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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 13:39   #151
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
The channel in question is/was #helpdesk.ops
which is a channel name that, in the past, was not mentioned outside of team / ex team members

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
The channel is considered to be where the Support team and the MH Team hang out in a common place, presumably to discuss issues pertaining (within the boundaries of MH disclosure).
pertaining to? the team(s)?
Technically it's just a private support channel, but there's generally a lot of overlap between the support and MH teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
When I inquired about who was the "owner" of this channel I was informed it was Fiery, and that whilst it was "private" it was private in the sense that it was HER private channel.
Er, no. Markb now owns this channel, but it's always been the official private support team channel, no matter who has owned it. It was private in the sense that it was a no quote channel that you never mentioned anything about, on pain of being removed from the team forever. Also, since when would Fiery have a personal channel called "helpdesk.ops".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
It is not a NO Quote Channel, unlike #support or #multihunters, although that never stops any of the players quoting what is said when it suits them
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The keyword being "private".

The channel is deemed as "No Quote" and as I did not quote but paraphrased her words to indicate the type of person she is, I broke no "Rules".
Consistency?
Actually, #helpdesk.ops is the only official no quote channel out of that list.
it's expected that anything in the other two channels that is mentioned is not (ab)used. The other two are no-idle channels?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
My mentioning of the logs was not a threat, it was to add credibility to my allegations of what was said.
At no point did I state that I would publish the logs, I merely stated that I had them available, as do others that were in the channel at that time.
Your mentioning of the event was both a breach of trust and a complete misunderstanding of the two situations which you were trying to compare (in case anyone forgot the reason behind this ongoing saga). What is said in no quote channels with trusted people is completely different to publicly accessible data posted on the internet (which planet names, ruler names and galaxy names are, via the dump files).

I tried to warn you in my last post to stop posting, but you seem determined to ignore this. I thought that was the lesser of two evils.
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 15:40   #152
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

I haven't been paying attention to this thread at all, but I just thought I'd chime in as the deputy head of support, and therefore a representing manager of #helpdesk.ops and say that Appoco has the correct interpretation of both the rules of the channel and the purpose of the channel (which Judge knew, so I'm baffled at his response).
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 16:43   #153
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
tbh, i dont see why you even needed to play the game to tell that some rules were absolutly stupid with the punishment too harsh.

Id stake a guess, that the vast majority (over 80%) of closures are now due to fleet/planet/ruler name violations instead of cheating. Why hasnt any Multihunter decided to change the system where these arent closure reasons, where you can simply revoke their access to rename their fleets and rename whatever was deemed offensive.

The multihunter rules annoy me soo much, half of me thinks they cant be that stupid but then the other half thinks that they're still carrying on with these stupid rules.

Ace has had multiple rounds as head MH now and has changed absolutly nothing. Seriously, isnt their anyone with an ounce of intelligence in the MH team?

Again a correction is needed here.
Only 1 planet was closed over ruler planet name and we went over that one before.
I would like to stress again that planets dont get closed over ruler planet names to get them to join #multihunters they get a warning (wich will change starting next round, planets will be renamed by us without a warning since the rule on that has changed).

I see a lot of posts about changing the EULA.
If you go to the signup page you will see there is no more link to the EULA as that is replaced by the Jagex rules page.

There is nothing to rewrite for us as the rules pages are checked and approved by the jagex lawyers and any change we suggest will have to go via them.
Yes they checked the rules and regulations page too and approved it.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 08:20   #154
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Judge,

Actually it IS a no quote channel, it has always been, and i guess noone has seen reason to change that since i left support & MH.

The fact Fiery owns it (isnt it MarkB?), is probably because SOMEONE has to be the owner.....

Edit: oi, missed thwe last few posts, my remarks here are redundant :-)
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 09:22   #155
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace View Post
I see a lot of posts about changing the EULA.
If you go to the signup page you will see there is no more link to the EULA as that is replaced by the Jagex rules page.

There is nothing to rewrite for us as the rules pages are checked and approved by the jagex lawyers and any change we suggest will have to go via them.
Yes they checked the rules and regulations page too and approved it.
Basically, what happened there is that nothing changed until Jagex took over. Which is exactly the problem we're having here.
While you probably had good intentions towards the evolution of the MH team and the rules of it, there was nothing changed. You took people like Judge (at first I was going to say hypocrital idiots, but figured that not all of the MH team is/was like him) or Butter (was going to say narrow minded here, but blah blah) and you didn't change the procedures in a way which would make them more transparent and less subject to interpretation.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 17:30   #156
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoshay View Post
Basically, what happened there is that nothing changed until Jagex took over. Which is exactly the problem we're having here.
While you probably had good intentions towards the evolution of the MH team and the rules of it, there was nothing changed. You took people like Judge (at first I was going to say hypocrital idiots, but figured that not all of the MH team is/was like him) or Butter (was going to say narrow minded here, but blah blah) and you didn't change the procedures in a way which would make them more transparent and less subject to interpretation.
We did make changes as the rules and regulations page is 1 part of that.
Rest of the rules couldnt be changed as they needed a lawyers approval even before jagex took over.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 18:59   #157
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I'd do it if i had the opportunity to considering i dont play PA properly anymore, just signup and idle but i guess ive made too many enemys during my time playing PA to be accepted. Coupled with the fact, that i doubt the current MH's would want a new person coming in as Head MH as they'd expect that one of themselves would be picked to step up if Ace ever steps down.
Sometimes I'd like to make a Chuck Norris like roundhouse kick in your face but even I would support your claim for MH. You have proved you can be very neutral when it came to shut down 10:6 last round. Thanks for that btw.

And please do not try to spot any sarcasm in this post, there isn't any. People have seen the relations between me and Light and nevertheless she stayed objective in that case. That's what a MH should be like.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 19:17   #158
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoshay View Post
. You took people like Judge (at first I was going to say hypocrital idiots, but figured that not all of the MH team is/was like him) or Butter (was going to say narrow minded here, but blah blah) and you didn't change the procedures in a way which would make them more transparent and less subject to interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace View Post
We did make changes as the rules and regulations page is 1 part of that.
Rest of the rules couldnt be changed as they needed a lawyers approval even before jagex took over.
However as the MH hunter gaffer, Ace would you be in charge of ensuring consistency of your MH staff in following procedure?
Would you say that they have been consistent following procedure?
Whilst I've nothing personal against yourself or the MH team (thanks for doing the thankless role in PA funnily enough)... Are the MH team working to the best of their abilities and are they the best people for the job?

I look forward to your reply
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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 10:22   #159
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

If they let me be a MH and run my wolves, i'd do it, but thats never going to happen because of claims of conflict of interest that would occur.

I love my alliance, yeah yeah you can all say why bother its a pile of bleep now, and i'm not prepared to leave it to go do something i know i have the patience and intregrity to do, my point being, how many others out there have the same feeling ?

You can ask for replacements as much as you want, but those people volunteer to walk away from things they care about to do it, how many of you are prepared to do that, its never been a simple case of replace and it never will be.
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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 10:49   #160
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
claims of conflict of interest that would occur.
For some reason it always does happen, and often with a good argument to back the claim up. Sometimes, maybe, these people would need to keep themselves further away from the metagame and alliance politics.
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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 10:56   #161
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace View Post
Again a correction is needed here.
Only 1 planet was closed over ruler planet name and we went over that one before.
Only one planet ever

Quote:
I would like to stress again that planets dont get closed over ruler planet names to get them to join #multihunters they get a warning (wich will change starting next round, planets will be renamed by us without a warning since the rule on that has changed).
This is the thing, 'starting next round'. The question remains that it should of been changed ages ago and not took multiple threads flaming multihunters for it to happen.

Quote:
I see a lot of posts about changing the EULA.
If you go to the signup page you will see there is no more link to the EULA as that is replaced by the Jagex rules page.
Its not really about the EULA, the EULA basically gives the admin team to close any account for almost any reason. Its the procedures you use to enforce the EULA which we want changed.

Quote:
There is nothing to rewrite for us as the rules pages are checked and approved by the jagex lawyers and any change we suggest will have to go via them.
Yes they checked the rules and regulations page too and approved it.
I'd be fairly certain that you dont need lawyer approval if you decide not to close accounts but instead warn them. Whats someone going to sue you for? They should of closed my account when i broke the EULA but instead they let me off with a warning? lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace View Post
We did make changes as the rules and regulations page is 1 part of that.
Rest of the rules couldnt be changed as they needed a lawyers approval even before jagex took over.
Im fairly confident that hardly any (if any) planetarion player even knew about that rules and regulations page before it was pasted in here. Also, you didnt even follow it
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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 11:21   #162
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

For shits'n giggles

Why def was hardcoded:
http://pastebin.com/9EwhJBc6

r35 complaint:
http://pastebin.com/w1wKvduz (referred to it in r37 below)

MHs finest in r37:
http://pastebin.com/xp7tiGCL
http://pastebin.com/F7Kn3s90
http://pastebin.com/p4epdgee

Not really sure if i got it all but you get the point. Made retiring easy!
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Last edited by HaNzI; 18 Sep 2010 at 13:15. Reason: missed parts of the appoco log
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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 13:40   #163
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace View Post
We did make changes as the rules and regulations page is 1 part of that.
Rest of the rules couldnt be changed as they needed a lawyers approval even before jagex took over.
lawyers approval?

there are no money or prizes involved, except from the entry fee, so you can do whatever you want. If people dont like your changes they will leave the game. Its called running a business.
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Unread 19 Sep 2010, 17:54   #164
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Those were some of the most boring logs I've read, dude.
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Unread 19 Sep 2010, 22:45   #165
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Those were some of the most boring logs I've read, dude.
If i had just written "Yeah, the MHs seem to be undecisive and making it hard for active players to predict how they will be treated", you would be the first to bitch and whine while asking to support it with logs.
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Unread 19 Sep 2010, 22:58   #166
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Ive always hated the support rule and i completly hate defence being hard-coded.

Why does the game restrist the social aspect? when its one of the most important and fun bits of the game. Hard-coded def means that players stick inside their alliances and dont need or want to talk outside of their alliances.

The game should be encouraging every player to talk to their galaxy (it does), their cluster, and other alliances members. If a player is well liked in the universe and has actually reached out and talked to other people, why cant he get help from them and have an advantage over someone who's only stayed inside their alliance chan all round?

The only time the support planet rule should be enforced is if a planet has signed up with only intention of playing for another player. Weither through allow themselves to be roided, farmed for ships, or crashing on them for salvage.
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Unread 20 Sep 2010, 08:16   #167
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Ive always hated the support rule and i completly hate defence being hard-coded.

The only time the support planet rule should be enforced is if a planet has signed up with only intention of playing for another player. Weither through allow themselves to be roided, farmed for ships, or crashing on them for salvage.
What about if an alliance gets over another 40+ people say who dont usally play the game or have previously played and no longer take part, signup, build one ship in mass, remain outside of tag and then of course defend them 24/7 allowing the players inside of the tag (the real players) to use their fleets more effictively to grow then to keep having to defend other members of the allie (as these flak planets are doing it) You would see that as fair?

I admit myself i hated the rule, but it had to be implemented becuase of the reason i just described above. If alliances/community members keep trying to avoid limits and rules then other crappy rules have to be implemented/enforced. I dislike it been hardcoded in, but the community asked for this as they didnt like how the MHs were hunting (ie claimed biase)
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Unread 20 Sep 2010, 09:32   #168
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
What about if an alliance gets over another 40+ people say who dont usally play the game or have previously played and no longer take part, signup, build one ship in mass, remain outside of tag and then of course defend them 24/7 allowing the players inside of the tag (the real players) to use their fleets more effictively to grow then to keep having to defend other members of the allie (as these flak planets are doing it) You would see that as fair?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
The only time the support planet rule should be enforced is if a planet has signed up with only intention of playing for another player. Weither through allow themselves to be roided, farmed for ships, or crashing on them for salvage.
Or, let's say, simply build up a few hundred roids, a bunch of refineries, and consistently donate resources to an alliance/community with no intent of doing anything else over the round. Does it have to be 40+? Are Section the only ones actually punished by this rule? How about 10+ dedicated donators/out of tag defenders?

One could argue, that, building a ship and defending 24/7 is more of an effort to actually play the game than building a planet, and logging in once a week to donate all the resources available to a fund of an alliance. The support planet rule is well too vague and has always been enforced from very subjective and often arguably biased views. It allows the multihunters an excessive amount of interpretation, personal preference, and thus preferential treatment.

One multihunter might say that only building ships to escort/defend with counts as support planets. The next round, the second multihunter might say that also setting up resource donation planets counts as support too. The round after neither might. Then, on the fourth round, a different (or even the same) multihunter could decide that crashing for salvage is also supporting and against the rules. Unpredictable, not very transparent, and very much too focused on the hair day of the rules enforcement.

Claiming bias in multihunter activity isn't anything new and has to do with the no-negotiation no-disclosure terms. High profile people get treaten very different, according to their reputations. If a multihunter "knows you", he might simply slap closure on your planet for "false sign up details" or a reason so so. There is no "player treaten as player", but there is "this evil guy treaten as this evil guy", and "this good guy treaten as this good guy". The support planet rule is a testimony to this. And the fact that it was originally implemented mid-round is a further nail to the case.
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Unread 20 Sep 2010, 17:12   #169
Light
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Re: Replace the incompetent MH staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
What about if an alliance gets over another 40+ people say who dont usally play the game or have previously played and no longer take part, signup, build one ship in mass, remain outside of tag and then of course defend them 24/7 allowing the players inside of the tag (the real players) to use their fleets more effictively to grow then to keep having to defend other members of the allie (as these flak planets are doing it) You would see that as fair?

I admit myself i hated the rule, but it had to be implemented becuase of the reason i just described above. If alliances/community members keep trying to avoid limits and rules then other crappy rules have to be implemented/enforced. I dislike it been hardcoded in, but the community asked for this as they didnt like how the MHs were hunting (ie claimed biase)
See, this is the reason though.. we've ended up with a game which greatest strength is its community and social interaction which encourages players to only talk and communicate with people inside their alliance or galaxy. Theirs no reason or advantage now for players to talk outside of their alliance and people cant go and help who they want to.

The problem you just showed, was just due to the alliance tag limit. Its also been shown time and time again, that the alliance tag limit doesnt encourage more competitive rounds as players simply block in order to get the number advantage now rather than recruiting. The alliance member limit should be enforced by the community itself rather than the game, where if one alliance decides to over-recruit, then the rest of the alliances in the game are more likely to block up and hit them as soon as possible. The alliance tag limit should only exist to stop one alliance taking a huge portion of the community rather than taking slightly more.

Infact, now we've got a smaller community.. It would make more sense to delete the tag limit, as we've now got fewer people willing to HC/BC/DC alliances (to a decent standard) and it would allow more players to join top alliances which means that more people are involved in the round rather than taking a backseat.
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Last edited by Light; 20 Sep 2010 at 18:37.
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