hundred thousand pounds for the ten minutes work it takes to create it.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 16:06   #13
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

You know how all first time passport applicants are now gonna have to be interviewed (ABI), well the ABI offices were supposed to be up and running by September this year, only it's gonna be the start of next year before that happens. Anyways i just wonder if that's got anything to do with the overall delay.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 16:32   #14
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

I didn't actually know that, and it just makes it seem more and more sinister.
If someone had told me back in 2000 that there would be a serious chance of us all having to line up and file through government processing centres to be fingerprinted, retina scanned, photographed, interviewed and added to a government database, and that this would be compulsary (if ID cards really get going, it will be, whether you want a passport or not)... well I'm not quite sure what I'd have done, but I'd probably have mocked them and asked which conspiracy website they were reading.

What's worse is that so many people blindly accept it.


I'm just glad I was able to renew my passport earlier this year, before the charge was jacked up to pay for the new biometric systems and so on. It now expires in 2016. I just hope that by Thursday June 3rd 2010* this has all come crashing down and I've bought myself the time to avoid being added to the database, because passport applications are where the first compulsary additions will be coming from.

* The last day the next general election can be held, under the Parliament act. Assuming Blair doesn't have that changed to allow him to lock up the government without charge or trial as well.
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Last edited by meglamaniac; 11 Jul 2006 at 16:39.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 18:05   #15
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
The Home office Newsdesk are 6 fairly cool people taking 700 calls a day only to get misquoted by the BBC, so don't be dissing them.
No, no, you misunderstood me. That's the greatest sentence ever. If the bbc get to claim it ahead of the home office it's their loss
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 18:56   #16
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
If someone had told me back in 2000 that there would be a serious chance of us all having to line up and file through government processing centres to be fingerprinted, retina scanned, photographed, interviewed and added to a government database, and that this would be compulsary (if ID cards really get going, it will be, whether you want a passport or not)... well I'm not quite sure what I'd have done, but I'd probably have mocked them and asked which conspiracy website they were reading.
are these really the things you are worried about?

my name, photograph, address, phone number, height, eye color, select medical conditions/history/information, fingerprints, job history + earnings history, criminal record, and a somewhat thorough psychological profile of myself are already spread throughout various government databases. no retina scan, but a start, no?

i'm not entirely sure what EVUL someone could do with access to this information, but if there was such a thing, then they would have no problem getting access to any/all of it (using well-placed bribes etc.) and doing said EVUL.

i'm not sure what good could be done with access to the info either (especially in the war on evildoers), but i know at present said good could not be done given the uncentralized nature of the data and the various limitations on bureaucratic access to it.

anyway, when government says they have a right to limit criticism etc., i have a huge problem. but for that other stuff? meh. could care less.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 20:07   #17
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
If someone had told me back in 2000 that there would be a serious chance of us all having to line up and file through government processing centres to be fingerprinted, retina scanned, photographed, interviewed and added to a government database, and that this would be compulsary (if ID cards really get going, it will be, whether you want a passport or not)... well I'm not quite sure what I'd have done, but I'd probably have mocked them and asked which conspiracy website they were reading.

What's worse is that so many people blindly accept it.
Acropolis has already said this, but most of that information is already freely available to the government, should they so wish to access it.

You're just being sensationalist about it
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 20:19   #18
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by acropolis
i'm not entirely sure what EVUL someone could do with access to this information, but if there was such a thing, then they would have no problem getting access to any/all of it (using well-placed bribes etc.) and doing said EVUL..
I should think it was fairly uncontroversial that, if nothing else, it's a lot more dangerous for such data to be held in one place even if you trust the government entirely.

And it goes without saying that many of us don't trust the government entirely anyway. Given that, it's a bit more reassuring that data is widely dispersed with no automatic immediate access available to any one agency. If nothing else, this dispersal of information slows the government down dramatically (and in this sort of data analysis work slowing down may mean in practical terms make impossible). This may be seen as a huge disadvantage if your top priority is fighting crime, but understandably that's not my priority.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 20:31   #19
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I should think it was fairly uncontroversial that, if nothing else, it's a lot more dangerous for such data to be held in one place even if you trust the government entirely.
What are they going to do with it?
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 20:39   #20
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
What are they going to do with it?
Well on that one I said if you trust the government entirely. Let's imagine you do. There is now a database with lots of your personal details on it. Databases can suffer security problems. More mundanely, it will be open to people who work with it. One of my former teachers used to work in the tax office and would regularly read up on the tax files of celebrities when bored. Obviously that was only one form of information. What if it was financial records + life history + medical records + misc. It becomes a bit more worrying then, no?

Perhaps you are comfortable with random people having access to pretty much every detail of your life. Others are not, but even if you discount this general desire for privacy it's easy to imagine that various forms of fraud would be easier if you had access to every single piece of information about an individual.

And that's if you're entirely trustful of the government.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 20:45   #21
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Others are not, but even if you discount this general desire for privacy it's easy to imagine that various forms of fraud would be easier if you had access to every single piece of information about an individual.
Fraud exists anyway - if someone was that intent on finding out that information about my life they'd be able to do it without much difficulty.

I honestly couldn't care less if the government standardised identification across the country - in fact I'd probably welcome the change. It might make things easier and more fluid from everything to changing doctors to helping track my financial records to verifying qualifications.

Really - this 1984 conspiracy theory nonsense is quite over the top
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 20:48   #22
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Acropolis has already said this, but most of that information is already freely available to the government, should they so wish to access it.

You're just being sensationalist about it
My finger prints have never been taken.

Clearly you and I differ in that regard.

We also differ in the way that I value my privacy and my freedom and will not give them away for free. Nor will I have them taken from me.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 21:00   #23
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I should think it was fairly uncontroversial that, if nothing else, it's a lot more dangerous for such data to be held in one place even if you trust the government entirely.
i could agree that it isn't controversial, but i would say that it's unclear to me that it shouldn't be.

i don't trust the thugs and child molesters in our executive branch any farther than i can shit, but i don't stay up late at night worrying that someday they might have access to my earnings history and eye color. worry that they could kidnap me from my home, send me off to some third-world nation to be tortured for years with no legal recourse? yeah, that may be a gray hair or two. but i don't see how they relate.

and that's from someone who doesn't trust his government. i guess i simply don't see what the "dangers" you are referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And it goes without saying that many of us don't trust the government entirely anyway. Given that, it's a bit more reassuring that data is widely dispersed with no automatic immediate access available to any one agency. If nothing else, this dispersal of information slows the government down dramatically (and in this sort of data analysis work slowing down may mean in practical terms make impossible). This may be seen as a huge disadvantage if your top priority is fighting crime, but understandably that's not my priority.
i agree that this dispersal makes it, in some cases, difficult for the government to act. i don't see that as obviously a good thing, and i certainly don't see why some people act like the issue should be a major priority for 'alert citizens'.

obviously the history of the world has few things more common than governments overreaching, with predictably disastrous results. but to my knowledge none of them related to excessively centralized databases.

PS: what is your priority?
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 21:01   #24
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
My finger prints have never been taken.

Clearly you and I differ in that regard.

We also differ in the way that I value my privacy and my freedom and will not give them away for free. Nor will I have them taken from me.
will you let someone take a portion of your income?
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 21:02   #25
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Fraud exists anyway - if someone was that intent on finding out that information about my life they'd be able to do it without much difficulty.
Obviously fraud exists. And yes, if one person was desperate to find out everything they wanted to about you personally they probably could (although I don't think it's trivial to find someone's blood test results, or retina scan or finger prints in most cases). But that's not how fraud works.
Quote:
Really - this 1984 conspiracy theory nonsense is quite over the top
Condeming everything as a "conspiracy" is one of the weakest (and most tired) retorts to any criticism of polocy. I am not talking about a conspiracy theory here (I explicitly said twice in my previous example that those arguments applied even if you totally trusted the government). But let's put another way :
- This will definitely cost billions of pounds to implement even according to it's defenders. Given that almost every public sector IT project run recently has run obscenely over budget it's not unreasonably to assume this will too (and will have some dodgy private sector company with a terrible track record of running things, sup Capita).
- This sort of project involves collecting data at an unprecendented level - saying the "government already have it" is false, unless they can scan our retinas via CCTV which seems slightly unlikely. This raises privacy and security concerns.
- The benefits are not clear or as pronounced as they should be to justify either the cost or the security/privacy issues.
- There are no clear benefits to justify the cost, or the privacy issues. Vaguely it will "fight terror" but one suspects that withdrawing our troops from Iraq would reduce terrorism against the United Kingdom and would be considerably cheaper.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 21:04   #26
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by acropolis
and that's from someone who doesn't trust his government. i guess i simply don't see what the "dangers" you are referring to.
"Security breaches" if nothing else.
Quote:
PS: what is your priority?
Well as someone who regularly commits what are currently termed "crimes" my priority is not getting caught or dramatically increasing the powers available to people who would like to put me in prison.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 22:09   #27
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Well, in Germany we've had ID cards for a long time, so it is normal to me and there doesn't seem to be any abuse of the system (e.g. police will usually only want to see them after they catch you doing something).

So ID cards in itself are not that great of a danger, but what is problematic is that the government is taking away rights/freedom with very weak excuses. Why haven't ID cards been used to prevent IRA terrorism? How is demonstrating in front of a parliament building against public interest? I think it is a better idea to tell the government now that they should leave the rights to privacy, freedom of speech, etc. alone instead of waiting until they aim for something even more serious. Because you damn sure won't get any of it back, the laws are only going to be more and more strict, I fear.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 22:14   #28
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
If anyone is thinking that either Gordon Brown or David Cameron are any less shit then the Prime Minister then please go and read what they actually say. They are both utterly rubbish.
ill second that. i had a similar view on bush winning the election in the US. He won because his opponent was shit, nothing more.

its like that here in england, of all the candidates in the last election, blair won because his opponents were crap. with blair standing down and brown taking over (?) i probably wont vote for any of the big 3 parties on the principal that i wouldnt like to see any of the 3 leaders in office
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 22:20   #29
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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ps, shut up Manson)
He's right though.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 22:45   #30
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
although I don't think it's trivial to find someone's blood test results, or retina scan or finger prints in most cases). But that's not how fraud works.
Without making it personal, I'd assume this is mainly because your blood test results would probably contain some drugs/substances which you wouldn't want people finding out about?

I couldn't care less if my blood results were available freely to the health service. In fact I'd welcome it - it'd hopefully speed up the whole process of checking they were "normal" etc when you go to a doctor's.

With a retina scan I can't think what possible use anyone would have for it.

My fingerprints are available to the police (albeit just Jersey) already from me being a fool a few years ago. The only possible repercussion I have for this is that I'd never consider committing a crime as I know they'd be able to catch me more easily. Which is a good thing, surely?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Condeming everything as a "conspiracy" is one of the weakest (and most tired) retorts to any criticism of polocy. I am not talking about a conspiracy theory here (I explicitly said twice in my previous example that those arguments applied even if you totally trusted the government). But let's put another way :
I've requoted because you used a different argument there.

Sorry for resorting to "you're a conspiracy theorist!!" retorts, but that is what it sounded like. Even if you said "if you TRUST the government", it then sounds like you think some sort of dramatic loss of privacy will occur just because they have a few personal details on you.

Relating to the cost - the government will always be criticised on what it spends money on. Regardless of the government, regardless of what they spend the cash on.

In the last year we've been told that GPs are overpaid (the people responsible for our health and wellbeing), BBC heads are overpaid (the people responsible for entertaining us) and that the London Academies initiative was a complete disaster (when it wasn't - not entirely anyway).

If the government want to flush money away, I couldn't care less how they do it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
My finger prints have never been taken.

Clearly you and I differ in that regard.

We also differ in the way that I value my privacy and my freedom and will not give them away for free. Nor will I have them taken from me.
Can you explain to me how having your fingerprints taken would affect your privacy and/or freedom, please?





On another note, all this hype about ID cards containing everything from the number of people I've had sex with to my reputation count on GD - where is there a categorical list of what would and would not be contained on them?
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 22:52   #31
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

It looks like we've already lost Tomkat

As others have said, the government doesn't have my fingerprint (I've been a good boy), and they certainly don't have a retina scan.

Why am I worried?
This breaks down into two distinct points. Misdirection and misuse. Let's tackle misdirection first.

What started this whole ID cards idea off anyway? If you ask a minister, they'll say it was a response to 9/11. Bollocks. Blair wanted these for ages, and 9/11 was the perfect excuse. Flash forward to the 7th July, and amid the tragedy the government still manages to snidely push the agenda, dropping not-so-subtle hints that all this would have been impossible with ID cards. At this point we have to stop and think for a second.
Let me give you two scenarios.
The first is the 7th July. British citizens are radicalised, go to pakistan or afghanistan for further training, and return. They hatch a plan to bomb the london transport network. They appropriate supplies and equipment from covert sources and execute the plan. The only place in which ID cards would even have an impact on this scenario is if the trip to Afghanistan was flagged (integrated with passports, remember?) - but wait! Our government has promised not to do this to us! So once again assuming you trust the government and take their word, ID cards are useless in this situation.
The second is fictional. A terrorist cell smuggles itself into the country using illegal immigration routes. They already have a plan, and are merely entering the country to execute it. They meet with a contact, a radicalised British citizen, who provides them with the money required to purchase their equipment and transportation. Illegal immigrant transporters do not require ID cards. Black market goods do not require ID cards. Buying a second hand car from the local paper does not require an ID card. Driving to the target and detonating the carbomb does not require an ID card. ID cards are, once again, useless.

Ok so we've now debunked the terrorism angle.
What's left? Ah yes, the issue that gets the BNP types riled up. Immigration. Well I think we've just about covered that in with the terrorism bit. You don't need an ID card to be smuggled into the country in the back of a lorry from Eastern Europe. You don't need an ID card to live with 10 other immigrants in a 2 bed semi above a chipshop working for a chinese gangmaster. I think you get the idea. 1 - 0 to the immigrants. Of course, for people coming in by legal channels then ID cards will work perfectly, but that won't change anything. The government likes to sell this image of ID cards errecting an electronic fence around the country. I'm sorry Mr Blair, but it simply doesn't work like that.

That's the sorry truth, and that's the misdirection the government is trying to pass off. So what's the real reason the government wants ID cards? For that, you just have to look into the mirror. Welcome to misuse.

ID cards are the perfect tracking tool. We already know they will be inseperable from passports. National security, tax, benefits, criminal record, DVLA, etc etc etc. All this will be tied together, centralised, and accessible to ministers. Is this REALLY something you can trust them with? There are also plans to tie them into your medical records. Once again this is being sold as a "service" - just go online, use your ID card and view your complete medical history! The security implications of this alone don't bear thinking about.
Government spin aside, there are actually two reasons these cards are on the agenda. The first one has been covered. The second is so obvious that if you haven't thought about it before, you'll kick yourself. Money.
The database will operate on a two-tier system. The second tier limited access section will allow government vetted companies and organisations access to a subset of your personal information. For a hefty fee of course. Each and every one of us is now a government asset. It's almost beautiful in a perverted way. Sell the system based on fear of terrorism, make it compulsary, make money from the information people have been forced to provide, give yourself a huge new tracking system into the bargain, and don't in any way address the problem that the system was sold to address.
Oh and yes, and get it for free. That's right, your shiney new ID card comes with an equally shiney pricetag. Thinktanks currently believe the government's estimate of around £100 is an underestimate by at least 100%. Nice.

So we have vague promises that the system will be used to combat terrorism, but when you realise that it can't possibly work, and that "a terrorist" can just as easily be a British citizen, that gives the government carte blanche to monitor whoever they please. And that's the bit we know about. God only knows what MI5 will be up to with it.

The next logical step (and high ranking members of the police force have been dropping hints that they want this for ages) is compulsary DNA samples being added to it. Every man, woman and child, and newborns added at birth.
I for one am not taking Blairs word that this won't happen, and he hasn't even given it yet. As the original Independant article points out, he's already eliminated trial by jury and the principal that punishment should not be applied before conviction of a crime in certain situations. He's removed public trials and hearings for terroist suspects. He's extended the length of time such suspects can be held without trial. And remember, ministers decide if you're a terrorist, not a judge. In the eyes of Labour, they ARE the law, and they've got away with it. Say the "T" word, and the principal of innocent until proven guilty goes right out of the window, and I don't trust the government to apply their shiney new powers.

It's extraordinary.
The party tramples all over the constitution, the founding principals of justice, and the seperation of politics and judicial process, and the majority of the population says "Oh ok then." I can only assume it'll take a very significant abuse of these powers - they have, after all, been abused already - for people to sit up and pay attention. Maybe once we start our very own US style "rendition" programme and a few innocent people get flown to military bases and tortured, the penny will drop. I hope it doesn't go that far, but I can't say it looks promising at the moment.

The idea behind a representative democracy is that government is there as the elected representative of the people, to best serve and protect their interests. Now look at what we've really got, and ask yourself: where did we go so wrong?
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:00   #32
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opi
Well, in Germany we've had ID cards for a long time, so it is normal to me and there doesn't seem to be any abuse of the system (e.g. police will usually only want to see them after they catch you doing something).

So ID cards in itself are not that great of a danger, but what is problematic is that the government is taking away rights/freedom with very weak excuses. Why haven't ID cards been used to prevent IRA terrorism? How is demonstrating in front of a parliament building against public interest? I think it is a better idea to tell the government now that they should leave the rights to privacy, freedom of speech, etc. alone instead of waiting until they aim for something even more serious. Because you damn sure won't get any of it back, the laws are only going to be more and more strict, I fear.
Quoted for absolute truth.
Be careful, those of you who would give away your rights in exchange for the perception of security. Once they've gone, it's next to impossible to get them back.

On another note, I didn't even cover human error or security vulnerabilities in my other post.
For crying out loud, just last week our rapid response plan for a major terrorist incident was discovered in a ditch by the side of the road. How long before some absent minded civil service moron loses his access card? Granted, I'm sure they'll have two factor authentication, but it won't take long for one of them to lose their RSA keyfob either, and then we're buggered. It's just too risky, especially given the track record.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:14   #33
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Oh I'm not for ID cards. I agree - I can't think of a single reason which would warrant the enormous cost that would be required to implement them.

But I'm also not really against them, as I think the hype is just that - hype. You won't lose your privacy or anything because of it. Who cares if your medical records can be viewed.

I remember working in the filing area of the Jersey Hospital ages and ages ago and I had access to pretty much every islander's medical history. I think I looked up my ex-girlfriend's. I didn't find anything. And even if I had, I wouldn't have told anyone as it was breaking the confidentiality rules and I'd have been fired. A few random people are welcome to look at my not so interesting information (although my medical records are now a massive volume so good luck reading it - as I had an apparently remarkable extremely rare form of cancer - go me! ).
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:17   #34
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Without making it personal, I'd assume this is mainly because your blood test results would probably contain some drugs/substances which you wouldn't want people finding out about?
No. I just like the idea of privacy. Where I do want to disclose information to the world, I can always post about it on the internet, I don't need the government disclosing it to everyone.
Quote:
I couldn't care less if my blood results were available freely to the health service.
This is domain specific information and I doubt anyone is seriously arguing against it. Obviously blood records are going to available to the NHS and your financial records to the Inland Revenue - that's fairly straight forward. What I am saying is I don't want anyone who has access to NHS records having access to my financial records or my medical records to the Inland Revenue. It's just not necessary and needlessly inflates the number of people who have access to your personal data. So for example, my medical records should remain between me and my doctor and shouldn't be handed over to the police unless there is some sort of court order involved (I've no idea if this is the current law, but it should be).
Quote:
With a retina scan I can't think what possible use anyone would have for it.
Then why collect it? Either it's going to be useful at some point in the future in which case there will be a fraudulent use for it (e.g. spoofing someone's identity somehow) or it's not, in which case don't collect it. One of the key principles that data holders in this country have to abide by is the idea of not collecting superfluous data. I want the government to be held to these rules.
Quote:
My fingerprints are available to the police (albeit just Jersey) already from me being a fool a few years ago.
That's nice. Mine aren't afaik.
Quote:
The only possible repercussion I have for this is that I'd never consider committing a crime as I know they'd be able to catch me more easily. Which is a good thing, surely?
It depends what you mean by crime. If you mean "less likely to rape an old lady" then of course it's a good thing. If you mean less likely to protest in front of Parliament then I'd say it was a bad thing. Even if you agree with 100% of laws today this doesn't mean you will tomorrow, or the next day.
Quote:
If the government want to flush money away, I couldn't care less how they do it.
This is a bit of a strange argument. So if the government said they were going to spend ten billion quid on me because I was so fantastic you wouldn't be even slightly worried about blatant misuse of public funds?
Quote:
Who cares if your medical records can be viewed.
Well, if I had a lot of diseases (e.g. AIDS) then there's a damn lot of people I wouldn't want to see. Same as if I had suffered a sexual assault (or abuse as a child) - I wouldn't want most people to know about it. Again, you might not care about your privacy - others might.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:22   #35
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
So if the government said they were going to spend ten billion quid on me because I was so fantastic you wouldn't be even slightly worried about blatant misuse of public funds?
I probably wouldn't care. I mean obviously that's an extreme and unlikely example, but I (probably against my better judgement) have faith in what the government spends money on.

I wouldn't presume to think I know more about the country's wellbeing or status than the government and the people employed to know about the country's wellbeing and status do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, if I had a lot of diseases (e.g. AIDS) then there's a damn lot of people I wouldn't want to see.
Why?

Anyone who you wouldn't want to know probably should know so they're aware of the risks to themselves.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:44   #36
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I wouldn't presume to think I know more about the country's wellbeing or status than the government and the people employed to know about the country's wellbeing and status do.
Following this logic, I can't see how you could ever ciriticise the government for anything? How do you decide who you want to vote for - do you always vote for the incumbent? I mean, these are people who we (in a very indirect sense) put into office. Presuming they always know what they're doing (aside from being slightly ignorant of history) strikes me as terribly dangerous.

Surely you've heard of a government policy (just one will do) that you disagreed with? In that case, why did you presume you knew better than the people paid to make these decisions?
Quote:
Anyone who you wouldn't want to know probably should know so they're aware of the risks to themselves.
What, my boss? Some of my relatives who are judgemental ****s? My next door neighbour?

There is an ethical issue here obviously when it comes to partners (obviously I would want them to know).

As to why - it's the same reason I wouldn't necessarily want the world to know if I had suffered child abuse or a sexual assault. This is a private matter and there are some people who would probably use it against you / treat you differently / etc. Why on earth do you think we have medical confidentiality in the first place? If I wish to tell people then that should be my right.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:59   #37
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
How do you decide who you want to vote for - do you always vote for the incumbent?
I've never voted.

Firstly because I'd have to fill out a load of forms to get on the electoral role as I'm from Jersey, and I never bothered.

Secondly because I'm very much a believer in what-should-be-should-be. If I involve myself in the voting, then fine. If I don't, then also fine. In the end my decision will always be the right one, whichever path I take.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Surely you've heard of a government policy (just one will do) that you disagreed with?
No, actually. Not off the top of my head anyway - and I'd assume that as I can't remember any then I can't have strongly opposed any.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Why on earth do you think we have medical confidentiality in the first place? If I wish to tell people then that should be my right.
They aren't talking about making medical records public though

You're complaining because they might be available to a few people in offices with nothing better to do with their time than look up your records.

That already can happen - ID cards won't change anything except give a few more people access to them. To presume that anyone would want to look at them, thereby breaking their confidentiality agreement and losing their job, is a bit bigheaded, surely?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 00:12   #38
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
No, actually. Not off the top of my head anyway - and I'd assume that as I can't remember any then I can't have strongly opposed any.
OK, fair enough then. I presumed you might have an interest in politics one way or the other. If not then that's cool. I presume if the government changes and they're against a centralised database you'll be against it too so I don't suppose it matters.
Quote:
They aren't talking about making medical records public though
I know that, I was responding to your point about "Who cares if your medical records can be viewed." My point was ; lots of people care and for very good reasons.
Quote:
To presume that anyone would want to look at them, thereby breaking their confidentiality agreement and losing their job, is a bit bigheaded, surely?
Well, obviously I'm not merely outlining all of this for purely selfish reasons. I am concerned about people's privacy generally. If (say) 90% of the countries medical records were posted online but mine wasn't then I'd still view this as a horrible event even if I wasn't directly affected. There is nothing in my medical history I particularly care about but that's not really the point. One day there might be.

And you already admitted you looked at your ex's medical records. When my ex was working in the NHS she used to look at random people's files too. And I'm not claiming to be above this sort of nonsense, when I started working at a place with a customer database I used to look up people I knew too. Given all of this, it's hardly an extraordinary claim that people will do something similar with this uber database you seem to be supporting.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 00:30   #39
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
OK, fair enough then. I presumed you might have an interest in politics one way or the other.
Just because I haven't strongly disagreed with any of Labour's policies (I was too young to care about the UK government before Labour came to power) doesn't mean I don't have an interest in politics.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Given all of this, it's hardly an extraordinary claim that people will do something similar with this uber database you seem to be supporting.
There's a big difference between someone looking up your information and people looking up the information then using it in some form against the person in question.

Information is useless if it isn't distributed.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 00:35   #40
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opi
Well, in Germany we've had ID cards for a long time, so it is normal to me and there doesn't seem to be any abuse of the system (e.g. police will usually only want to see them after they catch you doing something).
Once upon a time there was a young man who had to take the bus to get to school. The closest bus station was in an area where the police knew that some drug dealers where doing their business. So they do observations and occasionally check peoples ID cards. Our young man is checked but doesnt mind because he has no clue what this is about as he just wants to take the bus to school.

Some years later our young man had a car accident which ends up in front of a court. For some reason the judge treats him in a weird way and at some point outright tell him that they know about his past history in the drug scene (which means his credibility is pretty close to zero). The guy is surprised but the explanation is simple - there was a little remark on his police file because they noticed and IDed him repeatedly in areas of "the drug scene".
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 01:23   #41
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Frankly Tom I have to say I find your attitude disturbing. Privacy is a right, and one that is becoming harder to uphold with every passing day.

Who cares if my medical records are compromised?
I care; that information is private to me, as is the decision to release it. Regardless of how important or embarassing the contents may or may not be, it's the principal and the right of privacy which is so important and should not be given away lightly.

With all-pervading surveillance comes the police state and the government working against it's own citizens. You may be comfortable with that. I'm sure as hell not.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 07:50   #42
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Can you explain to me how having your fingerprints taken would affect your privacy and/or freedom, please?
Explain it to you? No. It doesn't seem that any of us can do that.

Which is a little saddening.

Still at least you can rest well knowing that the likes of those against you in this thread will fight to stop your lemming-like march toward tyrany.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 09:46   #43
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Can you explain to me how having your fingerprints taken would affect your privacy and/or freedom, please?
It was already suggested to embed fingerprint detection technology into handrails of the public transport system and key public buildings. Imagine how useful the resulting movement patterns would be esp. in combination with the ever growing number-plate scanning and (permanent) storage of such data.

The same would apply to tracing the flow of money by fingerprints on bank notes (no clue how practicable this currently is).
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 11:20   #44
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat


Can you explain to me how having your fingerprints taken would affect your privacy and/or freedom, please?

because mistakes are never made with fingerprints ofc
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:03   #45
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As to why - it's the same reason I wouldn't necessarily want the world to know if I had suffered child abuse or a sexual assault. This is a private matter and there are some people who would probably use it against you / treat you differently / etc. Why on earth do you think we have medical confidentiality in the first place? If I wish to tell people then that should be my right.
yeah, medical data is probably the most obvious set of data people have good reason to keep private.

it's also probably the most easily obtained set of info by an interested third party, and it is also a set of data where the value of a centralized database is the most obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Once upon a time there was a young man who had to take the bus to get to school. The closest bus station was in an area where the police knew that some drug dealers where doing their business. So they do observations and occasionally check peoples ID cards. Our young man is checked but doesnt mind because he has no clue what this is about as he just wants to take the bus to school.

Some years later our young man had a car accident which ends up in front of a court. For some reason the judge treats him in a weird way and at some point outright tell him that they know about his past history in the drug scene (which means his credibility is pretty close to zero). The guy is surprised but the explanation is simple - there was a little remark on his police file because they noticed and IDed him repeatedly in areas of "the drug scene".
the judge could have done the same thing if that remark wasn't in his file.

which is why that isn't admissible as evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
With all-pervading surveillance comes the police state and the government working against it's own citizens. You may be comfortable with that. I'm sure as hell not.
why do you think a police state would come with pervasive surveillance?

why would government workers say "well, now that we have all this data, let's start working against our citizens"?

dante hinted at a depressing argument here, that government is already working against its citizens, and as of now just has their hands tied by the general dispersal of relevant data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Still at least you can rest well knowing that the likes of those against you in this thread will fight to stop your lemming-like march toward tyrany.
how does centralizing databases lead to tyranny?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
It was already suggested to embed fingerprint detection technology into handrails of the public transport system and key public buildings. Imagine how useful the resulting movement patterns would be esp. in combination with the ever growing number-plate scanning and (permanent) storage of such data.

The same would apply to tracing the flow of money by fingerprints on bank notes (no clue how practicable this currently is).
and you fear that this data could be misused in what manner?
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
witnesses make mistakes all the time too.

if you think fingerprints are so ineffective that we should stop using them, that's an argument that could be made. maybe we should stop using witnesses too; in any event, as long as there is law enforcement, innocent people will be imprisoned. some people do in fact argue for an abolition of law enforcement. i don't. and i don't think you do either.

anyway, while i agree that people should vote against loss of privacy whenever an unsactisfactory need is all that is presented,

i think that being aware of what 'private information' about you is out there, how it could be abused, what signs would indicate misuse, what type of oversight is in place to prevent misuse, as well as placing similar questions towards any new proposals is at least if not more important for Alert Citizens to do.

the "gov'ment shouldn't have any more information about me than they already have" is probably a reasonable default position for the ignorant, but i think for the rest, questions like
"who already has access to information they shouldn't (and could abuse)?"
"who doesn't have access to information they could make very positive use out of?"
should be asked and constantly reassessed.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:20   #46
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
yeah, medical data is probably the most obvious set of data people have good reason to keep private.

it's also probably the most easily obtained set of info by an interested third party, and it is also a set of data where the value of a centralized database is the most obvious.
We already have centralised databases of medical records. Well, sort of. No-one (to my knowledge) is arguing against centralising medical records generally (there's a huge IT project in the UK underway to put a lot of records/appointments online for patients), it's the idea that other government agencies need access to my medical records. Absolutley zero benefit seems to exist on that point (aside from statistical / research purposes, and that can be dumped into the academic domain scrubbed of personal data I guess). Centralised domain specific records is not a problem as I've already said (although individuals should have the right to opt-out and there's a lot of improvements that could be made to patient privacy from the little I've seen of the NHS).
Quote:
dante hinted at a depressing argument here, that government is already working against its citizens, and as of now just has their hands tied by the general dispersal of relevant data.
Well, they are certainly working against some of their citizens, certainly (given that your government has two million of it's citizens in prison this hardly seems like a controversial argument). The point is not that the government is our (where our is a random selection of citizens) enemy most of the time (it's not) it's that there's always a change we could become the government's enemy at some point. In such a circumstance, inefficiency (in the most positive sort of sense) is a useful check on state power.

I mean, if we're saying "Well, I'm not the enemy of my government or the police, why should I worry?". Well, why not just abolish the concept of a search warrant. All it must do is slow down the process of catching bad guys / terrorists / child molestors for no good reason. After all, what do you have to fear if the police do come into your home? Etc, etc.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:21   #47
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

If publicising terror warnings isn't striking more fear into your citizens and creating conditions for them to be able bring in more unneeded legislation that erodes their civil liberties even more because citizens are even more worried (when really they should get on their job with trying to catch them), I don't know what is. For the first time perhaps, I think maybe just maybe our state might be working against us.

I'm sure the government has plenty of information on us, which each respective department needs. It can already look from department to department to scan for information, it seems - the benefit cheat ads claim that they can. They might want to centralise information but that's to do with more how they are run rather than whether we need an ID card. Centralisation of information comes with it's benefits (efficiency) and risks (someone misusing the system to use information for a reason for tyranny) so it's something that should be thought hard about how 'foolproof' any system is with regards to who accesses what and how much. Even then, I'm struggling to find out why they want to stick me on a card and grab a quick snap of me retinas and grab a few paw prints. Bodily integrity important and the state should have adequate reason to violate it, in this situation I see none.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:44   #48
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

1. Where is it written that the ID Cards would contain all this data such as medical records, retinal scans, fingerprints, family history etc? Sounds like you've all just decided that's what they'll have.

2. Do you really think that the government would just make ALL the information on each ID card available to ALL departments? No. It wouldn't be difficult to just allow certain departments access to certain records on the SIM card on your ID card (which is what I assume they'd use). IE: the police can access the fingerprints data but not medical records. The hospital can access your medical records but not your retinal scan.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:47   #49
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
1. Where is it written that the ID Cards would contain all this data such as medical records, retinal scans, fingerprints, family history etc? Sounds like you've all just decided that's what they'll have.
Well I'd hope the ID card itself would carry none of that information but knowing how shit the government are it wouldn't surprise me if it did. Think about it, why would you want _the card_ to hold all the information? Put another way, do you think your bank card holds your complete banking records on it? Do you think it even stores your balance on the card?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:53   #50
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Re: Labour, Tony Blair, Authoritarianism and erosion of civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Government spin aside, there are actually two reasons these cards are on the agenda. The first one has been covered. The second is so obvious that if you haven't thought about it before, you'll kick yourself. Money.
The database will operate on a two-tier system. The second tier limited access section will allow government vetted companies and organisations access to a subset of your personal information. For a hefty fee of course. Each and every one of us is now a government asset. It's almost beautiful in a perverted way. Sell the system based on fear of terrorism, make it compulsary, make money from the information people have been forced to provide, give yourself a huge new tracking system into the bargain, and don't in any way address the problem that the system was sold to address.
Oh and yes, and get it for free. That's right, your shiney new ID card comes with an equally shiney pricetag. Thinktanks currently believe the government's estimate of around £100 is an underestimate by at least 100%. Nice.


*doo dee doo doo, doo dee doo doo* The future. It's already here.

The PVS is already up and running by the way (just within the past couple of months i think). Vetted companies either pay a subscription rate to have access to the data, pay a set fee for a set number of checks, or phone up a hotline and get charged £1.50 (i think) a minute to get details checked. This info (confirming your identity) is shared with the DVLA, the Police, banks and companies in general.

At the moment i think there's approx 3k IPS workers. The projections state that there will be 8 or 9k or so (i think ... the talk that i'm getting this info from was back in January) within a few years. What was the UKPS is just one strand in IPS now. PVS is where the future is. I think about 800 staff are being hired for ABI. I can only assume the rest are gonna be going into PVS.



Anyways *shurg*
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