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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 14:29   #1
Jewid
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A new emp.

The other day we were bouncing ideas in #planetarion about changing the way emp worked, such as emp'ed ships staying emp'ed and costing resources to repair or making them salvagable
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 14:31   #2
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Re: A new emp.

i have no idea what this would take to implement but i think it would give cath more of a fair edge in the game instead of just being the punching bag because of no loss def etc
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 14:47   #3
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Re: A new emp.

Disclaimer: I've not played for some time.
Having said that, is there /really/ a need to improve things for cath?
When I played (and I played for a LOT of rounds) cath when commanded by a sane player that knew the race, and who had good reliable attack partners to team with, were capable of devastating attacks. (And tough to attack with good fleet composition!). Certainly not a "punching bag" in the right hands.

Maybe not the race for people that have nfi what they are doing, but they can choose terran or xan right?
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 15:13   #4
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Re: A new emp.

Dont get me wrong, cath can be quite unstoppable if played right and with the right stats, but lets be honest, breaking emp in the past few rounds has been like taking candy from a baby
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 15:15   #5
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Re: A new emp.

So instead of giving cath a shitty "kill" ship like scorp, locust etc, why not change emp to actually do something outside of combat
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 15:51   #6
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Re: A new emp.

worth experimenting with.

anything from 1% - 2% "kill" on the emp of the ships frozen to giving the ships emped "repair time" when they get back to base so many ships v production cost per tick or something along those lines.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 15:56   #7
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Re: A new emp.

The issue with Cath and EMP in general is and always has been this: small planets get shat on, large ones are untouchable. This also applies to normal planets, but only to a certain degree; covering 80% or less of an attacker's fleet is a massacre for Cath players, but is manageable for races that can actually deal some damage back.

No "critical overload" is going to fix that.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 16 Dec 2010 at 16:03.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:01   #8
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Re: A new emp.

I just think to myself, why should emp planets suffer the same old shit of, we break his emp, he needs to get def, and he doesnt get def, and then they land and get to keep ships...
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:03   #9
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Re: A new emp.

So why not have a formula where maybe 5% of the total value emp'ed are frozen permanent until repaired at a cost to attacker/defender.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:17   #10
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Re: A new emp.

A question for you Jewid ... would the damaged ships if at base be able to take part in combat at all? wether it be as emp/kill flak and doesnt fire or just doesn't take part in combat period?
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:20   #11
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Re: A new emp.

unless already repaired id say no, but still can take damage/be stolen?
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:23   #12
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Re: A new emp.

also would damaged ships be shown up in scans at all/
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:25   #13
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Re: A new emp.

You don't need to make a new post for every sentence. This is not IRC. Finish your thought before pressing the button.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:25   #14
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Re: A new emp.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The issue with Cath and EMP in general is and always has been this: small planets get shat on, large ones are untouchable...
That wasn't true in r39. 2 cath in top 100 (none in top50). It wasn't possible to become big as the emp was so weak everybody could land on you for free.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:26   #15
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Re: A new emp.

They are still ships, so they should show up in scans, maybe under a emp'ed ships category
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:29   #16
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Re: A new emp.

Im on a phone atm tht only allows 250 chars per post, so i guess i suck
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 16:50   #17
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Re: A new emp.

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
That wasn't true in r39. 2 cath in top 100 (none in top50). It wasn't possible to become big as the emp was so weak everybody could land on you for free.
Whoosh.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 17:13   #18
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Re: A new emp.

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I just think to myself, why should emp planets suffer the same old shit of, we break his emp, he needs to get def, and he doesnt get def, and then they land and get to keep ships...
Honestly, it's just the drawback of EMP. If you don't like it, you can play a different race. While it's definitely worth considering changes to how the races work, I really don't see how this makes the game any more interesting.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 17:27   #19
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Re: A new emp.

I just think its a real world change to reflect how emp actually works
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 17:38   #20
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Re: A new emp.

Yes, realism is something we should definitely strive towards in an online browser game about space ships.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 19:38   #21
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Re: A new emp.

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That wasn't true in r39. 2 cath in top 100 (none in top50). It wasn't possible to become big as the emp was so weak everybody could land on you for free.
I predicted pretty much this pre-round to Appocomaster, although i didnt think it would end up that extreme. It was a problem with the stats/peoples perception, not the mechanics.

Cath are an unusual race to balance, on paper that round, they actually wasnt that bad. They had nice efficiencys and could easily attack solo. The thing is though, any decent player who wanted to go cath thought that ETD Co (all EMP) was the better option. Now you say Cath was crap, but how well did ETD Co planets do in r39? whats that you say, they was regarded as the best race?

Cath were so weak last round, as they didnt have the numbers or the decent players playing as cath. With cath, people need to think its abit over-powered in order to consider playing it.. last round, the stats for cath planets were good but no Co roiding fleet, people just didnt think they was over-powered or that ETD Co was better.

tldr; EMP wtfpwned last round, so i dont know what you're talking about.
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Unread 16 Dec 2010, 20:23   #22
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Re: A new emp.

im not saying emp was or is weak, im saying that emp should do more than freeze in combat, i think emp should be changed to disable ships in and out of combat
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 05:42   #23
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Re: A new emp.

emp should just freeze period. with balanced stats and in the hand of capable players cat always has been one of the strongest races.
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 10:22   #24
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Re: A new emp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
tldr; EMP wtfpwned last round, so i dont know what you're talking about.
just look at the stats analysis, it's written there how weak EMP was in defense. Cath couldn't keep their roids. No way you could play for value, you had to take maximum risk in attack to capitalize on XP.
You think EMP was great probably because you bashed lowbies with heavy team ups.
It takes very little to switch cath from too weak to too strong. So far only JBG managed to balance them. In R39 they were too weak.
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 11:04   #25
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Re: A new emp.

ETD Emp "wtfpwned" last round, hence why alot of the top players were ETD CO planets.
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 13:57   #26
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Re: A new emp.

If you'd have taken out the Dealer those Etd would have had significantly less of a lead, if any at all.

They were still more Cath than Cath was, though. And yes, everyone saw Cath suckage coming.

And to stay on topic - no, just no. It will give big EMP planets an even bigger advantage, and smaller ones won't benefit from it much since they'd have to lose ships in order to disable a measly 5%.
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 15:24   #27
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Re: A new emp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
just look at the stats analysis, it's written there how weak EMP was in defense. Cath couldn't keep their roids. No way you could play for value, you had to take maximum risk in attack to capitalize on XP.
You think EMP was great probably because you bashed lowbies with heavy team ups.
It takes very little to switch cath from too weak to too strong. So far only JBG managed to balance them. In R39 they were too weak.
No, as ETD Co which was all EMP was the best race/combo and dominated the top100.

The main reason Cath was so bad, is that there was so few top players playing Cath, as most people who would usually go Cath simply went ETD Co instead.

Cath were pretty balanced stat wise last round, just with the lack of a fi/co roiding fleet. With the lack of people going cath, it meant that when the cath's started to fall off at the end of the round, there werent that many in the top100 to start with.. so they got pwned.
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 16:31   #28
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Re: A new emp.

Quote:
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The main reason Cath was so bad, is that there was so few top players playing Cath...
and the worst is you really believe it. :crymeariver:
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 17:28   #29
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Re: A new emp.

im not saying emp should be emp the ships and then disable them, im saying weaken the emp and then make those ships that get emped disabled until repaired. That way people cant bash emp planets imo.
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 17:37   #30
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Re: A new emp.

Quote:
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The main reason Cath was so bad, is that there was so few top players playing Cath.
Chicken and the egg, Light.

Chicken and the egg.
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Unread 17 Dec 2010, 18:20   #31
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Re: A new emp.

Jewid - stfu about 'repairs'. That's a whole new idea that's got sweet FA to do with emp, and isn't something that is going to be added so please stop going on about it.
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Unread 18 Dec 2010, 06:06   #32
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Re: A new emp.

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
just look at the stats analysis, it's written there how weak EMP was in defense. Cath couldn't keep their roids. No way you could play for value, you had to take maximum risk in attack to capitalize on XP.
You think EMP was great probably because you bashed lowbies with heavy team ups.
It takes very little to switch cath from too weak to too strong. So far only JBG managed to balance them. In R39 they were too weak.
So your reasoning is, stats weren't balanced we need to change emp ?
its flawd in so many ways
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Unread 18 Dec 2010, 06:43   #33
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Re: A new emp.

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So your reasoning is, stats weren't balanced we need to change emp ?
its flawd in so many ways
no it's not my reasoning.
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Unread 18 Dec 2010, 07:34   #34
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Re: A new emp.

My reasoning for this thread was to propose what i thought was an intriguing tweak to the way emp works in PA, but obviously that idea was too far out for the community, let this thread die...
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Unread 18 Dec 2010, 10:41   #35
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Re: A new emp.

It wasn't "too far out", it was "too poorly thought out".
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Unread 18 Dec 2010, 11:02   #36
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Re: A new emp.

Basically, when you've got an idea.. You've got to clearly explain why it should be changed and the reasons for it. Your reasons were clearly wrong and EMP is infact fine at the moment if the stats are balanced. Infact, last round.. alot of people would class ETD EMP as being abit OP.
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Unread 18 Dec 2010, 11:38   #37
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Re: A new emp.

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alot of people would class ETD EMP as being abit OP.
nah... it's just that the best players went for Etd
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Unread 18 Dec 2010, 16:37   #38
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Re: A new emp.

best players always go for best stats
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Unread 19 Dec 2010, 01:23   #39
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Re: A new emp.

So, zik was best last round?
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Unread 20 Dec 2010, 17:44   #40
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Re: A new emp.

Rather pointless idea, it doesnt help anyone. And of course no-one thought of the abuse: support planets taking Wave 1 and emping the target fleet (even suicidal crashing), and w2-W<x> landing with less defense.

Now if you had been about improving cath, you could say that a part of the ships emped actually dies (is killed) because it can't get out of emp. That way, cath would get some killing power.

Not that i am pro that idea, i just think that would make a bit more sense.
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Unread 20 Dec 2010, 19:49   #41
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Re: A new emp.

"abuse"
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Unread 21 Dec 2010, 03:28   #42
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Re: A new emp.

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Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Rather pointless idea, it doesnt help anyone. And of course no-one thought of the abuse: support planets taking Wave 1 and emping the target fleet (even suicidal crashing), and w2-W<x> landing with less defense.

Now if you had been about improving cath, you could say that a part of the ships emped actually dies (is killed) because it can't get out of emp. That way, cath would get some killing power.

Not that i am pro that idea, i just think that would make a bit more sense.
certainly a valid point there remy Im sure you've seen your fair share of abuse in your previous role as MH

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"abuse"
still in denial I see.
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Unread 21 Dec 2010, 03:41   #43
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Re: A new emp.

mz refused to join denial, though I did invite him (I think?).
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Unread 21 Dec 2010, 10:14   #44
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Re: A new emp.

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
still in denial I see.
Just disagreement over what constitutes "abuse" and what "interesting game strategies".
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Unread 21 Dec 2010, 11:03   #45
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Re: A new emp.

Let;s rephrase it to non-intended side effects :P
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Unread 21 Dec 2010, 16:59   #46
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Re: A new emp.

Let's continue to disagree, then; non-intended is not the same as harmful or or even unwanted.
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Unread 1 Jan 2011, 18:12   #47
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Re: A new emp.

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
That wasn't true in r39. 2 cath in top 100 (none in top50). It wasn't possible to become big as the emp was so weak everybody could land on you for free.
This is kinda a farse... EMP wasnt the problem... as Etd RAPED from start to finish with it.... it was the pod classes cath was given.
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