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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 19:44   #51
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Believe me, i havent forgot about that. The two main problems in that design document which i purposly ignored were the lack of combat and the 4am attacks. I was in a rush and figuring out mechanics to fix those problems would of taken more twice as long as it would to fix every other problem.

Ive started to address the combat mechanics in my non-rushed design document and its now just trying to find a balance between defending and attacking, as no matter what i do.. ive got to keep defending possible, advantageous and maybe profitable, considering defending each other is the main driving force of socialisation in PA.

The main problem im having though, is that no matter what i do.. if i force combat and ship loss without 100% salvage, then it becames a game of chance on weither or not the defending planet has moved their fleet or not.

Im not doing anything to alter the 4am roiding at the moment except for some minor tweaks.
Very glad to hear it, good job on gathering the ideas otherwise.
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Unread 19 Sep 2010, 17:56   #52
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

P.S. I enjoy this thread. It's pretty constructive!
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Unread 19 Sep 2010, 23:12   #53
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Very glad to hear it, good job on gathering the ideas otherwise.
Not really, as i doubt i'll be able to solve the problem in a way the community would accept.

The problem is that when you take the problem down to its basic roots, its that you need your fleet to survive in this game. From the defender point of view, why would you bother leaving your fleet home where some of it dies if the attack still caps gets max cap? and the attacker will always recall if they lose more fleet than the asteroids will repay in a short space of time.

Ive seen someone mention giving attackers salvage as a possible solution but then, all it does it make defending abit harder. Defenders wont just cover it the same as they do now, if the attacker gets salvage, they will send enough defence to still cause value loss and make the attack non-profitable.

If we then go to the extreme and make 100% salvage on both sides, then you basically make defending impossible and it needs to be a 100% emp/kill to stop the roid capture. Which would ruin the whole alliance/defence mechanic.

Another possible solution is implement random fire, so no matter the defending fleet.. the attacker would take losses. This would just result in the game being luck based on weither the defending planet moved their fleet or not. If we implement it with attacker salvage, then we have the same problem as impementing attacker salvage by itself as it would just negate the random fire mechanic.

While the game remains value based, then zero-loss attacks will always be much better than taking losses and people will only take losses when its profitable (And i seriously dont want to make the game XP based).

Im open to suggestions as im struggling to find any which would actually work without creating more problems or screwing people over.

As far as the waking up at 4am situation goes. There is no solution as its not a game mechanic, its simply when the players are deciding to attack. Prelaunch is a mixed blessing in this regard, it allows players to launch attacks at times they would otherwise be offline but it re-enforces the launch at 4am mechanic. If a group of players only wanted to be online till 24:00 or 8am, then that group of players would have to launch at 24:00 or 8am, which means that theirs now less attacking at 4am which means that you dont need as many people online at 4am to defend.

I see the point of prelaunch, that in theory.. it shouldnt matter what time zone you're in and living in australia shouldnt give you a huge advantage. However, prelaunch only further compounds the problem by allowing everyone to launch at those times which makes it a greater importance to be online at those times for defense. 100% of active players now attack at 4am, when without prelaunch that number could drop to 50% (a guess), meaning you only need 50% of the people previously to be online at that time.

Lets say if we take away prelaunch and 2 major alliances alter their launch times to 23:00 and 08:00. Now, it means that anyone solo attacking at 24:00 has a higher chance of landing due to alliances already sending out def fleets (and attack fleets) and it also means that someone launching at 09:00-10:00 also has a much greater chance of landing than previously. This automatically changes the defense times from 4-7am to 23:00-11:00. A much wider gap to come online and send a defence fleet for the casual user.

If Asc and Apprime are playing casual next round.. I'd love it if they both changed their attack times to something other than the middle of the night and see what happends. Would other alliances choose to change? considering the 4am attacking is no longer flaked by everyone else? (I say Asc and Apprime, as they're the two most likely to even considering doing it).
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Last edited by Light; 19 Sep 2010 at 23:28.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 11:30   #54
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

How would people feel about the deletion of races? and instead you just choose what ships you want via the tech tree (So Steal, EMP, Cloak would still exist).
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 11:59   #55
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
How would people feel about the deletion of races? and instead you just choose what ships you want via the tech tree (So Steal, EMP, Cloak would still exist).
I think its time to do this.

Its always been a problem that cat have total emp, which is good for the start of the round, but the end round its hard for them.

People will now ask for a choice on which way you go, so choosing cloak will cancel out emp/steal, and vice versa.

I however think we could have base ships which are open to everyone (1 of every class), then each tech gives you 3 new ships. Two new attacking ships and a roiding ship.

Cloak: Fi / Co
STEAL: Fr / De
EMP: Cr / Bs
Code:
//Base
Harpy	FI	CO	FI
Dagger	CO	FI	CO
Drake	FR	DE	FR
Pegasus	DE	FR	DE
Syren	CR	BS	CR
Wyvern	BS	CR	BS
Mirage	FR	RO	-
Haunt	DE	ST	-

//cloak			
Phantom	FI	FR	CO
Banshee	CO	DE	CR
Illusion	FI	RO	-

//steal			
Thief	FR	BS	CR
Pirate	DE	FI	CO
Ironclad	DE	RO	-

//emp			
Spider	CR	FI	CO
Tarantula	CR	CO	DE
Hornet	BS	RO	-

//Heavy (not sure about this)
Dragon	BS	FR	FI
Hydra	BS	DE	CO
Demeter	BS	RO	-
Of course stats are not my strong point.

Also I would like to see a bigger increase in ratios.

FI = 32
CO = 16
FR = 8
DE = 4
CR = 2
BS = 1

So for cost of a Battleship, you can buy 32 Fighters. So if a player has 320k Fighters, another player (with same resource) could have 10k BS.

Also the big one for me would be EMP SHIELDS! Lets do away with resist and just move it to the same as armor.

Remove Damage and use Guns only.
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Last edited by MrLobster; 21 Sep 2010 at 12:07.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 12:01   #56
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
How would people feel about the deletion of races? and instead you just choose what ships you want via the tech tree (So Steal, EMP, Cloak would still exist).
As you know, I'm pro this!
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 12:07   #57
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Not really, as i doubt i'll be able to solve the problem in a way the community would accept.

The problem is that when you take the problem down to its basic roots, its that you need your fleet to survive in this game. From the defender point of view, why would you bother leaving your fleet home where some of it dies if the attack still caps gets max cap? and the attacker will always recall if they lose more fleet than the asteroids will repay in a short space of time.

Ive seen someone mention giving attackers salvage as a possible solution but then, all it does it make defending abit harder. Defenders wont just cover it the same as they do now, if the attacker gets salvage, they will send enough defence to still cause value loss and make the attack non-profitable.

If we then go to the extreme and make 100% salvage on both sides, then you basically make defending impossible and it needs to be a 100% emp/kill to stop the roid capture. Which would ruin the whole alliance/defence mechanic.

Another possible solution is implement random fire, so no matter the defending fleet.. the attacker would take losses. This would just result in the game being luck based on weither the defending planet moved their fleet or not. If we implement it with attacker salvage, then we have the same problem as impementing attacker salvage by itself as it would just negate the random fire mechanic.

While the game remains value based, then zero-loss attacks will always be much better than taking losses and people will only take losses when its profitable (And i seriously dont want to make the game XP based).

Im open to suggestions as im struggling to find any which would actually work without creating more problems or screwing people over.

As far as the waking up at 4am situation goes. There is no solution as its not a game mechanic, its simply when the players are deciding to attack. Prelaunch is a mixed blessing in this regard, it allows players to launch attacks at times they would otherwise be offline but it re-enforces the launch at 4am mechanic. If a group of players only wanted to be online till 24:00 or 8am, then that group of players would have to launch at 24:00 or 8am, which means that theirs now less attacking at 4am which means that you dont need as many people online at 4am to defend.

I see the point of prelaunch, that in theory.. it shouldnt matter what time zone you're in and living in australia shouldnt give you a huge advantage. However, prelaunch only further compounds the problem by allowing everyone to launch at those times which makes it a greater importance to be online at those times for defense. 100% of active players now attack at 4am, when without prelaunch that number could drop to 50% (a guess), meaning you only need 50% of the people previously to be online at that time.

Lets say if we take away prelaunch and 2 major alliances alter their launch times to 23:00 and 08:00. Now, it means that anyone solo attacking at 24:00 has a higher chance of landing due to alliances already sending out def fleets (and attack fleets) and it also means that someone launching at 09:00-10:00 also has a much greater chance of landing than previously. This automatically changes the defense times from 4-7am to 23:00-11:00. A much wider gap to come online and send a defence fleet for the casual user.

If Asc and Apprime are playing casual next round.. I'd love it if they both changed their attack times to something other than the middle of the night and see what happends. Would other alliances choose to change? considering the 4am attacking is no longer flaked by everyone else? (I say Asc and Apprime, as they're the two most likely to even considering doing it).
Salvage based on your losses (u get x% back of your stolen/broken ships) <- DoM style (battles accure)
XP to encourage those landings and when XP is turned as goods, u can rebuild the value loss along with the roids stolen. <- PA style (battles will accure)
Fleet morals to distract the value based playing, so it is costy to send just safe lands. <- SpM style (battles accure)

Also we can consider the cap % higher and mining % higher from stolen and owned roids to make it faster to rebuild fleet losses. Also it will still put importance to defence as you can grow fast for owning good amount of roids. In short when having roids is really profitable, it will encourage to land on those.

am at work now and dont have time to think further, but there is some keys for u to work forward
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 12:15   #58
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Converting XP to resource should be included.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 12:21   #59
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
I think its time to do this.

Its always been a problem that cat have total emp, which is good for the start of the round, but the end round its hard for them.

People will now ask for a choice on which way you go, so choosing cloak will cancel out emp/steal, and vice versa.

I however think we could have base ships which are open to everyone (1 of every class), then each tech gives you 3 new ships. Two new attacking ships and a roiding ship.

Also the big one for me would be EMP SHIELDS! Lets do away with resist and just move it to the same as armor.

Remove Damage and use Guns only.
The thing is, you've still got races and still got to balance them as you're forcing a choice which is irreversable. You've just changed the race from startup to choosing in the tech-tree.

This keeps the same problem, Xan is fi/co as you said.. so how would you balance that in the tech tree as they'd naturally get fi/co earlier.

Wouldnt it just be much better to have a mixture of ships in a variety of positions in the tech tree with no definitive choice. As the player progresses through the tech tree, they unlock ships which are better than the ships they had before. A player could choose to have some EMP, some Steal and some Cloaked, as they progress through the round they might replace some of their early EMP ships with better cloaked ships or vice versa.

The limiting factor would be that the tech-tree is bigger than the round, so a player cannot research every ship and has to prioritise. The 'best' ships at the end of the tech tree cant all be research and the player has to choose just due to time.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 12:33   #60
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
The thing is, you've still got races and still got to balance them as you're forcing a choice which is irreversable. You've just changed the race from startup to choosing in the tech-tree.

This keeps the same problem, Xan is fi/co as you said.. so how would you balance that in the tech tree as they'd naturally get fi/co earlier.

Wouldnt it just be much better to have a mixture of ships in a variety of positions in the tech tree with no definitive choice. As the player progresses through the tech tree, they unlock ships which are better than the ships they had before. A player could choose to have some EMP, some Steal and some Cloaked, as they progress through the round they might replace some of their early EMP ships with better cloaked ships or vice versa.

The limiting factor would be that the tech-tree is bigger than the round, so a player cannot research every ship and has to prioritise. The 'best' ships at the end of the tech tree cant all be research and the player has to choose just due to time.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm against locking out any units. Opening up the stats to everyone brings in more tactics. I foresee people suggesting a restriction.

The problem I see with unlocking better units than before, means those first ships you built are pretty useless.

How would the new tech be included into the "upgrading" techtree? To enable choice between the techs, you would need to have them visible at the same time, and cannot use a linear tree to open them up.

Also I was looking at really old ideas and found this from mathematician:

Quote:
currently, only 7 planets have between 3k and 4k roids, the rest is all below 3k.
there is no need for hct researches up to 10k roids.

aside from that, why not make storage facilities a construction? Let's say each one can mine from 100 roids, and store up to 1 mil resources. (e.g. with 10 of these facilities you are able to mine from 1000 roids and store up to 10 mil res). This leaves enough room for resource-whores as well as roid-fat planets, but these planets will have to sacrifice other constructions then.

ofc, constructions can be destroyed, so it is possible to cripple one's mining capabilities via sk.
So creating a silo structure is a good way to replace HCT.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 12:59   #61
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
The thing is, you've still got races and still got to balance them as you're forcing a choice which is irreversable. You've just changed the race from startup to choosing in the tech-tree.

This keeps the same problem, Xan is fi/co as you said.. so how would you balance that in the tech tree as they'd naturally get fi/co earlier.

Wouldnt it just be much better to have a mixture of ships in a variety of positions in the tech tree with no definitive choice. As the player progresses through the tech tree, they unlock ships which are better than the ships they had before. A player could choose to have some EMP, some Steal and some Cloaked, as they progress through the round they might replace some of their early EMP ships with better cloaked ships or vice versa.

The limiting factor would be that the tech-tree is bigger than the round, so a player cannot research every ship and has to prioritise. The 'best' ships at the end of the tech tree cant all be research and the player has to choose just due to time.
Increasing the length of the techtree would only result in more people chosing for small ships. not in a better balance between the different ships. imho there should be little change to the shipstats, they should just be easier to read for new players. The community build some rather good tools to see how well a ship does vs another ship. However to get an advanced ship-on-ship analysis ingame you need 2 more clicks and then you still get a giant list of how each and every ship performs against another ship.

If i were to redesign how stats are displayed i would surely make some sort of pop-up in the production screen where i can see exactly what the ships are able to take on.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 13:01   #62
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Increasing the length of the techtree would only result in more people chosing for small ships.
That only happens because the techtree is linear when it comes to hulls.

Allowing any hull to be researched, brings in more tactics.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 13:11   #63
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Increasing the length of the techtree would only result in more people chosing for small ships. not in a better balance between the different ships.
Not really, as the further down the tech tree, the better the ships are. It wouldnt just be a case of research hulls 1 and get all tier 1 ships, you have to research the actual ship. People can certainly stick on the small ships and amass them in bulk but when someone researches there hard counter, they're screwed. Constant progression of ships is much better than spamming one ship type.

Quote:
imho there should be little change to the shipstats, they should just be easier to read for new players. The community build some rather good tools to see how well a ship does vs another ship. However to get an advanced ship-on-ship analysis ingame you need 2 more clicks and then you still get a giant list of how each and every ship performs against another ship.
That really doesnt help new players, as theres masses of ships and alot of different combo's, add in the race factor and its wtf to assess the best strategy. The shipstats at the moment just force the user to pick a race at tick 0 and pick which 3-4 ships they'll spam build. Theirs no real progression and people are relatively screwed if they pick an underpowered strategy/race.

Quote:
If i were to redesign how stats are displayed i would surely make some sort of pop-up in the production screen where i can see exactly what the ships are able to take on.
Having all the numbers in the world does not make it readable for new players to determine which ships out of 50 they should build, which race to pick, and what they'll pwn.

Quote:
So creating a silo structure is a good way to replace HCT.
The population system would do that but it'd also affect the users research as well as construction, which opens up more strategy.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 13:19   #64
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
Salvage based on your losses (u get x% back of your stolen/broken ships) <- DoM style (battles accure)
I explained above that salvage does not encourage lands when its balanced properly, it just helps new players rebuild losses when they get pwned.
A % based thats high, only makes attacking much harder. A % based thats lower, makes defending harder and screws people over.

Quote:
XP to encourage those landings and when XP is turned as goods, u can rebuild the value loss along with the roids stolen. <- PA style (battles will accure)
but what would this do? If the XP to resource ratio is low, then its useless. If its high, then its just another form of salvage and complicates an already wtf XP system.

You're also making it extremly hard to defend against XP landings, if the attackers get salvage + XP + XP salvage. In some cases, they could get over 100% of their entire fleet value if the XP:Resource ratio is high. You're just creating a field of problems and not really addressing the issue that value play > XP play (and it should actually be value > XP in a game where you need value to do anything).

Quote:
Fleet morals to distract the value based playing, so it is costy to send just safe lands. <- SpM style (battles accure)
and what would fleet moral do?

Quote:
Also we can consider the cap % higher and mining % higher from stolen and owned roids to make it faster to rebuild fleet losses. Also it will still put importance to defence as you can grow fast for owning good amount of roids. In short when having roids is really profitable, it will encourage to land on those.
So, further complicating the resource system for little gain. Having roids is already profitable and is the main determining factor when deciding to land. If the roids payoff within 2-3days, then its considered an ok land. The only way to encourage more crashing, is to higher the resource rate of asteroids so that they pay off quicker but then you're going to have the consequence of the top players running away from the pack extremly early in the game.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 15:53   #65
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm against locking out any units. Opening up the stats to everyone brings in more tactics. I foresee people suggesting a restriction.
Agreed. I'm a proponent of simple linear paths, as per current PA, as opposed to a tree with a potentially very complicated structure.

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
How would the new tech be included into the "upgrading" techtree? To enable choice between the techs, you would need to have them visible at the same time, and cannot use a linear tree to open them up.
Yes, you can. Just put them at the end of it. You can either choose to allocate precious research time to unlock the most advanced ships or to spend your time researching something else.

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
The problem I see with unlocking better units than before, means those first ships you built are pretty useless.
An option could be to introduce a trading system. People who focus on researching advanced ships could trade their old ships for resources (to build better ships with), while people who focus on other research paths could acquire the old ships of other players at a lower cost than building them in the shipyard.

This would make sure people with access to advanced ships don't get stuck with underpowered ships that they don't really use any more, while people who stick with lo-tech ships will see their cost decrease as the round continues.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 16:54   #66
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Agreed. I'm a proponent of simple linear paths, as per current PA, as opposed to a tree with a potentially very complicated structure.
Its not really complicated when theirs an easy to follow tree to view. Its basically a 1+1=2 formula, which is extremly easy and not really complicated. It allows for more depth and strategy than a simple linear tree which is plain and boring.


Quote:
An option could be to introduce a trading system. People who focus on researching advanced ships could trade their old ships for resources (to build better ships with), while people who focus on other research paths could acquire the old ships of other players at a lower cost than building them in the shipyard.

This would make sure people with access to advanced ships don't get stuck with underpowered ships that they don't really use any more, while people who stick with lo-tech ships will see their cost decrease as the round continues.
It depends how you do the targetting, If you do it right.. those less advanced ships are still worthwhile as you need to protect yourself from whatever they target. The only thing is that there is now a very decent counter for them available to sections of the universe.

It'd be alot easier if we unified the eta's...

As then you could start with 3 ships with low firepower/armor which each counters the other. Maybe
Fi Kill Co
Co EMP FR
FR steals Fi
FR Pod

At this stage of the game, the player would need all three ships for defence but could prioritise two ships for attack. each attack would have a one ship vunerabilty though..
Fi/Co combo would be weak to Fi defence.
Fi/FR combo would be weak to FR defence.
Co/FR combo would be weak to Co defence.

Then the 2nd tier would be
FI EMP's CO
CO Kill's FR
FR Steals DE
DE EMP's FI

Fighters would be the most important, as they now steal and emp Co which is the ship which stops pods.
FR acts as flak as well as stealing any Fi and killing the new DE tier.
DE emp's Fi.

The main attacking fleets would be FI/CO/FR/DE, in a mixture of whatever the player wanted. All previous ships are still heavily viable but the newer tiers offering something extra to the player which is valuable.
Players could choose to build the EMP fighter ship as it offers better efficiency and adds an extra dimension to their fleet. Where they freeze (which lowers the damage of Co) and kills which inflicts some damage.
Players could choose to build the Kill Co ship, as they need to inflict damage to the FR fleet as its where the astropods are.
FR now has a ship to deal with DE's
and DE now freezes Fi ships while the previous FR ships can help steal them.


These are all made up things in my head right now but its a possible way to go which would offer choice while not rendering the previous ships useless. As the player progresses through the tree, they would unlock more classes and more ships. Possibly unlocking different classes of astropods.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 23:57   #67
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I explained above that salvage does not encourage lands when its balanced properly, it just helps new players rebuild losses when they get pwned.
A % based thats high, only makes attacking much harder. A % based thats lower, makes defending harder and screws people over.



but what would this do? If the XP to resource ratio is low, then its useless. If its high, then its just another form of salvage and complicates an already wtf XP system.

You're also making it extremly hard to defend against XP landings, if the attackers get salvage + XP + XP salvage. In some cases, they could get over 100% of their entire fleet value if the XP:Resource ratio is high. You're just creating a field of problems and not really addressing the issue that value play > XP play (and it should actually be value > XP in a game where you need value to do anything).



and what would fleet moral do?



So, further complicating the resource system for little gain. Having roids is already profitable and is the main determining factor when deciding to land. If the roids payoff within 2-3days, then its considered an ok land. The only way to encourage more crashing, is to higher the resource rate of asteroids so that they pay off quicker but then you're going to have the consequence of the top players running away from the pack extremly early in the game.
Landing for roids is cheaper with salvage included, so it does courage the continuous battles and might allow you to also land a few if the prize is tempting enough, regardless u might get owned cause of it the next day.

XP system is very easy, it courages you to attack bigger/leading players/alliances keeping the game competetive thrue the whole round. It should be bonus big enough to consider attacking a player above you between picking up the safer landing from below you. Everyone are able to find targets for what u call XP land, apart from the ones sitting on top, for them every attack again is basicly value land, which should fit them just fine. They dont need massive jumps to catch up, they want their fleet heavy to stay there on top.

The fleet moral would work pretty much the same way, couraging people to keep their morals high and not reduce it by attacking players below you. So you got lets say 100% fleet moral for starters, it decreases from targeting players below your limits and stays from targeting players above you/on your equal range. The lost moral would be needed to buy back before it gets critical and damages your own fleets. Might not be the fanciest and most imaginary way to sort battle, but it sure do work.

Balancing all these suggestions above might be harder, but its been succesfully done in competing clones, so I am sure we (read: you) can do it aswell.

We got the mining research systems to prevent too fast growth. If it happens, it will happen later in the round, when you got time to finnish researches and its also ok to find a worhy winner during the time. Remember all these suggestions above also courage and might also enforce to hitting the players on top. So this should help keep the game balanced, if it doesnt happen, the right people are most likely winning and deserving it aswell.


In short to this whole thread topics:
Basicly I am supporting any solutions to enforce/direct the players to not mess politics, to avoid noob roiding and perhaps getting some goods from helping/keeping the community alive. Also the old school people that most of the playerbase are, need some fresh challences tactical wise, if it is a different techtree, new population system that made a difference or what ever moons the solution might be, its good. Why not market the game as a challence to pro's if they dare to step in to the world of veterans, that PA as a game allready represents.

ps. allow scans for every account as a basic option true moons for example, takes away the need for scanners playing for the rest and they can actually use their skills to make the game more competetive. Thrue moons system we can create a whole new world with cov-ops. scans and what ever is slacking now, without killing the current working consepts. With a moon I am talking about a "second account" linked to your main one, that allow to produce scans, block them. collect money thrue cov-ops or collect intel, or what ever we come up with, all this to help your main planet grow/survive.

pps. by adding guides, focusing on minor user friendly issues, perhaps keep it bit logical aswell, complecity doesnt nessesary make it bad for a new joiner, more of an interesting factor.
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 09:34   #68
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
That really doesnt help new players, as theres masses of ships and alot of different combo's, add in the race factor and its wtf to assess the best strategy. The shipstats at the moment just force the user to pick a race at tick 0 and pick which 3-4 ships they'll spam build. Theirs no real progression and people are relatively screwed if they pick an underpowered strategy/race.
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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Having all the numbers in the world does not make it readable for new players to determine which ships out of 50 they should build, which race to pick, and what they'll pwn.
I never stated it would be the full solution, however just changing shipstats to less ships isn't the full solution either imho.

The problem i see in the current setup is that it will allways be better to mass one or 2 classes of ships. Given this fact i argued that instead of throwing the new player into the deep pool, there should be a display that enables a new player to make an educated choice on which ships to produce.

If a new player clicks on shipstats now all he sees is a spreadsheet with some numbers that don't say anything unless you've digged deep in the formulae, and then at the bottom of the page their is a link to see the advanced analysis where you can see how effective a ship is versus any other ship. What i argued was a way to see this effectiveness numbers before the player produces them, showing exactly what ships the ship i am about to produce targets and which ship targets the ship i am producing (and preferably the numbers they kill/need to kill it)

Another way to allow this 'education' is to implement a fleetadvisor where a new player can see in what ratio's other players(with the same race/class setup) have build ships, or have a few members from the community to adjust this setup before every round.

Imho this advisor should be implemented on every page where it tells/shows a) what you can do at the page, and b) advice on what would be best to do (based on a few questions and the setup that's allready been done on the account)
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 10:06   #69
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

If however you are really inclined on deleting ships/races i would suggest instead of taking out races, taking out classes. While having multiple classes of pods per race opens up some nice advanced tactics (faking mainly), i feel it is complicating the gameplay for new players mostly.

It might be a good idea to review the way we look at hull researches. Right now it is the same for all races (small->medium->big) no matter if they have big or small ships. I suggest reshuffling it to (basic hulls -> advance defence hulls -> advanced attack hulls) where the basic hull opens a mix of natural ships suited for both attack and basic defence, for each race(terran gets big ships, xan gets small ships etc), then the 2nd hull research opens up ships that are regularly used to defend yourself/your ally, and the third hull research opens the 2nd class of attack ships.

This makes sure every player gets an easy/allround set of ships to build rather soon, suitable for all basic tactics. And then gets additional tactics/protection opened up when additional research is done.
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 14:28   #70
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
Landing for roids is cheaper with salvage included, so it does courage the continuous battles and might allow you to also land a few if the prize is tempting enough, regardless u might get owned cause of it the next day.
The cheaper you make it to land for roids, the harder it becomes to defend. As this game is centred about defending each other, you cant just make defending extremly hard to do.

Salvage doesnt encourage any battles, as it will still be the same thing. If attackers get 20% salvage, defenders wont just cover it till theirs 200k+ value on the attacking side due to salvage.. they will defend it until the attacker is in the minus value.

Quote:
XP system is very easy, it courages you to attack bigger/leading players/alliances keeping the game competetive thrue the whole round. It should be bonus big enough to consider attacking a player above you between picking up the safer landing from below you. Everyone are able to find targets for what u call XP land, apart from the ones sitting on top, for them every attack again is basicly value land, which should fit them just fine. They dont need massive jumps to catch up, they want their fleet heavy to stay there on top.
but no experienced or active player decides targets based on XP (unless a late signup). Targets are decided on roidgain and chance of success, mainly as XP is a useless score and doesnt add anything but score.

Its also extremly beneficial even with XP to just noob pod people, as consistently getting 75 roids a night will provide you with a top50 planet (top10 maybe).

XP also encourages people to crash their fleet, which is extremly the wrong thing to do. Planetarion is played through value, you should not crash your value under any circumstances unless its the end off the round and the XP payoff is good.

Quote:
The fleet moral would work pretty much the same way, couraging people to keep their morals high and not reduce it by attacking players below you. So you got lets say 100% fleet moral for starters, it decreases from targeting players below your limits and stays from targeting players above you/on your equal range. The lost moral would be needed to buy back before it gets critical and damages your own fleets. Might not be the fanciest and most imaginary way to sort battle, but it sure do work.
Thats just creating a whole world of balancing problems and introducing a more complicated system which doesnt really add much other than an extended bash system.

Quote:
Balancing all these suggestions above might be harder, but its been succesfully done in competing clones, so I am sure we (read: you) can do it aswell.
Its a question of weither they're viable in PA, as PA has a highly evolved meta-game where everything has been analysised and the best strategys are now what we play with. We dont get any battles, simply as value > *. Introducing more score mechanics doesnt really help or it fundementally changes the way PA is which alot of the PA community would dislike.

I dont think hardly any one wants to make PA XP based rather than value based by buffed XP by the amount required to do any good.



Quote:
ps. allow scans for every account as a basic option true moons for example, takes away the need for scanners playing for the rest and they can actually use their skills to make the game more competetive. Thrue moons system we can create a whole new world with cov-ops. scans and what ever is slacking now, without killing the current working consepts. With a moon I am talking about a "second account" linked to your main one, that allow to produce scans, block them. collect money thrue cov-ops or collect intel, or what ever we come up with, all this to help your main planet grow/survive.
or you just give people basic scans at the start of the game, then allow players to research better scans later. No need for creating new accounts.
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 15:14   #71
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
It might be a good idea to review the way we look at hull researches. Right now it is the same for all races (small->medium->big) no matter if they have big or small ships. I suggest reshuffling it to (basic hulls -> advance defence hulls -> advanced attack hulls) where the basic hull opens a mix of natural ships suited for both attack and basic defence, for each race(terran gets big ships, xan gets small ships etc), then the 2nd hull research opens up ships that are regularly used to defend yourself/your ally, and the third hull research opens the 2nd class of attack ships.

This makes sure every player gets an easy/allround set of ships to build rather soon, suitable for all basic tactics. And then gets additional tactics/protection opened up when additional research is done.
This sounds good to me, u used to research the ships u wanted to use and this is good solution from between and would make quite some sense.
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 15:41   #72
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
The cheaper you make it to land for roids, the harder it becomes to defend. As this game is centred about defending each other, you cant just make defending extremly hard to do.

Salvage doesnt encourage any battles, as it will still be the same thing. If attackers get 20% salvage, defenders wont just cover it till theirs 200k+ value on the attacking side due to salvage.. they will defend it until the attacker is in the minus value.



but no experienced or active player decides targets based on XP (unless a late signup). Targets are decided on roidgain and chance of success, mainly as XP is a useless score and doesnt add anything but score.

Its also extremly beneficial even with XP to just noob pod people, as consistently getting 75 roids a night will provide you with a top50 planet (top10 maybe).

XP also encourages people to crash their fleet, which is extremly the wrong thing to do. Planetarion is played through value, you should not crash your value under any circumstances unless its the end off the round and the XP payoff is good.



Thats just creating a whole world of balancing problems and introducing a more complicated system which doesnt really add much other than an extended bash system.



Its a question of weither they're viable in PA, as PA has a highly evolved meta-game where everything has been analysised and the best strategys are now what we play with. We dont get any battles, simply as value > *. Introducing more score mechanics doesnt really help or it fundementally changes the way PA is which alot of the PA community would dislike.

I dont think hardly any one wants to make PA XP based rather than value based by buffed XP by the amount required to do any good.





or you just give people basic scans at the start of the game, then allow players to research better scans later. No need for creating new accounts.
It makes it harder to defend for the top players too and they have the roids and they will defend to protect them, when they potentially lose more than they can gain.

XP and fleet morals again make sure the ones on top gets attacked.
XP needs to be turned as goods instead of free score, thats been stated many times. Then it is benefical to collect xp in the long run. Also if the people refuce to def, u get the xp for free, loss free.

The ones on top will defend when they got most to lose and they cant get same kind of xp boosts as the people below them.

Fck your value, its pure sht approach. XP is far more benefical for the game.

XP isnt to crash fleet, when do u people get it, it is to encourage landings and encourage to attack people on top. When u crash hard enough, u cant win no more, its not away from the player crashed on, more likely he helps his alliance gain stronger position, even he would self lose some. Landings for kills! Landings to make others suffer! Get it? Landings at risk of gaining great amount of roids and xp, but making your value and fleet weaker for days.

the "new account" can be just a page as fleet or population is, its just moon related issues.
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 20:57   #73
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
It makes it harder to defend for the top players too and they have the roids and they will defend to protect them, when they potentially lose more than they can gain.
It makes it harder to defend anyone. We can certainly make PA attack centred and take away the defending portion of the game but i'd find that rather boring especially with the lack of social interaction. There has to be a balance between how easy is it to attack and how easy it is to defend, otherwise the game is either stagnated or just a game of roid swapping where people cant defend properly.

Quote:
XP and fleet morals again make sure the ones on top gets attacked.
If XP was doing its job we wouldnt need fleet morale. I certainly dont want 2 new complicated formula features to solve one problem especially if it creates major value problems.

Quote:
XP needs to be turned as goods instead of free score, thats been stated many times. Then it is benefical to collect xp in the long run. Also if the people refuce to def, u get the xp for free, loss free.
but what numbers?

If XP can be traded for resources? then its basically attacker salvage? then how do you decide how much resources?

The average land in XP doesnt yield much XP but their are occasional lands which get massive amounts. So if XP gives you score and resources, then you've opened up major problems to try and balance it. Why isnt roids and score enough?

You've also got the problem of strategys. If XP yields resources as well as score, then CR/BS rushing at the start becomes overpowered, as they always get a huge XP land, go #1 and will then also become #1 value.

Quote:
The ones on top will defend when they got most to lose and they cant get same kind of xp boosts as the people below them.
Thats already the case but the top players are usually always value players.

Quote:
Fck your value, its pure sht approach. XP is far more benefical for the game.
Value allows you to attack planets and defend. A planet without value is useless, we should not be encouraging players to crash there fleet when it isnt beneficial to do so and will probably ruin their round. Thats why PA is pure value play, XP is good in theory but it only becomes viable at the end of the round where the scoregain from crashing can outweight what you'd of gained otherwise.

Quote:
XP isnt to crash fleet, when do u people get it, it is to encourage landings and encourage to attack people on top. When u crash hard enough, u cant win no more, its not away from the player crashed on, more likely he helps his alliance gain stronger position, even he would self lose some. Landings for kills! Landings to make others suffer! Get it? Landings at risk of gaining great amount of roids and xp, but making your value and fleet weaker for days.
but what do you expect to happen when people hit top players? They're going to get defence and going to be extremly hard to roid. but the roids are worthless if they arnt repaid quickly as the chance of getting roided becomes high when they make themselves fat and lose value.

XP is regarded as useless for every player until the last tick. Until then its nothing and worthless.

Quote:
the "new account" can be just a page as fleet or population is, its just moon related issues.
or we could just have a page with covert-operations, where they do their covert-operations from. Instead of creating a moon to do covert-operations.


I agree in theory with some of what you say but its almost impossible to balance properly within PA without completly changing PA and alienating the current community. Its not as simple as just making defence harder or making attacking easier.. They both have to be balanced in order to encourage alliance play and galaxy play. Its also a reason why most DC's tend to dislike ST as it becomes a nightmare to DC all the incomings where everyone needs certain ships.

Its also not easy to encourage players to hit the top planets, when you're keeping the same formula's for roid capping. As it will always be that if you cap 50-75 roids a night from noobs, you'll be a high ranking player. People naturally go for roids which they have a chance of success hitting. Alliances currently do hit big planets, but those big planets tend to get more defence, so even when alliance members teamup to hit them, they rarely land.

Hell at the end of the game, you see 20+ fleets launching on planets and still no landing. The top planets are priority defence, especially in the later game. Encouraging newbs to launch on them, is nothing but suicide.
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 22:37   #74
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
but what numbers?

If XP can be traded for resources? then its basically attacker salvage? then how do you decide how much resources?

The average land in XP doesnt yield much XP but their are occasional lands which get massive amounts. So if XP gives you score and resources, then you've opened up major problems to try and balance it. Why isnt roids and score enough?
Example 1:
XP Gained = 2,000

Score increase is: 2,000 x 60 = 120,000

Resource equal to score: 120,000 x 100 = 12,000,000

Resource Distribution: 12,000,000 / 3 = 4,000,000 per resource.
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Unread 22 Sep 2010, 23:24   #75
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
It makes it harder to defend anyone. We can certainly make PA attack centred and take away the defending portion of the game but i'd find that rather boring especially with the lack of social interaction. There has to be a balance between how easy is it to attack and how easy it is to defend, otherwise the game is either stagnated or just a game of roid swapping where people cant defend properly.



If XP was doing its job we wouldnt need fleet morale. I certainly dont want 2 new complicated formula features to solve one problem especially if it creates major value problems.



but what numbers?

If XP can be traded for resources? then its basically attacker salvage? then how do you decide how much resources?

The average land in XP doesnt yield much XP but their are occasional lands which get massive amounts. So if XP gives you score and resources, then you've opened up major problems to try and balance it. Why isnt roids and score enough?

You've also got the problem of strategys. If XP yields resources as well as score, then CR/BS rushing at the start becomes overpowered, as they always get a huge XP land, go #1 and will then also become #1 value.



Thats already the case but the top players are usually always value players.



Value allows you to attack planets and defend. A planet without value is useless, we should not be encouraging players to crash there fleet when it isnt beneficial to do so and will probably ruin their round. Thats why PA is pure value play, XP is good in theory but it only becomes viable at the end of the round where the scoregain from crashing can outweight what you'd of gained otherwise.



but what do you expect to happen when people hit top players? They're going to get defence and going to be extremly hard to roid. but the roids are worthless if they arnt repaid quickly as the chance of getting roided becomes high when they make themselves fat and lose value.

XP is regarded as useless for every player until the last tick. Until then its nothing and worthless.



or we could just have a page with covert-operations, where they do their covert-operations from. Instead of creating a moon to do covert-operations.


I agree in theory with some of what you say but its almost impossible to balance properly within PA without completly changing PA and alienating the current community. Its not as simple as just making defence harder or making attacking easier.. They both have to be balanced in order to encourage alliance play and galaxy play. Its also a reason why most DC's tend to dislike ST as it becomes a nightmare to DC all the incomings where everyone needs certain ships.

Its also not easy to encourage players to hit the top planets, when you're keeping the same formula's for roid capping. As it will always be that if you cap 50-75 roids a night from noobs, you'll be a high ranking player. People naturally go for roids which they have a chance of success hitting. Alliances currently do hit big planets, but those big planets tend to get more defence, so even when alliance members teamup to hit them, they rarely land.

Hell at the end of the game, you see 20+ fleets launching on planets and still no landing. The top planets are priority defence, especially in the later game. Encouraging newbs to launch on them, is nothing but suicide.
If the player gets 50-75 roids by hitting a noob, he rather stays home when he is about to lose twice as many from his own attackers and if the roids produce more thats one more reason added to hold on to them.

you just self said the top players are about to get def, so they are pound to defthemselfs even the landing was supported by salvage or xp turned as money, no one has said it gives both score and resources.

the fleet morals step in when xp fails, its costy to hit the safe 50-75 roids. U pay for fleet moral versus some possible fleet loss, also smaller cap compared to hitting players on your range.

when there are enough couraging factors people atleast dare to check the defence abilitys of the top allies.

do you know why the attacks u described above doesnt land? because the game dont support to take ANY losses. Thats why we need attackers salvage, xp bonuses to make u consider landing and the defence and communication part instead increases, needs some thinking aswell, so they arent easy coverages, u cant send defences where u lose more than 100k ships, but knowing attacker wont land losing 20k which is EXPENSIVE TO REBUILD.

Defenders allready collect salvage, xp, cover from roid loss risk free compared to attacking, which is never a safe land. Also defenders have eta advantages... it wont remove defence, might make it more considered one perhaps.

I am looking for options to choose between landing or fleeing, now its really simple choise, if u lose enough u recall, because its impossible to rebuild. While u could example land for great amount of incs damaging your opposition.

Right now its damn costy to land, face an actual fleet and there are the challences to fix. Those are winning who avoid battle by share numbers, politics and having chances to focus on attacking with others having lack of motivators to challence them.

Please people open your damn eyes, there are no battles, we are cabable to fix this.
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Unread 23 Sep 2010, 09:36   #76
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Example 1:
XP Gained = 2,000

Score increase is: 2,000 x 60 = 120,000

Resource equal to score: 120,000 x 100 = 12,000,000

Resource Distribution: 12,000,000 / 3 = 4,000,000 per resource.
Ive been trying to find my planet history but cant.. I jumped to #1 on XP at the beginning of this round due to BS rushing..

I hit 3 top players and landed on 2 of them while i had hardly any value or anything.. I capped 300 roids and jumped 200k score which took me to #3.

Ontop of that, you're now saying i should of got an additional 120k value? pushing my value well ahead of anyone elses and giving me a huge value lead at the beginning of the game?

You're basically suggesting giving salvage for attackers but its dependant on how big the target is.. with a system which could give attackers a huge amount of salvage even when their is no loss?

[quote=Ave;3199718]If the player gets 50-75 roids by hitting a noob, he rather stays home when he is about to lose twice as many from his own attackers and if the roids produce more thats one more reason added to hold on to them.

So on top of the bash limit and flexibile roid cap ratio, we've got to implement a mechanic where players lose ships automatically when they hit people within their bash limit but deemed too low?

Quote:
you just self said the top players are about to get def, so they are pound to defthemselfs even the landing was supported by salvage or xp turned as money, no one has said it gives both score and resources.
but you're making the defence harder and harder. They may still get defence but simply making attacking easier doesnt help much and it really annoys the top players.

Quote:
the fleet morals step in when xp fails, its costy to hit the safe 50-75 roids. U pay for fleet moral versus some possible fleet loss, also smaller cap compared to hitting players on your range.
We already have the smaller cap which could be tweaked. Now we've got to implement ship loss?

Quote:
when there are enough couraging factors people atleast dare to check the defence abilitys of the top allies.
We've implemented multiple things now to encourage people to hit top players, none of them work. Why? As they're top players, people dont want to hit them as no-matter what is implemented, they are much less likely to land successfully.

Quote:
do you know why the attacks u described above doesnt land? because the game dont support to take ANY losses. Thats why we need attackers salvage, xp bonuses to make u consider landing and the defence and communication part instead increases, needs some thinking aswell, so they arent easy coverages, u cant send defences where u lose more than 100k ships, but knowing attacker wont land losing 20k which is EXPENSIVE TO REBUILD.
No, i'll try and explain.

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=tc5ubjgpgwxzi85

Here is a calc, what you're saying now is that if the attacker got say 200k salvage.. he would land and we would have a battle..

When reality is, if we implement salvage for attackers, the calc would look like this:

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1dfy96wusaa01dm

Alliances wont leave defence uncovered, they will adjust their defence to account for the attacker salvage. The point of defence is to make it unprofitable for the attacker, weither the attack has salvage or not.. defenders will make it unprofitable for the attacker or they wont defend and it will be uncovered.


Quote:
Please people open your damn eyes, there are no battles, we are cabable to fix this.
Here's the thing.. We've implemented:
1. Bash Limit
2. Variable Roid Cap Rates
3. XP
ontop of the fact, that attacking bigger players brings bigger rewards anyway, as they have more roids and that alliances have to take down the top players of other alliances in order to win.

Do we really need to add in XP Trade for resources, Attacker Salvage and Fleet Morale to try and solve the problem?

The reality is, the top players are top as they're good players. People dont want to hit them, as they're top players, they are going to be online and get defence, they're going to cover your attack as a priority, you're probably not going to land.

Do we really need to keep adding in more features which continue to punish the top players? simply for being top?
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Unread 23 Sep 2010, 09:47   #77
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Ive been trying to find my planet history but cant.. I jumped to #1 on XP at the beginning of this round due to BS rushing..

I hit 3 top players and landed on 2 of them while i had hardly any value or anything.. I capped 300 roids and jumped 200k score which took me to #3.

Ontop of that, you're now saying i should of got an additional 120k value? pushing my value well ahead of anyone elses and giving me a huge value lead at the beginning of the game?

You're basically suggesting giving salvage for attackers but its dependant on how big the target is.. with a system which could give attackers a huge amount of salvage even when their is no loss?
I suggesting that we replace XP with Value gain.

So instead of gaining 120k score from 2000 xp, you would gain 120k score in resources.
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Unread 23 Sep 2010, 10:55   #78
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Ive been trying to find my planet history but cant.. I jumped to #1 on XP at the beginning of this round due to BS rushing..

I hit 3 top players and landed on 2 of them while i had hardly any value or anything.. I capped 300 roids and jumped 200k score which took me to #3.

Ontop of that, you're now saying i should of got an additional 120k value? pushing my value well ahead of anyone elses and giving me a huge value lead at the beginning of the game?
No we're trying to say that instead of gaining that 200k score, which is worthless in this valuebased game, you should be able to trade in that 200k score for 200k shipvalue. And with that reward the player that dares to attack up over rewarding the player who noobraids and gets 75 consecutive roids each and every night.

While i agree with you it will make defending top players harder (as more ppl are willing to land), you shouldn't forget that in the current setup it is harder to defend versus those top players aswell. For instance this round i've seen all top 10 players hitting just above their bashlimit, where there were 8 to 10 fleets needed to defend against it. On the other hand for those players to hit the top player back they need at least 3 to 4 fleets to safely(read without losses) land, and even then he would need only 1 additional deffleet to get covered. This results in a situation where if you have not performed too well in the first 200 ticks of the roidrace you have no chance to get back into it.

If needed i can substantiate above claim with a copy of my incoming history.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Here's the thing.. We've implemented:
1. Bash Limit
2. Variable Roid Cap Rates
3. XP
ontop of the fact, that attacking bigger players brings bigger rewards anyway, as they have more roids and that alliances have to take down the top players of other alliances in order to win.

Do we really need to add in XP Trade for resources, Attacker Salvage and Fleet Morale to try and solve the problem?
And how well have those implementations helped in tackling the problems of noobraiding and the lack of incentive to allow a bit of losses?

1. Bash limits aren't effective until later in the round when the difference between the noob and the top players grow. The current bashlimit allows top players to hit over 50% of the universe up to half way the round, and with late signups being supported through the galaxy and alliance fund to attack smaller/allianceless players there is no chance for them to get into the game until around tick 800+
2. Variable roid cap is ineffective as top players can send out half (or even a third) of their fleet to players just around their bashlimit and still get way more roids then anyone on their bashlimit can.
3. Like you said yourself XP is useless score and doesn't add anything but score so it isn't worth it to sacrifice an easy land for taking a risk.

wow, that's some great implementations to help solve the problem there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
We've implemented multiple things now to encourage people to hit top players, none of them work. Why? As they're top players, people dont want to hit them as no-matter what is implemented, they are much less likely to land successfully
And why are they much less likely to land succesfully? because there is nothing to be gained except useless score...
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Unread 23 Sep 2010, 11:12   #79
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
I suggesting that we replace XP with Value gain.

So instead of gaining 120k score from 2000 xp, you would gain 120k score in resources.
I would suggest handing back the 120k score in 120k shipvalue rather than in 120k resource value.

Imho there are 2 implementations possible in this 'XP-resource-trade' system.

In implementation 1 you keep the current XP system, but you are able to trade in the XP you've build up into resources at any time in the game. Opening up deeper tactics like 'resource hiding' to keep your subsequent XP gains as high as possible.

In implementation 2 the XPscore gets traded to resources straight after battle, and rename it to 'looting gains' or 'spoils of war'. Ofcourse the target planet does not loose these resources as their resources are kept in heavily guarded resource bunkers etc, but are looted from the population of the planet.

I personally prefer implementation 1 because of the deeper tactics it enables. However, in cooperations with other adjustments that focus more on population management, implementation 2 opens up more possibilities later on in development (like killing a certain amount of the population in an attack etc)
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Unread 23 Sep 2010, 17:52   #80
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
No we're trying to say that instead of gaining that 200k score, which is worthless in this valuebased game, you should be able to trade in that 200k score for 200k shipvalue. And with that reward the player that dares to attack up over rewarding the player who noobraids and gets 75 consecutive roids each and every night.
Im really not a fan of XP at all but i'll give it more thought.

I seriously do not like your shipvalue or trade in idea though. If the player gains resources from an attack, they should get it instantly and not be hidden. Their is no sense in adding extra mechanics into the game for no real gain when it could just be given at the time of the battle.

What you're actually suggesting is a scalable attacker salvage system, where the bigger the defending planet is.. the more salvage the player would get (I know, not strictly salvage as isnt dependant on shiploss).

I would probably nerf XP or nerf the amount of resources you get from it though, as it should be a supplement to attacking, not the sole reason.

Quote:
While i agree with you it will make defending top players harder (as more ppl are willing to land), you shouldn't forget that in the current setup it is harder to defend versus those top players aswell. For instance this round i've seen all top 10 players hitting just above their bashlimit, where there were 8 to 10 fleets needed to defend against it. On the other hand for those players to hit the top player back they need at least 3 to 4 fleets to safely(read without losses) land, and even then he would need only 1 additional deffleet to get covered. This results in a situation where if you have not performed too well in the first 200 ticks of the roidrace you have no chance to get back into it.
Dont get me wrong, i understand that alot of top players get their by noob bashing.. Everyone does it, when top players do it.. it just means their isnt anyone else able to cover it with 1 fleet (while when a middle-tier person does it, a higher-tier can defend it easily).



Quote:
And how well have those implementations helped in tackling the problems of noobraiding and the lack of incentive to allow a bit of losses?

1. Bash limits aren't effective until later in the round when the difference between the noob and the top players grow. The current bashlimit allows top players to hit over 50% of the universe up to half way the round, and with late signups being supported through the galaxy and alliance fund to attack smaller/allianceless players there is no chance for them to get into the game until around tick 800+
2. Variable roid cap is ineffective as top players can send out half (or even a third) of their fleet to players just around their bashlimit and still get way more roids then anyone on their bashlimit can.
3. Like you said yourself XP is useless score and doesn't add anything but score so it isn't worth it to sacrifice an easy land for taking a risk.

wow, that's some great implementations to help solve the problem there...
That was my point, we keep adding in new features to encourage players to hit the top players and to protect the lower ranked players.. but none of those address the problem that noob bashing is alot more profitable on average than hitting big players (more so, that even though big players have a large amount of roids you could cap.. you need to teamup with more players and so share those roids, so you end up capping the same amount anyway).


Quote:
And why are they much less likely to land succesfully? because there is nothing to be gained except useless score...
They wont land if its not profitable, with the XP system giving resources.. you're faced with a problem, that some fleets may need to be covered 100% (as in 99% EMP'd/killed/both) in order to stop them landing, as if they still cap.. it could be profitable for them.

Quote:
I would suggest handing back the 120k score in 120k shipvalue rather than in 120k resource value.

Imho there are 2 implementations possible in this 'XP-resource-trade' system.

In implementation 1 you keep the current XP system, but you are able to trade in the XP you've build up into resources at any time in the game. Opening up deeper tactics like 'resource hiding' to keep your subsequent XP gains as high as possible.

In implementation 2 the XPscore gets traded to resources straight after battle, and rename it to 'looting gains' or 'spoils of war'. Ofcourse the target planet does not loose these resources as their resources are kept in heavily guarded resource bunkers etc, but are looted from the population of the planet.

I personally prefer implementation 1 because of the deeper tactics it enables. However, in cooperations with other adjustments that focus more on population management, implementation 2 opens up more possibilities later on in development (like killing a certain amount of the population in an attack etc)
There's no reason to make a system more complicated when it doesnt need to be.

If a player can hide their value but get it at any time, then you once again encourage players to pretend to be weaker than they are.. this means they get around the bash limit and would get more XP than they should. If you're going to make XP more important, you cant allow players to artificially lower their ranking to gain more. In the same way that hidding production was removed from the game as it causes too many balance problems. It also makes people not want to get to #1, as it isnt the best position to be in.. when in reality, they are #1 just hiding it.
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Unread 23 Sep 2010, 18:36   #81
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
I would probably nerf XP or nerf the amount of resources you get from it though, as it should be a supplement to attacking, not the sole reason.
well i don't know what a good figure would be for this new 'XPvalue' and i agree it should be a supplement. Using the current figures seems most natural tho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
That was my point, we keep adding in new features to encourage players to hit the top players and to protect the lower ranked players.. but none of those address the problem that noob bashing is alot more profitable on average than hitting big players (more so, that even though big players have a large amount of roids you could cap.. you need to teamup with more players and so share those roids, so you end up capping the same amount anyway).
Well now that we've established that the current features don't work we might aswell try and comeup with a new feature that does work for a change. While i think your comment is pointed mostly at the 'fleet morale' which i am not a fan of myself either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
They wont land if its not profitable, with the XP system giving resources.. you're faced with a problem, that some fleets may need to be covered 100% (as in 99% EMP'd/killed/both) in order to stop them landing, as if they still cap.. it could be profitable for them.
I agree that this results in some fleets being needed to cover fully, but in general these smaller fleets are easier(needs less def fleets) to EMP/Kill for the top players too, certainly later on in the round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
There's no reason to make a system more complicated when it doesnt need to be.

If a player can hide their value but get it at any time, then you once again encourage players to pretend to be weaker than they are.. this means they get around the bash limit and would get more XP than they should. If you're going to make XP more important, you cant allow players to artificially lower their ranking to gain more. In the same way that hidding production was removed from the game as it causes too many balance problems. It also makes people not want to get to #1, as it isnt the best position to be in.. when in reality, they are #1 just hiding it.
Ok i agree with you here so i'll drop my support to that idea... however i stick with the fact that attacking top players needs more incentive, and i feel exchanging this useless XP score into the more usable 'spoils of war' resources is a good thing to at least try.
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Unread 24 Sep 2010, 13:22   #82
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Example 1:
XP Gained = 2,000

Score increase is: 2,000 x 60 = 120,000

Resource equal to score: 120,000 x 100 = 12,000,000

Resource Distribution: 12,000,000 / 3 = 4,000,000 per resource.
So, lets look at this.. im a low ranked planet.

At the end of the round, if i hit any top player and i can still hit and cap any top player without defence.

I get 17.58k XP gain.
35160000 of each resource = 1054800 value gain.
Considering the fleet loss i'd get from hitting any top planet is around 800k value loss.

It would be a clusterf*** at the end of the round, as any rank 500-100 can launch solo on a top planet and they need defence for every single incoming or they'll lose the roids. It would be in effect, making no-one able to stop incomings from anyone, regardless of how much value they've built. A even worse version of ST stats for top players.
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Unread 25 Sep 2010, 17:31   #83
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

So, lets look at this.. im a low ranked planet.

At the end of the round, if i hit any top player and i can still hit and cap any top player without defence.

I get 17.58k XP gain. I gain 1054800 in score.
Considering the fleet loss i'd get from hitting any top planet is around 800k value loss.

It would be a clusterf*** at the end of the round, as any rank 500-100 can launch solo on a top planet and they need defence for every single incoming or they'll lose the roids. It would be in effect, making no-one able to stop incomings from anyone, regardless of how much value they've built. A even worse version of ST stats for top players.


You see this is no different. It just means more people will land (Spoils of War), rather than risk the value (Retard Crash).

But then this is a war game after all. It still takes a lot to get through.

However the main point here is that it will reduce noob bashing.
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Unread 2 Oct 2010, 23:44   #84
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
However the main point here is that it will reduce noob bashing.
Dont get me wrong, i agree a proper XP system would reduce noob bashing (by how much is up for debate).

However, the issue im having is weither PA should go further down the XP route and its also a problem of much do we want to punish players for being top?
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First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 01:32   #85
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

Does it really punish them?

or are we going to stay with the current, "NAP all and wait till the end of the round before killing things".
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 01:50   #86
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Does it really punish them?
Yes.
1. You're making it easier for players to attack them.
2. You're making it harder to defend themselves.
3. You're making it harder for them to gain more value/score compared to lower ranked planets.

Quote:
or are we going to stay with the current, "NAP all and wait till the end of the round before killing things".
I dont currently have a solution i really like. I certainly wouldnt mind if your XP-Value system was implemented, im just not sure if its the direction i'd want to go.
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First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 03:06   #87
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Re: Planetarion Redesign

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Yes.
1. You're making it easier for players to attack them.
2. You're making it harder to defend themselves.
3. You're making it harder for them to gain more value/score compared to lower ranked planets.

I dont currently have a solution i really like. I certainly wouldnt mind if your XP-Value system was implemented, im just not sure if its the direction i'd want to go.
With the current XP system, if a smaller player actually succeeds and gains a huge XP boost, they then become targets for larger "value" planets. Making the point of XP pointless.

Also by using "Spoils of War" (love that term), you may see a reduced amount of multi-fleet wave attacks. As players can at least "salvage" lost ships flying solo.
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